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ap/cp fail = blacklisted?
- Thread starter elburrito
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I doubt it. People fail for various reasons. That is life.
Just work hard and keep your head down. Pass it next time. It will all work out.
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Agree. How would they know anyway?
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What do you mean? You will start fellowship long before getting your scores. Do you mean you will show up to the hospital one day and all of a suddent your keys don't work?
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I think only you and your program director will know you fail. Now, if your program director is a big gossip and tells everyone, including people in your new "prestegious" fellowship, then yes.
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Depends on the attendings. Some of the junior ones may not have themselves passed yet.
D
deleted314957
i have been asked in deposition if i ever failed a board exam.
"Blacklisted" implies some sort of conspiracy to keep you down that isn't really your fault. Failing the boards is both your problem and your fault (in a sense).
Fellowship it shouldn't matter, you are already there, you have a chance to take it again. Many pathologists have failed and then passed the next year. There really is very little shame in that. The problem is if you can't pass it at all, ever. You might have trouble getting a job in that situation. And as said above, any legal problem you potentially have will be exponentially worse if you are not board certified, since that just makes you an easy target.
Fellowship it shouldn't matter, you are already there, you have a chance to take it again. Many pathologists have failed and then passed the next year. There really is very little shame in that. The problem is if you can't pass it at all, ever. You might have trouble getting a job in that situation. And as said above, any legal problem you potentially have will be exponentially worse if you are not board certified, since that just makes you an easy target.
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Just retake it and pass. You may be asked if you have ever failed a board exam when you are being underwritten for malpractice insurance. It doesn't really effect much though. Many physicians do not pass boards on the first try. Try not to let it damage your ego too much, buckle down, and get it done the next time. Good luck.
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Not really, no. Admission to a prestegious fellowship implies they had an opening and needed a puppet to move the meat. You were just the first sucker to say yes.
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Are you working through some kind of Tiger Mom issues? No one wants to fail their boards, but things happen. I can't tell if you just took your exam and are sure you failed, or already failed and are nervous about starting a fellowship (given timing, you would presumably already have been a fellow of some sort this year), or are just fretting about it, or what. In my experience, even prestigious places have their share of mishaps--boards failures, people with illnesses, substance issues, all sorts of assorted speed bumps. They should be used to dealing with them by now. Most likely, no one really cares. If they have taken you on as a trainee, they want to help you succeed. Just act as normal as possible about whatever your circumstances may be.
If you really are retaking the boards, don't try to hide it from your colleagues; it will just make studying more difficult.
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Are the Board CP questions in groups, like the RIse where you do 40 BB, then 40 Chm, etc or is it all random?
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Some people are 'holier than thou' twerps, and may act out to one extent or another, or quietly lower their regard & expectations, in reference to people not passing an exam. Most of us got where we are because we historically did -well- on exams, and were probably one of those 'holier than thou' twerps to one extent or another at some point in our lives, even if we were very polite about it. It's fine to feel like you let other people down and let yourself down. The issue is how you deal with it. People with a LOT more failure under their belts than that have done extremely well for themselves in the long run. Recognize it as a miss, take it as a growing experience, and get ready for the next shot.
The thing about fellowships is that they want you to pass the subspecialty board (if there is one) for their fellowship. They might not -like- it if you didn't pass AP/CP or some part of it, but that may simply mean they'll work -harder- with you or push you harder going forward. Take the silver lining.
The thing about fellowships is that they want you to pass the subspecialty board (if there is one) for their fellowship. They might not -like- it if you didn't pass AP/CP or some part of it, but that may simply mean they'll work -harder- with you or push you harder going forward. Take the silver lining.
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El, you've got to get over this. If you failed, it is really not the end of the world. You will retake the exam, pass it, and no one will care. If someone thinks less of you because you did not pass on the first try, that is really his/her problem. Everyone makes mistakes or has a bad day. It's ok. Accept it and move on. Good luck.
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Why i
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To equate you career/job as your life's worth is erroneous logic. This is sometimes supported by the environment in medicine. Work to live, don't live to work. Help others along the way.
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Have you taken the boards? The sentence that says "failue on the boards = did not know the material well enough to pass" make me think not. Sure there are many recurrent themes and topics on the boards..especially in AP. But for me, CP was a crap shoot. The information you are often tested on is random and frequently irrelevant for general Pathology practice. So I don't think you can say that failure of the boards means you didn't know your discipline well enough to pass. There are a lot of factorss involved included but not limited to your personal life situations prior to boards, training experience, study habits, test taking ability/endurance and even whether or not you attempt AP & CP together or seperately. I did pass my boards but at the time I felt it could have gone either way..especially on CP. I just don't correlate the board passage so closely to reflect a person's ability as I think you do. Just my 2 cents.
Pathguy11
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You really think this? This is not a recipe for happiness or fulfillment or, for that matter, career success IMO. At least not one typical of western culture.
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You are really too hard on yourself.
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You have a fair number of replies. If you want to keep flogging yourself, go for it. But do so recognizing it's by your own choice.
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Have you stopped and thought about the possibility that the only one who might have this perception is yourself?
How would you even know what other people "look down upon" or "perceive in a different light"?
I don't want to come across as rude, but you might want to talk to a professional about this sort of thing. If this is how you really feel, its not healthy at all. You will never be number 1, and there will always be someone better. That is a fact of medicine and the world in which you live...and you know what, it's O.K.
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I have known several residents who have not passed the boards on the first try. My immediate thought has always been how I must have failed them as a teacher by not preparing the resident well enough for the exam, and what I could have done differently to have helped them pass.
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Slow down and get a grip, man. Tests and real life are different animals. Plenty of people are knowledgable, great doctors but not great multiple choice test takers. Plus, life circumstances happen to everyone, sometimes at inopportune times.
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I understand what you're saying, but I think you're making it out to be more of deal that it really is...almost an attack on one's professional/personal conduct and personality. In the past several years at my program there have been 2 people who have failed either CP or AP. Yes, the program talks and news spreads like wild fire, but the attendings always wondered what they could have done differently to support these residents. As for the residents, we just get really scared and this gives us more incentive to study. One resident who failed was flaky. The other had personal issues going on at that time. One went on to do a fellowship at a prestigious institution and now has a pretty good private practice gig in the Northeast. The other also did a fellowship and is working, too. They both are happy.
Personally, I signed up to take AP/CP a couple of years ago. A few days before flying down to Tampa, my baby was diagnosed in utero with a tumor. If I had not delayed my exam (a rare shout out to the ABP for allowing this), I would have surely failed since I was mentally a mess. If I had failed, I would have been disappointed, but there are more important issues in life than failing a test (and most likely passing it the next round), like the health of loved ones. I am sure if I had told people my situation they would be understanding. I'm just letting you see the bigger picture--it's not the end of the world and you should not judge people for failing.
Personally, I signed up to take AP/CP a couple of years ago. A few days before flying down to Tampa, my baby was diagnosed in utero with a tumor. If I had not delayed my exam (a rare shout out to the ABP for allowing this), I would have surely failed since I was mentally a mess. If I had failed, I would have been disappointed, but there are more important issues in life than failing a test (and most likely passing it the next round), like the health of loved ones. I am sure if I had told people my situation they would be understanding. I'm just letting you see the bigger picture--it's not the end of the world and you should not judge people for failing.
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Think whatever you want bro, but you are going to have issues when you start practice thinking like that.
D
deleted314957
i second this becuase you are going to make serious mistakes over the course of your professional career that will seriously impact patients. you need to wrap your head around this now because if you are stuck in your current mindset you will be unable to carry out a successful and fulfilling practice in pathology or any other field in medicine..
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You are going to have issues if you really think this way. It is only a matter of time before you miss a diagnosis or overcall something. It is not a matter of if, it is a matter of when. Is this a failure ("sin" as you put it)? No it is reality and shows that you are human. On the most basic level of doing not harm, the goal of our training is the learn as much as possible so that we minimize the times that our diagnosis are incorrect and thus runs the risk of adversley effecting a patient. Also, it's meant to be a time to learn your limitations, learn when to ask for a consult, learn when to hedge on a diagnosis, and know when to admit that you don't know the answer. Again this is reality no weakness. The same is true for board exams. They are a form of standardized test to try to ensure that you have the knowledge that is expectes "to practice" following your training. As most would agree on here who have taken boards though, there is a TON of material on them that is random and has nothing to do with real life practice. So to make a direct connection between board passage/failure and the type of Pathologist you would be is impossible. For the record, I DID pass both AP & CP on the first try but I know other who haven't. I don't think less of these people at all because for all I know, I could have been one or two questions away from failing myself, that the exam is the exam is a real B!$%#, and that I have something you seem not to...perspective. Most passed on the second attempt that I know. Your view of this whole thing is very black and white... if you pass boards then you must be an almighty, perfect Pathologist but if you fail then you aren't even worth the oxygen you breathe. Perhaps I exaggerate some but seriously this is the sort of message you are sending with your response. Bottomline, in my opinion, it is probably people like you with these sort of ideas that DO consider those who fail boards as "second class citizens". Think about it. In a way you are your own worst enemy.
Do you mind me asking what religion you are? In find the use of the term "sin" for failure very interesting.
Pathguy11
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Yaaah are you out there? Can you please close this ridiculous thread.
Oy. Lots of people fail boards. I have friends who failed boards who are spectacular patholgists. I have a firend who took the boards cold cuz he said it was cheaper to see the test once than to go to Osler. I have friends who failed and we all thought "yeah, saw that coming". I also have friends that passed the boards who I wouldnt want reading anything of mine or anyone I know. Goes both ways.
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Eh, bringing connotations of religion to such a discussion strongly suggests to me that you're not in it for the discussion. Dunno exactly what the problem is, but I have to consider overstereotyped Catholic guilt or the inability to deal with fear, anxiety, and guilt, or something in the personality disorder realm that just can't be helped. At the risk of sounding harsh, grow up and get a grip. If religion was really the problem then you'd cope by understanding that no-one is perfect, at least no-one truly mortal, and if religion were not an issue you'd cope by understanding that no-one is perfect and what people care about that is on a bell curve/continuum -- a few folks will look up or down on you regardless of your successes or failures. But it really sounds like you're just drawing on all the big concepts you can to support the fear that you're not as perfect as you always hoped, thought, or simply expected you are. Either way, almost certainly you are more concerned about it than anyone else in this dimension, and while there is some utility in a controlled amount of healthy fear motivating one to succeed, there comes a point when it's self defeating.
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Like I said earlier.. it's okay, and even expected, that not passing -- even the thought of not passing, or feeling like you didn't do that well on the boards -- would bother you. But not everybody can or does pass the first time, and you can't let that completely dominate you. It's disappointing if it happens, and a few individuals or subcultures might not deal with it very well, but I think the consistent theme is that in isolation it doesn't matter that much. I think those that have told you your day-to-day work product and ability to interact in a professional setting are more important are on the money.
Even though I'm not really in that loop anymore, I've heard a couple of stories of absurd things fellows at at least a couple of Big-Name-Programs have done or not done. Like someone else recently posted, knowledge and experience come with their lumps -- let it make you better, rather than letting it destroy you.
Even though I'm not really in that loop anymore, I've heard a couple of stories of absurd things fellows at at least a couple of Big-Name-Programs have done or not done. Like someone else recently posted, knowledge and experience come with their lumps -- let it make you better, rather than letting it destroy you.
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You cannot and will never be perfect because nothing is. It is great to want to be the best pathologist you want to be, but have you ever read articles that discuss diagnosis concordance rates among pathologists? Sometimes, only 60-70% of pathologists will make the same diagnosis given the same slides. Who is right? Who is wrong? Who is the sinner? You can only do the best you can do and be understanding when others don't live up to your idea of "perfect."
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In theory those questions have to do with being qualified as an expert witness. However, supposedly an expert witness merely has to have training or experience above and beyond that of the average layperson -- i.e., a medical school dropout (probably not a "fail" out, but a dropout). Where these kinds of questions I think play more of a role is in the clash of experts, where each side is trying to put their expert(s) on a pedestal and knock the other side's down even the tiniest notch. In my experience, those battles are relatively rare -- but do get a lot of attention.
