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Any programs expanding with July 2021 PGY2 spots?

medgator

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No idea, but this would be a good thread for publicly naming and shaming them.

Pretty sure one of the bottom 50% tier of programs will have a spot open by next July.... Look through the forums to figure out who they are and keep in touch with their PDs. If you passed the USMLE and still have a pulse you will get a spot
 
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Radonc90

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Below is the ARRO Directory from 2015. You can see all the programs in the USA.

As much as I love this field of radonc, I currently have mixed feeling about this field.
The job market is NOT getting easier (hypoFx, indications for RT down, pandemic lasting how long...etc.).

While I admire you for jumping ship from diagrad to radonc, you may want to research your options.

Nothing worse than doing 4 years of residency only to work for GrubHub or Uber (no joke)...
Some (or many) Lufthansa airlines pilots are driving Uber as we speak...
 
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RickyScott

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Below is the ARRO Directory from 2015. You can see all the programs in the USA.

As much as I love this field of radonc, I currently have mixed feeling about this field.
The job market is NOT getting easier (hypoFx, indications for RT down, pandemic lasting how long...etc.).

While I admire you for jumping ship from diagrad to radonc, you may want to research your options.

Nothing worse than doing 4 years of residency only to work for GrubHub or Uber (no joke)...
Some (or many) Lufthansa airlines pilots are driving Uber as we speak...
I think some have an internal narrative that if they put a lot of effort into what they love, a special destiny must await them, the math be damned.
 

elementaryschooleconomics

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I would be extremely cautious about trying to join a program that expands/went unfilled. There's a reason why these programs had a tough time matching in the setting of declining applicant quality. They are not very good programs (poor training, small, new, very little alumni, no name recognition). If you can get into a top 15 program then rad onc MAY be worth it but otherwise, I would be scared to jump ship or even apply.

good places include MDA, MSK, Harvard, Yale, Penn, Hopkins, Duke, WashU, UMich, Cleveland clinic, Uchicago, Stanford, UCSF, Mayo, Uwisconsin, UFlorida
 
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I would be extremely cautious about trying to join a program that expands/went unfilled. There's a reason why these programs had a tough time matching in the setting of declining applicant quality. They are not very good programs (poor training, small, new, very little alumni, no name recognition). If you can get into a top 15 program then rad onc MAY be worth it but otherwise, I would be scared to jump ship or even apply.

good places include MDA, MSK, Harvard, Yale, Penn, Hopkins, Duke, WashU, UMich, Cleveland clinic, Uchicago, Stanford, UCSF, Mayo

UF and Wisconsin belong in this list too. Just as a warning, UChicago has some...cultural problems. To be fair a lot of other programs on this list have cultural problems too but make up for it in other ways.
 

scarbrtj

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I would be extremely cautious about trying to join a program that expands/went unfilled. There's a reason why these programs had a tough time matching in the setting of declining applicant quality. They are not very good programs (poor training, small, new, very little alumni, no name recognition). If you can get into a top 15 program then rad onc MAY be worth it but otherwise, I would be scared to jump ship or even apply.

good places include MDA, MSK, Harvard, Yale, Penn, Hopkins, Duke, WashU, UMich, Cleveland clinic, Uchicago, Stanford, UCSF, Mayo, Uwisconsin, UFlorida
I saw where the Duke grads went for work this year. The MD/PhD is going to a NC town hospital with sub-5000 population. One heading clear cross country going to Pacific NW. One staying at the academic satellite. Somehow it felt encouraging and tenuous all at the same time.
 
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medgator

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I would be extremely cautious about trying to join a program that expands/went unfilled. There's a reason why these programs had a tough time matching in the setting of declining applicant quality. They are not very good programs (poor training, small, new, very little alumni, no name recognition). If you can get into a top 15 program then rad onc MAY be worth it but otherwise, I would be scared to jump ship or even apply.

good places include MDA, MSK, Harvard, Yale, Penn, Hopkins, Duke, WashU, UMich, Cleveland clinic, Uchicago, Stanford, UCSF, Mayo, Uwisconsin, UFlorida
More programs than that with good training and alumni network imo but agree at least half are probably not worth going to at this point
 

elementaryschooleconomics

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I saw where the Duke grads went for work this year. The MD/PhD is going to a NC town hospital with sub-5000 population. One heading clear cross country going to Pacific NW. One staying at the academic satellite. Somehow it felt encouraging and tenuous all at the same time.

I saw that as well. My assumption was that was consistent with their goals, but maybe I'm way off. I know several recent grads from the "top" places listed in this thread who went to places that, at first blush, seem meh, but I know they were their top job choice.
 
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Radonc90

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One of my patients is a priest.
Years of schooling in Theology, PhD in Theology.
His salary at local church: $35,000/yr.
Admittedly, his housing is paid for by the church.
But he has to pay for his leased car, and meals.
At least he knew what he signed up for, and he seems....haaaaaappy...

I am afraid this field radonc is turning into priesthood lol...
 
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elementaryschooleconomics

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One of my patients is a priest.
Years of schooling in Theology, PhD in Theology.
His salary at local church: $35,000/yr.
Admittedly, his housing is paid for by the church.
But he has to pay for his leased car, and meals.
At least he knew what he signed up for, and he seems....haaaaaappy...

I am afraid this field radonc is turning into priesthood lol...

What at great analogy.

At the end of the day, no one can claim torching malignant cells deep inside a body with the harnessed power of the universe isn't cool.

All hail, Lords of Gamma.
 

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I saw where the Duke grads went for work this year. The MD/PhD is going to a NC town hospital with sub-5000 population. One heading clear cross country going to Pacific NW. One staying at the academic satellite. Somehow it felt encouraging and tenuous all at the same time.
How is this encouraging? 10 years ago none of us would have sniffed these kind of positions, even coming from a bad program.
 
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Gfunk6

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I am afraid this field radonc is turning into priesthood lol...

This is not a fair analogy. The priest may have taken a vow of poverty but he will be rewarded for eternity in the afterlife. For Rad Onc, there is no such optimism . . . ;)
 
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fiji128

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I got this thing from Doximity the other day about my med school class that was listing where everyone practices. Probably 85% of the class ended up in cities like nyc, LA, Dallas, Chicago, Nashville ect... Those that ended up rural I know wanted to be rural since med school. But all of us that went Rad Onc are also in small towns/rural areas. This is the reality of the specialty and the career opportunities that await.

Love this from above, totally on point.

I am afraid this field radonc is turning into priesthood lol...
 

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I got this thing from Doximity the other day about my med school class that was listing where everyone practices. Probably 85% of the class ended up in cities like nyc, LA, Dallas, Chicago, Nashville ect... Those that ended up rural I know wanted to be rural since med school. But all of us that went Rad Onc are also in small towns/rural areas. This is the reality of the specialty and the career opportunities that await.

Love this from above, totally on point.

I am afraid this field radonc is turning into priesthood lol...
If you are forced into taking a job in an exploitative practice where you are forced to overturilize xrt, it is anything but noble. Working for the guy in Irvine is probably not making the world a better place.
 
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scarbrtj

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I saw where the Duke grads went for work this year. The MD/PhD is going to a NC town hospital with sub-5000 population. One heading clear cross country going to Pacific NW. One staying at the academic satellite. Somehow it felt encouraging and tenuous all at the same time.
Logged in and see a bunch 'o messages in my inbox. I hit a bit of a nerve. Which was not my intention. However sometimes it's tough to be vague and specific at the same time. I lean toward vague, but occasionally vague won't do. So can I state this broadly, and vaguely, without aiming it in any specific location? Let me try...

If you're young and want to practice medicine in a rural location and not be in academics, I would ordinarily suggest not spending years on getting a PhD along with one's MD, and also not to choose a very niche-y, tech-beholden, "tertiary referral" specialty to practice such as rad onc... but you know what? It looks like some people did choose that, and that's just fine. That is wonderful, even. Vinay Prasad has a med onc on his podcast this week who's giving up being a med onc and doing a different job. Having a job is the main thing. It's just good to have a job nowadays.
 
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thecarbonionangle

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Logged in and see a bunch 'o messages in my inbox. I hit a bit of a nerve. Which was not my intention. However sometimes it's tough to be vague and specific at the same time. I lean toward vague, but occasionally vague won't do. So can I state this broadly, and vaguely, without aiming it in any specific location? Let me try...

If you're young and want to practice medicine in a rural location and not be in academics, I would ordinarily suggest not spending years on getting a PhD along with one's MD, and also not to choose a very niche-y, tech-beholden, "tertiary referral" specialty to practice such as rad onc... but you know what? It looks like some people did choose that, and that's just fine. That is wonderful, even. Vinay Prasad has a med onc on his podcast this week who's giving up being a med onc and doing a different job. Having a job is the main thing. It's just good to have a job nowadays.

people hate when you speak truth on here. Keep fighting the good fight
 
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scarbrtj

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people hate when you speak truth on here. Keep fighting the good fight
True. But I think the days of needing a PhD (or master's) as price of entry to a radiation oncology residency need to be over though. It's elitism and maybe causing people to waste life years needlessly. The price of entry to rad onc needs to be purely passion to be a rad onc (I knew the four fundamental forces probably from age 12)... and entry should only be granted by those who have HIGH confidence that a job will await on the other side.
 
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Ray D. Ayshun

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True. But I think the days of needing a PhD (or master's) as price of entry to a radiation oncology residency need to be over though. It's elitism and maybe causing people to waste life years needlessly. The price of entry to rad onc needs to be purely passion to be a rad onc (I knew the four fundamental forces probably from age 12)... and entry should only be granted by those who have HIGH confidence that a job will await on the other side.
Seems incongruous to say "waste life years needlessly" and "purely passion to be a radonc." Like a Roy Hobbs type?
 
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thecarbonionangle

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True. But I think the days of needing a PhD (or master's) as price of entry to a radiation oncology residency need to be over though. It's elitism and maybe causing people to waste life years needlessly. The price of entry to rad onc needs to be purely passion to be a rad onc (I knew the four fundamental forces probably from age 12)... and entry should only be granted by those who have HIGH confidence that a job will await on the other side.

imagine doing a PhD and ending up in a middle of nowhere place. It is a very useless degree in our field. these are the sad realities of RO these days. Nobody should be going into this field unless you can go to a top 15 place. It may not even be enough to go to a top 30 place.
 

elementaryschooleconomics

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True. But I think the days of needing a PhD (or master's) as price of entry to a radiation oncology residency need to be over though. It's elitism and maybe causing people to waste life years needlessly. The price of entry to rad onc needs to be purely passion to be a rad onc (I knew the four fundamental forces probably from age 12)... and entry should only be granted by those who have HIGH confidence that a job will await on the other side.

As someone who was introduced to the field when it was super competitive, and who also matched at its apex:

Having a PhD was a huge factor in my decision to pursue Radiation Oncology. It was also (one of) my ticket(s) into a Brand Name department. When I was deciding between specialties as a medical student, I definitely had the thought process of "well, if I don't run my own lab, AND I don't go into RadOnc, was the PhD worth it". I'm not saying that thought process was right or wrong - but as a medical student, I was definitely given the impression that to match into a top place for RadOnc, a PhD was almost necessary if you didn't have some sort of "in"/special connection.

This has been talked about a lot on SDN and I've also directly asked PDs in real life but - the "problem" with RadOnc over the last ~15 years was that EVERYONE was amazing. 6-7 years ago I was told that the top 25-35% of applicants were virtually indistinguishable and that very small things tipped programs either way into interviewing/not interviewing (once you made the interview, at least, whether or not you were a weirdo could be mostly evaluated). A PhD could be one of those things that got you in the door.

I totally agree with @scarbrtj though - this shouldn't be the case! The reality is that academic output is a key metric in medicine and you can use the PhD to set yourself apart, and this has almost been necessary in RadOnc from 2002-2018 or so.

Honest prediction: for the next few years (2021, 2022, maybe 2023) as the last of the people who matched before the bottom fell out graduates residency, there will probably be a slew of MD-PhD folks who go into "wtf" jobs - and I would bet they were planning on doing those jobs from the beginning.

(the poor kid who started this thread asking about open positions is now like - who are these people)
 
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Bottom line, can’t make much of an assumption based on 3 residents, but I can tell you that 10 years ago, duke residents would typically be joining an academic center at the main campus or a well known desirable private practice. Just one data point, but none of the 3 went that way.
 
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scarbrtj

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Bottom line, can’t make much of an assumption based on 3 residents, but I can tell you that 10 years ago, duke residents would typically be joining an academic center at the main campus or a well known desirable private practice. Just one data point, but none of the 3 went that way.
When I interviewed at Duke-like places, I was told by chairs “We don’t train for private practice.” And academics has been the employment pool buttressing rad onc employment for years. Now we see most big name programs sending most grads into hard private practice? Man those jobs are rare. The employment pool may be turning into one of those Nat Geo specials where the waterbed dries up and the crocs and hippos get locked in deadly battle in their own filth. I think that’s where carbonion got his avatar from.
 
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metallica81788

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Bottom line, can’t make much of an assumption based on 3 residents

Correct. Just like you can't make an assumption about getting in a job in a low-to-medium desirability location. If that job was recently filled by someone who plans to stay or they're simply not hiring, it doesn't matter whether 10 people or 1 person wants to work there - it's not open. Timing and knowing people that matter where you want to be are everything.
 
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thecarbonionangle

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When I interviewed at Duke-like places, I was told by chairs “We don’t train for private practice.” And academics has been the employment pool buttressing rad onc employment for years. Now we see most big name programs sending most grads into hard private practice? Man those jobs are rare. The employment pool may be turning into one of those Nat Geo specials where the waterbed dries up and the crocs and hippos get locked in deadly battle in their own filth. I think that’s where carbonion got his avatar from.

you’re the only one to have shown the understanding of my spirit animal sdn persona. <3

DRAIN THE SWAMP. Take the hippos!
 
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scarbrtj

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Timing and knowing people that matter where you want to be are everything
This is a Blanche DuBois, I’ve-always-depended-on-the-kindness-of-strangers approach to finding a job. There has always been a big element of this in rad onc job-finding. Somewhat discomforting.
 
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BobbyHeenan

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If you think radiation oncology as a field is training too many residents, take a look at any graduate field of study. Addressing Biomedical Science’s PhD Problem
Also a 5,000 person town in NC can't be any worse than a 10,000 person town in Alabama can it?

There is a major problem with this in all kinds of fields. Eric Weinstein has called it The Embedded Growth Obligation.

" An embedded growth obligation is how fast a structure has to grow in order to maintain its honest positions. "

" Weinstein points out that many professions had “embedded growth obligations.” For example, in the 1960s, universities expected exponential growth, so they set up graduate programs that produced too many Ph.D’s. Institutions that function this way (such as law firms where exponential growth would allow new attorneys to have an easy path to make partner) are going to cause great social friction. "

How can you expect one "mentor/program" to graduate multiple PhD's each year and at some point not expect there to problems with jobs for these people? At some point you reach a finite limit to how many PhD's in biomedical science the country can support....unless you have a continually growing need for them. BUt that's the embedded obligation part - the whole model is built on a continual growth of demand for such PhD's...but what happens when that growth isn't there? There is asymmetry in the benefit of training more PhD's as well...those that determine the number/goal of PhD program expansion have all the benefit, and none of the detriment.

May also be other forces at play as well.
 
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RickyScott

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There is a major problem with this in all kinds of fields. Eric Weinstein has called it The Embedded Growth Obligation.

" An embedded growth obligation is how fast a structure has to grow in order to maintain its honest positions. "

" Weinstein points out that many professions had “embedded growth obligations.” For example, in the 1960s, universities expected exponential growth, so they set up graduate programs that produced too many Ph.D’s. Institutions that function this way (such as law firms where exponential growth would allow new attorneys to have an easy path to make partner) are going to cause great social friction. "

How can you expect one "mentor/program" to graduate multiple PhD's each year and at some point not expect there to problems with jobs for these people? At some point you reach a finite limit to how many PhD's in biomedical science the country can support....unless you have a continually growing need for them. BUt that's the embedded obligation part - the whole model is built on a continual growth of demand for such PhD's...but what happens when that growth isn't there? There is asymmetry in the benefit of training more PhD's as well...those that determine the number/goal of PhD program expansion have all the benefit, and none of the detriment.

May also be other forces at play as well.
This is such an important point. After college, I considered a PhD program, but when i saw how few post docs from one of the best institutions in world ended up in legitImage academic settings, including the smartest person I ever met- rivals scarbtj- that was a no go. Today post docs/ basic sciences are overwhelmingly foreigners, because Americans see the whole system as a raw deal, with majority of science phds relegated into endless postdocs, and insecure staff positions, or teaching in community college. (Reminds me of psychology at work In pyramidal structure of crack gang in freakonomics)

in medicine, however, you have alternatives, plenty of great specialties that offer geographic flexibility and good reimbursement.No one was born to be a radonc, and the fact that we are surrounded by great alternative specialties, really makes me question the intelligence of an applicant.
 
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scarbrtj

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This is such an important point. After college, I considered a PhD program, but when i saw how few post docs from one of the best institutions in world ended up in legitImage academic settings, including the smartest person I ever met- rivals scarbtj- that was a no go. Today post docs/ basic sciences are overwhelmingly foreigners, because Americans see the whole system as a raw deal, with majority of science phds relegated into endless postdocs, and insecure staff positions, or teaching in community college. (Reminds me of psychology at work In pyramidal structure of crack gang in freakonomics)

in medicine, however, you have alternatives, plenty of great specialties that offer geographic flexibility and good reimbursement.No one was born to be a radonc, and the fact that we are surrounded by great alternative specialties, really makes me question the intelligence of an applicant.
Those guys at top in the crack economy were pulling in rad onc level salaries as I recall. I see where CRNAs are making $300k plus a year now, 4 day a week work. Just got an email for med onc locums at $14K/week. Anyways... crack, ketamine, or anthracycline... lots of ways to make a buck out there in “medicine” for smart hard working folks!
 

KHE88

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This is such an important point. After college, I considered a PhD program, but when i saw how few post docs from one of the best institutions in world ended up in legitImage academic settings, including the smartest person I ever met- rivals scarbtj- that was a no go. Today post docs/ basic sciences are overwhelmingly foreigners, because Americans see the whole system as a raw deal, with majority of science phds relegated into endless postdocs, and insecure staff positions, or teaching in community college. (Reminds me of psychology at work In pyramidal structure of crack gang in freakonomics)

in medicine, however, you have alternatives, plenty of great specialties that offer geographic flexibility and good reimbursement.No one was born to be a radonc, and the fact that we are surrounded by great alternative specialties, really makes me question the intelligence of an applicant.

PhD programs in the sciences are exploitative and borderline scams.
Hmm, lets see. You can spend a decade of your life slaving away in the bubble of academia and come out and pull together 30k/year in your early 30s
Or you can go to a 2 year community college program in nursing, or some other sort of assistant program in the allied health professions, start in the $30/hr range, do some easy online "masters" course and be making near $100k by your mid 20s for relatively easy work you can get a job anywhere in.

Or more likely, if you've got the chops to make it in a PhD program in the sciences, you'll probably do just fine in medicine, law, or finance with the same amount of effort. Just saying, why would anybody put forth the effort to get a PhD only to spend way longer studying and end up making far less than the C-students in high school who went to vocational health programs?
 
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RickyScott

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PhD programs in the sciences are exploitative and borderline scams.
Hmm, lets see. You can spend a decade of your life slaving away in the bubble of academia and come out and pull together 30k/year in your early 30s
Or you can go to a 2 year community college program in nursing, or some other sort of assistant program in the allied health professions, start in the $30/hr range, do some easy online "masters" course and be making near $100k by your mid 20s for relatively easy work you can get a job anywhere in.

Or more likely, if you've got the chops to make it in a PhD program in the sciences, you'll probably do just fine in medicine, law, or finance with the same amount of effort. Just saying, why would anybody put forth the effort to get a PhD only to spend way longer studying and end up making far less than the C-students in high school who went to vocational health programs?
It is sickening to see this as a model for radonc! This is where the unrealistic and illogically positive assumptions about having a special destiny Cloud thinking like in the freakonomics crack gang. If you are determined to become a research scientist, you have no alternative to this model in other sciences. In medicine, you have some very compelling alternative specialties (like medonc) which will leave radonc with some questionable applicants.
 
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So if crack dealing is really the most dangerous job in America, and it pays less than minimum wage, why on Earth would anyone take such a job? Well, for the same reason a pretty Wisconsin farm girl moves to Hollywood. For the same reason that a high school quarterback wakes up at 5 a.m. to lift weights.

They all want to succeed in an extremely competitive field in which, if you reach the top, you are paid a fortune (to say nothing of the attendant glory and power). But in each of these glamour professions, the same problem exists: A lot of people are competing in what is essentially a tournament.

Earning big money in J. T.'s crack gang wasn’t much more likely than the Wisconsin farm girl becoming a movie star or the high school quarterback playing in the NFL. But criminals, like everyone else, respond to incentives.
 
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thecarbonionangle

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the comparison is very adequate. Just like the terrible postdocs slave labour wages in PhD academia with no path to anything, we have all met or heard about poor soul “lifelong post docs”. It is no surprise some chairmen describe this as “good living”. These spots continue to fill with warm body foreigners who can use a P100 and do a western. Rad onc spots will continue to fill with any warm body that is willing to do the work, and the waters are replete with these warm fat catfish. Little do we know, but we are all in a queue in the menu for the fish fry.
 
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the comparison is very adequate. Just like the terrible postdocs slave labour wages in PhD academia with no path to anything, we have all met or heard about poor soul “lifelong post docs”. It is no surprise some chairmen describe this as “good living”. These spots continue to fill with warm body foreigners who can use a P100 and do a western. Rad onc spots will continue to fill with any warm body that is willing to do the work, and the waters are replete with these warm fat catfish. Little do we know, but we are all in a queue in the menu for the fish fry.
Sounds like Ralph Ws dream at U Chicago. He said as much about lowering radonc salaries to achieve it
 
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RickyScott

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Sounds like Ralph Ws dream at U Chicago. He said as much about lowering radonc salaries to achieve it
But he is not too bright when it comes to Econ despite being at uc. He envisions doubling the amt of radoncs at half the salary. That is not how markets work. We would keep same number from radoncs employed, but at
1/2 the salary with 10-50% unemployed/locums to mantain downward pressure. And at the point, would hate to think of what kind of candidates would be applying.
 
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medgator

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The PhD discussion is very appropriate.

After all, this all started with a chairman looking to get MD/PhD trained rad onc physician-scientists at basement BARGAIN prices!
As hallahan at Wash U said... The faculty salaries are too damn high
 
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thecarbonionangle

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It is clear that one chair does not hold monopoly on holding trash ideas. Unfortunately, our specialty is replete with clown bully “leaders”. The first step to redemption is to begin rooting out bad no good people and empowering good decent people. Take the hippos out, let the crocs run the swamp. We need to stop rewarding bad people in our field.

top guy is PW who needs to go!
 
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