APMLE Part 1 - Board Vitals

[J29622]

For those of you who've used Board Vitals, what did you think of the questions? Are they reasonably representative of the real exam? Are they generally, easier, harder or similar in difficulty?

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[Homo sapien]

I used them and for my year they were harder and not representative at all. They went super detailed at some points when my board questions were anything but. I think board vitals is best to figure out what you know, not to teach you stuff or get you ready for a test

 

[rayovac]

I used them and for my year they were harder and not representative at all. They went super detailed at some points when my board questions were anything but. I think board vitals is best to figure out what you know, not to teach you stuff or get you ready for a test

^ this. Some of the board vitals question prompts are paragraphs long. You wont get question stems this long on part 1. Good luck

 

[J29622]

Thanks for your responses. If they're harder than the real thing, then that's comforting. I don't know what to expect so it's all quite anxiety provoking.

 

[Robert De Niro]

Personally, first aid book (really only the micro section bc that’s where I felt the weakest), BLS flash cards, and class notes. That’s all I used and left the exam confident I passed.

 

[TimmyTurner]

I believe the concept of those who created board vitals questions were that if you can comfortably answer questions at their level of difficulty, you'll be well prepared for boards. Sound logic in theory, but poorly executed. They overshot the mark by a country mile. Board vitals questions are so in depth/ mostly secondary or tertiary level questions that they are rendered useless in both gauging your knowledge base/preparing for the exam.

Yet to take boards, but comparing practice questions, professors notes/advice, upperclassmen anecdotes to board vitals- they're simply not representative of board questions. Spare a handful of questions on exam day, you'll be answering the most surfactory/overriding fact on whatever the topic/subject is.

i.e- a pt presents to the ER with explosive, watery & bloody diarrhea. The patient's history reveals that he/she is hypersensitive to penicillin based agents, and was recently prescribed an antibiotic alternative to treat a localized skin/soft tissue infection. What antibiotic was most likely prescribed to induce presenting symptoms (or alternatively- what bacterial agent is causing these symptoms?)

 

[CATSandKILOS]

I thought boards vitals question for the 2017 exam were VERY similar. I did all of the pharm, micro, lea and physiology. I recommend 100%.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

Our seniors def recommend them.
If you're scoring above 75%, you'd be fine on the real deal.

 

[J29622]

Thanks for the input. I've heard that 50-55% is the usual cutoff for passing on the APMLE. I've been scoring above that on BoardVitals and practice exams, but is that number usually reasonable in your experiences?

 

[Cpt.Charcot]

I felt BoardVitals were very similar to the real questions, some were identical to those on boards.
Regardless, BoardVitals provides the opportunity for you to recall information. I felt that it was far more valuable than than just passively studying by reading material over and over. I typically used BV at the end of the day to make sure I was retaining info from the material I studied.

The key is making sure to read the answer explanations for every question regardless of how you performed on that question.

 

[TimmyTurner]

Thanks for the input. I've heard that 50-55% is the usual cutoff for passing on the APMLE. I've been scoring above that on BoardVitals and practice exams, but is that number usually reasonable in your experiences?

The release from APMLE states that passing cutoff can range anywhere from 55%-75%. Understanding how they arrive at that number and why requires a Masters degree in the dark arts, but essentially they slide the scale so that anywhere between 8-20% of 1st time test takers fail. (the higher end of that scale may be a tad high).
Kinda sucks, especially since you could simply get a tough draw of questions, or disproportionate subject material (heavy on histo/neuro).
The upside is that there is, generally speaking, no material consequence to failing the 1st time, and the 2nd time you just have to meet a certain score threshold, which I believe is 50%-ish.

 

[J29622]

The release from APMLE states that passing cutoff can range anywhere from 55%-75%. Understanding how they arrive at that number and why requires a Masters degree in the dark arts, but essentially they slide the scale so that anywhere between 8-20% of 1st time test takers fail. (the higher end of that scale may be a tad high).
Kinda sucks, especially since you could simply get a tough draw of questions, or disproportionate subject material (heavy on histo/neuro).
The upside is that there is, generally speaking, no material consequence to failing the 1st time, and the 2nd time you just have to meet a certain score threshold, which I believe is 50%-ish.

Do they actually set a fail quota? I remember reading somewhere that they don't actually intentionally fail people, but the cutoff is set and theoretically 100% of people could pass.

 

[GypsyHummus]

How many times are you allowed to take each board?

 

[J29622]

How many times are you allowed to take each board?

Depends on the school. APMLE doesn't set a limit, but our school lets you attempt 3 times. After that, you're out.

 

[GypsyHummus]

That would stink to sink 2 years and 100k just to be dismissed. Can you still graduate with a DPM and just not practice without passing boards?

I wonder if there are any schools that allow you to take them unlimited times.

Depends on the school. APMLE doesn't set a limit, but our school lets you attempt 3 times. After that, you're out.

 

[TimmyTurner]

Do they actually set a fail quota? I remember reading somewhere that they don't actually intentionally fail people, but the cutoff is set but theoretically 100% of people could pass.

Like I said, you need a Masters in the dark arts in order to understand their scoring / scaling process. Whether they intend to or not, a certain percentage fail every year on the 1st time, approx. 8%-20% of students nationally. The scoring on the 2nd attempt for those who failed 1st time around is much more forgiving , as I understand it.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Same reason if someone with an MD/DO didn’t pass boards. They sunk all this time and money in and now have nothing except 100k in debt to show for it.

I agree that Podiatric Medicine clinical stuff should only be done by someone who has passed everything on the school level (Boards part 1-3, I don’t know why there is a separate Pod Med board) and surgery by someone who has passed the surgical boards, but I think you should still be able to receive the professional degree (MD, DDS, DO, etc) and just not be able to practice. This would at least allow people something to do, like work in pharmaceuticals sales or teach undergrad microbio or something. How else are people sopposed to be able to pay back their student loans unless they had a solid undergrad degree to fall back on like engineering, accounting, nursing, etc?

Though I’m interested to know what it’s like in the DDS and OD world, I know they have their own boards too

Why?
Poor students shouldn't be trusted with a scalpel and surgery should only be done by board certified podiatrists. You said so yourself.
Seems like the schools got it exactly right.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

Same reason if someone with an MD/DO didn’t pass boards. They sunk all this time and money in and now have nothing except 100k in debt to show for it.

I agree that Podiatric Medicine clinical stuff should only be done by someone who has passed everything on the school level (Boards part 1-3, I don’t know why there is a separate Pod Med board) and surgery by someone who has passed the surgical boards, but I think you should still be able to receive the professional degree (MD, DDS, DO, etc) and just not be able to practice. This would at least allow people something to do, like work in pharmaceuticals sales or teach undergrad microbio or something. How else are people sopposed to be able to pay back their student loans unless they had a solid undergrad degree to fall back on like engineering, accounting, nursing, etc?

Though I’m interested to know what it’s like in the DDS and OD world, I know they have their own boards too

I think those people still get the degree though, but it pretty much useless.
This degree or any other professional degree is not made for people to fall back on something else if they cannot pass the boards.
If a student makes it out of year 2 then they are expected to pass Part 1, and part 2 and so on.
If someone, for whatever, reason cannot pass the boards within the allocated time from their program then it's on them.

 

[J29622]

AFAIAK, most MD and DO schools will kick you out if you fail boards too many times too. I'm stressed out about this exam, but I'd hypocritical if I expected to be allowed to graduate without passing boards given I certainly wouldn't wan't a doctor who couldn't pass boards to treat me.

 

[GypsyHummus]

An MD is still valuable, even without a residency. Not sure about DO, DDS, DPM, etc.

After reading some handbooks, it looks like you get dismissed.

I think those people still get the degree though, but it pretty much useless.
This degree or any other professional degree is not made for people to fall back on something else if they cannot pass the boards.
If a student makes it out of year 2 then they are expected to pass Part 1, and part 2 and so on.
If someone, for whatever, reason cannot pass the boards within the allocated time from their program then it's on them.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I dont think a DDS can practice without passing boards, not sure what they could do or if it is more valuable than a DPM w/out residency. Same with an OD and DO.

When a premed asks about options, I usually tell them to see if Podiatry would be a good fit for them. Shadowing and doing research.

Dentistry seems like the path of least resistance with the highest ROI. Its only 4 years and they can make PCP money.

I think that DPM is a good path if someone cant get into MD/DO, and it gives you a better chance (statistically) of being a doctor/physician in the united states than going to a Caribbean school. Lot of good people out there that couldnt break a 500 MCAT and still would be good docs, save a lot of limbs and even lives.

An MD/DO/DDS without residency is more valuable than a DPM without residency. This isn't news. Accept it and work your butt off to not be in that position.
You're looking for the path of least resistance with the highest ROI. I get it. There's a lot of $$$ on the line. Unfortunately every profession comes with their own baggage you have to make peace with or at least be aware of before diving into it. Perhaps you should mention your concerns about Podiatry every time you recommend it to a pre-med, so they get the full picture.

 

[J29622]

I dont think a DDS can practice without passing boards, not sure what they could do or if it is more valuable than a DPM w/out residency. Same with an OD and DO.

When a premed asks about options, I usually tell them to see if Podiatry would be a good fit for them. Shadowing and doing research.

Dentistry seems like the path of least resistance with the highest ROI. Its only 4 years and they can make PCP money.

I think that DPM is a good path if someone cant get into MD/DO, and it gives you a better chance (statistically) of being a doctor/physician in the united states than going to a Caribbean school. Lot of good people out there that couldnt break a 500 MCAT and still would be good docs, save a lot of limbs and even lives.

The implication that podiatry is just for MD/DO rejects is something I can't get behind, especially as someone who had the stats to get into medical schools. It's actually borderline offensive in that a lot of the people I know personally in my school are definitely smart enough to get through any medical program. Advantages are guaranteed surgical training, a specialty that you're locked into from the beginning and one that averages an income above primary care while offering a better lifestyle (not saying DPMs don't work hard, but primary care docs are worked to the bone).

While MD/DO offers superior flexibility and there's something for everyone, it's not so simple as just deciding, "I want to do xxx" and getting that residency. There's a definite aura of unpredictability, and knowing a few people who went through that gauntlet, it isn't all sunshine and rainbows. I know one guy personally who really had his heart set on surgery, and after a subpar Step 1 score is essentially locked into primary care and will probably never get to hold a scalpel in practice - that's the risk that everyone has to accept. In all honesty, if podiatry were an MD/DO specialty, it would be quite competitive. It's a good mix of what a lot of people look for in a specialty.

Yes, some people who go into podiatry do it because they couldn't get into an MD/DO school. A lot of the people I know, especially most of the ones still here after 2 years, did it for other reasons.

 

[bobtheweazel]

Thanks for the input. I've heard that 50-55% is the usual cutoff for passing on the APMLE. I've been scoring above that on BoardVitals and practice exams, but is that number usually reasonable in your experiences?

The release from APMLE states that passing cutoff can range anywhere from 55%-75%. Understanding how they arrive at that number and why requires a Masters degree in the dark arts, but essentially they slide the scale so that anywhere between 8-20% of 1st time test takers fail. (the higher end of that scale may be a tad high).
Kinda sucks, especially since you could simply get a tough draw of questions, or disproportionate subject material (heavy on histo/neuro).
The upside is that there is, generally speaking, no material consequence to failing the 1st time, and the 2nd time you just have to meet a certain score threshold, which I believe is 50%-ish.

There's a very detailed report accounting how the exam is made, scored, etc. somewhere on NBPME's website called something like the Audit Panel Report. It's about 20 pages long though so I'll sum up some key points here. If you're really interested in the exact way its scored you can look up the modified Angoff method (used to score our board exam and most board exams).

The percentage that you need to pass will be unique to your exam. That allows a sort of standardization for difficulty, where someone with an easier exam will require a higher percentage to pass and someone with a more difficult exam will require a lower percentage to pass. The percentage needed to pass on your exam is scaled to a 75. That 75 is the scaled score, which is not a percentage, which is where most people get lost. On a difficult exam a scaled score of 75 might only require answering 60% correct, on an easier exam a scaled score of 75 might require answering 80% correct—now that they're using LOFT the passing percentages shouldn't be quite so drastically different between exams, I'm just trying to make a point. So let's say you have the harder exam and it's scaled so that you need 60% to get the 75 scaled score and pass. Anything from 0-59% is scaled to be 55-74. So the lowest scaled score you could possibly get is a 55, which would be 0% correct. The current bulletin reads "Failing candidates will receive a report with a failing scale score (between 55 and 74)." That's what that means. They don't say how high the scaled score goes but it really doesn't matter since its minimal competency, if you reach or exceed the cut score you simply get a "pass" result. The only reason the exam is scaled is for easy comparison between different years, since the question bank is different year to year.

So how is the cut score, the percentage you need, determined? I'm going to simplify the heck out of it, but you can look up the nitty gritty details if you want. Basically, a group of podiatrists looks over each question and determines the odds that a "minimally competent" podiatrist would answer that question correctly. They'll assign each question a percentage like a hard question might be 20% and an easy one might be 80%. Now let's say you have a test with 5 questions rated 20% (hard), 40% (medium), 60% (medium), 80% (easy), and 100% (easy). You can basically average those out to get your cut score of 60%. So on this specific test, a 60% is equivalent to a scaled score of 75 which would be a passing score. Now on the actual exam each question is actually weighted the exact same. So on our imaginary test you would need 60% to pass and that could be done in a number of ways including by (1) correctly answering the two easy questions and one medium difficulty question or (2) correctly answering the one hard question and two medium difficulty questions. This is an important concept to understand when studying because no matter how many easy, medium, or hard questions a particular exam is made of, you can see that the easy and medium questions will pretty much always get you to the cut score—I keep saying easy, medium, and hard because that's a simplified way of how LOFT (the algorithm they now use to make the exam) will assign you questions, giving everybody about the same number of easy, medium, and hard questions. Theoretically it should always be more worth your time to learn the very basic and fundamental facts of a subject before getting bogged down in the more specific and difficult details, since they've pretty much designed the exam to not expect you to answer the difficult questions correctly anyway.

That being said, not even NBPME knows exactly how much you will need to pass, that just depends on the exact question set you get. Also keep in mind that about 50ish questions are only on the exam to gather statistics for future use and do not count towards your cut score and do not have to meet the exam breakdown specifications (25% LEA, 13% physio, etc.). In addition, for any scored questions that perform poorly statistically, everyone is given the point for that question.

Now since they allowed backtracking as of the last administration of part 1, the national 1st time pass rate jumped a few points from where it usually is from about 85% to about 88%. So having backtracking should slightly increase our chances of passing. But since they've reworked the specifications (percentage breakdown per subject) for this exam we're about to take who knows how that will affect the pass rate.

Lastly, good luck everyone.

 

[Sweatshirt]

There's a very detailed report accounting how the exam is made, scored, etc. somewhere on NBPME's website called something like the Audit Panel Report. It's about 20 pages long though so I'll sum up some key points here. If you're really interested in the exact way its scored you can look up the modified Angoff method (used to score our board exam and most board exams).

The percentage that you need to pass will be unique to your exam. That allows a sort of standardization for difficulty, where someone with an easier exam will require a higher percentage to pass and someone with a more difficult exam will require a lower percentage to pass. The percentage needed to pass on your exam is scaled to a 75. That 75 is the scaled score, which is not a percentage, which is where most people get lost. On a difficult exam a scaled score of 75 might only require answering 60% correct, on an easier exam a scaled score of 75 might require answering 80% correct—now that they're using LOFT the passing percentages shouldn't be quite so drastically different between exams, I'm just trying to make a point. So let's say you have the harder exam and it's scaled so that you need 60% to get the 75 scaled score and pass. Anything from 0-59% is scaled to be 55-74. So the lowest scaled score you could possibly get is a 55, which would be 0% correct. The current bulletin reads "Failing candidates will receive a report with a failing scale score (between 55 and 74)." That's what that means. They don't say how high the scaled score goes but it really doesn't matter since its minimal competency, if you reach or exceed the cut score you simply get a "pass" result. The only reason the exam is scaled is for easy comparison between different years, since the question bank is different year to year.

So how is the cut score, the percentage you need, determined? I'm going to simplify the heck out of it, but you can look up the nitty gritty details if you want. Basically, a group of podiatrists looks over each question and determines the odds that a "minimally competent" podiatrist would answer that question correctly. They'll assign each question a percentage like a hard question might be 20% and an easy one might be 80%. Now let's say you have a test with 5 questions rated 20% (hard), 40% (medium), 60% (medium), 80% (easy), and 100% (easy). You can basically average those out to get your cut score of 60%. So on this specific test, a 60% is equivalent to a scaled score of 75 which would be a passing score. Now on the actual exam each question is actually weighted the exact same. So on our imaginary test you would need 60% to pass and that could be done in a number of ways including by (1) correctly answering the two easy questions and one medium difficulty question or (2) correctly answering the one hard question and two medium difficulty questions. This is an important concept to understand when studying because no matter how many easy, medium, or hard questions a particular exam is made of, you can see that the easy and medium questions will pretty much always get you to the cut score—I keep saying easy, medium, and hard because that's a simplified way of how LOFT (the algorithm they now use to make the exam) will assign you questions, giving everybody about the same number of easy, medium, and hard questions. Theoretically it should always be more worth your time to learn the very basic and fundamental facts of a subject before getting bogged down in the more specific and difficult details, since they've pretty much designed the exam to not expect you to answer the difficult questions correctly anyway.

That being said, not even NBPME knows exactly how much you will need to pass, that just depends on the exact question set you get. Also keep in mind that about 50ish questions are only on the exam to gather statistics for future use and do not count towards your cut score and do not have to meet the exam breakdown specifications (25% LEA, 13% physio, etc.). In addition, for any scored questions that perform poorly statistically, everyone is given the point for that question.

Now since they allowed backtracking as of the last administration of part 1, the national 1st time pass rate jumped a few points from where it usually is from about 85% to about 88%. So having backtracking should slightly increase our chances of passing. But since they've reworked the specifications (percentage breakdown per subject) for this exam we're about to take who knows how that will affect the pass rate.

Lastly, good luck everyone.

In my opinion if something needs this much explaining, then something needs changed

 

[TimmyTurner]

There's a very detailed report accounting how the exam is made, scored, etc. somewhere on NBPME's website called something like the Audit Panel Report. It's about 20 pages long though so I'll sum up some key points here. If you're really interested in the exact way its scored you can look up the modified Angoff method (used to score our board exam and most board exams).

Thanks for taking the time to break all this down. Largely confirmed my understanding of the process.
That said, I stand by my initial statement of, you need a Masters in the Dark arts to understand it fully. Exhibit A:

not even NBPME knows exactly how much you will need to pass

^kidding, I understand this is a requisite for the current scoring system.

I guess what I'm driving at is that as long as our exam is merely a Pass/Fail instead of scaled percentile ranking (MCAT or USMLE), the modified Angoff is superfluous to our needs. A single, set cutoff- similar to the NCLEX for nursing- would be sufficient and assure student confidence/ability to succeed.

hether we should be moving towards a percentile ranking board exam is a different conversation, but as long as it is pass/fail, talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill.

 

[call1800doctorb]

Is it better to do multiple passes of Boardvitals or to get a usmle question bank after completing Boardvitals? Are there any other apmle specific questions out there besides Boardvitals?

 

[Sweatshirt]

Is it better to do multiple passes of Boardvitals or to get a usmle question bank after completing Boardvitals? Are there any other apmle specific questions out there besides Boardvitals?

I went through BV 2-3 times. The more practice questions the better

 

[bobtheweazel]

Is it better to do multiple passes of Boardvitals or to get a usmle question bank after completing Boardvitals? Are there any other apmle specific questions out there besides Boardvitals?

In my opinion any USMLE questions will be way too difficult compared to the actual APMLE and are not worth wasting your time on. They wouldn't really be representative of how well you will do on the APMLE and will probably unnecessarily stress you out.

You can try looking through the old APMLE practice tests (2005, 2008) if you have access to those, or I can send them to you, each one should be like 180ish questions actually used on past versions of APMLE.

There are occasionally apps that pop up with APMLE questions of variable quality. There was a goldfarb app for a while. Most of these apps seem to only be live for a year or two before disappearing again.

You could also consider looking at board vitals questions for other professional tests (other than USMLE) such as for nursing or PA or whatever, some of those questions are of appropriate difficulty and content, you'll even find a good number of questions that board vitals repeats between professions which kinda shows how similar and therefore useful the prep materials for some of these different professional exams (other than USMLE) can be.

 

[Podstar]

Is it better to do multiple passes of Boardvitals or to get a usmle question bank after completing Boardvitals? Are there any other apmle specific questions out there besides Boardvitals?

I am on my second pass right now, and I definitely find myself still getting some wrong and learning from them even though I have seen them before. I will probably try to make it through 3 times before test day.