AOA Response to Nassar and LA Times

[DrfluffyMD]

Who cares. The point is that this virginia girl should lose her job for writing FAKE sorority talk.

What about the female high school teachers molesting and VAGINALLY RAPING little teenage boys? Not finger penetrating, actual vaginal rape.

Larry Nassar may have been a pedophile sicko or he may have been doing legit OMM techniques. It does not matter. Larry got 160 years and these vaginal rapist teachers get maybe 7 years. What’s up with that

This is the kind of post that the anti-DO crowd will have a field day with. Don’t let them have that.

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[nlax30]

Again, you have NO IDEA what are you talking about. You are talking about OMT technique of the shoulder. This has nothing to do with what I am talking about (intravaginal OMT techniques) which the AOA seem to have problem condemning. You are not personally familiar with the technique.

For example, just because it’s appropriate to place a large drain into an abscess cavity, doesn’t mean it’s appropriate to use the same technique to drain an intra aortic abscess. Just because you can do OMT for a shoulder injury, doesn’t mean OMT performed intravaginally is indicated or have evidence behind it or is useful at all.

I don’t have skin in this game. I am not a DO nor do I practice OMT. Why is it up to me to research this “technique”?

Honestly, some of the comments in this thread demostrate a lot of insensitivity and is quite appalling.

My goodness, the shoulder was an example of a technique done by both a therapist and physician.

I already explained that intravaginal myofascial trigger point release is apparently a technique done by physical therapists in some instances when treating pelvic floor muscle dysfunction. And I will say again that that same Theory/technique is used in OMT treatments of just about any muscle group you can get your hands on. So there’s one example for ya of an intravaginal OMT technique.

And i will call you out on the insensitivity comment. No where here am I being insensitive. What he did was horrible and I feel bad for all the victims involved.

To make the leap that specific techniques used by physical therapists and physicians in the proper settings should all be done away with is shortsighted and completely missing what the tragedy here is. This sick guy had unfettered access to numerous underage girls, took advantage of their trust and many many layers of protection failed them from their own parents not speaking up to coaches and school admin not doing a thing about complaints.

This guy was abusing girls even before he went to med school. This isn’t about a specific “technique”..... this is about a sick individual and an institution that failed many young girls.

 

[studentdoct4281]

no this is about the sorority girl journalist talking out her ass and stirring the pot. should be fired

 

[DrfluffyMD]

My goodness, the shoulder was an example of a technique done by both a therapist and physician.

I already explained that intravaginal myofascial trigger point release is apparently a technique done by physical therapists in some instances when treating pelvic floor muscle dysfunction. And I will say again that that same Theory/technique is used in OMT treatments of just about any muscle group you can get your hands on. So there’s one example for ya of an intravaginal OMT technique.

And i will call you out on the insensitivity comment. No where here am I being insensitive. What he did was horrible and I feel bad for all the victims involved.

To make the leap that specific techniques used by physical therapists and physicians in the proper settings should all be done away with is shortsighted and completely missing what the tragedy here is. This sick guy had unfettered access to numerous underage girls, took advantage of their trust and many many layers of protection failed them from their own parents not speaking up to coaches and school admin not doing a thing about complaints.

This guy was abusing girls even before he went to med school. This isn’t about a specific “technique”..... this is about a sick individual and an institution that failed many young girls.

Please, show me an article detailing the intravaginal OMT technique. Or do such a thing don’t exist? I am aware of those used by PT now, what I like to see is an OMT specific article.

 

[SLC]

Guys, DrFluffy has a pretty well established track record here, why are you even engaging him? This will go on for days unless people just ignore.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Guys, DrFluffy has a pretty well established track record here, why are you even engaging him? This will go on for days unless people just ignore.

Not exactly sure how this tragic situation involvig Nassar and inappropriate technique have anything to do with “a track record”.

Appearently it’s “wrong” to request scholarly article on an extremely shady form of OMT.

What you are doing right now, SLC, is frankly, against the TOS.

 

[DO2015CA]

Please, show me an article detailing the intravaginal OMT technique. Or do such a thing don’t exist? I am aware of those used by PT now, what I like to see is an OMT specific article.

Without having studied OMT you don’t understand that theories are applied to all facets of the body. He did give you a modality. MFR, myofascial release and yes it’s the same theory, albeit a different name than what the PT calls it. And that’s not defense intravaginal techniques, I wouldn’t do them, but he has given you an example

 

[ortnakas]

Nassar sexually assaulted countless women and girls with his position of authority as a doctor and role within USAG and the USOC. Without gloves. Without chaperone. Without consent. McKayla Maroney and other survivors recount incidents where they feared for their lives.

That’s assault, not “treatment.” I fail to see how it matters whether what he claimed to be doing is OMT vs PT vs anything else; no matter what he claimed it to be, it’s despicable.

 

[studentdoct4281]

Nassar sexually assaulted countless women and girls with his position of authority as a doctor and role within USAG and the USOC. Without gloves. Without chaperone. Without consent. McKayla Maroney and other survivors recount incidents where they feared for their lives.

That’s assault, not “treatment.” I fail to see how it matters whether what he claimed to be doing is OMT vs PT vs anything else; no matter what he claimed it to be, it’s despicable.

Orntakaks it’s already established the guy was a creep. the journalist should be fired for her, becoming the norm, fake newz

 

[nlax30]

Please, show me an article detailing the intravaginal OMT technique. Or do such a thing don’t exist? I am aware of those used by PT now, what I like to see is an OMT specific article.

Pelvic floor myofascial trigger points: manual therapy for interstitial cystitis and the urgency-frequency syndrome. - PubMed - NCBI

This is apparently an MD who now focuses on pelvic floor treatments but this same technique for myofascial trigger points is commonly used in OMT treatments. At this point it’s just semantics of calling it “pelvic floor manual therapy”.

 

[nlax30]

And since Nassar apparently also abused girls before he went to med school under the guise of being a sports trainer/therapist i don’t see why you’re getting hung up on having the AOA call out a specific generic physician modality used by PTs, DOs AND MDs.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Again, you have NO IDEA what are you talking about.

Well someone here has no idea what they are talking about but it’s not person you think it is..

Just because you can do OMT for a shoulder injury, doesn’t mean OMT performed intravaginally is indicated or have evidence behind it or is useful at all.

I don’t think you have even the slightest clue of what OMT is. Many of the things we get taught are literally THE EXACT same as those things taught in PT school..

Honestly, some of the comments in this thread demostrate a lot of insensitivity and is quite appalling.

Yeah I’m going to call you out on this too. No one in this thread is being insensitive, you saying this is as much Fake News as that LA OP/ED is.

Pelvic floor myofascial trigger points: manual therapy for interstitial cystitis and the urgency-frequency syndrome. - PubMed - NCBI

This is apparently an MD who now focuses on pelvic floor treatments but this same technique for myofascial trigger points is commonly used in OMT treatments. At this point it’s just semantics of calling it “pelvic floor manual therapy”.

No no no this is an MD performed valid treatment and is not OMT, I want a specific article that uses the exact terms OMT to describe the technique done only by DOs. This is completely different.

/s

 

[SLC]

No no no this is an MD performed valid treatment and is not OMT, I want a specific article that uses the exact terms OMT to describe the technique done only by DOs. This is completely different.

/s

Pretty much this...

 

[harvey1222]

Finally someone blew the whistle on useless OMT techniques. Please do the country a favor: get rid of DO leadership associations, cut out lower tier DO schools with low quality education and rotations, convert the remainder to MD and place them under LCME control before the COCA destroys our profession and condemns us to primary care.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Without having studied OMT you don’t understand that theories are applied to all facets of the body. He did give you a modality. MFR, myofascial release and yes it’s the same theory, albeit a different name than what the PT calls it. And that’s not defense intravaginal techniques, I wouldn’t do them, but he has given you an example

And my argument earlier is that just because a technique maybe applied to the shoulder, it isn’t necessary appropriate for all areas of the body.

Regardless, AOA would be served well by creating distance.

Well someone here has no idea what they are talking about but it’s not person you think it is..



I don’t think you have even the slightest clue of what OMT is. Many of the things we get taught are literally THE EXACT same as those things taught in PT school..



Yeah I’m going to call you out on this too. No one in this thread is being insensitive, you saying this is as much Fake News as that LA OP/ED is.



No no no this is an MD performed valid treatment and is not OMT, I want a specific article that uses the exact terms OMT to describe the technique done only by DOs. This is completely different.

/s

Just like to see an article or textbook or any thing where a DO, rather than a PT, performing this modality. Why is it so difficult for a supposedly legitimate modality?

I cannot believe I am debating with people who are defending the perverse thing that sicko do.

 

[nlax30]

And my argument earlier is that just because a technique maybe applied to the shoulder, it isn’t necessary appropriate for all areas of the body.

Regardless, AOA would be served well by creating distance


Just like to see an article or textbook or any thing where a DO, rather than a PT, performing this modality. Why is it so difficult for a supposedly legitimate modality?

I cannot believe I am debating with people who are defending the perverse thing that sicko do.

Again, who is defending what this guy did??

And it doesn’t matter who is performing this technique. It’s the technique itself you supposedly had a problem with and never knew existed. And that’s not even mentioning that Nassar likely wasn’t even performing these techniques but just hiding behind his license. That doesn’t mean the proper technique is bad.

 

[nlax30]

And see above the link to the Urology journal article detailing pelvic floor myofascial manual therapy....by an MD no less.

 

[DO2015CA]

And my argument earlier is that just because a technique maybe applied to the shoulder, it isn’t necessary appropriate for all areas of the body.

Regardless, AOA would be served well by creating distance.




Just like to see an article or textbook or any thing where a DO, rather than a PT, performing this modality. Why is it so difficult for a supposedly legitimate modality?

I cannot believe I am debating with people who are defending the perverse thing that sicko do.

Lol that’s what you take out of that statement. Not the fact that it can be applied elsewhere and is being successfully done by PTs (MD,DO,etc). A myofascial technique is applicable anywhere there is fascia since that is the directed target. Pretty sure the pelvic floor muscles are covered in fascia. Ignorance isn’t an excuse to be inflammatory.

Okay we get it you dislike OMT and possibly DOs. Can we move on now? Starting to sound like a broken record with you.

 

[sab3156]

Can we all just agree that OMM has no place in medical school? Let's just push for abolishing it from DO school forever, and leave the relevant pieces to the PTs.

 

[studentdoct4281]

Step in the real world man

 

[deleted831695]

Can we all just agree that OMM has no place in medical school? Let's just push for abolishing it from DO school forever, and leave the relevant pieces to the PTs.

Take away some of the more questionable stuff and it's fine. Plus hard cap the amount of OMM to 2 hours max/week. I've definitely felt better after having gotten some OMM done on me.

I rather COMLEX gets eradicated, and it's only USMLE but with an additional required OMM section for DOs only. Plus "DOs" should just be "MD.O, MD-O, MD/O."

 

[studentdoct4281]

If DOs pass usmle 1 through 3 or mds pass comlex 1-3 licensing exams then should be md/do license, especially if combining residencies. Otherwise it’s just political BS. And if you are trying to “abolish” omm your actually an idiot and haven’t ever practiced it real world

 

[68PGunner]

If DOs pass usmle 1 through 3 or mds pass comlex 1-3 licensing exams then should be md/do license, especially if combining residencies. Otherwise it’s just political BS. And if you are trying to “abolish” omm your actually an idiot and haven’t ever practiced it real world

OMM has its place in term of acute/chronic management. However, there're certain garbage techniques that should be tossed like the pelvic diaphragm release, intravaginal mumbo jumbo, cranial bs, and some other crap out there.

I made a promise to myself that I would rather flunk a practical exam if the grader gives me a pelvic diaphragm release technique. Luckily, I haven't been asked to perform such task so far.

 

[hallowmann]

...Just like to see an article or textbook or any thing where a DO, rather than a PT, performing this modality. Why is it so difficult for a supposedly legitimate modality?...

Not going to reply to the rest because its designed to be inflammatory.

With regards to the above: because its an obscure technique used only by specialists in specific fields (e.g. urology). None of us on this forum are specialists in the realm of intravaginal techniques. None of us were actually taught them or tested on them in medical school. Why would any of us have a textbook on it? You've already been provided with documentation and reports of it being used by both physical therapists and physicians alike. You're being purposefully obtuse on this.

Also, you should be well aware that many aspects of our "modern practice" is not actually based in evidence. We certainly strive for them to be, but they aren't. We are constantly modifying our practice because of the discovery that what we do is either not as effective, useless, or even harmful. That's not even to mention that parts of what we do that have significant patient-centered aspects and have to be adjusted and tweaked based on a variety of things from the patient's specific condition, their ability to implement, access, or afford certain treatments, and our own capabilities as practitioners. That's medicine in all of its imperfection.

If DOs pass usmle 1 through 3 or mds pass comlex 1-3 licensing exams then should be md/do license, especially if combining residencies. Otherwise it’s just political BS...

Licensing exams don't get you a degree, they make you eligible for a license. The school from which you graduate defines your degree. It just so happens that in the US we have two types of schools from which you can attain a medical license.

Your state law defines from whom you get your license. Many states have only one medical licensing board that provides both MDs and DOs (and MBBSs and MBChBs and BMBCh, etc.) with a license. In other states, the boards are separated into Medical and Osteopathic Medical boards. This is usually a function of historical context or DO lobbying.

There really is no true use for the COMLEX at this point, because you could easily test OMT knowledge with something like the OMM shelf, but it will persist due primarily to history, the existence of the NBOME, and political inertia with regards to changing state laws for the licensure of DOs and changing COCA policies for the requirements of DO schools.

As an aside:
The political context is interesting, and usually follows a similar story about DOs not being allowed to participate in the past in aspects of medical education, training, and licensure run by MDs despite legal equality (which varied significantly by state), so many had to create their own versions of everything. One interesting thing is that the ASO's (American School of Osteopathy, now ATSU-KCOM) original charter given by the state designated them to confer the MD degree, but Still sent it back requesting conferring of the "Diplomat of Osteopathy" (original DO) degree.

Its also interested that even as early as the 1910-1920s DO leadership had discussed things like merging with MD schools, since the medical establishment has started to incorporate ideas like homeostasis, self-regulating and self-healing properties of the body, the importance of the mind, and developed medicines that were actually beneficial to patients unlike the "heroic" medicines of the late 1800s. Its interesting that Still initially didn't mind the idea, but later vehemently rejected it after talking to more of his students and reverted to his dogmatic view of "drugs = bad". Its also interesting how despite this, the DO establishment actually did advance, did incorporate all aspects of modern medicine, and became functionally equivalent to MD schools within decades. So much so that a school like UC Irvine could change overnight from conferring the DO degree to the MD degree.

 

[sab3156]

And if you are trying to “abolish” omm your actually an idiot and haven’t ever practiced it real world

There is no evidence to say that much of OMM is actually working (but I guess DOs who practice a lot of OMM don't care about evidence based medicine). Leave the MSK stuff to the PTs. No one wants to become a PT during medical school. There is PT school for that. It has no place in medical school. No need to be an angry OMM apologist.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I cannot believe I am debating with people who are defending the perverse thing that sicko do.

You and I must be reading a completely different thread then. Also I highly suggest you go read what Nassar actually did, he wasn’t using gloves, no lubricant, no chaperone, and was forceful in his actions to the point where many of his victims were worried for their lives. I don’t care what the technique actually entails because I’ll never use it but that most definitely isn’t it. That’s like a surgeon operating on a patient without scrubbing, using only laughing gas, and cutting with only kitchen utensils.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

but I guess DOs who practice a lot of OMM don't care about evidence based medicine

I dislike OMM as much as you but this argument doesn’t work because a lot of what modern medicine does has very little evidence for it, or even evidence against it in certain cases, yet it is done all the time.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

As a future DO, I applaud his response. So much shade are being thrown at osteopathic medicine already, we don't need more.

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

 

[Osminog]

I dislike OMM as much as you but this argument doesn’t work because a lot of what modern medicine does has very little evidence for it, or even evidence against it in certain cases, yet it is done all the time.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[2021Doctor]

I think that the smoking gun is that this went on at MSU for about 20 years. Where was the oversight?

 

[DO2015CA]

There is no evidence to say that much of OMM is actually working (but I guess DOs who practice a lot of OMM don't care about evidence based medicine). Leave the MSK stuff to the PTs. No one wants to become a PT during medical school. There is PT school for that. It has no place in medical school. No need to be an angry OMM apologist.

Meh speak for yourself. I enjoyed learning the MSK stuff. Even if I don’t use it in clinic, I gained valuable functional anatomy knowledge. I am no where near a DO fanatic, but OMM is par for the course. If people hate OMM that much then they need to make their application more competitive for a MD program

I agree the cranial, Chapman points, and visceral manipulations suck, but it’s par for the course.

I am okay with changing curriculum but a lot of the stuff I learned was valuable. I also come from a school where the professors weren’t fanatics. One did mainly MET and the other was a BLT. We learned cranial because we had to for boards

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Wut? No one ever said it did, but if you’re going to use that argument for OMM then you need to recognize that a good chunk what you will be doing as a practicing doc will have the same lack of evidence.

If people hate OMM that much then they need to make their application more competitive for an MD program

I agree. You don’t have to like it but you at least have to suck it up and do it. I just consider it my punishment for screwing around as a freshmen in college lol.

I think that the smoking gun is that this went on at MSU for about 20 years. Where was the oversight?

I think this is the biggest issue honestly. I mean he was called “crotch doc” for years and no one thought to even ask why they called him that? Or to tell him he needed a chaperone if he was going to be doing these types of “treatments”?

 

[jw3600]

I’ve long since gotten rid of any OMT related textbooks I may have had as I just don’t use it in my field.

Any DO students here still have one? Would be interested to see what it says about any sort of intravaginal related techniques and if that lines up with what I see mentioned in the physiotherapy and urology relms.

See this is what drives me nuts. Are you seriously ****ing saying to consult an OMM textbook? You mean the same one that talks about cranialsacral therapy, Chapman’s point, and viscerosomatic reflexes? Might as well consult Harry Potter. Appealing to the authority of a book that teaches pseudoscience like Chapman’s points for a “technique” that was even PROVEN to be beneficial is delusional. Not seeing the gaping hole in this thinking is truly frightening to me. The integrity of the cited source matters dramatically.

 

[Rekt]

Why are we defending OMM here? My school pumps out >200 DOs a year and never once did they mention intravaginal OMM or even anything in the same ballpark. It should not be done, no matter what, and that's the simple truth. The only reason I knew it even existed because someone bumped a thread from 2003 about "hearing about pelvic/vaginal OMT" and they were asking if anyone has heard of this being done.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Why are we defending OMM here? My school pumps out >200 DOs a year and never once did they mention intravaginal OMM or even anything in the same ballpark. It should not be done, no matter what, and that's the simple truth. The only reason I knew it even existed because someone bumped a thread from 2003 about "hearing about pelvic/vaginal OMT" and they were asking if anyone has heard of this being done.

Supposedly that’s the thread where Nassar’s victim was crying for help. Of course posters jumped in to say that “this is a legitimate technique”.

This tragedy should not occur again. Those aren’t legitimate techniques.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

I sometimes wonder if the Nassar tragedy was allowed to go on for so long precisely because of sentiment that is evident in this thread.

Instead of using critical thinking to evaluate the situation or investigate scientifically into each modality, the blanket term of “OMT” is used to cover grossly deviant practice. When those practices are questions, people like those victims or other medical professionals maybe ridiculed because they lack “the secret knowledge” of OMT despite unable to produce text, article or reseach backing those practices.

Indeed, I can image this happen to other women again and people will again try to justify those behaviora as evident by things said in this thread.

It’s time for AOA to distance themselves from this mumbo jumbo, just like modern medicine distanced itself from radium water and blood letting.

And to the DO students, I have no intention of insulting your profession. If you go read my threads, you will realize my issue is with AOA and OMT, not indivdual students. It would be far better if everyone becomes LCME.

 

[nlax30]

See this is what drives me nuts. Are you seriously ****ing saying to consult an OMM textbook? You mean the same one that talks about cranialsacral therapy, Chapman’s point, and viscerosomatic reflexes? Might as well consult Harry Potter. Appealing to the authority of a book that teaches pseudoscience like Chapman’s points for a “technique” that was even PROVEN to be beneficial is delusional. Not seeing the gaping hole in this thinking is truly frightening to me. The integrity of the cited source matters dramatically.

You missed the entire purpose behind that. All he wanted was some sort of osteopathic source that mentioned of documented presence of some sort of intravaginal technique.

I’m not debating the merits or not if various OMM therapies or the sources.

 

[nlax30]

Supposedly that’s the thread where Nassar’s victim was crying for help. Of course posters jumped in to say that “this is a legitimate technique”.

This tragedy should not occur again. Those aren’t legitimate techniques.

I’m gonna end it with this.

What Nassar did was NOT legitimate techniques.

I’ve already given you examples of legitimate intravaginal manual therapies that are performed by both PTs AND physicians so intravaginal techniques do exist. He was not doing that. He was abusing girls.

I’m in a pretty specialized field and do procedures that I never even heard of during med school. Not every single therapeutic modality is or will be taught in med school so using that as an argument against a therapy’s utility is ridiculous.

 

[nlax30]

I sometimes wonder if the Nassar tragedy was allowed to go on for so long precisely because of sentiment that is evident in this thread.

Instead of using critical thinking to evaluate the situation or investigate scientifically into each modality, the blanket term of “OMT” is used to cover grossly deviant practice. When those practices are questions, people like those victims or other medical professionals maybe ridiculed because they lack “the secret knowledge” of OMT despite unable to produce text, article or reseach backing those practices.

Indeed, I can image this happen to other women again and people will again try to justify those behaviora as evident by things said in this thread.

It’s time for AOA to distance themselves from this mumbo jumbo, just like modern medicine distanced itself from radium water and blood letting.

And to the DO students, I have no intention of insulting your profession. If you go read my threads, you will realize my issue is with AOA and OMT, not indivdual students. It would be far better if everyone becomes LCME.

The ESPN had a nice long article detailing his history and was one of the better ones I read. Looking at that one there multiple levels that failed these girls and it mostly seemed to be either parents that didn’t believe their daughter, the fact that he had some strange unwaivering trust in himself amongst these families and this was all in a culture of a high intensity program where you had young likely naive girls for whom this was all they knew.... going to practice, getting yelled at by a coach with demands to push their body more and then private sessions with this Nassar guy to help “heal” their bodies. Multiple aspects failed these girls. If he was an MD and didn’t study “OMT” in med school we’d still be in this mess as he was doing this before med school as just a trainer.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

I’m gonna end it with this.

What Nassar did was NOT legitimate techniques.

I’ve already given you examples of legitimate intravaginal manual therapies that are performed by both PTs AND physicians so intravaginal techniques do exist. He was not doing that. He was abusing girls.

I’m in a pretty specialized field and do procedures that I never even heard of during med school. Not every single therapeutic modality is or will be taught in med school so using that as an argument against a therapy’s utility is ridiculous.

We can end it here of course. I still do not see any literature support intravaginal osteopathic manual therapy cited in this whole thread, just being told over and over again that “it’s just PT” (perhaps AOA can release a positional statement to that effect.)

Being a subspecialist, I am well aware of obscure techniques and procedures. Yet I challenge you to find a procedure used by modern medicine where there isn’t even a literature available describing it.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

The ESPN had a nice long article detailing his history and was one of the better ones I read. Looking at that one there multiple levels that failed these girls and it mostly seemed to be either parents that didn’t believe their daughter, the fact that he had some strange unwaivering trust in himself amongst these families and this was all in a culture of a high intensity program where you had young likely naive girls for whom this was all they knew.... going to practice, getting yelled at by a coach with demands to push their body more and then private sessions with this Nassar guy to help “heal” their bodies. Multiple aspects failed these girls. If he was an MD and didn’t study “OMT” in med school we’d still be in this mess as he was doing this before med school as just a trainer.

Fanastic, blaming the victim’s family now. I imagine most victim’s family did not want to imagine their physician as a molester and will take whatever explaination at face value. It’s actually up to our own profession to police ourselves.

If you tell a patient’s family that you need to do a life saving injection in a sick kid than injected KCL, is it the parents fault that they trusted you?

 

[IsWhat]

I sometimes wonder if the Nassar tragedy was allowed to go on for so long precisely because of sentiment that is evident in this thread.

Instead of using critical thinking to evaluate the situation or investigate scientifically into each modality, the blanket term of “OMT” is used to cover grossly deviant practice. When those practices are questions, people like those victims or other medical professionals maybe ridiculed because they lack “the secret knowledge” of OMT despite unable to produce text, article or reseach backing those practices.

Indeed, I can image this happen to other women again and people will again try to justify those behaviora as evident by things said in this thread.

It’s time for AOA to distance themselves from this mumbo jumbo, just like modern medicine distanced itself from radium water and blood letting.

And to the DO students, I have no intention of insulting your profession. If you go read my threads, you will realize my issue is with AOA and OMT, not indivdual students. It would be far better if everyone becomes LCME.

This is probably on its way. The LCME is more powerful than COCA and could probably bulldoze its way through COCA right now if they wanted to. Many DO schools don’t pay for their students third year rotations, and thus pawn off true clinical education to larger teaching institutions as fourth year electives. Just imagine if the LCME required DO students to pay $5,000 for 4th year elective rotations at all of their institutions (places like U of Colorado already do this and they aren’t shy about the reason why, aka. what I said above).

 

[DO2015CA]

I sometimes wonder if the Nassar tragedy was allowed to go on for so long precisely because of sentiment that is evident in this thread.

Instead of using critical thinking to evaluate the situation or investigate scientifically into each modality, the blanket term of “OMT” is used to cover grossly deviant practice. When those practices are questions, people like those victims or other medical professionals maybe ridiculed because they lack “the secret knowledge” of OMT despite unable to produce text, article or reseach backing those practices.

Indeed, I can image this happen to other women again and people will again try to justify those behaviora as evident by things said in this thread.

It’s time for AOA to distance themselves from this mumbo jumbo, just like modern medicine distanced itself from radium water and blood letting.

And to the DO students, I have no intention of insulting your profession. If you go read my threads, you will realize my issue is with AOA and OMT, not indivdual students. It would be far better if everyone becomes LCME.

We can agree on this

 

[nlax30]

We can end it here of course. I still do not see any literature support intravaginal osteopathic manual therapy cited in this whole thread, just being told over and over again that “it’s just PT” (perhaps AOA can release a positional statement to that effect.)

Being a subspecialist, I am well aware of obscure techniques and procedures. Yet I challenge you to find a procedure used by modern medicine where there isn’t even a literature available describing it.

For the record I gave you an article from a Urologist that talked about intravaginal manual therapy.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

the blanket term of “OMT” is used to cover grossly deviant practice

Uh wut? Come on man, you are intentionally being obtuse. I don’t give two craps about OMT but you are way off base

For the record I gave you an article from a Urologist that talked about intravaginal manual therapy.

But it’s not clearly labeled as OMT so clearly it’s somethig completely different

 

[nlax30]

Fanastic, blaming the victim’s family now. I imagine most victim’s family did not want to imagine their physician as a molester and will take whatever explaination at face value. It’s actually up to our own profession to police ourselves.

If you tell a patient’s family that you need to do a life saving injection in a sick kid than injected KCL, is it the parents fault that they trusted you?

Stop putting words in my mouth.

Did you read that ESPN article?

Parents would drop their underage girl off at his house, after hours and leave them there with him alone.

Another instance the father flat out refused to believe his daughter and made her apologize to him and admit she was lying until years later when she again told him she was not lying and he finally realized this stuff was going on. He ultimately commited suicide, to some degree the daughter thinks in part to the guilt he carried around.

I’m not blaming the family. But as a parent myself these situations just boggle my mind. Obviously we have hindsight but I still can’t imagine how I would let a daughter get into a position like this.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Stop putting words in my mouth.

Did you read that ESPN article?

Parents would drop their underage girl off at his house, after hours and leave them there with him alone.

Another instance the father flat out refused to believe his daughter and made her apologize to him and admit she was lying until years later when she again told him she was not lying and he finally realized this stuff was going on. He ultimately commited suicide, to some degree the daughter thinks in part to the guilt he carried around.

I’m not blaming the family. But as a parent myself these situations just boggle my mind. Obviously we have hindsight but I still can’t imagine how I would let a daughter get into a position like this.

The author of that op ed piece will have a field day with this thread.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

The author of that op ed piece will have a field day with this thread.

Nah, there is no way she would have as selective reading to the extent that you have done. It’s like you don’t even bother to read what people say and just look for buzz words. As a parent I can tell you that I don’t care if Mother Teresa asks me to take my daughter to their house after hours and drop them off for treatment, I’m going to be suspicious and ask questions. The parents absolutely have a part to play in this, anyone the girls told who didn’t believe them bares some level of responsibility.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

This thread isn't productive and will be closed.