I have completely lost interest in medical school, medicine,..science in general actually which is making it impossible to study. Sucky timing considering step 1 is 4 short months away and I don't want end up in rural North Dakota for a Family med residency.Unfortunately I do not have the financial means of paying back loans if I drop out, and I'd feel like a total loser if I was to unsuccessfully go through medical school. Anyone else experierening the same feelings? Is this just the effects of M2 year? Is there hope for 3rd/4th year? I really hope so.
Anyone else losing interest?
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I'm just an M1... but I have friends that are in M2 who are feeling the same way you are. Apparently 3rd year is 100x better. More real life stuff. Less books.
You're probably burning out, or have burned out. Solution? Take some personal time.
My school does this stupid thing where we have end of block exams and then we have end of semester exams for each block. I had 4 exams in 3 days in December. I was definitely burnt out by the end of it. I spent most of Christmas break drinking with friends and sleeping... sleeping so much.
It'll get better. Just keep on chugging. 🙂
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3rd year is not 100x better. It's just different, with an entirely new set of challenges and miserabalities. Med students always tell themselves: ahhh, the next phase is when things get good! Well that next phase never happens. Medicine sucks in many ways. The best advice I can give you is choose your specialty wisely. How do you do that? Be honest with yourself about what interests you, and most importantly, what you want out of life. That's your only way out of walking down a road that you realize is miserable, only to find out it's too late to turn back.
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The first two years of med school aren't medicine. Before you quit, shadow a pp attending in a specialty you think you might like.
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I've lost all interest. And you should too if /when you're an M4
👍👍 perfectly stated.
OP, M4>>>>>>M2/1>M3. This is just my opinion. M3 year kinda sucks because you are trying a learn a whole bunch of stuff, is your first time really interacting with patients in the "physician role", having to constantly rotate on different fields and with different people and teams (some of whom you will not mesh with), will be subjectively graded to a degree, will not have a lot of free time, have a limited knowledge base, etc. However once you push past M3 year and figure out what field you really like 4th year becomes good because you can really focus on your interest and do some electives. Also your knowledge base is much expanded and things become easier because you have already done it before.
Many people will disagree with me above but I didn't mind the class work and studying of M1/2 so much. It wasn't much different from undergrad to me. M3 just sort of blows all around. Some rotations are better than others but my main goal day in day out was just trying to go home early because you have so much other stuff to do. On M4 rotations I actually find myself trying to learn for the sake of learning. It's much more relaxed.
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Completely agree. Anybody who looks to M3 to save the day is going to be sorely disappointed.
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I'm a M2 and have been having someone similar feelings. I still find the material interesting, but I'm getting bored of the routine. Getting up and reading what is essentially a phonebook for several hours a day is starting to wear on me.
Just try to focus on the fact that this stupid test (step 1) is in many ways the determinant of your ability to choose a residency. Studying sucks, but try to get yourself to realize that even if the studying itself is a complete waste of time, the end (the ability to be competitive for whatever you might be interested in) is not.
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Pre-clinical medicine is pretty crappy at times, mostly because it's endless memorisation of facts you'll never use again. Let's face it, science is pretty dry and often boring, and it's not really why most of us got into medical school. But unfortunately it's another hoop which needs to be jumped through.
I'm also a pre-clinical student and I've heard from people in the years above that years 3 and 4 are much better, so I'm trying to stay positive. I don't feel like dropping out since I know that in the end the job will make med school worthwhile, but yeah, I feel frustrated a lot of the time too.
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As a current M4 looking back, I have to say that for me it was definitely M4>M3>M2>M1. The preclinical years are mind numbing because of the endless studying/lectures/tests. M3 year sucks in many ways too, but for me it was a million times better than the preclinical years. Yes you do get to be "involved" in patient care as much as a medical student can be (which is it at times not very involved at all - please understand this now so as not to get too discouraged), but you do have to deal with different personalities, reliance on various people to determine your evaluations and therefore your clerkship grade, shelf exams, constantly changing rotations and environments, and many fields that you will probably not like. For instance, I loved family medicine because I was heavily involved in patient care and got to do lots of procedures. I hated internal medicine because rounding makes me die a little bit inside and my "role" in patient care was nominal at best. In the end, I would take the crap that comes with M3 year over the preclinical years any day because there is more variability and you see different things. Also Step 1 is behind you which is by far the biggest hurdle.
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M1 and M2 are the years that I would least want to repeat right now. It's the middle of winter, and the slog is starting to wear on you. I wouldn't be too discouraged now - M3 isn't necessarily better, but it's a huge change of pace, and it's not boring.
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OP, that feeling is completely normal. Pretty sure everyone has thought of quitting at some point during their training.
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Definitely not true. More stress, a lot more. Looking back, I really miss first two years compared to this, especially waking up whenever the hell you want. Now waking up at 6:30 AM is considered "late" for me, LOL.
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Hang in there OP. It's easy to get lost in the woods during M1/M2, but (for most) it does get better IF medicine is really what you want to do. M3 is better than M1/M2 without question, it's not a gravy train or anything, but you're finally doing something and you're exploring what it is you may potentially do with the rest of your life. Either way, no one expects jack squat from you as an M3 so anyone whining about how tough it is is a complete **** or hates interacting with people (or both). M4 year is....amazing. Either way, time to get your game face on for sure as you have arguably the most important test of your career looming. M4>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>M3>>>>>>>M2>M1.
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Off topic but that's a great lyric in your sig - Band on the Run is such an underrated album 😀
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No, M4 isn't amazing either. Can we stop this asinine use of exaggerated superlatives for describing how one unenjoyable thing is slightly less unenjoyable than another thing.
OMG it's 100000000000000x better!
It's soooooooooooooooo much more awesome!
It's leaves people that haven't reached that stage with some false hope that nirvana awaits them. The only nirvana in medical school is on your ipod.
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Everyone is different. Some people really enjoy the later years. I think people tend to enjoy what they're good at. And they are good at what they enjoy. Which is why some love M1/M2 and others love M3/M4.
I don't think it's false hope. I'm sure DreamingTheLive would have benefited from his/her own advice during M1/M2.
Would it come as any surprise to learn that if some people love medical school and some people hate it, that this type of duality continues out into the real world.
Some of my colleagues love practicing medicine - spiritually rewarding, financially stable, intellectually stimulating with great autonomy. Still others (and I picked up on this mostly while eating in the doctor's dining room) hate it, want to quit, want to retire early, can't stand how things are changing.
Some of my colleagues love practicing medicine - spiritually rewarding, financially stable, intellectually stimulating with great autonomy. Still others (and I picked up on this mostly while eating in the doctor's dining room) hate it, want to quit, want to retire early, can't stand how things are changing.
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At its worst, I wouldn't say I lost interest in medicine, just the process. As suggested, medicine can be a very fulfilling field and it can be a very frustrating field, especially with the politics involved.
Hang in there, stay focused, try to find time to do things to distract yourself and mentally recover for a while. It is far too easy to get sucked in and feel trapped or get consumed. Skipping an hour of studying for a movie or a workout or whatever you do helps keep everything in perspective.
Hang in there, stay focused, try to find time to do things to distract yourself and mentally recover for a while. It is far too easy to get sucked in and feel trapped or get consumed. Skipping an hour of studying for a movie or a workout or whatever you do helps keep everything in perspective.
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This notion that it's either you love m1/2 or love m3/4 is straight up brainwashing. If you love either of them, you have issues. The people that love m3/4 in particular. I "get" the people that may enjoy m1/2 - your typical Asperger's fit the role nicely. But m3/4? What on EARTH is there to love about playing fake doctor and spending your days subservient to the schedule of someone that has zero respect for your time. Dancing around like a puppet on a string to every hem and haw like you're feeding grapes to an oversexed roman idol. And what's best is you get to pay for the privilege! M4 isn't so awesome when you realize it's an untirely unnecessary year, yet you pay god know's how much for the privilege of playing Daniel Son to some doctor, doing all their dirty work (for which THEY get paid). Of course there are the interviewing months which you shell out an additional 10k to go on interviews, all the while continuing to pay your school. For what exactly? 4th year of medical school is a ponzie scheme designed to enrich the coffers of med schools and pad the pockets of preceptors.
CUE the chorus of everyone talking about how amazing their preceptors are. This site needs to add a sheep emoticon.
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You're in for a surprise.
Instead of having exams every few weeks and Step 1 looming over your head, in 3rd year you get 6 Step 1s (NBME clerkship exams) which tend to be the primary determining factor of your grade. The book studying doesn't end after 2nd year. You just get less free time to study and for the most part you have to teach yourself. And no, what you learn in the hospital does not correlate well to those exams. The hospital stuff is important too, but it's just a totally different skill set which unfortunately or fortunately is not how your grade is determined.
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I'll go against the grain a bit and say that I really enjoyed third year, for the most part. The long hours of surgery suck, and OB is mind-blowingly awful in so many, many ways. That said, I did enjoy surgery, and I felt like I was actually learning useful knowledge most of the year. M2 wasn't all that terrible for me since I didn't really study a whole lot until I started gearing up for Step 1 during March-ish of the year. I can't say I was ever really interested in what the first two years of med school had to offer, but I knew it was just something to get through to reach my goal. (It's disturbing how much of this training I can say that about, which is a big reason I wouldn't go into medicine again, but I digress.) I totally understand burnout during M1/M2. Let's face it: those years suck. You're just drowning in an endless deluge of mostly useless info that you'll forget as soon as Step 1 disappears, but you've got to push through.
In the mean time, maybe you should lighten your load some? Chill out for a test or two. Study to pass and nothing more. Make an effort to go out, play sports, play video games, read, whatever. Do something to regain your precious humanity because lord knows that medical education is set up to strip you of it. Hang in there. This, too, shall pass.
In the mean time, maybe you should lighten your load some? Chill out for a test or two. Study to pass and nothing more. Make an effort to go out, play sports, play video games, read, whatever. Do something to regain your precious humanity because lord knows that medical education is set up to strip you of it. Hang in there. This, too, shall pass.
That thought has come up a lot for me too. I applaud your courage for saying what others may feel, but are afraid to say.
People form opinions based on at least two ways.
One is by collecting information through observing the actual world as their eyes and ears tell them and then to do reality checks to compare what they actually witness to what they have been told. This requires using logic and common sense to form and test hypotheses.
The other way, (insert sheep emoticon), is to be passively molded by what they have heard over and over from their teachers since first grade and by the network news media.
One cannot blame the overwhelming majority of people who go along with the latter way, because it is a very powerful system, especially when it begins in the early developmental stages of childhood. Even those today who think outside the box have to confess to once upon a time in their lives having gone along with the rest of the masses.
However, that does not mean it is entirely impossible to break free from the matrix.
So for those of you who hate medical school, ask yourself this. Do you hate the concept of interacting with a suffering human being and using your knowledge and skills to help him/her?
Or do you just hate jumping through hoops, being badgered into obedience, and being ordered to repeat mantras of phrases that don't make sense to your internal reality checks?
The uncensored internet is a wonderful tool. Let's continue to have civil discussions and keep an open mind. I'm learning a lot and will continue to stick around as long as I'm welcome. Thanks!
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precisely
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Well said. M3 year is when the sociopathic gunners come on out. The ones who will complain about shortcomings in the program to you and others in the class, but when asked by the attending for feedback will say everything is amazing and nothing could be better while you are also there.
And the subjectivity is amazing in third year, after two years of obsessive testing. You will have residents who tell you you are doing a great job and then give you a Pass with comments like "continue reading." This is likely the same ahole who knew half as much in his M3 year as you already do as an M3.
If you thought after Step 1 you'll be done with the dry academics part, you're only deluding yourself. The shelves are even more arbitrary and frustrating. And then there is the MKSAP or ABSITE. Your free time when you are done with your eighty hour work week will revolve around making time to study for these pathetically poorly written tests, for the next 5-10 years.
Medicine needs a revolution. Most of the stuff we do in it makes no sense, and is horrible from a quality control standpoint, yet we continue doing it. The system is designed for minimum retention, and maximum unfamiliarity on everyone's part, starting with rounding and rotations. It's insane.
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I had very high hopes of medicine going in. I grew up fascinated with the wealth of insight into humanity that I assumed it contained, great respect for physicians for both their knowledge and gentle hand. I could go on. Basically all the BS that Hollywood delivers on a silver platter. Very soon I realized it was all a facade. A total facade. The veil was lifted from this career and I no longer look at it with admiration. Sure a couple docs here and there, but it's not medicine that I admire in them, I now realize it's just who they are as people that I admire - and it has nothing to do with their career. I've gotten to the point that I kind of curl my lip to most doctors, because the mystery is no longer there I no longer respect them for their career, and at this point, I kinda disrespect them for it. I know it sounds strange, but it's true. It's not what I thought it was - at all.
This is one of the best things I've heard. Ever. And 100% true.
The Medical "Education" system is just a minor offshoot of the bigger system which has gradually evolved in this country by which a few elite people exert control over the rest of the masses.
Realize that the process of going through medical school is a process which restricts any competing ways from challenging it. If 100 smart people thought of 100 new ways to try training doctors, common sense would suggest that even if 99 of the novel ways are inferior to the status quo, there's got to be at least 1 innovative thinker who can come up with a better way of doing this.
But the way things stand, it is illegal for anybody to come up with a competing way.
Also bear in mind that medical education has at least two components.
1. Gaining the knowledge and skills to heal people (wouldn't it be great if this was the sole purpose)
and
2. Gaining PERMISSION to heal people by virtue of a sheet of parchment that one gets after jumping through hoops and playing a silly game of obedience.
Once this finally clicks for you, it will lead you to ask dangerous questions that will begin to free you from "sheephood"
Realize that the process of going through medical school is a process which restricts any competing ways from challenging it. If 100 smart people thought of 100 new ways to try training doctors, common sense would suggest that even if 99 of the novel ways are inferior to the status quo, there's got to be at least 1 innovative thinker who can come up with a better way of doing this.
But the way things stand, it is illegal for anybody to come up with a competing way.
Also bear in mind that medical education has at least two components.
1. Gaining the knowledge and skills to heal people (wouldn't it be great if this was the sole purpose)
and
2. Gaining PERMISSION to heal people by virtue of a sheet of parchment that one gets after jumping through hoops and playing a silly game of obedience.
Once this finally clicks for you, it will lead you to ask dangerous questions that will begin to free you from "sheephood"
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Guess I'm a sheep. I legitimately enjoyed my entire time in medical school. Though I didn't come straight through and I had no idealistic views of medicine coming in.
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Doesn't make you a sheep. To each his own. I'm just glad you didn't come at me with how Dr. Zhivago held his didactic sessions at a waterfall and stroked your hair as he outlined the anatomical dysfunctions of your super interesting patients that day on your belly with melted chocolate and frankincense.
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I bet you were just excited by this.
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Ah yes, Plan A of the Attack the Messenger Playbook. Care to tell me anything I said that makes your assertion have any validity whatsoever? The wealth is still there, is it not? If so, why am I so unhappy? I'll await your non-canned answer.
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You need to take some kind of mental break before the boards, even if it is only for a few days. Step I is crucial to your future success and you only get one chance. I never experienced the burn out you are feeling but I can say that I did enjoy 3rd/4th year much more than 1st/2nd. Pony up and try to get through!
Survivor DO
No no.
I apologize if you interpreted it that way.
Enjoying does not make anybody a sheep. I enjoyed medical school / residency / fellowship for the most part.
I was referring to those who accept that the current medical education system is the only way possible to train doctors, or even those who think "well it has its flaws, but it is the best way".
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I haven't really enjoyed most of medical school. I think it's too much hoops and not enough gaining skills to do the profession. But like the poster said above, it's more about the person you become than the profession you are in. I don't believe in this being a "moral profession" - there are just moral people, not moral professions. The same goes for all the qualities we aspire to.
I think if we sat down with 100 smart medical students, probably 80 or more could think of a better way to do this.
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This made my day
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kindasorta, couldn't have said it better myself. What a waste of time it all is. I tell people, if you actually had a preceptor that gave a s#$@ you could learn in 2 months what it takes us to "self learn" in 2 years. Such a joke, med school could easily be 3 years, gotta love having to do 3 years of general IM to get into a 3 year fellowship to specialize as well, very very efficient system we have. You'd think this system would somehow create a doctor shortage???
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How do you really feel, man? It's important not to hold back.
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ohhhh yeah. 6 years to be a cardiologist??
you could learn it in 1-2 years easily. easily!
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Good god at least make it 2year general med, 2 year cardio. 6 years is overkill
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I guess I'm a sheep.
I didn't mind MS1/2, but probably because I spent more time working on side projects than studying the class material. MS3 I felt fairly engaged and learned the ins and outs of the hospital and how to get stuff done. MS4 was further honing of skills and then I was gone for interviews for 2 months, came back and hung out on services that I wanted to learn more about and then matched/graduated.
I think that a medical student can get a lot out of the current medical education system and can make M3/M4 pretty enjoyable/worthwhile. But that having been said, it requires them to be very proactive and take almost full responsibility for their education instead of it being mandated. To me this is a serious problem. I think that students get shafted and lose out if they aren't aggressive about their learning which most are by default, not.
My father taught me to go to every charge nurse at the start of a rotation and ask them for the 10 most common reasons an intern gets called. Then read about the problem and learned practically how to solve them. A lot of them are stupid understanding pain meds and how they are ordered or anti-emetics, but then you get into chest pain, cold feet, fevers, white counts, hyperkalemia etc. I also started carrying team pagers as an M4 which really helped expand my education. I would take the calls from nurses and tell them that I'd come by and write an order for whatever. Then I'd write the order on a triplicate order form, take it to the fellow/resident, tell them about the call and ask them to sign my order and then drop it in the chart. This of course could only be done because we had paper charts. Obviously, as soon as you throw EMRs into the mix medical students lose out.
I didn't mind MS1/2, but probably because I spent more time working on side projects than studying the class material. MS3 I felt fairly engaged and learned the ins and outs of the hospital and how to get stuff done. MS4 was further honing of skills and then I was gone for interviews for 2 months, came back and hung out on services that I wanted to learn more about and then matched/graduated.
I think that a medical student can get a lot out of the current medical education system and can make M3/M4 pretty enjoyable/worthwhile. But that having been said, it requires them to be very proactive and take almost full responsibility for their education instead of it being mandated. To me this is a serious problem. I think that students get shafted and lose out if they aren't aggressive about their learning which most are by default, not.
My father taught me to go to every charge nurse at the start of a rotation and ask them for the 10 most common reasons an intern gets called. Then read about the problem and learned practically how to solve them. A lot of them are stupid understanding pain meds and how they are ordered or anti-emetics, but then you get into chest pain, cold feet, fevers, white counts, hyperkalemia etc. I also started carrying team pagers as an M4 which really helped expand my education. I would take the calls from nurses and tell them that I'd come by and write an order for whatever. Then I'd write the order on a triplicate order form, take it to the fellow/resident, tell them about the call and ask them to sign my order and then drop it in the chart. This of course could only be done because we had paper charts. Obviously, as soon as you throw EMRs into the mix medical students lose out.
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Must be tiring being that bitter all the time.
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3rd year is way better than the first two years by a long shot.
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yessir, but the whole medical system is silly in general... effin bureaucracies. everytime i learn something during rotations that i realize i could have learned in a minute if someone just told me - this happens way too often.
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Just to offer some perspective as a non-trad who's worked a few blue collar jobs before going back to school. Bureaucracy is everywhere, and in most jobs, where you are lucky to pull in $40-$50k a year with a degree, your boss is probably less qualified than you, makes a lot more money than you do, has a better lifestyle, and makes your life hell because he/she can. The job sucks, the pay sucks, the politics suck, and at the end of the day, when people ask you what you do for a living, you basically respond with "I shovel **** into a garbage can."
Yeah, it'd be nice to be the boss, until you find out that be that guy you have to literally BE that guy... Who wants that? Not even his wife wants him. 👎
I'm sure med school is hard as hell, and I'm sure that it sometimes seems pointless, monotonous, and even asinine. But remember that you could be experiencing all of those same things in the same crap jobs that most of your fellow Americans work in. At the end of the day, you'll take home a decent paycheck (even if it's still well over the horizon), you'll have job security, and when someone asks what you do you can say "I do my damnedest to treat sick people."
The process you guys are enduring separates the wheat from the chaff.
Yeah, it'd be nice to be the boss, until you find out that be that guy you have to literally BE that guy... Who wants that? Not even his wife wants him. 👎
I'm sure med school is hard as hell, and I'm sure that it sometimes seems pointless, monotonous, and even asinine. But remember that you could be experiencing all of those same things in the same crap jobs that most of your fellow Americans work in. At the end of the day, you'll take home a decent paycheck (even if it's still well over the horizon), you'll have job security, and when someone asks what you do you can say "I do my damnedest to treat sick people."
The process you guys are enduring separates the wheat from the chaff.
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^ As another non-trad, I completely agree. I worked a few mindless clerical jobs between undergrad and medical school. My crappiest days at school are still better than the mind-numbingly boring crap I used to do before.
But OP, I feel you. I'm getting sick of being in the classroom. I'm looking forward to third year. I'm not sure I'll find it immensely better, but it'll be a change of pace.
But OP, I feel you. I'm getting sick of being in the classroom. I'm looking forward to third year. I'm not sure I'll find it immensely better, but it'll be a change of pace.
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While I didn't mind m1 and m2, I was pretty burned or by the end. 3rd year, despite its own issues, is much better. Your actually involved in patient care, learn a ton, and generally meet a lot of cool faculty and residents. There are downsides: less free time, being there without having anything to do or just watching/shadowing, the occasional jerk attending or resident, more subjective grading, etc.but on the whole or is much better.
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I think this is probably the biggest key to making sure that medical school is a complete ****show and getting some sort of satisfaction out of the career. Also learning not to take anything too seriously helps quite a bit - this thread pretty much demonstrates how big of a joke medical school generally is.
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I think a lot of people don't know how to be proactive also. I certainly wouldn't have known the advice you just gave without reading it here.
+1. I think there are 2 different questions. Whether or not we can learn to enjoy this process and is medical education efficient. Medical school has become more about tradition than doing what's efficient.
A story I heard: There was a mother at home making ham for the family and she cut off both ends of the ham before putting it in the oven. One of her friends asked her why she did it because a lot of meat was wasted, she said - "you know, I don't know. That's how I've done it for years. That's the way my mother always did it." So she called her mom and asked her the same question, she responded, "I don't know either, that's how grandma always did it." Finally they called grandma and asked her why she cut both ends off of the ham, grandma said, "Because the oven I have is too small, I have to cut both ends off the fit it in there."
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I agree that medical school is much better than a mindless clerical job, but I don't think this is a fair comparison because a person who is capable of getting into medical school doesn't have that type of job as their only other option. If you want to make a fair comparison, you should look at medicine vs other professional paths such as law, engineering, business, science, etc.
