Anyone have questions about OMFS residency or the application process?

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CMistry,
Do you think the "65 magic number" rule will still apply for the CBSE exam in years to come?

 

[CMistry]

CMistry,
Do you think the "65 magic number" rule will still apply for the CBSE exam in years to come?

To be honest I'm not sure it even applies right now.

 

[Expert]

OMFS programs provide very broad surgical training of the head and neck region. The AAOMS site even states that cosmetic facial surgery (like rhino, bleph, etc.) falls under the scope of what an OMFS does. Yet, realistically, does an OMFS actually get to perform facial cosmetic surgery all that frequently in private practice?

 

[CMistry]

OMFS programs provide very broad surgical training of the head and neck region. The AAOMS site even states that cosmetic facial surgery (like rhino, bleph, etc.) falls under the scope of what an OMFS does. Yet, realistically, does an OMFS actually get to perform facial cosmetic surgery all that frequently in private practice?

Depending upon where you practice, it can be the center of your practice. There are even a few OMFS who limit their scope to cosmetic surgery. You probably won't have much success doing that near any large city.

 

[arkenstone]

OMFS programs provide very broad surgical training of the head and neck region. The AAOMS site even states that cosmetic facial surgery (like rhino, bleph, etc.) falls under the scope of what an OMFS does. Yet, realistically, does an OMFS actually get to perform facial cosmetic surgery all that frequently in private practice?

I don't have the experience to give a great answer, but elective cosmetic surgery is such a different ballgame business-wise. From what I understand most of the other stuff an oral surgeon does relies on referrals or hospital relationships, but a lot of cosmetics is going to rely on you marketing directly to the public. That can be difficult to keep up if only a small part of your practice requires that. (And it doesn't help that plastic surgeons are a largely ruthless bunch who will either run you out of town or set up a highly ranking website saying how you're only a dentist trying to operate on people's faces. Maybe include an image of a shocked girl covering her nose with her hands--for dramatic effect 🙂

 

[monsieurwise]

I just started dental school at UPenn, but I just received terrible grades. About three of my classes for the first semester would turn out to be B. This is due to my terrible performance in my first tests and my subsequent tests could not bring up my grades. Now I have discovered my own way of studying and is performing significantly better, but I surely could not compete for the top 10 ranking anymore because my classmates got honors/A on all of those classes.
So my question is this: if (if) I can somehow manage to raise my grades significantly with really good score to where the top of my class are currently but cannot make the cut to the top 10 or top 20 ranking due to these initial Bs (I think those top people will just get straight As their 4 years here), will the OMFS admission committee look at my improvements (like dental school admission) or they will just look at my ranking? Does this mean that I am permanently out of the race?
Thank you so much!!

 

[CMistry]

I just started dental school at UPenn, but I just received terrible grades. About three of my classes for the first semester would turn out to be B. This is due to my terrible performance in my first tests and my subsequent tests could not bring up my grades. Now I have discovered my own way of studying and is performing significantly better, but I surely could not compete for the top 10 ranking anymore because my classmates got honors/A on all of those classes.
So my question is this: if (if) I can somehow manage to raise my grades significantly with really good score to where the top of my class are currently but cannot make the cut to the top 10 or top 20 ranking due to these initial Bs (I think those top people will just get straight As their 4 years here), will the OMFS admission committee look at my improvements (like dental school admission) or they will just look at my ranking? Does this mean that I am permanently out of the race?
Thank you so much!!

Programs will only look at your ranking. You do not (by any means) need to be in the top 10% of your class to match into OMFS. I would recommend you get the best grades you can and reassess when application time comes around.

 

[monsieurwise]

That is so sad =(. One or two initial missteps can put me out of the race for top 10 permanently. Can't complain though, my fault, I need to make up for it. Do they also look at the medical board exam grades to assess my qualification as well? And they just don't look at my grades at all but just the ranking? My school will only rank the top 20 people and the rest are unranked, so if I am unranked my chances would be much less right?
Thanks so much for your fast response!!!

 

[Expert]

What are your thoughts on traveling OMFS - also known as, in-house specialists?? Do you think that this will be the new trend for practicing oral surgeons in the future?? Any thoughts/comments regarding this?

 

[CMistry]

That is so sad =(. One or two initial missteps can put me out of the race for top 10 permanently. Can't complain though, my fault, I need to make up for it. Do they also look at the medical board exam grades to assess my qualification as well?

Yes

And they just don't look at my grades at all but just the ranking?

For the most part, that is correct. Program directors do not have the time to look through 100 transcripts in detail.

My school will only rank the top 20 people and the rest are unranked, so if I am unranked my chances would be much less right?

As I mentioned before, being in the top 10% isn't as important as SDN makes it seem.

What are your thoughts on traveling OMFS - also known as, in-house specialists?? Do you think that this will be the new trend for practicing oral surgeons in the future?? Any thoughts/comments regarding this?

Mobile practitioners have been around for a long time and will continue to be around. I do not think much has changed nor will it. The majority of OMFS still work in their own private practices.

 

[Expert]

Do you have any plans to pursue any fellowships after your residency? Why or why not?

 

[CMistry]

Do you have any plans to pursue any fellowships after your residency? Why or why not?

I go back and forth. There's really not one specific area of OMFS I'm interested in enough to spend 2 years full-time. I really like everything we do as a specialty.

 

[Silent Cool]

.

 

[amali]

Would a great NBME score help with poor class ranking?

Also, how tough is it to land an internship in general? Have you seen anyone do an internship and still not match?

 

[dentistinfuture]

Check your messages, and yes I would definitely recommend you extern at those programs if possible.

Hey CMistry, I'm interested in female-friendly programs as well! Would you mind shooting me a message with that info? Also, do you know about maternity leave policies for residencies in general?

 

[CMistry]

Hey CMistry, I'm interested in female-friendly programs as well! Would you mind shooting me a message with that info? Also, do you know about maternity leave policies for residencies in general?

At this point (3 years later), I'm not sure my input on this subject is accurate. From what I remember it was WHC/ Medstar, UMaryland, and CWRU. I have no idea about maternity leave policies, sorry. You should keep in mind that these are very small residency programs, and having one resident out is a big hit (i.e. don't be surprised if some programs don't like this question).

 

[480640]

CMistry how many exams does one need to take, and when during dental school should these be taken? I can't seem to find an OMS application timeline.

 

[CMistry]

CMistry how many exams does one need to take, and when during dental school should these be taken? I can't seem to find an OMS application timeline.

You have to take the NBDE parts 1 & 2 to become a dentist period. When you take these is school-dependant but generally they are taken after second year (part 1) and during fourth year (part 2). You have to take the CBSE (ideally in your second or third year of DS) to apply to OMFS. If you match into a 6yr OMFS program you will also take the USMLE parts 1, 2 & 3 for medical licensing. Finally, you will take written and oral boards if you want board certification in OMFS.

 

[DentalDoge]

Thank you @CMistry for answering questions.

If you wouldn't mind, can you please list the aspects residency programs are looking for when we are matching into the program (externship, CBSE scores, leadership roles, etc)?

If at all possible, I would like to PM you for more detail.

 

[CMistry]

Thank you @CMistry for answering questions.

If you wouldn't mind, can you please list the aspects residency programs are looking for when we are matching into the program (externship, CBSE scores, leadership roles, etc)?

If at all possible, I would like to PM you for more detail.

The order varies between programs, but in general:
- Interview
- CBSE score
- Class rank
- Externships
- LORs
- Extracurriculars

 

[OMS Administrator]

I go back and forth. There's really not one specific area of OMFS I'm interested in enough to spend 2 years full-time. I really like everything we do as a specialty.

Come check out our full scope OMS Fellowship. www.ofsinstitute.com (Fellowship tab) You'll be cutting every day (first assist). You'll rotate with outside services as well as assisting with our 6 full-time attendings. Call our past fellows and see our numbers of surgical cases.

 

[Silent Cool]

I just started dental school at UPenn, but I just received terrible grades. About three of my classes for the first semester would turn out to be B. This is due to my terrible performance in my first tests and my subsequent tests could not bring up my grades. Now I have discovered my own way of studying and is performing significantly better, but I surely could not compete for the top 10 ranking anymore because my classmates got honors/A on all of those classes.
So my question is this: if (if) I can somehow manage to raise my grades significantly with really good score to where the top of my class are currently but cannot make the cut to the top 10 or top 20 ranking due to these initial Bs (I think those top people will just get straight As their 4 years here), will the OMFS admission committee look at my improvements (like dental school admission) or they will just look at my ranking? Does this mean that I am permanently out of the race?
Thank you so much!!

mon,

Keep in mind that UPENN does not rank outside of the top 10, so you don't have to worry much. Going to UPENN more or less guarantees you a spot, provided that you don't fail anything and that you apply broadly.

 

[DentalDoge]

mon,

Keep in mind that UPENN does not rank outside of the top 10, so you don't have to worry much. Going to UPENN more or less guarantees you a spot, provided that you don't fail anything and that you apply broadly.

Is that so? I was under the impression school prestige wasn't a factor in OMS programs.

 

[Silent Cool]

Is that so? I was under the impression school prestige wasn't a factor in OMS programs.

Well, the point is that that someone's class rank won't show up outside of the top ten at UPENN, so the programs won't know how well you performed (relatively speaking) unless you were in that select group. I think that ordinarily students from the more prestigious dental schools are at an advantage for applying to any specialty, in part because of the absence (or near absence) of rankings. I think it is also generally understood that students at more prestigious dental schools had higher grades upon entrance and as such are more highly regarded. Again, anecdotally that seems to be true from reading these forums.

 

[DentalDoge]

Well, the point is that that someone's class rank won't show up outside of the top ten at UPENN, so the programs won't know how well you performed (relatively speaking) unless you were in that select group. I think that ordinarily students from the more prestigious dental schools are at an advantage for applying to any specialty, in part because of the absence (or near absence) of rankings. I think it is also generally understood that students at more prestigious dental schools had higher grades upon entrance and as such are more highly regarded. Again, anecdotally that seems to be true from reading these forums.

Ill have to look deeper in to this. If this is true, I have a steeper hill to climb.

Though I have strong doubts that this is true, at least the reason for a "guaranteed" spot, especially an OMS one.

 

[Silent Cool]

Ill have to look deeper in to this. If this is true, I have a steeper hill to climb.

Though I have strong doubts that this is true, at least the reason for a "guaranteed" spot, especially an OMS one.

Anyone who goes to a school that ranks all of its students has a steeper hill to climb. Part of the perk of going to Harvard, UCLA, UPENN, etc.., is that you are unranked. That's a clear advantage, and the message is also clear: 'our students are among the best; we don't need to rank them.'

There were something like 17 people who matched Ortho at UPENN a year or two back. 17!!! Even if all were at the top, that would still push the 17 outside of the top 10%, because I believe the class size at UPENN is or was about 120. Moreover, there were of course others who matched into different specialties at UPENN, such that something like 40% of the class specialized. The figures are similar for other elite schools.

The point being that attending one of the non-ranking schools gives one a clear advantage.

 

[DentalDoge]

Anyone who goes to a school that ranks all of its students has a steeper hill to climb. Part of the perk of going to Harvard, UCLA, UPENN, etc.., is that you are unranked. That's a clear advantage, and the message is also clear: 'our students are among the best; we don't need to rank them.'

There were something like 17 people who matched Ortho at UPENN a year or two back. 17!!! Even if all were at the top, that would still push the 17 outside of the top 10%, because I believe the class size at UPENN is or was about 120. Moreover, there were of course others who matched into different specialties at UPENN, such that something like 40% of the class specialized. The figures are similar for other elite schools.

The point being that attending one of the non-ranking schools gives one a clear advantage.

Are you speaking from experience? Cause, "our students are among the best; we don't need to rank them" is just fantastically pretentious.

It's no secret that dental schools that also have very prestigious med schools pushes their students hard to specialize. But it's incorrect to assume all non-ranking schools give applicants advantages when matching for specialty programs, as there are plenty other schools that also uses the same grading model.

I think those students got matched because they're actually good candidates, not because they graduated from an "elite" school. I also heard that non-ranked can work against some applicants.

Either way, I will have my answers soon enough.

 

[Bereno]

I think what Silent Cool is trying to say is that there is a very strong correlation between schools that are unranked and very high match rates. Additionally, there is a very high correlation between school prestige and schools that are unranked. Knowing this, it is clear that there is also a correlation between school prestige and very high match rates. 🙂

 

[aqz]

Well since everything seems to be I heard of this or I heard of that these days...I'd like to add that I've heard OMS residency programs have recently shifted towards preferring applicants coming from a ranked/graded school system (with high marks obviously) as compared to applicants from a non-ranked, high prestige system (even with massive extracurriculars). Specifically, this is coming from a first year at HSDM who attended a meeting with a panel of 4th years all echoing that sentiment.

But honestly, at the end of the day... just do your best and you'll be fine.

 

[Silent Cool]

Are you speaking from experience? Cause, "our students are among the best; we don't need to rank them" is just fantastically pretentious.

It's no secret that dental schools that also have very prestigious med schools pushes their students hard to specialize. But it's incorrect to assume all non-ranking schools give applicants advantages when matching for specialty programs, as there are plenty other schools that also uses the same grading model.

I think those students got matched because they're actually good candidates, not because they graduated from an "elite" school. I also heard that non-ranked can work against some applicants.

Either way, I will have my answers soon enough.

My point is that residency programs have no way of knowing if candidates from PENN, Harvard, etc..., were "good candidates" because there is no class rank. Likewise, what used to be the "great equalizer," the board exams, is now pass/fail. (It used to be scored). For all the residency directors know, the candidates from unranked schools could have been dead last in their class, but residency programs would never know. That's the advantage of going to an unranked school, most of which tend to be the more prestigious schools.

 

[gn4]

Well since everything seems to be I heard of this or I heard of that these days...I'd like to add that I've heard OMS residency programs have recently shifted towards preferring applicants coming from a ranked/graded school system (with high marks obviously) as compared to applicants from a non-ranked, high prestige system (even with massive extracurriculars). Specifically, this is coming from a first year at HSDM who attended a meeting with a panel of 4th years all echoing that sentiment.

But honestly, at the end of the day... just do your best and you'll be fine.

oh that's interesting. I only got that sentiment from the Ortho kids at my school. Ortho had a rough year matching this year and what we were told is because program directors don't like that our grades are pass/fail and we don't have a class ranking outside the top ten. The OMFS kids said this doesn't really affect us because the CBSE is the great equalizer(Ortho doesn't have a test like this(GRE can't really help you, it can only hurt you)). So they say it's kind of to our advantage to be at a non-ranking school provided we do decently on the CBSE. Just passing what I've been hearing.

 

[aqz]

oh that's interesting. I only got that sentiment from the Ortho kids at my school. Ortho had a rough year matching this year and what we were told is because program directors don't like that our grades are pass/fail and we don't have a class ranking outside the top ten. The OMFS kids said this doesn't really affect us because the CBSE is the great equalizer(Ortho doesn't have a test like this(GRE can't really help you, it can only hurt you)). So they say it's kind of to our advantage to be at a non-ranking school provided we do decently on the CBSE. Just passing what I've been hearing.

That makes a lot of sense. I'd just have to wager that given two CBSE scores that are similar, the applicant with the top 10% ranking would seem more qualified than one whom you could guess is anywhere from rank #11 to rank #last. Especially because I believe the consensus is that ranking > CBSE scores.

But still, that makes a lot of sense.

 

[Contach]

mon,

Keep in mind that UPENN does not rank outside of the top 10, so you don't have to worry much. Going to UPENN more or less guarantees you a spot, provided that you don't fail anything and that you apply broadly.

Okay relax.. it was not that easy at Penn... We had a few people in our class who didn't match.
It was not handed to us. Those of who did match busted our assess.

There are students in my graduating class (Class of 2013) who had to do 2 intern years to get in to a program. A few others did one intern year, and were still not able to get in to OMFS. And I can name three people right now who applied in our 4th year, didn't get in, and are now doing general dentistry. And I can also think of some people who graduated, either did private practice, or GPRs, and have thought about applying, but haven't... because.... being a penn grad doesn't give you a carte blanche!

 

[Contach]

My point is that residency programs have no way of knowing if candidates from PENN, Harvard, etc..., were "good candidates" because there is no class rank. Likewise, what used to be the "great equalizer," the board exams, is now pass/fail. (It used to be scored). For all the residency directors know, the candidates from unranked schools could have been dead last in their class, but residency programs would never know. That's the advantage of going to an unranked school, most of which tend to be the more prestigious schools.

We still get a GPA at Penn (Penn is not an acronym and should not be written in all uppercase... Penn stands for University of Pennsylvania, and is sometimes abbreviated Penn, or UPenn, but never PENN). And when OMFS (OMFS should be written in all uppercase, because it is an acronym....) programs can look at their current residents, and say that our previous resident from Penn got a 3.9, a then these applicants who have a 3.9 from Penn will likely perform at a similar level - this helps them! OMFS programs will often have many students from certain schools, and this is the reason: they are familiar with what these students know coming out and can expect a similar quality.

 

[Contach]

Anyone who goes to a school that ranks all of its students has a steeper hill to climb. Part of the perk of going to Harvard, UCLA, UPENN, etc.., is that you are unranked. That's a clear advantage, and the message is also clear: 'our students are among the best; we don't need to rank them.'

There were something like 17 people who matched Ortho at UPENN a year or two back. 17!!! Even if all were at the top, that would still push the 17 outside of the top 10%, because I believe the class size at UPENN is or was about 120. Moreover, there were of course others who matched into different specialties at UPENN, such that something like 40% of the class specialized. The figures are similar for other elite schools.

The point being that attending one of the non-ranking schools gives one a clear advantage.

I agree with this.... And to back it up, this top 40% of the class will have better board scores than the top 10% at other schools. So, maybe it is justified?

 

[Silent Cool]

I agree with this.... And to back it up, this top 40% of the class will have better board scores than the top 10% at other schools. So, maybe it is justified?

Aren't the boards Pass/Fail now?

Edit: NM, you're talking about the CBSE. Then that's probably true. The higher performing students matched.

 

[Miley Cyrus.]

Aren't the boards Pass/Fail now?

Edit: NM, you're talking about the CBSE. Then that's probably true. The higher performing students matched.

The boards are going back to score. Not sure when, but I know they are switching back. In the mean time, they have some advanced dental test they will be administering for those caught in-between.

 

[Screwtape]

We still get a GPA at Penn (Penn is not an acronym and should not be written in all uppercase... Penn stands for University of Pennsylvania, and is sometimes abbreviated Penn, or UPenn, but never PENN). And when OMFS (OMFS should be written in all uppercase, because it is an acronym....) programs can look at their current residents, and say that our previous resident from Penn got a 3.9, a then these applicants who have a 3.9 from Penn will likely perform at a similar level - this helps them! OMFS programs will often have many students from certain schools, and this is the reason: they are familiar with what these students know coming out and can expect a similar quality.

Well since we are being pedantic here... OMFS is an initialism, NOT an acronym. #fighttheignorance

 

[Racquetball3r]

The boards are going back to score. Not sure when, but I know they are switching back. In the mean time, they have some advanced dental test they will be administering for those caught in-between.

Just curious, how do you know boards are going to be scored again? Where did you hear that?

 

[Houston1]

Can you give a list of the best 10-15 four-year programs in your opinion? Looking for a good broad scope program.
Also, what do you recommend for selecting professors for PPIs versus PE's (professional evaluation)? Do you recommend OMFS faculty for either?

 

[CMistry]

Can you give a list of the best 10-15 four-year programs in your opinion? Looking for a good broad scope program.
Also, what do you recommend for selecting professors for PPIs versus PE's (professional evaluation)? Do you recommend OMFS faculty for either?

Sorry, I don't have an answer to your first question. Some of the 4-yr programs I visited that I felt were strong and had a good scope were Medstar/Washington Hospital Center, VCU, Emory, and Jackson Memorial.

Ideally OMFS faculty would write your PEFs. If you can get other OMFS faculty to fill in your PPIs (and score you well), go for it. Otherwise I think it's fine to pick dental school faculty to fill in your PPIs.

 

[480640]

.

 

[CMistry]

@CMistry
Have you made any progress in your decision to pursue a fellowship?

I started residency with the intention of doing a fellowship; at this point I am no longer interested.

@CMistry
Do you recommend using Pathoma, First Aid, and Qbanks in addition to the lecture's powerpoints throughout the first 2 years of dental school to maintain a high GPA and prepare for the CBSE concurently?

Sure? Sounds like a good setup to me. I didn't take the CBSE but I did take the NBME and USMLE and those study aids are what 90% of people use.

@CMistry
Is practicing in private practice ~2 days, working at a hospital 2 days, teaching at a dental-medical school, and conducting research realistically feasible in a week?

It's possible; it's not likely. There are very few "part-time" academians in OMFS (other than those teaching exodontia and implants); and very few of them split their time 50/50 between the two.

 

[Houston1]

Do you know if 4-yr OMFS graduates have a difficult time getting hospital privileges due to lack of MD? Or if there are any limitations in regards to opportunity after graduation? Is it impractical for a 4-year grad to establish a career doing 1/2 private practice and 1/2 hospital?

 

[CMistry]

Do you know if 4-yr OMFS graduates have a difficult time getting hospital privileges due to lack of MD? Or if there are any limitations in regards to opportunity after graduation? Is it impractical for a 4-year grad to establish a career doing 1/2 private practice and 1/2 hospital?

I have never heard of a 4yr graduate actually having difficulty obtaining privileges for core OMFS procedures. I have heard of one who could not obtain privileges for a rhinoplasty / other facial cosmetic procedures, but that may have been due to his residency training (the actual #s of procedures) or state regulations.

 

[thistle_burr]

Hi CMistry,

Thanks for answering these questions. What are your thoughts about doing OMFS-related research vs. plastics research vs. EENT research. Do programs care specifically about OMFS-specific research?

What are your thoughts also regarding letters of rec from an OMFS, vs EENT, plastics.

Also, if you still have that list of your recommended programs, I am wondering if you would be willing to message them to me also. Really appreciate it, thank you!

Thanks!

 

[CMistry]

Hi CMistry,

Thanks for answering these questions. What are your thoughts about doing OMFS-related research vs. plastics research vs. EENT research. Do programs care specifically about OMFS-specific research?

What are your thoughts also regarding letters of rec from an OMFS, vs EENT, plastics.

Also, if you still have that list of your recommended programs, I am wondering if you would be willing to message them to me also. Really appreciate it, thank you!

Thanks!

I think OMFS-specific research is better than having plastics or ENT research. It shows commitment to the field and also provides a topic to discuss during interviews. That being said, any research is better than no research, and plastics/ENT are closely related and your topic can still be within our scope.

Regarding the letters, they should be from an OMFS. No question about that.

 

[Mr.Scalpel]

Hey there Cmistry, I would appreciate your opinion on the following question:

For people applying to "strong" programs like Mayo clinic, Parkland, Casewestern, LSU... would someone from big name schools like, say Upenn, Ucsf, Tufts, have any more chances than someone from, say Washington university or UMN, Creighton or nova, given that their GPA, letter of recomendations, CBSE score (over 65) and Class rank are about the same? I might be wrong about the specific schools i wrote but you get the point...

 

[CMistry]

Hey there Cmistry, I would appreciate your opinion on the following question:

For people applying to "strong" programs like Mayo clinic, Parkland, Casewestern, LSU... would someone from big name schools like, say Upenn, Ucsf, Tufts, have any more chances than someone from, say Washington university or UMN, Creighton or nova, given that their GPA, letter of recomendations, CBSE score (over 65) and Class rank are about the same? I might be wrong about the specific schools i wrote but you get the point...

Answered in your thread.

 

[Mr.Scalpel]

Thanks a lot pal!