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I do not agree. We have women in our 6 year OMFS program all the time. And we do not do our big surgeries on Fiday. Let's leave the blanket statements elsewhere. Too many urban legends on this board.
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Anyone have questions about OMFS residency or the application process?
Started by CMistry
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I can't think of a reason it would help you if you're planning on private practice.
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Yes I have seen a top 10% rank + great LORs and externships make up for a sub 65 (one guy even had 59). These guys got into decent programs at baylor and fresno if I remember correctly.
From my limited experience and talking to the residents I met during my externships, not breaking a 65 would put you at a severe disadvantage for 6-year programs, but not 4 year programs. A high class rank will definitely get you some interviews though.
Your GPA is fantastic, I'm sure your class rank reflects that (top 1-3?). Your CBSE score is not horrible by any means, but it's not exceptional. As you know it will be harder for you as an "international applicant". As mentioned above, 6yr programs will be a little more difficult due to your nationality your CBSE score. That being said, I think they're still within your reach. I don't think you'll have a problem matching into a decent program, just don't set your sights on any one place.
Yes and no. During the screening process programs will rule you out based on a low CBSE score (I'm not saying low 60s is "low") or a low class rank. One will not compensate for the other (nobody has time to look through 100+ applications with that detail). Once you get an interview it will probably help you when it comes time for them to rank you.
I really appreciate you doing this CMistry, and would love your input, or anyone else's who feels they can help me out. I'm a D2, interested in OMFS, but am not high in rank. I have been slowly ascending, and plan to continue, but will likely only graduate in the top third of my class (not top 20, certainly not top 10). I am not involved in extra curriculars, though I have no aversion to them, just haven't really been interested. No research, either. What can I do over the next couple years to set myself up to match at a 4 or 6 year surgery residency? I'm willing to make changes and can put in the effort, I'm just not really sure where to begin.
I know lots of part time faculty teaching orthognathics. What program are you in anyway? Would like to know how you have so much info on how other programs work. Most of the residents here have barely enough time to sleep, not sure how you have so much free time that you have accumulated all this info on outside programs.
Top 1/3 is just fine. Make sure you do well on the CBSE, spend time with your home program, and do some externships. If you can demonstrate a steady increase in class rank I think you can impress many people.
I am at Parkland / UT Southwestern. My information comes from externships I did as a student, interviews I attended, and colleagues at other programs.
Cmistry is at one of the best programs in the country. It is overshadowed only by the juggernaut that is LSU-Shreveport.
I'm trying to plan an externship in Shreveport. Which month do you think is the best month to be there? I don't want to come when the residents are new to the building and too stressed out to teach me anything, but I want to see a lot of things. Obviously, I need to take the CBSE first, but I want to plan in advance bc as soon as we take the CBSE, our school lets us do externships. BTW, a couple of the kids at my school who externed there over the summer said they loved the program. They said they had a great time.
Except Dallas is about a billion times more desirable to live in than Shreveport.
IMHO the best time to visit Shreveport is after the first 5-6 months and when we're on trauma. After that amount of time the interns should be fairly comfortable on call, and for externs trauma just means you'll get to do lacerations and see us fix a bunch of faces at LSU. We had an extern show up last year in March when I was on call...I believe he arrived at 10pm and by midnight he was finishing up his first laceration closure. So ideally January or March are the best times. If you're going to come on an non-trauma month then you should plan for a 2 week externship so that you get over to willis-knighton which is where the majority of our surgeries tend to be.
The least ideal times are the holidays (the attendings go out of town and the hospital just becomes slow) and february since there tend to be a lot of conferences that the attendings go to.
If you have any intention of applying to Shreveport then it's really a good idea to have a solid CBSE score by the time that you extern. Because we currently don't do any med school before taking Step 1 we are forced to take people who can beat the test before they show up. And the attendings will ask you your score while you're externing, and i'm under the opinion that you only get one chance to make a first impression.
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Ya...guess you have to make the decision on whether you want to be a small fish in a big pond...or a Great White Shark in a bath-tub 🙂 If I lived in Dallas I'd still be stuck in my room reading most nights, and eating at chipotle on the weekends...same as I do in Shreveport.
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Was the extern. Can confirm. Can't really confirm Sublimazing eats chipotle on the weekends, but he does enjoy being a shark in a bathtub. Anyway, go in March. It's a great externship experience. All of the attendings and residents are extern-friendly and like to get you involved/get to know you. I didn't get too much face time with Dr. Ghali because he left for half the week but I did get to spend a lot of time with Dr. Yeoh.
Like Sublimazing said, go for two weeks so you get over to WK and see more of the attendings' surgeries.
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So from what I've gathered (and please correct me if I am wrong):
=> even if you go to a residency program with lots of H/N onc you still need to do a fellowship to work in a H/N cancer team at a major medical center (same goes for craniofacial teams)
=> there prob are not enough orthognathic cases to really make a living off just that since those cases are mostly split with plastics fellows too
=> in terms of OMFS orthognathics the majority of cases are LeForts and BSSOs
=> get comfy with bread and butter because that is likely what almost all of us will be doing regardless of program
=> most dental students chose programs based on location or other superficial factors and do not really know what they are getting themselves into at a particular program until they are in their training
Also outside of the LSUs and Parkland what programs do you consider good 6-year programs? I heard that some good programs (that have good case loads and allow residents to cut) are NYU, Emory, UNC, Jax, Penn, Case. Thoughts?
=> even if you go to a residency program with lots of H/N onc you still need to do a fellowship to work in a H/N cancer team at a major medical center (same goes for craniofacial teams)
=> there prob are not enough orthognathic cases to really make a living off just that since those cases are mostly split with plastics fellows too
=> in terms of OMFS orthognathics the majority of cases are LeForts and BSSOs
=> get comfy with bread and butter because that is likely what almost all of us will be doing regardless of program
=> most dental students chose programs based on location or other superficial factors and do not really know what they are getting themselves into at a particular program until they are in their training
Also outside of the LSUs and Parkland what programs do you consider good 6-year programs? I heard that some good programs (that have good case loads and allow residents to cut) are NYU, Emory, UNC, Jax, Penn, Case. Thoughts?
True.
If you practice in a big city there could be enough cases to keep you busy full-time (your competition will be OMFS, not really plastics), but it's typically not as profitable as T&T so most practitioners aren't interested in doing it full-time.
Yes. The majority of cases performed nationally are single jaw surgeries.
Absolutely, but this is by choice; driven by income and lifestyle. There is plenty of need for other OMFS services (path, TMJ, nerve repair, etc.).
I don't think that's true. Most people I met while interviewing were more concerned with how much they will cut or what kinds of cases a program offered. Of course location is an important factor as you'll be spending 4-6 years of your young adult life there, but it wasn't the #1 priority to most of us.
Of what I saw and visited, I thought Emory, UAB, and Jacksonville were other strong programs.
Remember that everyone will have very different perspectives and opinions on what a "good 6 year program" is based off criteria mentioned above and how those align with themselves and personal goals within the specialty. There were a couple mentioned above that I personally didn't find strong at all, and I would add Baylor to the mix as a good program. Again, very opinionated. I mean, some say UCLA is strong too hahahaha.
how many months of dedicated OMFS do you do at Baylor?
Just started D1. What do you think is my ideal trajectory during the next four years, to actually get into an OMFS program? I am more interested by 4 year programs than 6 (plan is to go straight to private practice afterwards), and I am a Canadian citizen (at a Canadian dental school, but there just aren't enough OMFS spots in Canada to bank on).
PS: I do know that as an entering D1 I might not end up wanting to do omfs, the more I learn, but I just want to keep the door open. 🙂
Thank you!
PS: I do know that as an entering D1 I might not end up wanting to do omfs, the more I learn, but I just want to keep the door open. 🙂
Thank you!
Nothing new here. Try to stay at the top of your class (the higher the better), get a strong CBSE score (70+), and go on several externships at programs that put you to work. The less important things (IMO) are stellar letters of rec (everyone has them), extracurriculars, research, community service, etc.
How high at the top of my class need I be? Let's say my class is composed of 45-55 students. Would it be the end of the world (the OMFS world) if I'm like 10th-15th?
Just trying to understand the process 😛
I would say there isn't a hard cutoff. Being top 20% is fine, being top 10% is better. There are still plenty of people who match in the top 50%.
Really? How do they make up for top 50%? Great CBSE score?
Sure. Or great extracurriculars, connections, strong research, etc. There are plenty of programs, not all are uber competitive.
Do you know of any non-uber competitive OMFS programs that accept Canadians/Canadian grads? 🙂
Not particularly, but they're probably programs you haven't heard of. Check the AAOMS website.
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Allright! Thanks!
My understanding is that they will be later this year; the end of November or possibly December.
Great thanks! How are you and your co-residents enjoying your training up to this point? I'm sure you bust your ass but are you happy for the most part? Would you mind providing a brief update on UTSW and anything that might not be on your website but would be useful for us to know? Any changes in the next couple years, camaraderie between residents and between attendings and residents, any changes to implant experience in the near future, moonlighting during med school policy, ect. I'd appreciate any input you have to offer!
Hi CMistry, thanks for all the advice. I'm going to be a D1 next August at Baylor. At Baylor the NDBE is taken after D1 year. My question is about the CBSE and when to take. You mentioned that you recommend taking the CBSE around the same time as taking the NDBE exam as much of the material overlaps, however, I'm worried that this will be way too early to take the exam (and score well). Do you think taking the NDBE in the summer, then taking the CBSE during the winter would be too far apart?
Also, all my knowledge about how to build a competitive application comes from reading online. From what I gather, this is more or less the timeline I'm looking at. Is this correct?
1. Enter dental school & do as well as you can as a D1 (maybe do some research & shadow at the OMS department)
2. Take NDBE & CBSE the summer after D1 (for Baylor)
3. Extern during D2-D3 years
4. Apply during Fall of D4
5. Interview
Also, all my knowledge about how to build a competitive application comes from reading online. From what I gather, this is more or less the timeline I'm looking at. Is this correct?
1. Enter dental school & do as well as you can as a D1 (maybe do some research & shadow at the OMS department)
2. Take NDBE & CBSE the summer after D1 (for Baylor)
3. Extern during D2-D3 years
4. Apply during Fall of D4
5. Interview
.
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Sorry, just saw this. I'm very happy with my program so far, it is everything I expected it to be nothing I did not. I am just as proud to be here as the day when I matched - I love it here. Honestly because we have so many residents I don't think we are overworked like some residents at the smaller programs. We do cover a lot of hospitals, but that's what enables us to have a great caseload. A brief update isn't feasible since I don't know when you're comparing it to. No big changes in the next couple years that I know of other than some new faculty and their scope (mostly H&N) coming with. No changes to implants or moonlighting in the foreseeable future.
You should still take your CBSE around the same time as your NBDE. The material is very similar. Most dental schools that require the NBDE after first year do it that way so the second year can be more focused on clinical dentistry (a departure from the material you need to ace the CBSE). The second advantage is that you have taken it once early, so you have plenty of time to repeat it if necessary. Also as mentioned above, you generally need to be a D3 to do clinical externships.
Hey CMistry,
Thanks for doing this. I know many people (you included as I saw above) say to get LoRs from oral surgeons. The 2017 PASS cycle has spots for up to 4 letters. Do you think that if I had 2 oral surgeons write me letters that would be suitable? Or is it better to try and fill all 4 slots with letters from oral surgery attendings? What I was thinking was to have 2 be from oral surgeons and then the other 2 would come from faculty (both are full professors of oral path and one is an associate dean) I work very closely with and have gotten to know extremely well. I feel confident that the letters they write me would be personable and paint a strong picture of me.
Thanks for doing this. I know many people (you included as I saw above) say to get LoRs from oral surgeons. The 2017 PASS cycle has spots for up to 4 letters. Do you think that if I had 2 oral surgeons write me letters that would be suitable? Or is it better to try and fill all 4 slots with letters from oral surgery attendings? What I was thinking was to have 2 be from oral surgeons and then the other 2 would come from faculty (both are full professors of oral path and one is an associate dean) I work very closely with and have gotten to know extremely well. I feel confident that the letters they write me would be personable and paint a strong picture of me.
Students at the school I'm planning on attending take their boards after second year. In my situation then, when would you recommend first taking the CBSE - first or second year? It's probably worth mentioning that the curriculum at said school isn't med-integrated. Thanks CMistry!
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I would take it as soon as is reasonable after finishing your basic science curriculum. Doesn't that make sense?
It's just that I read elsewhere that a lot of what the CBSE tests isn't taught in dental school, so I assumed I would have to learn it myself from scratch anyway. Since there is considerable overlap though, it does make sense to take them both around the same time. Thanks again.
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Hey CMistry, thanks again for taking the time to do this for us. I had a question regarding the long-term future of OMFS and where the specialty is headed. As more and more residency programs are converting from a 4 year to a 6 year/MD curriculum. Do you think that in 10 years, or 30 years, or so on, the MD will become more of a necessity for us to not only practice full scope, but expand as a profession? I'd appreciate input from everyone on this!
My 100% personal opinion: I do not think the MD will become a necessity/requirement in my lifetime seeing that more than half of my colleagues will graduate without one. I do think it has helped and will continue to help expand our profession.
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To how many programs does the average applicant apply to?
Thanks.
Thanks.
I've heard of people applying to as little as 5 programs and as many is 25. I am sure some have applied to many more. Average I can't say. I would venture to guess anywhere from between 10-15? Guess it depends on the strength of your application and test score.
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as many as you can afford. the whole process is very expensive.
Hello,
First thank you for taking the time to answer questions it really helps! I had a question with regards to the cbse. I am a D1 and I really want to hopefully specialize in omfs. As such I have started studying for the cbse. However the omfs guys at my d school are saying that I most likely will be needing to take the adat and not the cbse. So now I'm in a bit of a pickle. Should I hold off on studying for the cbse and wait to see or will the most likely scenario be that we will have to take both or that the cbse will be weighted more?
Thank you
First thank you for taking the time to answer questions it really helps! I had a question with regards to the cbse. I am a D1 and I really want to hopefully specialize in omfs. As such I have started studying for the cbse. However the omfs guys at my d school are saying that I most likely will be needing to take the adat and not the cbse. So now I'm in a bit of a pickle. Should I hold off on studying for the cbse and wait to see or will the most likely scenario be that we will have to take both or that the cbse will be weighted more?
Thank you
.
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Thank you! I'll keep all of this in mind.
Hey Cmistry,
It's been a while since u opened up this very informative and uber helpful thread, I hope you still get some some time on ur hands.
I am interested in craniofacial, and am aiming to do a fellowship. But I'm not sure what would be a better choice to increase my chance of getting a cf fellowship. Do fellowship director look more favourably at candidates from a program with Strong focus on the field of interest or a program that's generally strong and well rounded? Speaking of strong CF experience, UNC comes to mind whereas if a well rounded experience speaks louder, several programs would fit the profile such as Vandy, Mayo, UPenn (also big on TMJ), Jacksonville and so on.
Any insights would be great! Thank you very much!
It's been a while since u opened up this very informative and uber helpful thread, I hope you still get some some time on ur hands.
I am interested in craniofacial, and am aiming to do a fellowship. But I'm not sure what would be a better choice to increase my chance of getting a cf fellowship. Do fellowship director look more favourably at candidates from a program with Strong focus on the field of interest or a program that's generally strong and well rounded? Speaking of strong CF experience, UNC comes to mind whereas if a well rounded experience speaks louder, several programs would fit the profile such as Vandy, Mayo, UPenn (also big on TMJ), Jacksonville and so on.
Any insights would be great! Thank you very much!
