Anyone apply after doing a phd?

[tubercle]

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Does anyone have any experience applying after 5-6 years of grad school?

Any advice/ stories welcome.

 

[uptoolate]

Yes-

I applied after an MPH, a Ph.D, Peace Corps, and the birth of a child. So, I answer a post on my new school's website for used books. It turns out that the student selling the books also got a PhD at the same place I did, also did Peace Corps, and also had kids during school. Apparently we're not the anomalies my colleagues tried to convince me I would be.

 

[Scottish Chap]

Yes. First-time applicant after 4 years grad school and a post-doc. I'll start this year.

 

[tubercle]

Yes-

I applied after an MPH, a Ph.D, Peace Corps, and the birth of a child. So, I answer a post on my new school's website for used books. It turns out that the student selling the books also got a PhD at the same place I did, also did Peace Corps, and also had kids during school. Apparently we're not the anomalies my colleagues tried to convince me I would be.

Any advice? Its pretty much a pain in the A% to do this application thing when you're post college. I'm not going through a pre med committee. Not to mention taking the mcat this past april while a full time grad student wasn't exactly the easiest balance.

 

[tubercle]

Any advice? Its pretty much a pain in the A% to do this application thing when you're post college. I'm not going through a pre med committee. Not to mention taking the mcat this past april while a full time grad student wasn't exactly the easiest balance.

Did you guys go through your undergrad pre med committees? Also are you staying in house at your grad institutions?

How are you judged as an applicant?

I feel that its a completely different ball game and whenever i talk to someone they really can't relate to this situation.

 

[uptoolate]

I went through my under-grad pre-med committee. I was surprised I had to go this route as I had my 10th reunion this past week-end. I thought the whole ideas was crazy but it was a life saver and definitely eased the process.

As for the Ph.D part of it, it was a mixed bag. Some people thought (think) I was crazy, some people were really encouraging, some people were [oddly] angry. Whatever- do what makes you happy. I've found there's a lot more Ph.Ds going the med school route than I would have thought at the beginning. Good luck.

 

[Learfan]

I will be starting med school in August. Previous education and work experiences include a physical science PhD, an MBA and a long stint with a big oil, refining and chemical company. After trying a variety of roles in the company, I concluded that corporate life does not work for me. The vast majority of research projects lead to nothing and most business decisions made by committe are hopelessly flawed leading to huge financial losses. I need to get out of this environment and work for myself in a far more autonomous role where patients can provide some positive feedback to be happy.

Getting letters was less of an issue for me. Since almost everyone I work with is either an MD or PhD, I just asked friends to write them. My school daze are far in the past and I doubt anyone would remember me.

 

[Foreigner]

I am applying this year. I'm almost done with my PhD (never say almost, though 🙂, which is in immunology, so it's not that far off. I was very anxious at first, but the more I got into the process, the more I realized a lot of people do it. Plus, I'm international student, meaning a lot less schools that I can apply to.

To the Scottish Chap - I hadn't realized you did a post-doc as well. Did you do the usual 3 years or did you decide to go earlier? Just currious.

Good luck!

 

[MotherJones]

I am also a PhD student who plans on applying to Med school in a few years. It is quite difficult to compare my stats with those found in the MSAR because those are undergrad GPAs. So, I really don't know where I stand grade wise. Do any of you grad students know how graduate grades are handled by the selection committees?

 

[Foreigner]

I am also a PhD student who plans on applying to Med school in a few years. It is quite difficult to compare my stats with those found in the MSAR because those are undergrad GPAs. So, I really don't know where I stand grade wise. Do any of you grad students know how graduate grades are handled by the selection committees?

I think they'll still look at your undergaduate grades. My grad school is pass/fail, so I don't have neither the GPA nor the transcript. I guess it all depends.

 

[QofQuimica]

I am finishing my PhD in chemistry and applying now to go to medical school next year. There are several of us here on SDN; if you haven't already, check out the non-traditionals forum and also the MSTP forum. Many of the posters are in combined MD/PhD programs, but there are also some like us who are doing the degrees separately. OP, are you planning to apply for 2006?

***********

General advice for people who want to apply as a post-doc: you need to do most of the same things as the undergrads do, and you will still probably need to ask for some requirements to be waived, such as getting letters from professors whose classes you took a decade ago. 🙄 But you should start by taking the pre-reqs, if you haven't already, and try to make As in them if you can. You should also start shadowing and volunteering now if you are not already doing that. Second, you should study for the MCAT, but not until AFTER completing the pre-reqs. Make sure that you take several practice tests so that you'll know what to expect. If you take a prep course, you will take multiple practice tests as part of the curriculum. Third, you should buy or borrow a copy of the MSAR, and pick some schools. You should also start working on your PS and soliciting letters from your current advisor, committee members, and other people who have experience working with you in graduate school or your post-doc.

 

[Learfan]

I am also a PhD student who plans on applying to Med school in a few years. It is quite difficult to compare my stats with those found in the MSAR because those are undergrad GPAs. So, I really don't know where I stand grade wise. Do any of you grad students know how graduate grades are handled by the selection committees?

You will be judged to a substantial degree on two issues: your graduate degree and grades earned in the courses provided it is in a technical subject and the MCAT score. My inconsistent undergrad record was never even mentioned during interviews but the PhD was mentioned frequently.

Key advice: CRUSH THE MCAT

Since the academic background of the pool of applicants is so diverse and difficult to quantify, the MCAT is the great leveler by which everyone can be compared. Make this work for you not against you.

 

[Learfan]

I am finishing my PhD in chemistry and applying now to go to medical school next year. There are several of us here on SDN; if you haven't already, check out the non-traditionals forum and also the MSTP forum. Many of the posters are in combined MD/PhD programs, but there are also some like us who are doing the degrees separately. OP, are you planning to apply for 2006?

***********

General advice for people who want to apply as a post-doc: you need to do most of the same things as the undergrads do, and you will still probably need to ask for some requirements to be waived, such as getting letters from professors whose classes you took a decade ago. 🙄 But you should start by taking the pre-reqs, if you haven't already, and try to make As in them if you can. You should also start shadowing and volunteering now if you are not already doing that. Second, you should study for the MCAT, but not until AFTER completing the pre-reqs. Make sure that you take several practice tests so that you'll know what to expect. If you take a prep course, you will take multiple practice tests as part of the curriculum. Third, you should buy or borrow a copy of the MSAR, and pick some schools. You should also start working on your PS and soliciting letters from your current advisor, committee members, and other people who have experience working with you in graduate school or your post-doc.

Sorry you went for the PhD in chemistry. That was my choice as well and it turned out to be a poor credential in terms of what you can do when out in the work force. The latest ACS employment survey shows only 38% of PhDs obtaining employment in their field. Not a good situation. Hopefully medicine will turn out to be a better choice of career.

 

[maddscientist]

I am finishing up my PhD in Biochemistry(one of these days) and applying for med school this year. I worked my ass off studying for the MCAT while researching full time last year and I am really glad to have that under my belt. For those applying applying after a post-doc: Bravo! The thought of doing a post-doc right now sounds about as appealing as sticking my hand in a blender.

 

[teh-t]

looks like we have quite a few phd's here. I also had been a postdoc fellow for 2 years when I began the application process. It was a very difficult task to make sure all the applications were properly submitted, participate in the interview process, and then wait for their answers while working full time.
I would say someone applying in this situation would need to have had a productive graduate and postgraduate career. I dont know if a science oriented dissertation is more advantageous than a liberal arts one but certainly a record of publications, abstracts, etc. that show that you are capable of handling the work and contribute to a med school class will give you a strong advantage

 

[gujuDoc]

Sorry you went for the PhD in chemistry. That was my choice as well and it turned out to be a poor credential in terms of what you can do when out in the work force. The latest ACS employment survey shows only 38% of PhDs obtaining employment in their field. Not a good situation. Hopefully medicine will turn out to be a better choice of career.

Why are you assuming that she couldn't get a postdoc because she's chosen to continue on into medicine??? I'm sure she could have gotten a chemistry job if she wanted to continue in that direction. However, knowing the OP, as I personally do....

I know what you implied is far be it from the truth as to why she chose medicine.

 

[teh-t]

i can tell you as someone who has worked in the chemical industry, it has one of the lowest unemployment rates (<3%)

 

[gujuDoc]

i can tell you as someone who has worked in the chemical industry, it has one of the lowest unemployment rates (<3%)

Even so, I know Q personally and know that it wasn't her reason for wanting to go to med school. In other words, the job industry has nothing to do with her reason for going to med school. That's the point.

 

[PHD_2007]

Hey guys,
I am in grad school (Doctorate in Biomedical Science specifically Heart Development) right now and I'm awaiting MCAT scores as well. I am currently serving many roles in preparation for my AMCAS application next year (PHD student/volunteer/shadowing-gaining clinical experience/professor (biology)). Needless to say I have little personal time but I really want to have a strong application. I pray I did well on the MCAT!!! (I'll see in 6 or 7 days). I'm glad I to have some camaraderie here on SDN. Most people tell me I want to be a career student I just smile and throw on the "Southern Charm". 😍 LOL I really want to keep my hand in research, see my own patients and serve as an adjunct clinical professor as well. SO there is a method to my MADNESS! 😍

 

[teh-t]

Even so, I know Q personally and know that it wasn't her reason for wanting to go to med school. In other words, the job industry has nothing to do with her reason for going to med school. That's the point.

😕
I was talking about learfan's post and i thought i was supporting your post? 😕

 

[CADreaming06]

i'm also finishing up my phd (or trying to), and applying this year. Definately hard taking the MCAT and applying while being more than a full-time grad student, but it has been exciting and has continued to confirm my decision to go into medicine. For those who already went through this process, how much did your fulltime research help outweight the fact that we don't have alot of time to volunteer at a hospital etc, are the admissions committee's understanding? Also, does anyone know if being a grad student at a particular university help you in terms of admissions to that same school?

 

[teh-t]

i think it helped greatly, as i had no recent clinical experience, but a strong research record and recommendations. I did have 4 years clinical experience at the outpatient surgery office of my physician but that was 6 years ago. nonetheless, they were impressed with this in terms of clinical exposure

 

[gujuDoc]

😕
I was talking about learfan's post and i thought i was supporting your post? 😕

Oh I thought you were commenting because of what I said in response to Learfan.

My response to Learfan was made because it sounded like he was implying that Q had decided medicine because of a lack of good job offers. In that particular case, not necessarily the issue.

In general, I can imagine getting a good research position is hard.

I always thought chemistry positions, however, were easier to get then biology positions with an equally good pay.

I've heard from other grad students at my university that they've got as much as 60 grand salaried job offers with a BA in chemistry, but chose to do PhD work in other fields instead.

I've also heard from others that they've found their chemistry and physical science related degrees equate to better jobs then their bio degrees did. In other words, they got job offers with a chemistry degree and physics minor, but none with a bio degree. So I was under the impression the job market needs more chemists.

 

[gujuDoc]

😕
I was talking about learfan's post and i thought i was supporting your post? 😕

Oh I thought you were commenting because of what I said in response to Learfan.

My response to Learfan was made because it sounded like he was implying that Q had decided medicine because of a lack of good job offers. In that particular case, not necessarily the issue.

In general, I can imagine getting a good research position is hard.

I always thought chemistry positions, however, were easier to get then biology positions with an equally good pay.

I've heard from other grad students at my university that they've got as much as 60 grand salaried job offers with a BA in chemistry, but chose to do PhD work in other fields instead.

I've also heard from others that they've found their chemistry and physical science related degrees equate to better jobs then their bio degrees did. In other words, they got job offers with a chemistry degree and physics minor, but none with a bio degree. So I was under the impression the job market needs more chemists.

 

[QofQuimica]

lmao, sorry to be the subject of so much confusion.

Learfan, I haven't graduated yet, although I will in another semester or two. From my observation, getting a post doc is not too hard, but getting a real job afterward is difficult as you suggested. I know several people who have had to post-doc for four or five years before they were finally able to land a permanent job. You sound like you've had some interesting experiences. What made you decide to go to medical school in particular? And do you plan to try to use your chemistry background somehow afterward? I would like to find a way to integrate it with medicine.

Learfan, teh-t and maddscientist, I'm glad to be finding out that there are so many other pre-med and medical student chemists out there. 👍 It would be really fun if we all ended up at the same medical school. Can you imagine???

Gujudoc, thanks for your support. But I don't think Learfan was trying to be insulting; s/he just wanted to comment on the job market for chemistry PhDs.

CADreaming06, you still do need to volunteer and shadow even while you do your research. The schools expect you to do it. What I do is work at the hospital from 6-8AM one day per week. It's miserable getting up that early and I'm tired all day, but it was the only time I could fit the volunteering in without cutting into my research time, so that's when I do it. Each week at 4:45 AM, I have that internal struggle: which would I rather do more, sleep in today or go to medical school next year? And then I get myself out of bed and go volunteer. 😛

 

[Sparky Man]

hey, i'm getting a phd, too! right now i'm printing my thesis for my committee...

next year i'll go to wash u.

sparky

 

[1Path]

Learfan, teh-t and maddscientist, I'm glad to be finding out that there are so many other pre-med and medical student chemists out there.

Add me to the futrue medical school chemist (MS degree) list!

About the job industry, man how things have changed since I finished in 99`. Many students from my school(Chapel Hill) had multiple offers at the BS, MS and PhD level. And now that I live in a Gov't town, I see even more jobs at that level depending on what you're willing to do ie FDA, NIH, Nuclear Regulatory Commission, ect.

 

[PHD_2007]

Hey Sparky,
I was wondering if Wash U had a 1 year requirement for Calculus. I want to apply there but I have only taken Cal I and not Cal II. I hate to audit Cal I and take Cal II on top of al the other things I have going on! 😎 😍

 

[CADreaming06]

CADreaming06, you still do need to volunteer and shadow even while you do your research. The schools expect you to do it. What I do is work at the hospital from 6-8AM one day per week. It's miserable getting up that early and I'm tired all day, but it was the only time I could fit the volunteering in without cutting into my research time, so that's when I do it. Each week at 4:45 AM, I have that internal struggle: which would I rather do more, sleep in today or go to medical school next year? And then I get myself out of bed and go volunteer. 😛

Thank you for the advice, I am trying to arrange volunteering at a NY hospital for a few hours a week, and luckily my PI is totally in support of that. In terms of my application though, I had alot of clinical experience in college, but then my volunteering dropped off the map as soon as I started doing research. I'm hoping by interviews I will have had a few solid months of volunteer work under my belt, but at the time of application that committment isn't so evident.

 

[QofQuimica]

Thank you for the advice, I am trying to arrange volunteering at a NY hospital for a few hours a week, and luckily my PI is totally in support of that. In terms of my application though, I had alot of clinical experience in college, but then my volunteering dropped off the map as soon as I started doing research. I'm hoping by interviews I will have had a few solid months of volunteer work under my belt, but at the time of application that committment isn't so evident.

Right, and that is the problem I had, too. I started candystriping in high school and continued in college, then stopped once I got to grad school. I have been doing other (nonmedical) volunteering all along, and I was told that I STILL needed to have current/recent medical volunteering. That's the thing: it has to be RECENT, and it has to be MEDICAL. So I'm glad that you're going to start doing it. Good luck with your apps.

 

[Learfan]

Why are you assuming that she couldn't get a postdoc because she's chosen to continue on into medicine??? I'm sure she could have gotten a chemistry job if she wanted to continue in that direction. However, knowing the OP, as I personally do....

I know what you implied is far be it from the truth as to why she chose medicine.

No, I am assuming that the person who posted the original remarks wanted to eventually make some money in the real work force using the skills they acquired in the PhD program rather than continue to be a semi-slave working long hours under unsafe conditions as an academic post-doc. I knew several people at the close of my own PhD program many years ago who could not find real work which is defined as either an industrial job or a faculty appointment. These unfortunate individuals did two or more post-docs earming next to nothing laboring for two to four years becoming more bitter with each passing day. None of them voluntarily chose to become a pepetual post-doc.

What I am implying by my original comments is that the job market for those graduating with the skills acquired by completing a chemistry PhD is poor. Very few employers are seeking out such people. The last American Chemical Society job survey demonstrated that only 38% of new graduates at the PhD level were able to find work in their field. This means you are 26 to 29 years old, highly degreed and very highly specialized in your training, possibly in some educational debt and almost unemployable. This is not a good situation.

 

[Sparky Man]

Hey Sparky,
I was wondering if Wash U had a 1 year requirement for Calculus. I want to apply there but I have only taken Cal I and not Cal II. I hate to audit Cal I and take Cal II on top of al the other things I have going on! 😎 😍

Hey, on wash u's website, they say,

"Required course work includes a minimum of one year in biological science, general or inorganic chemistry, organic chemistry, physics and mathematics through calculus, including integral equations and differential equations."

Good luck!!

 

[1Path]

Hey, on wash u's website, they say,

"Required course work includes a minimum of one year in biological science, general or inorganic chemistry, organic chemistry, physics and mathematics through calculus, including integral equations and differential equations."

Good luck!!

Years back I took PChem without Diffeq and let me say that doing so was pure HELL!!! I'm soooo glad Wash U isn't on my list of schools!

 

[Learfan]

lmao, sorry to be the subject of so much confusion.

Learfan, I haven't graduated yet, although I will in another semester or two. From my observation, getting a post doc is not too hard, but getting a real job afterward is difficult as you suggested. I know several people who have had to post-doc for four or five years before they were finally able to land a permanent job. You sound like you've had some interesting experiences. What made you decide to go to medical school in particular? And do you plan to try to use your chemistry background somehow afterward? I would like to find a way to integrate it with medicine.

Learfan, teh-t and maddscientist, I'm glad to be finding out that there are so many other pre-med and medical student chemists out there. 👍 It would be really fun if we all ended up at the same medical school. Can you imagine???

Gujudoc, thanks for your support. But I don't think Learfan was trying to be insulting; s/he just wanted to comment on the job market for chemistry PhDs.

CADreaming06, you still do need to volunteer and shadow even while you do your research. The schools expect you to do it. What I do is work at the hospital from 6-8AM one day per week. It's miserable getting up that early and I'm tired all day, but it was the only time I could fit the volunteering in without cutting into my research time, so that's when I do it. Each week at 4:45 AM, I have that internal struggle: which would I rather do more, sleep in today or go to medical school next year? And then I get myself out of bed and go volunteer. 😛

You are correct. I am not attempting to insult anyone. The key learning I am trying to convey is that the job market for people with the skills acquired by completing a PhD in chemistry is very weak and has been for many years.

I have worked for a large mult-national oil, refining and petrochemical company for many years. If you do not go up the ladder as a manager, your career goes nowhere in terms of both responsibility and promotion. Instead, as a technical employee, you get endless opportunities to beg for money to perform yet another useless research project that will not work. Chalk up another failure. Time to go beg for money again. (Insert bitter sarcasm here).

To get into management starting from a technical role requires a lot of butt kissing and even more luck. There is usually a defined role into managerial positions starting in sales, something else I did not know as a technical person. Measurable success in terms of actually making the company money, which is something I can document, does not count. I thought such things actually mattered. Silly me. (Place very large quantity of exceptionally bitter sarcasm here).

It gets both very boring and extremely depressing to go to work every day as a technical employee knowing you cannot advance any of the projects since you do not have any of the required resources. This happens in large corporations far more often then you might believe. Further, even if you become a manager, you do not get any real decision making authority within the corporation until you are a vice president. In my firm, I estimate that only 35 to 50 people have real decision making roles that matter in a company of 95,000 employees. The inability to access a decision making role where I can have a measure of control prompted a decision on my part to change careers. Please understand that I did not comprehend how the corporate structure really worked until I had been employed for a number of years and also completed an MBA.


"Learfan, I haven't graduated yet, although I will in another semester or two. From my observation, getting a post doc is not too hard, but getting a real job afterward is difficult as you suggested. I know several people who have had to post-doc for four or five years before they were finally able to land a permanent job. You sound like you've had some interesting experiences. What made you decide to go to medical school in particular? And do you plan to try to use your chemistry background somehow afterward? I would like to find a way to integrate it with medicine."


To address your questions and comments:

Obtaining an industrial job that pays what you are worth after missing out on all of the income you could have earned working with a BS or MS is exceptionally difficult. The quantity of positions is not there when compared to the number of new PhDs emerging into the work force each year. When I graduated, I did about 35 on campus interviews to obtain 7 research center interview trip offers but only one actual offer of employment. That alone should have told me that the job market for highly degreed chemists was not good. I went to a school that would be ranked in the top 15% of the 168 universities (United States and Canada) offering a PhD program in chemistry and graduated from a lab run by a well known faculty member. He had hundreds of publications, was a president of the ACS, over $2 million in annual grants, a group size of 20 grad students and post-docs, etc. It still did not help the students get real jobs.

My decision to go to medical school was prompted by a number of things. As mentioned, I will never have a decision making role in the corporation. That is intolerable to me since I know that I can make better decisions than can many of our current corporate leaders. That may sound like a strong statement but it is true. The corporation I work for recently had a major scandal reported in the news media which resulted in the dismisal of the senior officers and the payment of about $200 million in fines to the SEC and the equivalent regulatory agency in the UK. The lies which prompted the scandal were all verified. On the chemical side of the company, the last three plants that were built were never actually used to make the intended products. The losses on construction costs alone total $760 million. A monkey could make better business decisions and avoid these horrible financial losses. It starts out with telling the truth to the regulatory agencies and assuring that there is a market for a product prior to commiting to building a plant.

After being unhappy in this job for many years and being unable to find work with another company, I decided to take stock of what it will take to make me happy in a future job. I take my work quite seriously. To be happy, I need a job that provides frequent stimulation, a wide variety of technically demanding problems to solve, frequent feedback concerning the degree of success I am having in solving the problems brought to me, people coming to me for answers that matter, decision making authority and high renumeration. Medicine seems to have all of these attributes. A further factor that prompted the decision was the example provided by a friend who established an IM practice not far from me in 1997. He currently has it all as far as my job decision criteria were concerned: autonomy, people coming to him with real problems to solve, feedback on his actions, decision making authority and very high renumeration. A further factor that influenced my decision process was the completion as an undergrad of all of the medical prerequisites. I was a dual major in both biology and chemistry. Therefore, the pathway into medicine was a bit more available to me when compared to someone who had not taken the required courses.

I doubt that I will ever make use of chemistry again other than as a tool that assists in the learning of some medical principles. I could have been happier working with a company active in my primary chemical interests which included the pharmaceutical, animal health or crop protection areas as a chemist and possibly a manager but a post-doc was a requirement at the time I graduated to obtain entry to such positions. I had a very bad experience as a graduate student and was determined to start real work rather than post-doc.

 

[PHD_2007]

Bump 😍

 

[docbill]

So which schools like PhD grads?

Some like UCLA state on their website, applicants with higher degrees incouraged to apply. Are there any others like that.

I applied and got accepted to UNECOM (D.O.). They where thrilled about MS and ALmost complete PhD. Did not even ask about undergrad. MCAT was high 20s. They did not ask about that either.

 

[PHD_2007]

I would also like to know of any schools that are kind to Phd's. I know research schools will be eager to admit doctoral students. 🙂

 

[CADreaming06]

I would also like to know of any schools that are kind to Phd's. I know research schools will be eager to admit doctoral students. 🙂

I know UCSF is also good about taking folks from a variety of backgrounds. Other schools include Penn, Univ. of Chicago. When i talked to my premed advisor, she just encouraged me to apply to schools that had a research focus, but the problem with that is they tend to be top tier and my numbers aren't. i'm applying anyway, i've committed to reapplying again next year if this year doesn't go as well. i'm sure my professor won't mind if I stay an extra year in lab 🙂.

 

[docbill]

i'm sure my professor won't mind if I stay an extra year in lab 🙂.

YEAhhhhh SURE. I was admitted for class of 2009. I defered to finish PhD properly. Something I regret BIG TIME. Profs are like blood suckers... they will milk Graduate students. Especially those who are producing data and doing a great job. The ones that are not very productive or have any inteligence will be helped to wrap up and leave. Just to get them off their hands.

Do you sence I am becoming bitter? YES I am.

I am stuck in the lab almost every weekend and 10-12 hours a days. Then go home and work on computer a few more hours.

Just leting off steam.. hehehe

 

[Sparky Man]

Years back I took PChem without Diffeq and let me say that doing so was pure HELL!!! I'm soooo glad Wash U isn't on my list of schools!

🙂 i loved pchem so much, i'm getting a phd in it!

😍 oh, pchem... 😍

 

[Learfan]

YEAhhhhh SURE. I was admitted for class of 2009. I defered to finish PhD properly. Something I regret BIG TIME. Profs are like blood suckers... they will milk Graduate students. Especially those who are producing data and doing a great job. The ones that are not very productive or have any inteligence will be helped to wrap up and leave. Just to get them off their hands.

Do you sence I am becoming bitter? YES I am.

I am stuck in the lab almost every weekend and 10-12 hours a days. Then go home and work on computer a few more hours.

Just leting off steam.. hehehe

I understand your bitterness. Sorry to hear of another suffering soul but we were both seduced by the dark side.

Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirt. The experience sucked.

Do whatever is needed to terminate the graduate school experience ASAP. You are a slave to your graduate advisor who is only concerned with publications and further academic pseudo-glory for himself or herself. I could tell tales of the endless foolish behavior engaged in by academics. My advisor pursued a war in the physical organic chemistry literature for years with H. C. Brown and George Olah over issues in carbonium ion chemistry that had been settled long ago. It all proved to be a battle of childish egos. Almost nothing in the academic chemical literature matters in an industrial context where non-standard one of a kind methods are frequently employed to manufacture the products that people will actually buy. What you learn in academic chemistry is all but useless in the industrial context.

Get out of there and see if you can finance a cool vacation in some tropical paradise to wash the nonsense that is academic science out of your mind.

As you can probably tell from other posts, my future goal is to pursue a career in clinical medicine. No more research for this boy.

 

[jvphd]

I'm hoping to finish by Spring 2006 (Microbiology). Am applying for 2006 entering class. If I don't finish in time I figure I will just defer for a year. I haven't broke the news to my advisor yet...I'm kind of afraid that once my committee finds out that they will insist I do even more work and thus more time in this hell hole that is graduate school.

 

[CADreaming06]

I'm hoping to finish by Spring 2006 (Microbiology). Am applying for 2006 entering class. If I don't finish in time I figure I will just defer for a year. I haven't broke the news to my advisor yet...I'm kind of afraid that once my committee finds out that they will insist I do even more work and thus more time in this hell hole that is graduate school.

actually, when i told my committee, their response was "you should have told us earlier, we could have focused your research to help you finish". my committee and advisor are really supportive. ultimately, they are the ones who decide when you graduate, so they need to understand your position, and be supportive of that. I have gotten some negative reactions from other professors though - some feel like I am leaving science forever, or leaving "the club", even though i intend to get involved in translational research. it is actually a good guage of who to ask for recommendations. anyone who couldn't understand my reasoning or was negative, I didn't bother to ask.

 

[Learfan]

🙂 i loved pchem so much, i'm getting a phd in it!

😍 oh, pchem... 😍

A PhD in pchem? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....................

Are there any other aspects of your life that involve that much masochism? 😀

A PhD in pchem is an experience I could not contemplate. However, one should consider a sure way to spot an organic chemist such as myself. If someone starts to place a higher math expression on the board, people like me are out the door before the first equation is complete. I just barely survived calc 3 and swore never to see or use that material ever again. No more math ever again for this simple minded ochemist. I just want to build huge natural products with at least 40 chiral centers.

 

[Sparky Man]

A PhD in pchem? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....................

Are there any other aspects of your life that involve that much masochism? 😀

Yes, definitely lots of masochism in my education. After that, I'll start med school this fall! Good luck with the chiral centers. That stuff is cool! I liked organic chemistry theory, but could never get anything to work in the lab. I guess I just enjoyed the chemical physics/physical chemistry side more. Thermodynamics is a little nuts, but quantum mechanics was pretty darn interesting...

 

[QofQuimica]

Hee hee, I liked p. chem too and I never minded the math. I hang out with p. chemists and even physicists, and they like me because I DON'T run away screaming at the sight of an equation. 😉 Actually I made As in all of my p. chem classes in grad school (I took four!) and Bs in most of my organic classes. My closest call was ironically organic synthesis, which I barely passed with a low B. Guess which organic class I got an A in??? You got it, physical organic (reactions and mechanisms). Go figure. But I'm still doing synthesis anyway, not p. chem. 😀 I don't think I qualify as a "real" organic chemist anyway....I have never stereospecifically synthesized anything with a zillion stereocenters. 😛 But I can racemize stereocenters with the best of them.

Learfan, I hope that you enjoy medical school and being a physician more than graduate school and being a chemist. Would you mind telling me here or by PM who you worked for? I'm already almost positive that I know based on what you've said so far. 😛

jvphd, my advisor was also very supportive. Actually, when I first told him that I wanted to go to medical school, he suggested my dropping out of graduate school altogether because he thought I wanted to go straight clinical. When I told him no, I want to do research, he was actually very excited about the idea.

Schools that like PhDs: I want to know the answer to this one, too. I wish we had better info about it. Sparky and I already talked about this question earlier. Anyone else have any thoughts? PhDs who are already admitted, your input would be especially helpful here.

 

[Gut Shot]

Ladies and gentlemen of graduate school,

There is a light at the end of the tunnel, and a fertile valley beyond the sea of manure. I might not be singing this tune a month from now, but for the time being, the fruit is sweet and the juice is sticky.

I wish you all the wisdom to chart the path of least resistance to the end of your degrees. Come play in this pasture. It's green and warm, and we have a keg and some slutty hippie chicks. Yipeee!

-Havarti666, MD (2005), PhD (2001)

 

[Learfan]

Ladies and gentlemen of graduate school,

There is a light at the end of the tunnel, and a fertile valley beyond the sea of manure. I might not be singing this tune a month from now, but for the time being, the fruit is sweet and the juice is sticky.

I wish you all the wisdom to chart the path of least resistance to the end of your degrees. Come play in this pasture. It's green and warm, and we have a keg and some slutty hippie chicks. Yipeee!

-Havarti666, MD (2005), PhD (2001)

ALRIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BRING ON THE GOURMET FOOD, FINE WINE AND SLUTTY HIPPIE CHICKS.

Reminds me of how I celebrated my release from the depths of hell......................errrrrrr.............I meant graduation with my PhD. Actually my celebration included too much alcohol, lots of good food and a prolonged daliance with a recent divorcee who was seriously into horses. I grew to admire her riding talents even if a horse did not happen to be present at the time of my admiration.

So, all those still imprisioned in the graduate school gulag. make your break for freedom. Real life awaits and its a fine deal.

😀 😀 😀

 

[Learfan]

Yes, definitely lots of masochism in my education. After that, I'll start med school this fall! Good luck with the chiral centers. That stuff is cool! I liked organic chemistry theory, but could never get anything to work in the lab. I guess I just enjoyed the chemical physics/physical chemistry side more. Thermodynamics is a little nuts, but quantum mechanics was pretty darn interesting...

Quantum mechanics........................utterly terrifing. (Simple minded ochemist opens door and runs screaming with fear into the night). 😀

Actually, I never performed the type of complex synthesis that I really wanted to in grad school. I made the mistake of working for a big name in physical organic chemistry who happened to have a synthetic project at the time, so I did not get the broad exposure to synthetic methods needed to enter pharmaceuticals, animal health or crop protection which were my real career targets. The problem was in choosing an advisor. There were three choices: the "big name", who was a physical organic type, the "real synthetic chemist" whose students hated him and were actively discouraging others from joining the group and the "new guy synthetic chemist" who I later learned was a stellar chemist but a person with no self control along with a host of other personality pathologies. Working for the real synthetic chemist proved to be a horrible experience for most of his students while the new guy, despite being exceptionally bright, was very immature and was ultimately denied tenure due mostly to his childish stunts one of which made the TV news. In addition to being the wrong choice from the point of view of an education, the advisor I chose (the big name) proved to be a impossible individual in terms of forming a relationship. We did not get along at all and I just wanted out of there. So, I went into industry, took a shot at getting into management and ultimately realized that I did not like the industrial experience.

 

[Sparky Man]

Quantum mechanics........................utterly terrifing. (Simple minded ochemist opens door and runs screaming with fear into the night). 😀

Actually, I never actually performed the type of complex synthesis that I really wanted to in grad school. I made the mistake of working for a big name in physical organic chemistry who happened to have a synthetic project at the time, so I did not get the broad exposure to synthetic methods needed to enter pharmaceuticals, animal health or crop protection which were my real career targets. The problem was in choosing an advisor. There were three choices....

Hey Learfan,

I have been there. Choosing an advisor is one of the most imortant and often traumatic experiences in graduate school. You can work for one person and be a total success, and work for another and feel like a wreck. It is hardly fair. Some people are "in" a group before they arrive! I wanted to work for a big name theorist, but he recommended I look around. Feeling burned, I ended up joining a new guy with an empty lab. Let me tell you, it was a roller coaster. We got him tenure (I really think it depends quite a bit on the students, other problems aside), but the process was just brutal. After this, I knew I didn't want to run a group at a big name school, even though I love research. Anyway, I think/hope there is more fairness in medical school.

Sparky