APhA president- we need an additional 100,000 pharmacists!

[BMBiology]

Lawrence Brown is currently the associated Dean of Chapman University and last year's APhA president. He goes on SDN to recruit students and according to him, the profession will need an additional "100,000 or so pharmacists" to meet future demand. I am not kidding you! Read it yourself:

I've been on the Board of Trustees for the American Pharmacists Association (APhA) , and I am currently the APhA President, so I have a much fuller view of the pharmacy world than the typical pharmacist. I know about the challenges that community pharmacists are facing, and I know about the great work that pharmacists are doing in community pharmacies and other emerging roles. Provider status will bring us recognition and reimbursement much sooner than you think.

And as the market for embedded pharmacists opens up, we will need an additional 100,000 or so pharmacists to meet the demand. But we won't get there by being negative about what pharmacists can do.

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[RPh Who]

There are approximately 295k pharmacists in the US per 2015 BLS statistics. So, according to Brown we need approximately 33% more pharmacists. Thats pretty ridiculous to believe that the revenue base necessary to support these jobs will miraculously materialize with provider status. Perhaps he meant that we will need 100,000 new pharmacists to support the APhA payrolls...

 

[FlavyFlav]

Well, as long as it includes a 50% pay rate cut, I'm sure that will work out swimmingly!

 

[Momus]

Why not? Those dean's only see green in their eyes. I'd do the same chit if I were him.

 

[SmallCapPharma]

That $50k/yr federal financial aid won't last forever, milk those suckers dry!!!


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[Reirrac]

Hey, he's got a job to do as an associate dean; promote their school and recruit more paying customers students!

 

[confettiflyer]

How stupid is this guy? I have a bridge to sell him...


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[owlegrad]

How stupid is this guy? I have a bridge to sell him...


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Stupid like a fox!

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Who was the guy from that new school who I berated on the pre-pharmacy board like 4-5 years ago so bad he quit posting? Was it this guy?

 

[Prepharm1214]

Who was the guy from that new school who I berated on the pre-pharmacy board like 4-5 years ago so bad he quit posting? Was it this guy?

The Belmont dean I believe

 

[Pharmd = Phake Doctor]

How stupid is this guy? I have a bridge to sell him...

Nah, he's the dude selling the bridge...

With yearly tuition at 70K (210K total for the 3 year program), Chapman is creating the future of pharmacy. #emergingroles = #indenturedservitude

It took forever to find the tuition rate for the COP because there are no direct links from the main pharmacy school page to the university's tuition page. HA!

But while I was doing the search I came across this gem:

Chapman University College of Pharmacy Blog

Gotta love the headlines:
Demand for Pharmacists Rising Across the Nation

Do We Need More Pharmacy Schools?

CUSP’s Dr. Nancy Alvarez voted President Elect of the American Pharmacists Association!
(Yes, Chapman is now home to two presidents of that useless, powerless organization known as the APhA)

But the best had to be the following:
Flipping Pharmacy Education

The Flip It team (Focus on your Learners by Involving them in the Process) of Dr. Rebecca Kammer and Dr. Barbi Honeycutt have been working closely with faculty at Chapman University’s School of Pharmacy (CUSP) to develop a comprehensive flipped curriculum for incoming students this fall. The curriculum is intentionally designed to strategically integrate an active learning andragogy to create learning-centered environments.

Dr. Kammer and Dr. Honeycutt will be presenting a session entitled: Flipping Pharmacy Education: Supporting Faculty Through the Transition to a Learning-Centered Environment at the annual meeting of the American Association of Colleges of Pharmacy (AACP) in July in Washington, DC.

Yeah, so props to anybody who can figure out what the hell they're trying to do with this Flipping Learning BS™.

 

[PharmtoCS]

Yeah, so props to anybody who can figure out what the hell they're trying to do with this Flipping Learning BS™.

Flipping pharmacy education...if they mean that they're flipping PharmDs to students the same way people flip houses and leaving their graduates with the bags of $200k+ loans, then it makes perfect sense.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Flipping pharmacy education...if they mean that they're flipping PharmDs to students the same way people flip houses and leaving their graduates with the bags of $200k+ loans, then it makes perfect sense.

And soon... flipping students PharmDs the same way some people flip hamburgers at BK, or Pancakes at IHOP?

 

[gwarm01]

Those darn roles will emerge any day now.

Hey, at least pharmacy schools are still a growth market. We will need plenty of professors in the future.

 

[BMBiology]

How does this guy get away with this crap? He is throwing his title around as APhA president to add credibility to his scam.


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[Judgment Dragon]

Why do pre-pharmacy students believe him? Do these pre-pharmacy students in question simply not do their own research or what?

 

[gwarm01]

Why do pre-pharmacy students believe him? Do these pre-pharmacy students in question simply not do their own research or what?

It's hard to blame them. Most are really young still, and when an 18 year old tells their parents they are interested in pharmacy school all they will hear is anecdotes about how pharmacists make so much money and the job is very easy. Even when you go to the internet you are hit with the Manpower project and the old BLS results that show a big shortage is coming. Hell, then you have clowns like this guy perpetuating the myth. These kids are doing to see "APhA president" and "Dean of College of Pharmacy" and think he is credible. Even if they talk to pharmacists they might know personally, it's not uncommon to get a glowing review of the career. I know pharmacists that have only ever worked in one position since graduating. In their minds, the job market is great. They still have the reference from when they got their job. They aren't fighting to get a 30 hour "full-time" float gig along with all of the other record number of new graduates.

I feel sorry for them because pre-pharm students often don't get a more nuanced view of the situation until they are a little older, a little wiser, and often already enrolled in a pharmacy program. At that point most will just hope for the best. With any luck they will get an internship, which in actuality will differentiate you more than any leadership roles in student organizations. When I got my first job, the director was very interested in my internship. The fact that I spent three years working in a hospital during school gave me a huge leg up. He didn't ask me one damn thing about my two elected officer positions.

 

[Gombrich12]

Why do pre-pharmacy students believe him? Do these pre-pharmacy students in question simply not do their own research or what?

A lot less pre pharm students are listening to people like Lawrence Brown. The application numbers have been dropping heavily the past few years. The general opinion of pharmacy seems to be quite low across the internet from what I can gather. Whenever someone asks about pharmacy there is always someone replying back have you thought about a PA/NP program.

 

[fewaopi]

It's hard to blame them. Most are really young still, and when an 18 year old tells their parents they are interested in pharmacy school all they will hear is anecdotes about how pharmacists make so much money and the job is very easy. Even when you go to the internet you are hit with the Manpower project and the old BLS results that show a big shortage is coming. Hell, then you have clowns like this guy perpetuating the myth. These kids are doing to see "APhA president" and "Dean of College of Pharmacy" and think he is credible. Even if they talk to pharmacists they might know personally, it's not uncommon to get a glowing review of the career. I know pharmacists that have only ever worked in one position since graduating. In their minds, the job market is great. They still have the reference from when they got their job. They aren't fighting to get a 30 hour "full-time" float gig along with all of the other record number of new graduates.

I feel sorry for them because pre-pharm students often don't get a more nuanced view of the situation until they are a little older, a little wiser, and often already enrolled in a pharmacy program. At that point most will just hope for the best. With any luck they will get an internship, which in actuality will differentiate you more than any leadership roles in student organizations. When I got my first job, the director was very interested in my internship. The fact that I spent three years working in a hospital during school gave me a huge leg up. He didn't ask me one damn thing about my two elected officer positions.

Also to add, it's less spoken on the prepharmer forum but many students, kids tell their parents they're picking a field sometimes to just make the parents worry less and make them happy and not worry (in the parents' mind, how many parents actually know the field?) it's not always their choice. I remember a couple prepharm threads like that. So it's not like the choice is completely theirs.

A lot less pre pharm students are listening to people like Lawrence Brown. The application numbers have been dropping heavily the past few years. The general opinion of pharmacy seems to be quite low across the internet from what I can gather. Whenever someone asks about pharmacy there is always someone replying back have you thought about a PA/NP program.

Definitely have seen this. I know people not applying to pharmacy simply cause they're aware of the bleak future coming and already here in some cases. Academia is also aware of this, and it's been discussed in academia meetings. They know the issue, they're aware of it. Some will not tell the students but there will be students challenging or asking faculty about their opinions. Some kids can actually think for themselves too. A few schools hint at the saturation or imply it near graduation. If academia accepts pharmacy job saturation, and the kids can't...then nothing will help them.

 

[torontopharm]

Soon we'll have pharmacists who'll deliver drugs to your house..like pizza pizza drivers.

 

[torontopharm]

Why do pre-pharmacy students believe him? Do these pre-pharmacy students in question simply not do their own research or what?

$$$.
Pharmacists typically have higher starting salaries than OD/PT/OT/many PA and NP/Vets and even Podiatrists.
Saturation will never stop until salaries are down to 70k.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Those darn roles will emerge any day now.

Hey, at least pharmacy schools are still a growth market. We will need plenty of professors in the future.

What is actually happening with the provider status legislative efforts? Is there some sort of pending federal bill that will give pharmacists provider status that is expected to be passed within the next year or two?

 

[gwarm01]

What is actually happening with the provider status legislative efforts? Is there some sort of pending federal bill that will give pharmacists provider status that is expected to be passed within the next year or two?

I'm far from an expert but the current bill has been pending for years and grants provider status in medically underserved areas. It's not going to flip a switch and suddenly create thousands of jobs.

 

[FarmD711]

What is actually happening with the provider status legislative efforts? Is there some sort of pending federal bill that will give pharmacists provider status that is expected to be passed within the next year or two?

No


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[PAtoPharm]

I'm far from an expert but the current bill has been pending for years and grants provider status in medically underserved areas. It's not going to flip a switch and suddenly create thousands of jobs.

So even if the bill passes at some point, it will only grant provider status to pharmacists working in underserved areas? What about the pharmacists who don't work in underserved areas?

.... So in other words, even if the APhA's provider status goals are achieved, the vast majority of pharmacists will not be benefited? And in order to grant those pharmacists provider status as well, they'd have to start all over with trying to push yet another bill through the government?

 

[BMBiology]

So even if the bill passes at some point, it will only grant provider status to pharmacists working in underserved areas? What about the pharmacists who don't work in underserved areas?

.... So in other words, even if the APhA's provider status goals are achieved, the vast majority of pharmacists will not be benefited? And in order to grant those pharmacists provider status as well, they'd have to start all over with trying to push yet another bill through the government?

Everybody here wants provider status for pharmacists but we have been hearing the same thing for the last 30 years or so. Even if the bill does pass, it does not mean private insurance companies will pay for it. It is still a long shot so for him to tout the need for 100,000 pharmacists is just unrealistic. It is outrageous that the APhA president would make such a claim in an attempt to recruit students.

Chapman is probably one of the better new pharmacy schools but it got into the game a little too late. California especially Southern California is saturated with pharmacy schools. Including Chapman, there are now 7 pharmacy schools in Southern California with another one opening up soon. There are also 5 more pharmacy schools in Central/Northern California. That is a total of 12 pharmacy schools! 8 of these pharmacy schools opened in the last 12 years or so. This is why he is stepping up his game. He needs to recruit or Chapman will not have the money to keep its lights on.


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[confettiflyer]

Soon we'll have pharmacists who'll deliver drugs to your house..like pizza pizza drivers.

Done.

https://scriptdash.com/careers

Hahaha, okay not really, but if anyone's interested...


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[gwarm01]

Let's say provider status is passed. What does that even mean? What will even be billing for?

 

[anonmember]

Let's say provider status is passed. What does that even mean? What will even be billing for?

Well, theoretically we could bill for all the times we do the grunt work of, for example, managing a patient's diabetes because their primary care doctor is to incompetent to handle it or refer them to an endocrinologist, so we play phone tag until we get someone to tell us the lab results we need and convince the doctor to write the right prescriptions, essentially doing their job for them while they bill for all the office visits.

Realistically I don't see that happening, but I think that type of thing is what APhA is alluding to when they keep talking about the rosy future of pharmacist-providers.

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

Nah, he's the dude selling the bridge...

With yearly tuition at 70K (210K total for the 3 year program), Chapman is creating the future of pharmacy. #emergingroles = #indenturedservitude

That tuition is stupid crazy high.
How can a pharm school justify such a high tuition when most medical schools are significantly less, even in CA

 

[RPh Who]

...so we play phone tag until we get someone to tell us the lab results we need and convince the doctor to write the right prescriptions, essentially doing their job for them while they bill for all the office visits.

If this is the glorious vision of provider status, thanks but no thanks.

 

[Topcat15]

Let's say provider status is passed. What does that even mean? What will even be billing for?

So I actually attended an event where Lawrence Brown spoke about what he envisions as the future of pharmacy (I was required to go as part of my job). His idea is that physicians will make initial diagnoses, and then the patients will have their chronic disease states completely managed by pharmacists (ordering labs, writing scripts, etc), similar to how the VA currently does things with hypertension, diabetes, etc. So I guess you'd need provider status to be able to bill for all those activities.

 

[BMBiology]

^ NPs are doing those things at the VA. Maybe a pharmacist here and there but NPs were mainly the ones when I was there.


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[netmag]

It would only be good for Pharmacists if their work could be billed for. Then it could possibly add additional value across the board (Hospital, independents, also maybe even retail would add additional Pharmacists if they could get a steady revenue stream for it). Of course, MDs would probably be worried about changing or moving anything that could affect their stream of money because they're probably just fine with the way things are now. It depends on whether everyone thinks that it's worth it to include Pharmacists for this AND are serious enough about it to be willing to continue paying for it without looking upon it as a cheaper alternative (i.e. doing it to increase access to care, but without also assuming that Pharmacists will do it for less or no reimbursement). If that's the idea, then I'm surprised they got this far with such a bill. I'd figure MDs would be loudly opposed to any such change. I can see how they'd have to stipulate "underserved areas" to get it started.

 

[Pharmd = Phake Doctor]

That tuition is stupid crazy high.
How can a pharm school justify such a high tuition when most medical schools are significantly less, even in CA

Pharmacy is a cash cow for universities. Pharmacy has the same federal loan limits as medical school (222K total loan limit). But it is a lot cheaper to run a pharmacy school than a medical school. Look at all those pharmacy schools that have popped up in the last 15 years. The majority of these schools are at private christian colleges with very weak science programs.

I go to a public university in a state hijacked by the Tea Party. The state legislature has trimmed the college budget to a minimum, yet our tuition is 20K a year (80-90K total). So I don't understand how a private school could justify charging 210K total in just tuition. The lack of jobs for pharmacists (especially the blue coasts) has been known for years. The quality of students applying to pharmacy schools has dropped significantly (I'm talking people who could only get C's in pre-requisite courses only after multiple tries). It won't be long when pharmacy schools are going to be fighting law schools for the same pool of applicants (human trash).

And every godd*mn thread on the pre-pharmacy forum has the same kind of individual on it:

• Low self-esteem
• Sub-par GPA
• Multiple F's in university/community college-level courses
• Failed these courses because of family problems/personal issues or any kind of lame excuse they can come up with
• Ergo, they have anxiety problems (why in the hell are you going into pharmacy/healthcare if you have anxiety?)
• Has a "passion™" for pharmacy, yet has never worked in one in their entire life
• Believes they can stay and work in California or the Northeast after graduation
• Lack social skills needed to succeed in life
• Are now overjoyed because they got into pharmacy school, a competitive program to get into

You could tell these kids that going to pharmacy school for 200-300K is absurd. But they will fight you because the only thing that offsets their low self-esteem, sub-par GPA, and anxiety issues is the fact that they were allowed to attend pharmacy school. They don't understand or want to understand that pharmacy is not a cushy, secure, or easy career.

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

Pharmacy is a cash cow for universities. Pharmacy has the same federal loan limits as medical school (222K total loan limit). But it is a lot cheaper to run a pharmacy school than a medical school. Look at all those pharmacy schools that have popped up in the last 15 years. The majority of these schools are at private christian colleges with very weak science programs.

I go to a public university in a state hijacked by the Tea Party. The state legislature has trimmed the college budget to a minimum, yet our tuition is 20K a year (80-90K total). So I don't understand how a private school could justify charging 210K total in just tuition. The lack of jobs for pharmacists (especially the blue coasts) has been known for years. The quality of students applying to pharmacy schools has dropped significantly (I'm talking people who could only get C's in pre-requisite courses only after multiple tries). It won't be long when pharmacy schools are going to be fighting law schools for the same pool of applicants (human trash).

And every godd*mn thread on the pre-pharmacy forum has the same kind of individual on it:

• Low self-esteem
• Sub-par GPA
• Multiple F's in university/community college-level courses
• Failed these courses because of family problems/personal issues or any kind of lame excuse they can come up with
• Ergo, they have anxiety problems (why in the hell are you going into pharmacy/healthcare if you have anxiety?)
• Has a "passion™" for pharmacy, yet has never worked in one in their entire life
• Believes they can stay and work in California or the Northeast after graduation
• Lack social skills needed to succeed in life
• Are now overjoyed because they got into pharmacy school, a competitive program to get into

You could tell these kids that going to pharmacy school for 200-300K is absurd. But they will fight you because the only thing that offsets their low self-esteem, sub-par GPA, and anxiety issues is the fact that they were allowed to attend pharmacy school. They don't understand or want to understand that pharmacy is not a cushy, secure, or easy career.

Does it make a difference if one goes to a more competitive or old pharmacy school than a newer one? In the med forums most say that outside of a couple of top schools it really Deirdre make a difference because board scores are most important. Is that how pharmacy works too?

 

[Pharmd = Phake Doctor]

Does it make a difference if one goes to a more competitive or old pharmacy school than a newer one? In the med forums most say that outside of a couple of top schools it really Deirdre make a difference because board scores are most important. Is that how pharmacy works too?

Not necessarily.

Older schools, which are usually state schools, charge considerably less than the newer, private institutions. However, there are exceptions. USC is one of the oldest pharmacy schools out there but charges upwards of 200K in tuition for a four year program.

If anyone tells you there are top schools of pharmacy, they're fools. There's a dichotomy of good, affordable schools and expensive, diploma mills. These diploma mills have only one purpose: suck loan money from gullible students. Look at the threads on Chapman and California Northstate in these forums. Look at the growth of pharmacy schools across this country. Tennessee, which is not a populous state (compared to the coastal states) went from ONE school to SIX schools in a seven year period in the years 2005-2012.

And, there are no quality controls when it comes to pharmacy education. Schools have been accepting students who are scoring in the 50th, 40th, and even 30th percentile on the admissions exams. They've lowered their admission standards to allow students with 2.5 GPAs to get in. Furthermore, the NAPLEX is a minimum competency test that is not very difficult. People with substandard grades in pharmacy school are passing this exam and calling themselves 'pharmacist'.

The pharmacy schools have no STEP-style exams that differentiate the top students from the bottom. So, my advice is to go to a cheap public university because no matter where you graduate, you are just a 'pharmacist'.

PS.
If you want to do these so-called "pharmacy residencies", then you have to do well in pharmacy school. However, unlike medical residencies, these pharmacy residencies are unnecessary to becoming a practicing pharmacist. People are only going into these 'residencies' because they couldn't get a job in retail or hospital right out of school because of saturation.

 

[confettiflyer]

PS.
If you want to do these so-called "pharmacy residencies", then you have to do well in pharmacy school. However, unlike medical residencies, these pharmacy residencies are unnecessary to becoming a practicing pharmacist. People are only going into these 'residencies' because they couldn't get a job in retail or hospital right out of school because of saturation.

Then by definition, it is a market necessity to do residency (for the cushy hospital job). I'm not arguing with you on the training aspect (we can and do train stellar residency-less new grads in certain cases), but if the market demands it, it is a de facto requirement (vs a de jure requirement for medicine).

I can self-study law in California and take the baby bar and bar exam and become a licensed attorney, but no big firm would ever hire me. Same case here with residencies.


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[ChapmanPharmacy]

That tuition is stupid crazy high.
How can a pharm school justify such a high tuition when most medical schools are significantly less, even in CA

Not to pick your point apart, but our tuition is not $210,000. The last year of the program is only 2 semesters, so the last year is only about 47k because we only charge for the 2 semesters not for 3. The total cost of our program ($186k) is the same as the other private pharmacy schools in California.

 

[Digsbe]

I live in a city saturated with pharmacy schools. It's extremely difficult to find a job, as a new grad I'm still searching. We don't need 100,000 more pharmacists, I wonder what the tipping point will be before pharmacists start representing themselves instead of allowing schools and chains to do it for them (who don't hold their best interest at heart)

 

[BMBiology]

Not to pick your point apart, but our tuition is not $210,000. The last year of the program is only 2 semesters, so the last year is only about 47k because we only charge for the 2 semesters not for 3. The total cost of our program ($186k) is the same as the other private pharmacy schools in California.

Remember kids $186 k is just tuition. If you add everything else include living cost and interest, you will graduate with $250-300 k.

Do you still believe we will need an additional 100,000 pharmacists?


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[Carol is Alpha]

Remember kids $186 k is just tuition. If you add everything else include living cost and interest, you will graduate with $250-300 k.

Do you still believe we will need an additional 100,000 pharmacists?


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Not if this trend continues.

http://www.businessinsider.com/walmart-is-developing-a-drone-2016-6

 

[rxdawg21]

So lets theoretically say you only borrow 186k..at 6.8% interest rats (not sure what current rates are but probably with 1% of this) you are looking at $12648 in interest alone your first year with this loan balance. This doesn't include the interest already accruing while in school which I would assume would be >$12648 so easily 200k by time you graduate....what a joke...embarrassing a pharmacy school staff/administration can justify that cost.

 

[Pharmd2012yay]

Not to pick your point apart, but our tuition is not $210,000. The last year of the program is only 2 semesters, so the last year is only about 47k because we only charge for the 2 semesters not for 3. The total cost of our program ($186k) is the same as the other private pharmacy schools in California.

Soo basically the rich (like yourself get richer). The students get poorer and eventually schools shut down (laying off professors)...but the administration by then has made out like a bandit...

...great scheme!

 

[Dalteparin]

I live in a city saturated with pharmacy schools. It's extremely difficult to find a job, as a new grad I'm still searching. We don't need 100,000 more pharmacists, I wonder what the tipping point will be before pharmacists start representing themselves instead of allowing schools and chains to do it for them (who don't hold their best interest at heart)

@ChapmanPharmacy are you listening? This is what new schools like yours have brought upon our profession. When was the last time you looked for a pharmacist job? Do you really think we need 100,000 more pharmacists when new grads are unemployed and underemployed?

 

[BMBiology]

Soo basically the rich (like yourself get richer). The students get poorer and eventually schools shut down (laying off professors)...but the administration by then has made out like a bandit...

...great scheme!

That is the whole problem. The whole Chapman faculty don't make anything. Yeah, you heard me! They don't make any money from their "clinical services". They are just volunteers. They can't bill for their services. Their livelihood depends solely students' tuition . Without students' tuition, they can't even keep the lights on. But yet, they are telling you what pharmacists do? The future of our profession? Give me a break. Get out there and work as a pharmacist like the rest of us.


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[ChapmanPharmacy]

Nah, he's the dude selling the bridge...
View attachment 204473
With yearly tuition at 70K (210K total for the 3 year program), Chapman is creating the future of pharmacy. #emergingroles = #indenturedservitude

It took forever to find the tuition rate for the COP because there are no direct links from the main pharmacy school page to the university's tuition page. HA!

But while I was doing the search I came across this gem:

Chapman University College of Pharmacy Blog

Gotta love the headlines:
Demand for Pharmacists Rising Across the Nation

Do We Need More Pharmacy Schools?

CUSP’s Dr. Nancy Alvarez voted President Elect of the American Pharmacists Association!
(Yes, Chapman is now home to two presidents of that useless, powerless organization known as the APhA)

But the best had to be the following:
Flipping Pharmacy Education


Yeah, so props to anybody who can figure out what the hell they're trying to do with this Flipping Learning BS™.

As I mentioned earlier, our tuition is less than $190, which is less than USC and in line with the other private schools in California.

As for our tuition rates, I'm not sure why you found it so hard to find. All you have to do is a Google search on Chapman Pharmacy tuition, and it comes right up. We have no reason to hide our tuition since it is the same as other private pharmacy schools in CA, plus we don't have any fees like technology fee or lab fee. And students get a new iPad, a new MacBook, and all of there textbooks are made available for no extra charge. So we are an even better bargain than the other schools that charge the same tuition.

As for APhA, APhA is the organization that got pharmacists the rights to be able to immunize, it is also the organization that got MTM included as a benefit of Medicare Part D, and it pharmacists specific language included in the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare). And although we are in the third year of trying to get Provider Status legislation passed, it is a huge piece of legislation that has substantial costs associated, so no one expected it to pass quickly. But we do have a majority of the House and Senate who are co-sponsors.

And for anyone complaining about the lack of effectiveness of APhA, as yourself what have you done to help the effort? Have you written a letter of support to your legislators? Have you donated to the APhA PAC so they have sufficient money to donate to candidates? Everyone complains about how much influence the lobbyist have in Congress, but they do nothing to help the pharmacy associations have more influence.

 

[ChapmanPharmacy]

That is the whole problem. The whole Chapman faculty don't make anything. Yeah, you heard me! They don't make any money from their "clinical services". They are just volunteers. They can't bill for their services. Their livelihood depends solely students' tuition . Without students' tuition, they can't even keep the lights on. But yet, they are telling you what pharmacists do? The future of our profession? Give me a break. Get out there and work as a pharmacist like the rest of us.


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Hey BMBiology, I'm glad you brought up these points, so that I can provide some information.

Pharmacy School clinical pharmacist work as pharmacists 2 or 3 days a week. The other days they are performing the other missions of a professor (service, teaching and research). And they are not volunteers. A typical academic clinical pharmacist has half of their salary paid for by the institution and the other half paid for by the school. The reason the institution only pays half, is because they only work can only work in the institution 2 or 3 days a week. And during the days they are at the institution, they also serve as preceptors for the school's pharmacy students. Lastly, most of the advancements in clinical pharmacy came from academic health center institutions that were largely staffed by academic clinical pharmacists.

And as for the lack of billing for their clinical services, that is an issue with almost all clinical pharmacists in the institution or community pharmacy area (although it is a little better in community pharmacies due to Medicare Part D MTM and immunizations services which can be billed for). So the academic clinical pharmacist work as clinical pharmacists in the institutions, just like non-academic clinical pharmacists, and they don't bill for their services but instead get a salary, just like most non-academic clinical pharmacists. But I can guarantee you that as soon as clinical pharmacists are able to bill for their services, they will. But don't forget that if the clinical pharmacist is employed by an institution, it is the institution that will get the money, not the pharmacist, since the institution will fell that the pharmacist is already being compensated with a salary. The only way that a pharmacy school could make money from their clinical pharmacists is if the School opened and ran it's own clinic or community pharmacy. There are some examples like that in the US. But schools have to be careful, because if they create too big of an operation, the pharmacists in the area will get made because the school is competing with them and taking away their business.

As for pharmacy student tuition paying for everything, I can say that is mostly true for private schools, but not entirely true. Additional money for salaries comes from research grants, contracts, and from the parent University. But that is true for almost all schools, not just pharmacy schools. Academic institutions are a profit generating organization. In fact, the vast majority if college and universities are non-profit organizations, so they are not allowed to make large sums of money.

 

[ChapmanPharmacy]

@ChapmanPharmacy are you listening? This is what new schools like yours have brought upon our profession. When was the last time you looked for a pharmacist job? Do you really think we need 100,000 more pharmacists when new grads are unemployed and underemployed?

Yes I am listening, and I don't disagree that there are some areas of the country where it is tough to find a job. But there are a lot of other areas where it isn't as tough to find a job.

Also, don't you think it is strange that everyone likes to blame the new schools for the shortage of pharmacists jobs, when in fact the largest increase in pharmacists came from older schools increasing their class sizes back in the 1990's and 2000's. You had so many schools going from 100 to 175 or so, and you had so many schools opening up new campuses which greatly increased the number of pharmacists they produces. Also, what you guys don't know is that there are a lot of schools out there that are no longer able to fill their classes, so the number of new graduates will be going down even with all the new schools.

And as I have said before, about 90% of Chapman students are from California and would have ended up going to another pharmacy school anyway. California used to export students to other states to go to pharmacy school, and then come back to California to get licensed. But now we are able to educate them in California, so they don't have to go out of state.

And as for the 100,000 additional pharmacists, yes I think in 5 to 10 years we will need that many and more. Every month, more and more medical groups and ACO's are hiring pharmacists to provide medication management services. And as more and more of them see the value of having a pharmacist on board, this will encourage even more of them to higher pharmacists.

Plus more and more pharmacists are opening up their own Chronic Care Management (CCM) services companies. I just talked to a pharmacist in Detroit who graduated just 4 years ago. He worked in Long Term Care for a few years to build up his skills and then opened his own company. This is because Medicare pays for CCM services. He has contracts with several small medical groups in the area, and is working on getting his first large medical group. He has 8 pharmacists that he employs, and plans on hiring another 20 by the end of this year. He just opened his business in January.

I think as the shortage continues, more and more pharmacist will decide to stop waiting for someone to give them a job, and will start their own business. Pharmacy graduates will need to be a lot more entrepreneurial than they have been in the recent past. But don't forget, the pharmacy profession was founded on pharmacist business owners. It was only in the 1980's or so that independent pharmacy ownership really began to decline. Being a business owner is in the life blood of the history of pharmacists.

 

[BMBiology]

I am not talking about the pharmacists who work in the real world and also teach part time.

I am talking about the professors like yourself who do not work in the real world...the ones who have their own little clinic, the ones who round with the medical team. They are not being compensated for the "work" they are doing. They are just volunteers like you had stated:

As for the position of Associate Dean of Student Affairs, it does not include work as a practicing pharmacist. The practicing pharmacists in academia are the residency trained clinical pharmacists.

As for the clinical pharmacists, two of them are in the team-based care roles that the Dean and I said are coming soon. We don't get income from the work that they do. That's not how academia works. The value the school gets is being able to send our students to those sites for IPPE and APPE rotations and the faculty being able to bring real world experience into the classroom.

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