AOA criteria heavy on extracurriculars

[nychila]

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I just found out the AOA selection criteria at my school is heavily based on extracurriculars, either at my school or in the local community, such that a student who is not "very active" has no chance of being selected for AOA. As someone who desires to enter a competitive specialty at a good academic hospital, eg. UCLA for radiology or BU for orthopedics or NYU for neurosurgery, but cannot and do not wish to spend too much time on extracurriculars beyond a minimal involvement, would I still have a chance at those residency programs with a decent application, eg. 240 step 1, mostly honors, good letters, and coming from a well-recognized school? What about more competitive programs like surgery at the Brigham or ENT at Duke with a 250 step 1?

 

[Leonidis I]

looking at your posting history you're a first year. wtf dude. if you already know that you need some EC's for AOA this early on then don't start complaining you can't do them.

also "heavily involved" sounds like BS. there's plenty of ways to look heavily involved on paper while doing minimal work. its much easier to get leadership positions in med school since there's so many damn groups and not as many students. and the vast majority of the positions just run themselves. administrators understand you don't have much time and most of the positions are just resume padders.

you obviously had to play the game and jump through a bunch of hoops to get into med school. why stop now especially since these hoops aren't even half as bad?

 

[redsquareblack]

Something you're going to discover in the not-too-distant future is that "competitiveness" is not the be-all and end-all of residency programs. There are a lot of great programs out there, even if they don't quite have the cache of other programs.

It's not a bad idea to want to have as strong a CV as possible for residency application, I grant you, but the bottom line is that you should do extracurriculars because you're interested in them, not because they're the ticket to AOA. AOA is a handy thing to have on your CV, but it is by no means necessary, even for competitive specialties.

My advice to you, as an outgoing 4th year, is this: Relax. Enjoy medical school. Work hard, study, do things in which you are genuinely interested. Don't worry about doing extracurriculars just to get into AOA yet. You still have USMLEs on the horizon, which I can tell you will be far more salient for determining the caliber of program you'll be competitive for than AOA membership.

Moreover, even if the selection criteria at your school emphasize extracurriculars, keep in mind that all those selected for AOA were eligible for selection based on their grades and USMLE scores.

 

[swamprat]

Dude wtf? Ortho, neurosurgery, ent? At Harvard? Chill out man most likely you won't be attaining these anyway. I hate first years that are still in the premed mode like they will only consider top hospitals and "competitive" specialties with no real world experience just to have some kind of premed prestige. Work hard, volunteer if AOA means that much to you, do well on step 1(wayyy more important) and get actual experience in these specialties before you worry about matching at top hospitals.

 

[throw away]

AOA is out of your control. It is based on many unknown factors like how much the deans like you. Just focus on your grades, an interesting long-term volunteer experience, and a good research project. These will help with applications whether you get AOA or not.

 

[BurghStudent]

As a followup, how do administrators know everything you're involved in etc? It's not like we submit applications for AOA.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

As a followup, how do administrators know everything you're involved in etc? It's not like we submit applications for AOA.

We had to submit a CV to be considered for AOA. There was a faculty head responsible for it and a selection committee.

 

[JJMrK]

There are some misconceptions throughout this thread. AOA eligibility and selection criteria vary from school to school. Some schools do require an application. I also disagree that it is "out of your control." There's no way anyone can tell the OP exactly what is or is not important with regard to obtaining AOA at his/her institution (unless you attend the same place and are a member).

OP, time to start volunteering. Do you have a free clinic? Try going once a month. Tutoring program for undergrads or lower-year med students? I'm sure you can find something. As others have said, AOA is not required for any specialty, but it is extremely helpful. There are known to be a few programs in very competitive specialties that use it as a screening tool, but this is rare.

 

[Mad Jack]

As you are a poster that seems more interested in the business side of medicine, I don't see why you're going after positions that tend to favor academics. If you open your own surgical center, people don't care if you went to Harvard or State Medical for residency.

Gunners be gunnin' though, what can ya do.

 

[KinasePro]

AOA at my shop is equal parts popularity contest and brown nosing. Random deans and the prior year's AOA members select new inductees from a pool of academically qualified applicants. The academic qualifications aren't that stringent-- it's something like top 20% and they don't even take boards into consideration. This means that AOA goes to the busy-bodies and extroverts who did decent during med school.

OP: i have seen your annoying threads on the ortho & gen surg forums that are clearly misinformed. On the orthogate forums, the program director at Columbia ortho estimated that less than half of the people they interview each year are AOA, and he doesn't keep track of which matched residents are or aren't AOA. So, AOA is mostly just a feather in your cap, and unless you have the personality of a cheerleader, you might not be able to get AOA at certain schools anyway.

 

[Mad Jack]

AOA at my shop is equal parts popularity contest and brown nosing. Random deans and the prior year's AOA members select new inductees from a pool of academically qualified applicants. The academic qualifications aren't that stringent-- it's something like top 20% and they don't even take boards into consideration. This means that AOA goes to the busy-bodies and extroverts who did decent during med school.

OP: i have seen your annoying threads on the ortho & gen surg forums that are clearly misinformed. On the orthogate forums, the program director at Columbia ortho estimated that less than half of the people they interview each year are AOA, and he doesn't keep track of which matched residents are or aren't AOA. So, AOA is mostly just a feather in your cap, and unless you have the personality of a cheerleader, you might not be able to get AOA at certain schools anyway.

Given the posting history, I expect the next thread to be in regard to what cheerleader uniform colors would be the most flattering and what "words" and "phrases" will make them appear most likable. Follow up questions to include, "when someone says jump, how high do they mean?"

Op, what advantages do you see to attending top versus mid tier programs, considering your future goals?

 

[nychila]

I appreciate everyone's feedback. I am happily doing extracurricular volunteer work at my school/community but it's relatively minimal compared to what seems to be required for an AOA candidate here. My school doesn't consider the Step 1 score either, so according to my Dean, a student with just above-average clinical grades but heavily involved is favored over a student with top 10% grades but is only minimally involved within the community. I would love to be as competitive as possible for AOA, but I'm not keen on sacrificing too much study time to pursue more extracurricular involvements.

I have many career interests, one of which is the business side of healthcare, but also includes academic medicine. I'm not quite as familiar with the former however, so I have asked more questions on SDN pertaining to the business aspect. Realistically I don't mind the "rank" of the hospital where I attend residency, but I do have strong preferences for where I would like to spend my training years. For example, there are only 3 hospitals in Boston with ortho programs, Harvard, BU, Tufts, and they are all fairly competitive. The follow-up question on surgery at the Brigham or ENT at Duke was just for comparison/curiosity sake - I don't think that either hospital is at the top of my wish list.

 

[redsquareblack]

I appreciate everyone's feedback. I am happily doing extracurricular volunteer work at my school/community but it's relatively minimal compared to what seems to be required for an AOA candidate here. My school doesn't consider the Step 1 score either, so according to my Dean, a student with just above-average clinical grades but heavily involved is favored over a student with top 10% grades but is only minimally involved within the community. I would love to be as competitive as possible for AOA, but I'm not keen on sacrificing too much study time to pursue more extracurricular involvements.

I have many career interests, one of which is the business side of healthcare, but also includes academic medicine. I'm not quite as familiar with the former however, so I have asked more questions on SDN pertaining to the business aspect. Realistically I don't mind the "rank" of the hospital where I attend residency, but I do have strong preferences for where I would like to spend my training years. For example, there are only 3 hospitals in Boston with ortho programs, Harvard, BU, Tufts, and they are all fairly competitive. The follow-up question on surgery at the Brigham or ENT at Duke was just for comparison/curiosity sake - I don't think that either hospital is at the top of my wish list.

Yeah... you should be fine. If you get AOA, great. If not, I wouldn't stress about it.

I'm guessing you're at Jefferson, but that's mostly because they have the craziest, most ridiculous AOA algorithm I've ever seen.

 

[DirtyJustice]

Straight from the AOA website:

The top 25 percent of a medical school class is eligible for nomination to the society, and up to 16 percent may be elected based on leadership, character, community service, and professionalism. Members may also be elected by chapters after demonstrating scholarly achievement and professional contributions and values during their careers in medicine. Distinguished professionals may also be elected to honorary membership

Seems for it to be fair that if someone had heavy ECs in Scholarly Acheivement (not grade related), professional contributions, leadership, or volunteerism would fit the definition (GIVEN BY AOA) to be AOA.

 

[ulikedaggers]

Straight from the AOA website:




Seems for it to be fair that if someone had heavy ECs in Scholarly Acheivement (not grade related), professional contributions, leadership, or volunteerism would fit the definition (GIVEN BY AOA) to be AOA.

That's true, with the caveat that they're in the top 25%. Plus don't some schools make the top 5% automatic senior AOA? Thus only 11% of people actually get elected based on ECs.

 

[evilbooyaa]

What a swing in regional areas and specialties.... Radiology in CA, NSG in NY, Ortho in Boston?

If you really want AOA, you have to jump through the hoops the school has put in front of you. Clearly you're still a first year, but I would try to somewhat narrow down your future residency path (even if you just get rid of Radiology that would be a big step, as Rads vs NSG/Ortho are on two opposite ends of the spectrum)

 

[DirtyJustice]

That's true, with the caveat that they're in the top 25%. Plus don't some schools make the top 5% automatic senior AOA? Thus only 11% of people actually get elected based on ECs.

I dunno about the top 5% rule. My school is completely gradeless and doesn't have rankings. Its really a mystery to all of us how they choose it.

 

[DrHitchcraft]

Dude wtf? Ortho, neurosurgery, ent? At Harvard? Chill out man most likely you won't be attaining these anyway. I hate first years that are still in the premed mode like they will only consider top hospitals and "competitive" specialties with no real world experience just to have some kind of premed prestige. Work hard, volunteer if AOA means that much to you, do well on step 1(wayyy more important) and get actual experience in these specialties before you worry about matching at top hospitals.

I love this statement.

The closer one is to the next major barrier to their career goals (e.g. medical school admissions, residency admissions), the more sobering/realistic their goals become.

 

[physicsnerd42]

Just work hard in school and do the extracurriculars you actually want to do. If you get AOA, that's fantastic. If you don't, then you spent your non-study time doing things you enjoy. AOA is nice, but it's not like that one aspect of your application will likely make or break you when it comes to residencies.