Anyone see this article on the AAMC site? (Affirmative Action related)

[flaahless]

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I never said race wasn't an issue in society. I DID say it shouldn't be a factor in medical admissions.

Also, you do realise that the Sean Bell case is still up in the air, yeah? Two of the police who shot him were African-American (are you suggesting they were self-hating?), Bell had been arrested on drug and firearm possession previously, as were his two friends who were injured in the incident, so they are not the posterboy he was made out to be, and a janitor at the club positively identified Bell as the man who ran from the club and fired twice at an undercover police officer. Granted, it's sad ANYTIME someone of ANY race is shot and killed, but don't act like this was an open and closed case of cops (two of whom were African-American) shooting an unarmed person.

Amadou Diallo?

 

[flaahless]

We'll just have to agree to disagree, I'm tired of typing.

Redlining. Read up on that. It explains VERY WELL how race and economics are indeed inextricably linked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

EDIT: You should read up on that too VZD. I'll get back to yall later. Off to the gym.

"Redlining is the practice of denying or increasing the cost of services, such as banking, insurance, access to jobs,[2] access to health care,[3] or even supermarkets[4] to residents in certain, often racially determined,[5] areas. The most devastating form of redlining, and the most common use of the term, refers to mortgage discrimination, in which middle-income black and Hispanic residents are denied loans that are made available to lower-income whites. The term "redlining" was coined in the late 1960s by community activists in Chicago. It describes the practice of marking a red line on a map to delineate the area where banks would not invest; later the term was applied to discrimination against a particular group of people (usually by race or sex), no matter the geography. During the heyday of redlining these areas were most frequently black inner city neighborhoods. Later, through at least the 1990s, this discrimination involved lending to lower-income whites, but not to middle- or upper-income blacks. (ref: Immergluck, Dedman.)"

Chuuch.

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

Amadou Diallo?

Well, tell you what: when the NYPD starts working on medical admission committees, then I'll see why Amadou Diallo is even tangentially related to anything I've claimed to support on this thread.

I've already stated that yes, racism is readily apparent in society. I've also stated that medical admissions should not factor in race. Do you think the admissions committee sits down and all have the same view of certain ethnicities? You do know they panels can consist of more than just white people, right? You also know you've never explained why what you said about BMWs and Audis wasn't racist.

 

[riceman04]

I was actually agreeing with you before this statement. This is quite an assinine statement coming from someone as intelligent as yourself. I've been called ''white'' by lots of people in my lifetime and not once was it because I wanted to be successful or had good grades. Moreover, thinking that the current african american culture(what the hell is that anyway) doesn't think they can be successful is just absurd. I don't know what black people you've been around, but most of them aren't in school to try to make bad grades, especially those who have aspirations of being a physician.

clearly one's "intelligence" can be limited to pure academic intellect.

 

[n3opologist]

Whites make up 73% of the population, but only have 67% of medical school slots in the recent MSAR. Asians make up 3% of the population and have 10.6% of the slots. I found this ironic because most AA laws hurt whites, but they are already behind where they should be on a population basis for med school admits.

You bring up a point that absolutely floors me when people are protesting for diversity on my campus, UCLA. When the protestors demand more minorities in schools they immediately point the finger at the whites. HELLO, at UCLA we are 34% white (non-hispanic) and 38% Asian (aim.ucla.edu). Compare that to California which is 77% white and 12% Asian (quickfacts.census.gov). When people talk about increasing minorities, they should say black/hispanic, and by that same token, they should also say decrease Asian percentages, because all percentages have to add up to 100%; it surely doesn't make sense to decrease the amount of whites who are an underrepresented majority. In addition, there are many Asian subgroups, like the Filipinos for example who are very underrepresented. It's mainly the Chinese and Koreans, who are taking the spots of blacks and hispanics.

PS, I have many Asian friends and in no way think they should not be in school. Stereotypically, many of the Asian countries have an impecable and respectable work ethic. I'm simply stating that the finger shouldn't be pointed at whites.

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

Redlining. Read up on that. It explains VERY WELL how race and economics are indeed inextricably linked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

So, let me get this straight. An individual lives in a lower income area, has a low income themselves, and are thus either denied a credit card or are given a reduced limit, and you think it's racism, rather than economics? You realise that these companies are purely out to make money and couldn't care less what color the hand was that signed their monthly payments, right?

Also, I don't understand the redlining aspect of now building supermarkets or other stores in certain areas, which they perceive as racist. Isn't it possible that these companies feel they'll get bigger bang for their buck by building their store in a high-income area? If I were opening a store, I know I would certainly do so in an area with tons of cash flow. Why is that racist? Also, what keeps anyone from driving/walking/riding the bus/biking to any store they want?

 

[riceman04]

It was an example. I guess I should have made my last sentence more clear when I said it wasn't always the case. But still, to act like their is equal opportunity IS still ignorant to many of the disparities that still occur in society.

And another point. ~ 90% of the students from the OC upper-middle class schools go on to college. ~ 75% of those are four year universities. So an unmotivated student at Orange Lutheran, or Servite, or Damien, or University Hight etc. will most likely go to college. Motivated or not.

Now, an unmotivated student at LB Poly, or Dorsey, or Westchester, Garfield, Lynwood etc... will most likely drop out. Do you see the difference? Is that due to economics, largely. But is it also due to social and ethnic oppression, yes.

Thank you for highlighting the difference. People rarely ever consider this issue from that perspective.

 

[airplanes]

I never said race wasn't an issue in society. I DID say it shouldn't be a factor in medical admissions.

Also, you do realise that the Sean Bell case is still up in the air, yeah? Two of the police who shot him were African-American (are you suggesting they were self-hating?), Bell had been arrested on drug and firearm possession previously, as were his two friends who were injured in the incident, so they are not the posterboy he was made out to be, and a janitor at the club positively identified Bell as the man who ran from the club and fired twice at an undercover police officer. Granted, it's sad ANYTIME someone of ANY race is shot and killed, but don't act like this was an open and closed case of cops (two of whom were African-American) shooting an unarmed person.

Horizontal Hostility: when members of the oppressed start believing the stereotypes and lies and act out towards their own group or against other oppressed groups (i.e. gang wars).

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

Horizontal Hostility: when members of the oppressed start believing the stereotypes and lies and act out towards their own group or against other oppressed groups (i.e. gang wars).

Yes, clearly two police officers who had no history of such actions decided to fire on two African-Americans and a hispanic man. So, they were "horizontally hostile" against their own group, and racist against hispanics, as well? Dang, who did these guys NOT hate?

Let's just ignore the witness accounts, prior arrests, etc., yeah?

 

[riceman04]

Well, tell you what: when the NYPD starts working on medical admission committees, then I'll see why Amadou Diallo is even tangentially related to anything I've claimed to support on this thread.

I've already stated that yes, racism is readily apparent in society. I've also stated that medical admissions should not factor in race. Do you think the admissions committee sits down and all have the same view of certain ethnicities? You do know they panels can consist of more than just white people, right? You also know you've never explained why what you said about BMWs and Audis wasn't racist.

What is racist about that statement? What he said is actually loosely based on fact. Have you ever had the opportunity to spend some time at an expensive private high school. It is no secret that many of the students' parents do purchase expensive cars for them. I actually attended such a high school in Los Angeles and am quite aware of the contrast flaahless drew btwn such schools

 

[airplanes]

You bring up a point that absolutely floors me when people are protesting for diversity on my campus, UCLA. When the protestors demand more minorities in schools they immediately point the finger at the whites. HELLO, at UCLA we are 34% white (non-hispanic) and 38% Asian (aim.ucla.edu). Compare that to California which is 77% white and 12% Asian (quickfacts.census.gov). When people talk about increasing minorities, they should say black/hispanic, and by that same token, they should also say decrease Asian percentages, because all percentages have to add up to 100%; it surely doesn't make sense to decrease the amount of whites who are an underrepresented majority. In addition, there are many Asian subgroups, like the Filipinos for example who are very underrepresented. It's mainly the Chinese and Koreans, who are taking the spots of blacks and hispanics.

PS, I have many Asian friends and in no way think they should not be in school. Stereotypically, many of the Asian countries have an impecable and respectable work ethic. I'm simply stating that the finger shouldn't be pointed at whites.

Please...people who are only pointing fingers at whites are ignorant. Admissions selections are based on merit, no one gets a boost up for something they haven't earned. It's only when two candidate are evenly matched that the minority gets in. The minority has overcome more obstacles to be as accomplished as they are, presumably. I would also like to see what the applicant pool at UCLA is like...instead of throwing out population percentages. Maybe 50% of applicants are Asians and only 20% are white...

 

[airplanes]

Yes, clearly two police officers who had no history of such actions decided to fire on two African-Americans and a hispanic man. So, they were "horizontally hostile" against their own group, and racist against hispanics, as well? Dang, who did these guys NOT hate?

Let's just ignore the witness accounts, prior arrests, etc., yeah?

If their police training, peers, media coverage, and popular culture tell them black men could be armed and dangerous...then they could act with the stereotypes already embedded in their subconscious. We all have racist thoughts we can't control, a product of society. What makes the difference is if you try your best to remind yourself that often times, they are unfounded.

lets ignore how many times they got shot, how they were unarmed, and how you don't hear about these kinds of things happening to unarmed white guys...yeah?

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

What is racist about that statement? What he said is actually loosely based on fact. Have you ever had the opportunity to spend some time at an expensive private high school. It is no secret that many of the students' parents do purchase expensive cars for them. I actually attended such a high school in Los Angeles and am quite aware of the contrast flaahless drew btwn such schools

Interesting. I've spent time at a few of the poorer public schools. Would it be racist to say something about teen pregnancy, drug use, and theft?

Anytime you make any distinction, even if you (falsely) feel your anecdotes support it, it is racist. You can either admit it and try to figure out a way to fix the situation, or you can ignore it and placate yourself by saying "Well, I saw an example of it, so it MUST be true!"

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

lets ignore how many times they got shot, how they were unarmed, and how you don't hear about these kinds of things happening to unarmed white guys...yeah?

Using your logic, you don't hear about these things happening to unarmed hispanics or Asians, either, despite the fact that police forces consist of all these groups. Is it really just happening to African-Americans, or are those just the cases that get press due to historical precedent?

 

[airplanes]

Using your logic, you don't hear about these things happening to unarmed hispanics or Asians, either, despite the fact that police forces consist of all these groups. Is it really just happening to African-Americans, or are those just the cases that get press due to historical precedent?

I don't think you get it, just because you're the same race as someone doesn't mean you don't harbor pretensions or stereotypes. These are engrained in us and have been sculpted since childhood from everything we have ever been exposed to. I would agree that the media tends to sensationalize news like the Bell case, but I have heard of incidents involving other unarmed minorities.

 

[deleted74029]

If their police training, peers, media coverage, and popular culture tell them black men could be armed and dangerous...then they could act with the stereotypes already embedded in their subconscious. We all have racist thoughts we can't control, a product of society. What makes the difference is if you try your best to remind yourself that often times, they are unfounded.

lets ignore how many times they got shot, how they were unarmed, and how you don't hear about these kinds of things happening to unarmed white guys...yeah?

Its not the police training, peers, or media or popular culture. Its just the way it is. There is a hugely disproportionate amount of blacks incarcerated compared to the amount of the population we make up. Yeah some of them may be there unduly but many are there because they have committed crimes. Its just sad but true. More often than not its our own selves who perpetuate these stereotypes, not "The White Man."

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

I don't think you get it, just because you're the same race as someone doesn't mean you don't harbor pretensions or stereotypes. These are engrained in us and have been sculpted since childhood from everything we have ever been exposed to. I would agree that the media tends to sensationalize news like the Bell case, but I have heard of incidents involving other unarmed minorities.

I don't think you understood what I was saying. I was trying to say that taking into account the diversity of police forces, overt racism, horizontal hostility, etc. why would one group be more prone to police brutality than others? Either they aren't or you are suggesting that it's an "everyone against African-americans" attitude, which is just silly.

Also, if there is a higher risk of police brutality against African-Americans, couldn't is possibly be linked to the insanely high rate of murder, gun-related and robbery arrests in that population?

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_43.html

If I were a police officer patrolling in a neighborhood with a higher per capita rate of gun violence, I might be on edge, too.

 

[bcat85]

And now, ladies and gentlemen:

 

[deleted74029]

And now, ladies and gentlemen:

Yeah this thread has gotten way off course.

 

[suwaifo]

PS. America...land of equal opportunity?!!?! Uhhhh no way, look at who runs the country. Corporations, Government institutions, the Presidency (thus far), they are all middle aged, christian, able-bodied white men with token exceptions few and far between. It's not like these rich white guys are superior and work harder than everyone else therefore they earned it...the opportunities are not there for the taking, and you will have to work much harder than if you fall outside the general classification

Not everyone wants to own a corporation, work for a government institution, or be the president. I'm gonna have to quote Samuel L. Jackson on this, "You don't judge shiz like this based on merit." Equal opportunity doesn't mean that everyone should have a free ride to do whatever he or she wants. It doesn't mean that people born rich are ahead of the game, and people born poor are less equally opportunable (is that a real word?).

I took a sociology class, and if anything, that class pretty much forced racist ideals onto everyone. We had to study "White Privelage". Boy, the ironic racism in that.

And about the school thing with OC and LB, are you guys saying that OC kids are more likely to go to college because of their stats or because they just want to go to college? That's kind of irrelevant, especially with community colleges. You only need to be 18 years old to go to a community college in California. There should be no economical reason, either, to hold anyone back. I'm poor, so my college pays for my tuition. I applied for financial aid so I get more money to just GO to school instead of sit around. The only excuse anyone really has is if his or her family needed him or her to stay at home for some reason or another.

You guys are pressing your ideals onto the whole human population.
"Now, an unmotivated student at LB Poly, or Dorsey, or Westchester, Garfield, Lynwood etc... will most likely drop out."
I almost dropped out of high school and barely graduated. Is that necessarily a bad thing? No. It made me who I am today. You could still go to community college without a high school degree. If people cry over dropping out of high school, then they probably don't belong in a college atmosphere to begin with. I sure as hell know that I would've dropped out of college if I kept blaming everyone else for me being unmotivated.

 

[suwaifo]

And now, ladies and gentlemen:

This is us:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_CzRMSSDDw
Heh, I'm a noob, dunno how to embed youtube.

 

[flaahless]

So, let me get this straight. An individual lives in a lower income area, has a low income themselves, and are thus either denied a credit card or are given a reduced limit, and you think it's racism, rather than economics? You realise that these companies are purely out to make money and couldn't care less what color the hand was that signed their monthly payments, right?

Also, I don't understand the redlining aspect of now building supermarkets or other stores in certain areas, which they perceive as racist. Isn't it possible that these companies feel they'll get bigger bang for their buck by building their store in a high-income area? If I were opening a store, I know I would certainly do so in an area with tons of cash flow. Why is that racist? Also, what keeps anyone from driving/walking/riding the bus/biking to any store they want?

Did you not read the first sentence?

"Redlining is the practice of denying or increasing the cost of services, such as banking, insurance, access to jobs,[2] access to health care,[3] or even supermarkets[4] to residents in certain, often racially determined,[5] areas.

Anyways, redlining started because of RACISM. It was defined in the 60s and is still practiced today. Thus, race and economics are linked. What don't you understand?

Man you are trying really hard to argue. I'm not arguing with you man. Race and economics are historically and systemically linked, this dates back to Jim Crowe and is perpetuated in modern society. There is no argument. This is fact.

 

[parto123]

How about let's not give them a boost. How about we re-evaluate the qualifications? Is SAT/GPA really fair when there are VAST differences in opportunity?

This doesn’t seem like a good idea considering how colleges also use grades and exams to evaluate their students. “Fair” doesn’t do anyone good if the applicant who is accepted eventually fails out. As it is almost two thirds of blacks who matriculate to college never graduate, and for law schools, blacks have almost 3 times the bar failure rate as whites.

Ideally it would be fair to help those who are disadvantaged waaay before college. Its unfortunate that this is usually not the case, but tinkering with admissions criteria is not the way to help.

 

[flaahless]

Not everyone wants to own a corporation, work for a government institution, or be the president. I'm gonna have to quote Samuel L. Jackson on this, "You don't judge shiz like this based on merit." Equal opportunity doesn't mean that everyone should have a free ride to do whatever he or she wants. It doesn't mean that people born rich are ahead of the game, and people born poor are less equally opportunable (is that a real word?).

I took a sociology class, and if anything, that class pretty much forced racist ideals onto everyone. We had to study "White Privelage". Boy, the ironic racism in that.

And about the school thing with OC and LB, are you guys saying that OC kids are more likely to go to college because of their stats or because they just want to go to college? That's kind of irrelevant, especially with community colleges. You only need to be 18 years old to go to a community college in California. There should be no economical reason, either, to hold anyone back. I'm poor, so my college pays for my tuition. I applied for financial aid so I get more money to just GO to school instead of sit around. The only excuse anyone really has is if his or her family needed him or her to stay at home for some reason or another.

You guys are pressing your ideals onto the whole human population.
"Now, an unmotivated student at LB Poly, or Dorsey, or Westchester, Garfield, Lynwood etc... will most likely drop out."
I almost dropped out of high school and barely graduated. Is that necessarily a bad thing? No. It made me who I am today. You could still go to community college without a high school degree. If people cry over dropping out of high school, then they probably don't belong in a college atmosphere to begin with. I sure as hell know that I would've dropped out of college if I kept blaming everyone else for me being unmotivated.

Two completely different environments. In one environment, education is stressed so much that there aren't many other feasible alternatives. Hence over 90% of the graduates go on to college. Whether they want to or not, they just do because that's all they know.

In the other environment, the education is less stressed because there aren't as many educated people around, not enough money for the school systems, and it's A LOT easier for student's to fall through the cracks. And when these student's fall through the cracks, they don't go to college, but get jobs at the local McDonalds because that is the only business in their community. Fast food and retail, but no biotech, healthcare, aerospace or any other business that can increase the revenue of the inner-city. Hence redlining. This is largely due to economics which are largely due to the oppressive forces of the US gov, society, historical and systemic racism, capitalism etc.

AND the quality of academic education they receive is subpar, so when they do show an interest and finally make it into a university, they are ridiculed, called inferior and told they needed a helping hand. But I guess that's life.

 

[flaahless]

I don't think you understood what I was saying. I was trying to say that taking into account the diversity of police forces, overt racism, horizontal hostility, etc. why would one group be more prone to police brutality than others? Either they aren't or you are suggesting that it's an "everyone against African-americans" attitude, which is just silly.

Also, if there is a higher risk of police brutality against African-Americans, couldn't is possibly be linked to the insanely high rate of murder, gun-related and robbery arrests in that population?

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_43.html

If I were a police officer patrolling in a neighborhood with a higher per capita rate of gun violence, I might be on edge, too.

Hahaha man. You do understand the US gov, FBI and CIA directly caused a lot of that right?

Google COINTELPRO, CIA and heroin.

 

[deleted74029]

Flaahless you have lawyer-like argument longevity, I went and cleaned my house and I come back and you're still here pleading your case. Although I disagree with you on some things, I commend you.

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

In the other environment, the education is less stressed because there aren't as many educated people around, not enough money for the school systems, and it's A LOT easier for student's to fall through the cracks. And when these student's fall through the cracks, they don't go to college, but get jobs at the local McDonalds because that is the only business in their community. Fast food and retail, but no biotech, healthcare, aerospace or any other business that can increase the revenue of the inner-city. Hence redlining. This is largely due to economics which are largely due to the oppressive forces of the US gov, society, historical and systemic racism, capitalism etc.

So, how about instead of constantly playing the victim, these people open such businesses? Why don't younger generations see these problems and fix then? Why don't they look for jobs outside their community like a lot of people do? Why is it automatically the US government's fault?

AND the quality of academic education they receive is subpar, so when they do show an interest and finally make it into a university, they are ridiculed, called inferior and told they needed a helping hand. But I guess that's life.

Can you provide a source relating to people being "ridiculed" and "called inferior" when they attend university? I'm fairly certain entire organisations exist purely to execute lawsuits relating to this (ACLU, NAACP). Why weren't they notified? Why weren't those professors/administrators punishes? Is it possibly because you're making this up in order to further the victim complex and shift the blame?

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

Hahaha man. You do understand the US gov, FBI and CIA directly caused a lot of that right?

Google COINTELPRO, CIA and heroin.

Hahaha, yeah, ok. I'm not arguing that COINTELPRO didn't and doesn't happen, I worked with a few people who were semi-involved with that program in the 1960s. However, it's kind of illogical to link illegal government surveillance to an incredibly high rate of robbery and gun-crime in a population. How are those two related? Let me guess, the US government invented crack cocaine and HIV, too, yeah?

 

[suwaifo]

Two completely different environments. In one environment, education is stressed so much that there aren't many other feasible alternatives. Hence over 90% of the graduates go on to college. Whether they want to or not, they just do because that's all they know.

In the other environment, the education is less stressed because there aren't as many educated people around, not enough money for the school systems, and it's A LOT easier for student's to fall through the cracks. And when these student's fall through the cracks, they don't go to college, but get jobs at the local McDonalds because that is the only business in their community. Fast food and retail, but no biotech, healthcare, aerospace or any other business that can increase the revenue of the inner-city. Hence redlining. This is largely due to economics which are largely due to the oppressive forces of the US gov, society, historical and systemic racism, capitalism etc.

AND the quality of academic education they receive is subpar, so when they do show an interest and finally make it into a university, they are ridiculed, called inferior and told they needed a helping hand. But I guess that's life.

Well, I guess we can both agree that California's public education isn't the best. This is why I wouldn't mind being a teacher if med school doesn't work out. It would be stupid to ignore that people in bad areas tend to get McDegrees, but there's always a way to get to what you want. This is just by virtue of us being human, I mean come on -- we created government and society, nothing really binds us to behave or accept certain things. Maybe I'm just an optimist. Those 90% that do go on to college aren't guaranteed success either.

What would you propose as a solution?

 

[flaahless]

So, how about instead of constantly playing the victim, these people open such businesses? Why don't younger generations see these problems and fix then? Why don't they look for jobs outside their community like a lot of people do? Why is it automatically the US government's fault?

See man, this thing is waayyy too complex to understand on an internet forum. It's a major quagmire. It's the local, state and federal government's fault, it's the community's fault, the education system's fault, business owners, media etc. It's a helluva quagmire.

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

See man, this thing is waayyy too complex to understand on an internet forum. It's a major quagmire. It's the local, state and federal government's fault, it's the community's fault, the education system's fault, business owners, media etc. It's a helluva quagmire.

But it's never the minority populations fault, right? It's always the majority, white priviledge, etc.? That's the vibe I get from most of your posts in this thread.

 

[flaahless]

Well, I guess we can both agree that California's public education isn't the best. This is why I wouldn't mind being a teacher if med school doesn't work out. It would be stupid to ignore that people in bad areas tend to get McDegrees, but there's always a way to get to what you want. This is just by virtue of us being human, I mean come on -- we created government and society, nothing really binds us to behave or accept certain things. Maybe I'm just an optimist. Those 90% that do go on to college aren't guaranteed success either.

What would you propose as a solution?

Money. It all boils down to money. Those with money like it and keep it, while those without struggle. I'm semi-marxist in my beliefs, but those communities need legit businesses, and not McDonald's commercials that show them "hey! You can get a job at Burger King and make a difference in your community!"

The idea of education needs to be more tangible. We need to stop building more and more prisons and put money in education. There needs to be more schools because in CA, there is a MAJOR problem with overcrowding. Overcrowding leads to a lack of control, which leads to chaos, which leads to crappy education. Need more teachers, more pay for teachers so they are motivated. Parents need to be FORCED to have an active role in their children's education. We need more community programs and mentorships for those who don't have familial support. This, I believe, should be forced and not elective. After school tutoring should be mandatory, not volunteer.

 

[flaahless]

But it's never the minority populations fault, right? It's always the majority, white priviledge, etc.? That's the vibe I get from most of your posts in this thread.

I've been arguing one-sided to prove to that ethnic and economic disparities exist and are linked. I never said one was privileged over the other. I did say it was the community's fault, BUT I will NEVER say it's a minority populations fault because it isn't. This isn't a Jim Crowe segregation era where black and white problems are separate. Black problems are white problems are brown problems and vice versa.

 

[suwaifo]

Money. It all boils down to money. Those with money like it and keep it, while those without struggle. I'm semi-marxist in my beliefs, but those communities need legit businesses, and not McDonald's commercials that show them "hey! You can get a job at Burger King and make a difference in your community!"

The idea of education needs to be more tangible. We need to stop building more and more prisons and put money in education. There needs to be more schools because in CA, there is a MAJOR problem with overcrowding. Overcrowding leads to a lack of control, which leads to chaos, which leads to crappy education. Need more teachers, more pay for teachers so they are motivated. Parents need to be FORCED to have an active role in their children's education. We need more community programs and mentorships for those who don't have familial support. This, I believe, should be forced and not elective. After school tutoring should be mandatory, not volunteer.

Reasonable, but I guess this is just where you and I differ. I wouldn't want to force anyone to do anything. I think we should just trust people to do the right thing and eventually people will earnestly want to make differences. That, of course, is probably NEVER going to happen.

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

'm semi-marxist in my beliefs,

I'm a complete Marxist, actually. My attitude is that everyone needs to contribute to society or you get nothing. Period. Granted, you can't punish the children of irresponsible parents, so there should be programs to help ALL children with education, food, clothing, etc.

We need to stop building more and more prisons and put money in education.

And do what with our prisoners?

There needs to be more schools because in CA, there is a MAJOR problem with overcrowding. Overcrowding leads to a lack of control, which leads to chaos, which leads to crappy education. Need more teachers, more pay for teachers so they are motivated.

I like this idea, actually. We could solve is by raising taxes across the board to European levels, tax dividends heavier, tax estates, and lower the number of private-based grants the government gives out. That's just my opinion, though.

Parents need to be FORCED to have an active role in their children's education.

You've never actually MET these parents, have you? Laziness knows no race or creed. I promise you, there is a good portion of parents out there who barely care if their children have food and clothing, let alone education.

We need more community programs and mentorships for those who don't have familial support. This, I believe, should be forced and not elective. After school tutoring should be mandatory, not volunteer.

Big Brothers, Big Sisters, the CARE program, these all exist in almost every major city, they just need to be accessed. What's stopping them?

 

[flaahless]

Hahaha, yeah, ok. I'm not arguing that COINTELPRO didn't and doesn't happen, I worked with a few people who were semi-involved with that program in the 1960s. However, it's kind of illogical to link illegal government surveillance to an incredibly high rate of robbery and gun-crime in a population. How are those two related? Let me guess, the US government invented crack cocaine and HIV, too, yeah?

J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI initiated Cointelpro to destroy the ethnic progressive organizations in the 60s to maintain the power of the status quo, White America. After these organizations were destroyed they were left without leadership and the communities plummeted. "Cut off the head and the body falls."

The CIA gave vietnam crime lords that cooperated with them asylum in the states and allowed them to introduce, transport and distribute heroin in the US major cities. LA, DC, Nawlins, NY etc. This is factual.

The FBI also contributed in the drug trade through corruption and direct partnership with Columbian cartels.

Cocaine was a "white problem" as rich Caucasians abused it at 4x the rate of African Americans, but nn the news you saw biased images of babies in dumpsters and shot up crack dealers. Reagan's "SANE/DARE" campaigns painted biased pictures of the inner-city which destroyed it's image and contaminated the psyche of the inner-city and American society.

Now, is it's the government's fault that things are they way they are today? Ehh... but they definitely had an involvement.

EDIT: Note that I'm saying government and not "white america." The government messed yall up too.

 

[riceman04]

Interesting. I've spent time at a few of the poorer public schools. Would it be racist to say something about teen pregnancy, drug use, and theft?

Anytime you make any distinction, even if you (falsely) feel your anecdotes support it, it is racist. You can either admit it and try to figure out a way to fix the situation, or you can ignore it and placate yourself by saying "Well, I saw an example of it, so it MUST be true!"

hmmm...what I typed seemed to get erased...oh well

I dont have time to preach again...BUT...I will say I suggest you check your understanding of the term "racism" and also any term to which it is related for that matter b/c your utilization of them suggests you don't understand their meaning.

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI initiated Cointelpro to destroy the ethnic progressive organizations in the 60s to maintain the power of the status quo, White America. After these organizations were destroyed they were left without leadership and the communities plummeted. "Cut off the head and the body falls."

Not denying that. Like I said, I know this firsthand. Mistakes were made, and we can't change that. It was horrible, it was disgusting, but you can't keep using it as an excuse for failure.

The CIA gave vietnam crime lords that cooperated with them asylum in the states and allowed them to introduce, transport and distribute heroin in the US major cities. LA, DC, Nawlins, NY etc. This is factual.

No, the CIA smuggled/help smuggle heroin out of Afghanistan and Vietnam as a way to fund covert ops. They didn't do it with any intent to harm a specific population. Or, at least, so say the books publishes and veteran accounts to date. Could change in the next few years, who knows what will come out of the woodwork.

Cocaine was a "white problem" as rich Caucasians abused it at 4x the rate of African Americans, but nn the news you saw biased images of babies in dumpsters and shot up crack dealers. Reagan's "SANE/DARE" campaigns painted biased pictures of the inner-city which destroyed it's image and contaminated the psyche of the inner-city and American society.

Um, DARE was no started by Reagan, it was started by the LAPD, if I remember correctly, as a response to officer facing an overwhelming amount of drug-related crime.

Now, is it's the government's fault that things are they way they are today? Ehh... but they definitely had an involvement.

The mentality that you are owed something for the government's past mistakes only makes it harder for you to do anything about it. My family moved here in the 1930s and faced oppression and discrimination based on skin-color/nationality, and I'm not asking for anything. My great-grandparents sucked it up, made their own way, and lived the American dream. Why could they do it but so many others can't?

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

I dont have time to preach again...BUT...I will say I suggest you check your understanding of the term "racism" and also any term to which it is related for that matter b/c your utilization of them suggests you don't understand their meaning.

You don't think it would be racist for someone to say group A is more likely to use drugs, commit crimes, and has a higher chance of teen pregnancy?

Wow, apparently I AM way off on the definition of racism.

 

[flaahless]

No, the CIA smuggled/help smuggle heroin out of Afghanistan and Vietnam as a way to fund covert ops. They didn't do it with any intent to harm a specific population. Or, at least, so say the books publishes and veteran accounts to date. Could change in the next few years, who knows what will come out of the woodwork.

Hahaha man, trust me on this.

Um, DARE was no started by Reagan, it was started by the LAPD, if I remember correctly, as a response to officer facing an overwhelming amount of drug-related crime.

Just Say No. This is your brain on drugs *frying egg* That was Reagan correct? There we go.

The mentality that you are owed something for the government's past mistakes only makes it harder for you to do anything about it. My family moved here in the 1930s and faced oppression and discrimination based on skin-color/nationality, and I'm not asking for anything. My great-grandparents sucked it up, made their own way, and lived the American dream. Why could they do it but so many others can't?

I never said anyone is owed anything. I'm just shedding light on some stuff that not many people know about by discussing the oppressive forces that have systemically linked race and economics. No more, no less.

 

[riceman04]

You don't think it would be racist for someone to say group A is more likely to use drugs, commit crimes, and has a higher chance of teen pregnancy?

Wow, apparently I AM way off on the definition of racism.

apparently you are if you attempt to apply that crap above to what I said

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

apparently you are if you attempt to apply that crap above to what I said

Pleas re-read my post you originally quoted. The things I just stated (drug use, crimes, pregnancy) were things I stated I witnessed in my time at public schools in inner city areas. I asked if it would be racist of my to associate these with a group, just as Flaahless did with the Orange County school.

Get it now?

 

[suwaifo]

This is like a debate about whether or not Carlos Mencia is funny.

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

Hahaha man, trust me on this.

Let me get this straight. You make an outrageous claim, and then when I give you the published information on it, your counter-argument is "trust me"?

Wow, and you're in medical school, huh?

Just Say No. That was Reagan correct? There we go.

So, a slogan quoted by his wife, who tirelessly worked on drug rehabilitation and counseling, contrary to her poor excuse for a president husband, is responsible for the downfall of the black community?

Source?

I never said anyone is owed anything. I'm just shedding light on some stuff that not many people know about by discussing the oppressive forces that have systemically linked race and economics. No more, no less.

Oh, fantastic! If no one is owed anything, we can get rid of race-based AA and replace it with a color-blind economic based system, yeah? That was the whole point of my argument, and you've just made it for me. Thanks =)

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

This is like a debate about whether or not Carlos Mencia is funny.

He's not. Next topic?

Hehe =P

 

[suwaifo]

F5! F5!

 

[flaahless]

Let me get this straight. You make an outrageous claim, and then when I give you the published information on it, your counter-argument is "trust me"?

Wow, and you're in medical school, huh?

Haha, you even said yourself that new data may come out of the woodwork.

It's a known fact they sold drugs all through southeast asia, the middle east, central america and south america. Who do you think Latin America was selling to? US. And do not discount the idea of agents colluding with central american drug lords to sell it in their own communities inner-city. I know two of them.

But will US censorship allow this info to get published? Who knows. But trust me, people know it is very true. I think you do too, but you're too focused on debating to let yourself realize it. But I know you do. It's all good.

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

Haha, you even said yourself that new data may come out of the woodwork.

It's a known fact they sold drugs all through southeast asia, the middle east, central america and south america. Who do you think Latin America was selling to? US. And do not discount the idea of agents colluding with central american drug lords to sell it in their own communities inner-city. I know two of them.

But will US censorship allow this info to get published? Who knows. But trust me, people know it is very true. I think you do too, but you're too focused on debating to let yourself realize it. But I know you do. It's all good.

I never disputed that agents colluded with drug lords. I DO dispute that they did it with the intent of "destroying a population", as was implied in your posts. They did it to fund cover/black ops that the government was not funding, mostly in Afghanistan.

 

[deleted74029]

F5! F5!

Theres seems to be ALOT of that going on in this thread.

 

[riceman04]

Pleas re-read my post you originally quoted. The things I just stated (drug use, crimes, pregnancy) were things I stated I witnessed in my time at public schools in inner city areas. I asked if it would be racist of my to associate these with a group, just as Flaahless did with the Orange County school.

Get it now?

Did flaahless ever specify race in his post refering to the diff btwn students in the OC vs students at the various public la schools he mentioned?