Forum Members Official APMLE Part 1 2024

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NeisseriaGon said:
There's a NBPME meeting next week. Our school told us that we should expect to hear something then. Not fair they're making us wait that long
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What are the possible outcomes in this?

1. We all have to retake it?
2. If the people with 205 questions fail, then that isn’t “a fair exam” by any means.
3. The people who fail retake for free?

I have no idea what they are going to decide in this situation….there is no outcome that seems fair to everyone
 
prettyphalanges said:
What are the possible outcomes in this?

1. We all have to retake it?
2. If the people with 205 questions fail, then that isn’t “a fair exam” by any means.
3. The people who fail retake for free?

I have no idea what they are going to decide in this situation….there is no outcome that seems fair to everyone
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The exam is standardized but isn't fair for the 205Q group if even one person fails, as they had >25% more questions with the same 4 hours limit as the 150Q group. The angoff sets cutoff scores based on exam difficulty, not student performance comparisons, so while it standardizes the exam, it doesn't address fairness for the 205Q group. Conversely, the 150Q group faced different testing conditions, so the exam isn't standardized for them.

1. All students in the 150Q group retake the exam.

This ensures standardization but not fairness, poses logistical problems, and frustrates those who passed the original exam but could potentially fail the retake. However, it is the simplest solution.

2. My Proposal: free retakes for only those who fail (both groups) and replace failures with passes on records.

This ensures fairness by offering free retakes under standardized conditions to those who fail in both groups, replacing fail records with pass records. The 205Q group faced an unfair disadvantage due to additional questions, while the 150Q group dealt with unexpected exam conditions, causing confusion and stress. Additionally, this approach would significantly save money and reduce logistical issues since fewer people would need to retake the exam. Most people pass on their second attempt, so while it would still be an inconvenience, the overall 1st time pass rate would be higher compared to the other option since we are replacing the fail with the pass.

Overall, there is no perfect solution and I'll refer back to what I said previously. Meazure has botched our board exam, and NBPME is responsible for contracting them. Passing or failing feels like playing the Meazure lottery. They might as well decide who passes by drawing names out of a hat. It's a circus show! 🤡
 
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Bored Snorlax said:
Podiatry needs strong leadership now more than ever. The testing company’s long history of negative reviews and technical problems is a clear red flag that they’re unfit to host a national board licensing exam.

This lack of foresight and incompetence has caused unnecessary stress and confusion for students. Those with experimental questions felt unfairly tested, as they could have used that time for real questions to improve their chances of passing. Meanwhile those with shorter forms faced a completely different exam. Both groups are equally disadvantaged by this flawed system. These vastly different conditions make it impossible to standardize the exam, creating a complete disaster.

Immediate action is needed to address future exams. The use of this testing company must be reconsidered to prevent this from happening again. Better oversight is crucial, as these problems keep recurring in podiatry. Those in charge must recognize the damage caused and take steps to fix it.

TL;DR: Stronger leadership and oversight are essential to prevent future issues.

P.S. Seriously partnering with a 1 star company for the most important exam in podiatry? WTF that's like hiring a mime to teach public speaking. What on earth were they thinking?
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You will learn that podiatrists often don't care much about the juniors behind them, probably ultimately due to having their own current issues with low income for debt acquired..

Once you get through school, you won't look back or care how the school is doing.

I suspect the same thing with residency. After your residency, you won't look back.

We have to keep moving forward individually because of things like wage to debt income being a way more significant factor, than how the classes are doing behind us.
 
Feli said:
...I will say that I really hope the guy gets outsted from ABFAS board. This faceplant of NBPME exams was clearly his brainchild. He is clearly inept or way overextended trying to be more of a podo-politician with a dozen hats than dedicating to any role. The stakes are even higher - and more expensive - for ABFAS tests.
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I really hope this is the case. I wonder if we can get @diabeticfootdr involved on this. Despite some hate he received from other members of podiatry, I really think he will be the one advocating on behalf of students on this issue. Politics or not, at least I get more support from him and ABPM in my career.

Ramdass being on CPME, NBPME and also on the ABFAS board will just validate ABPM's claim that there are a lot of conflicts of interests with these board members serving on multiple committees. He should be out, or otherwise ABFAS will be discredited further. I definitely don't want to see ABFAS moving to this new Meazure company.
 
Robin-jay said:
You will learn that podiatrists often don't care much about the juniors behind them, probably ultimately due to having their own current issues with low income for debt acquired..

Once you get through school, you won't look back or care how the school is doing.

I suspect the same thing with residency. After your residency, you won't look back.

We have to keep moving forward individually because of things like wage to debt income being a way more significant factor, than how the classes are doing behind us.
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This is one of those things that's always interesting - ie. how does the same old same old keep happening.

1. The people in power truly believe everything is great or good enough because it ultimately worked out for them or it seems better than when they suffered through it.
2. By the time you have enough power to change anything - you don't actually believe in changing anything anymore.
3. You can never actually get the power to change anything even if you try because the system is so insulated and self preserving - ie. Deans regulating themselves through CPME
4. Even if you have the power to change anything, the system is always responding to a new catastrophe or collapse of the profession and so you constantly just have to give into the suck because otherwise there would be nothing left at to save

I'm mostly a believer that the system's failure to regulate itself at any level is what results in the continuous collapse. For example - how did we have a resident crisis? Failure to regulate how new schools are opened. Why does MCAT average never increase - schools never set standards and then wonder why they constantly have high attrition.

I will tell you that fighting to change things will just exhaust you. I fought to get my residency to add new attendings that were doing things my attendings were not doing. It would have massively increased our rearfoot/ankle volume. My PD essentially sabotaged me by moving their surgery day to the other doctor's surgery day to make me choose between them or him. The residents after me refused to drive to another hospital. The new attendings wondered if there would be any renumeration and voileau. Everything stayed the same.
 
This was a major misadministration of the exam. It was also preventable. I met Meazure at an NBPME reception at the HOD. They spent the whole time trying to get ABPM's business. I asked them if they had other medical boards as clients, and they said no. I also asked about their other clients, and it seemed like just smaller groups. At that time, I wondered why NBPME would do this. The ED, Phil Park, told me that it was much cheaper. Albeit, Prometric wasn't absent of any problems. And, of course, there can be software problems with any exam administrator, but this problem was entirely avoidable. The NBPME should've viewed the exam in a testing center before the exam was given (ABPM does this), especially with a new and inexperienced exam administrator.

This result is that this exam wasn't fair, with the same time given for 150 or 205 questions, and it seems like they tried to correct it in the middle of the exam since there were few examinees in the West that had only 150 questions. So the 55 field tested items were mostly given to Western examinees. That means the field test was biased toward Western schools and these items should not be used on future exams. They should've just left the exam at 150 questions for the whole country.

If a more complete investigation finds this to be true, major changes should occur at NBPME, including the resignation or removal of the executive director.
 
msion said:
...He should be out, or otherwise ABFAS will be discredited further. I definitely don't want to see ABFAS moving to this new Meazure company.
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I agree.

But did I miss the part where ABFAS was 'discredited'?

I agree the Meazure junk would've spread to ABFAS (or ramdass would've at least tried) if it'd worked halfway well on Apmle.

Prometric is not perfect... but they're the industry leader for good reason.
 
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Feli said:
This said by guy whose executive director, majority of the board, and many others quit on him mid-term of presidency. 🤔
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Let's not turn this into another ABFAS vs. ABPM thread. ABPM didn't have this kinda of testing fiasco at least for the exams I took.

I equally respect ABFAS. But there is a lot of inbreeding there among ABFAS, ACFAS, and CPME. ABFAS/ACFAS is not rock solid either. I remember back at the Vegas conference in 2017 there was a petition going on to overthrow the existing board. It's all politics though. The same can be said about the AO course. It's way different now in terms of quality. But always the same group of guys everywhere.

The focus here is to bring justice to the podiatry students whom many are already in heavy debt for their education for this field. And the whole thing is just result of pure greed from the higher ups. So yes Ramdass should resign from all his positions IMO.
 
heybrother said:
This is one of those things that's always interesting - ie. how does the same old same old keep happening.

1. The people in power truly believe everything is great or good enough because it ultimately worked out for them or it seems better than when they suffered through it.
2. By the time you have enough power to change anything - you don't actually believe in changing anything anymore.
3. You can never actually get the power to change anything even if you try because the system is so insulated and self preserving - ie. Deans regulating themselves through CPME
4. Even if you have the power to change anything, the system is always responding to a new catastrophe or collapse of the profession and so you constantly just have to give into the suck because otherwise there would be nothing left at to save

I'm mostly a believer that the system's failure to regulate itself at any level is what results in the continuous collapse. For example - how did we have a resident crisis? Failure to regulate how new schools are opened. Why does MCAT average never increase - schools never set standards and then wonder why they constantly have high attrition.

I will tell you that fighting to change things will just exhaust you. I fought to get my residency to add new attendings that were doing things my attendings were not doing. It would have massively increased our rearfoot/ankle volume. My PD essentially sabotaged me by moving their surgery day to the other doctor's surgery day to make me choose between them or him. The residents after me refused to drive to another hospital. The new attendings wondered if there would be any renumeration and voileau. Everything stayed the same.
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Wonderful, so our best DPMs forget the struggles and cause chaos and the majority of the other DPMs are just struggling with their own income to debt issues.

So we are left with almost no one to actually build the field in good conscious. Perfect.
 
diabeticfootdr said:
This was a major misadministration of the exam. It was also preventable. I met Meazure at an NBPME reception at the HOD. They spent the whole time trying to get ABPM's business. I asked them if they had other medical boards as clients, and they said no. I also asked about their other clients, and it seemed like just smaller groups. At that time, I wondered why NBPME would do this. The ED, Phil Park, told me that it was much cheaper. Albeit, Prometric wasn't absent of any problems. And, of course, there can be software problems with any exam administrator, but this problem was entirely avoidable. The NBPME should've viewed the exam in a testing center before the exam was given (ABPM does this), especially with a new and inexperienced exam administrator.

This result is that this exam wasn't fair, with the same time given for 150 or 205 questions, and it seems like they tried to correct it in the middle of the exam since there were few examinees in the West that had only 150 questions. So the 55 field tested items were mostly given to Western examinees. That means the field test was biased toward Western schools and these items should not be used on future exams. They should've just left the exam at 150 questions for the whole country.

If a more complete investigation finds this to be true, major changes should occur at NBPME, including the resignation or removal of the executive director.
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I share your frustration about the poor administration of the exam. It's incredibly disappointing that Meazure prioritized business acquisition over ensuring a fair and reliable exam process. Knowing this issue was preventable makes it even more infuriating.

The NBPME should have thoroughly vetted Meazure to ensure all testing conditions were standardized and fair. If they knowingly compromised our board certification exam by choosing a cheaper, inadequate testing company, a thorough investigation is necessary. Oversight committees should be formed immediately by APMA, CPME, or other relevant bodies to prevent this from happening again.

Ultimately, students suffer the most from this situation, adding to the immense stress of classes and clinicals. The lack of a prompt statement from NBPME only heightens our uncertainty and anxiety about the future. It's crucial that NBPME resolves this quickly and with the interests of students in mind, ensuring transparency and accountability in the process.
 
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Bored Snorlax said:
I share your frustration about the poor administration of the exam. It's incredibly disappointing that Meazure prioritized business acquisition over ensuring a fair and reliable exam process. Knowing this issue was preventable makes it even more infuriating.

The NBPME should have thoroughly vetted Meazure to ensure all testing conditions were standardized and fair. If they knowingly compromised our board certification exam by choosing a cheaper, inadequate testing company, a thorough investigation is necessary. Oversight committees should be formed immediately by APMA, CPME, or other relevant bodies to prevent this from happening again.

Ultimately, students suffer the most from this situation, adding to the immense stress of classes and clinicals. The lack of a prompt statement from NBPME only heightens our uncertainty and anxiety about the future. It's crucial that NBPME resolves this quickly and with the interests of students in mind, ensuring transparency and accountability in the process.
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NBPME can barely answer an E-mail or take a phone call. How on Earth do you expect them to do something as complex as being diligent for a testing company.
 
diabeticfootdr said:
This was a major misadministration of the exam. It was also preventable. I met Meazure at an NBPME reception at the HOD. They spent the whole time trying to get ABPM's business. I asked them if they had other medical boards as clients, and they said no. I also asked about their other clients, and it seemed like just smaller groups. At that time, I wondered why NBPME would do this. The ED, Phil Park, told me that it was much cheaper. Albeit, Prometric wasn't absent of any problems. And, of course, there can be software problems with any exam administrator, but this problem was entirely avoidable. The NBPME should've viewed the exam in a testing center before the exam was given (ABPM does this), especially with a new and inexperienced exam administrator.
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Meazure Learning has also been involved in the contract to implement the AAMC PREview exam, which is given as a situational judgment test (SJT) to aspiring physicians applying to AMCAS and AACOMAS. I have been following SJTs in a different subforum on SDN. Note: they also have run under a different name called Yardstick Assessment Strategies (ProctorU and Yardstick Rebrand to Meazure Learning).

PREview is different in that examinees can take this assessment at home, but it involves live virtual proctors and a process where the test-takers computer is essentially locked down and the room scanned for security purposes. So many concerns were raised in the first non-pilot year (2022) that they put up a video on the AAMC PREview website in 2023 that gives candidates an idea of what to expect with the security check. I have been assured that some candidates with specific accommodations are allowed to take PREview at a testing center, but your story is the first to grab my attention that Meazure Learning does manage testing centers. (Again I hadn't been paying that much attention.)

I don't know if these problems were apparent in any of the year-long preparations to implement the exam, including any practice exams you may have had access to (granted, not in a testing center). Was your testing experience similar to the practice test offered?

There are a lot of moving parts with administering an exam, and no doubt all the key stakeholders involved with signing the contract will go through some investigation to figure out why the execution of the exam was compromised. No one wants to see this type of situation, and I'm waiting to see if it catches the regular higher ed press...

ML does have a forensics team, and I'm sure it may take a few weeks to figure out what the problem was and to craft an explanation for the NBPME, the APMA, and the AACPM before a more public explanation to test-takers and faculty advisors.
 
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I’ve been reading all of this and all the frustration voiced is exactly how I’m feeling.

Someone messaged the dean at our school and we basically just got a response that “measure is aware of this and they were just experimental questions so it won’t hurt scoring”. But no one is taking into account all of the other issues with the testing, including that the people who had 205 questions had less time per question than the 150 group. In the other hand, those who had 150 questions were ALSO at a disadvantage. We all know as a general rule of thumb- sometimes you can find the answer to a question in the stem of another question. The 150 group completely lost this opportunity.

At this point I don’t even care about the administration crap, I just want to know we’ll be scored fairly and accurately. If anyone fails, we have no idea if it was actually because of content gap or if it was because of the non standardization of this exam. This isn’t fair, plain and simple. Does anyone know who we need to talk to or what we need to do to address the grading? Do we need to form some sort of student union lol? Like seriously, I’m so upset and just want to pass and move on.
 
Mr.Smile12 said:
Meazure Learning has also been involved in the contract to implement the AAMC PREview exam, which is given as a situational judgment test (SJT) to aspiring physicians applying to AMCAS and AACOMAS. I have been following SJTs in a different subforum on SDN. Note: they also have run under a different name called Yardstick Assessment Strategies (ProctorU and Yardstick Rebrand to Meazure Learning).

PREview is different in that examinees can take this assessment at home, but it involves live virtual proctors and a process where the test-takers computer is essentially locked down and the room scanned for security purposes. So many concerns were raised in the first non-pilot year (2022) that they put up a video on the AAMC PREview website in 2023 that gives candidates an idea of what to expect with the security check. I have been assured that some candidates with specific accommodations are allowed to take PREview at a testing center, but your story is the first to grab my attention that Meazure Learning does manage testing centers. (Again I hadn't been paying that much attention.)

I don't know if these problems were apparent in any of the year-long preparations to implement the exam, including any practice exams you may have had access to (granted, not in a testing center). Was your testing experience similar to the practice test offered?

There are a lot of moving parts with administering an exam, and no doubt all the key stakeholders involved with signing the contract will go through some investigation to figure out why the execution of the exam was compromised. No one wants to see this type of situation, and I'm waiting to see if it catches the regular higher ed press...

ML does have a forensics team, and I'm sure it may take a few weeks to figure out what the problem was and to craft an explanation for the NBPME, the APMA, and the AACPM before a more public explanation to test-takers and faculty advisors.
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They cheaped out and cut corners on a crucial podiatric board exam by not vetting meazure carefully, and now everyone is in a mess. Taking the exam in a Walmart parking lot would probably get a better rating than this.

IMG_1586.jpeg
 
To be fair, Prometric is not much better rated, plus they charge more. No one gives high marks to testing center companies.
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Mr.Smile12 said:
To be fair, Prometric is not much better rated, plus they charge more. No one gives high marks to testing center companies.
www.trustpilot.com

Prometric is rated "Bad" with 1.2 / 5 on Trustpilot

Do you agree with Prometric's TrustScore? Voice your opinion today and hear what 434 customers have already said.
www.trustpilot.com www.trustpilot.com

Anyone wish to update an old article: we're all ears:
www.studentdoctor.net

What to Expect at the Testing Center - SDN

The Student Doctor Network provides free tools, resources, and advising services to help students become health professionals.
www.studentdoctor.net www.studentdoctor.net

Also, we encourage people to give feedback to help our aggregator site.

Home | Review2

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This was their first time hosting the APMLE Part 1, and it turned into a complete disaster. The technical issues were overwhelming. The lack of a built-in check to ensure every candidate had the same number of questions highlights how flawed their software is. Experiences varied vastly depending on the location since they rent different sites to host the exams. Someone in this thread even took their exam in the middle of a construction zone, which is just absurd. All of these factors are crucial for a standardized exam. While Prometric isn't flawless, I've never heard of such a major blunder happening with them. I guess you get what you pay for.
 
Bored Snorlax said:
This was their first time hosting the APMLE Part 1, and it turned into a complete disaster. The technical issues were overwhelming. The lack of a built-in check to ensure every candidate had the same number of questions highlights how flawed their software is. Experiences varied vastly depending on the location since they rent different sites to host the exams. Someone in this thread even took their exam in the middle of a construction zone, which is just absurd. All of these factors are crucial for a standardized exam. While Prometric isn't flawless, I've never heard of such a major blunder happening with them. I guess you get what you pay for.
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Not disagreeing. They also seem to be running other certification exams, but to get this snafu the first time they run this board exam is incredible. We do hear about similar weird issues with other standardized exams run on other secured computer systems, but not to this extent. It sounds like one of the forms may have eliminated the 50 experimental questions (conjecture, need to verify this), which one has to do to make sure those questions aren't scored in the final calculations of performance.

Again, please let me know when this catches on in the mainstream higher ed media or at least in the places podiatrists read up on their peers in the profession.
 
Bored Snorlax said:
This was their first time hosting the APMLE Part 1, and it turned into a complete disaster. The technical issues were overwhelming. The lack of a built-in check to ensure every candidate had the same number of questions highlights how flawed their software is. Experiences varied vastly depending on the location since they rent different sites to host the exams. Someone in this thread even took their exam in the middle of a construction zone, which is just absurd. All of these factors are crucial for a standardized exam. While Prometric isn't flawless, I've never heard of such a major blunder happening with them. I guess you get what you pay for.
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They've hosted APMLE par 2 and 3 before APMLE part 1.

I think those actually went fine.

But in my honest opinion, I think Meazure is better than Prometric. I had vastly more issues even contacting Prometric, whereas Meazure gets back to you asap.
 
Robin-jay said:
...But in my honest opinion, I think Meazure is better than Prometric. I had vastly more issues even contacting Prometric, whereas Meazure gets back to you asap.
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So, you value quickness returning a phone call or email over having staff there to unlock the test centers, having 25% of the questions not go missing, and having the testing centers secure with regard to papers/notes getting in or out? Hrmm.

...Guys, not only does this disaster have a huge damage to the 2024 results (again, I say they'll have no choice but to just pass all)...
...but it also throws a wrench in future pt1 Abple exams. The test questions now can't be validated (or tossed out) as not enough people tried them, and it's easy for 'board prep' (aka people who write down questions as fast as they can after leaving) to figure out what the real (scored) questions on this exam are based on people who got 150 questions talking with 200+ questions takers. The exam will need a near-total overhaul, so the effects of this blunder go far beyond one testing date.

If they keep with Measure for this exam (and the Nbpme people who switched to them) after this, that's beyond belief. It was a cost-cut move that'll almost surely land them in litigation. There are hundreds of millions in student loans riding on this exam (probably at least a half billion in students' tuition flowing through via each year's podiatry school aggregate graduate class!), and it's terrible to see an exam that decides clerkships, graduation, and many other factors administered so poorly.

Stuff like this makes ppl whining about ABFAS exam xrays being hard to see or the CBPS format being unfair look pretty trivial. At least other podiatry exams can manage to give the same test to all takers. 🙁

I do agree totall with @Mr.Smile12 that testing companies/centers almost universally get fair-to-bad reviews, though. It's the same with most hospitals. People are stressed and frayed nerves overall when they're a "customer." However, it's no secret who the market leader in testing are, and that tells you quite a bit when you get to making these decisions for major exams.
 
Feli said:
So, you value quickness returning a phone call or email over having staff there to unlock the test centers, having 25% of the questions not go missing, and having the testing centers secure with regard to papers/notes getting in or out? Hrmm.

...Guys, not only does this disaster have a huge damage to the 2024 results (again, I say they'll have no choice but to just pass all)...
...but it also throws a wrench in future pt1 Abple exams. The test questions now can't be validated (or tossed out) as not enough people tried them, and it's easy for 'board prep' (aka people who write down questions as fast as they can after leaving) to figure out what the real (scored) questions on this exam are based on people who got 150 questions talking with 200+ questions takers. The exam will need a near-total overhaul, so the effects of this blunder go far beyond one testing date.

If they keep with Measure for this exam (and the Nbpme people who switched to them) after this, that's beyond belief. It was a cost-cut move that'll almost surely land them in litigation. There are hundreds of millions in student loans riding on this exam (probably at least a half billion in students' tuition flowing through via each year's podiatry school aggregate graduate class!), and it's terrible to see an exam that decides clerkships, graduation, and many other factors administered so poorly.

Stuff like this makes ppl whining about ABFAS exam xrays being hard to see or the CBPS format being unfair look pretty trivial. At least other podiatry exams can manage to give the same test to all takers. 🙁

I do agree totall with @Mr.Smile12 that testing companies/centers almost universally get fair-to-bad reviews, though. It's the same with most hospitals. People are stressed and frayed nerves overall when they're a "customer." However, it's no secret who the market leader in testing are, and that tells you quite a bit when you get to making these decisions for major exams.
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Prometric has done my friends and colleagues dirty in many ways, just as Meazure.

My APMLE results were given to the school but NBPME and Prometric wouldn't update or give me official documentation without me constantly trying to get in touch with over the duration of 6 MONTHS.

Imagine being told you passed by the school and that NBPME told the school that, but no official documentation existed for 6 months for reasons I have no idea.

So no, Meazure isn't better than prometric for the reasons you aforementioned, that's why.

I think both Prometric and Meazure are poor, very poor, testing corporations.

But at least with Meazure, I can actually talk to someone quickly and efficiently from their corporation. Prometric sent me to a call center in India, as if they are going to understand my complaint about official results not showing up in my Prometric portal.

Spoiler. They did not.

NBPME and Meazure should honestly be sued. I'm tired of hearing about this garbage. They aren't going to stop this until there are actual legal consequences.
 
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Only in podiatry could something happen that sucks for the field and everyone involved, and people still come at each other. It truly is every man for himself in this field. Trust no one, it seems.
 
Class action lawsuit is the best way to go about this students. The test is completely invalidated just on the time awarded to certain students vs others.

And shame on the deans of the podiatry school for not caring.
 
There isn't going to be a lawsuit. This forum sometimes has a group think component to it. Is it a botch and stupid and what not? Absolutely. Its embarrassing that this profession can't deliver an exam without something stupid happening and its even worse that it potentially happened because of money.

But all this disaster and melodramatic talk is just going to get an eye roll from NBPME or whoever alphabet soup org. There will be a "quasi-apology or a "non-explaining explanation" about how the testing underwent rigorous statistical analysis and that the results are still valid even if the circumstances are non-ideal.

If NBPME has a multi-year contract or a contract that would be difficult to break or a compelling financial reason for their decision - the show will go on even with all the stupid stuff like testing centers not being open. You will be informed that assuredly NBPME continues to work with Meazure to improve and deliver the highest quality testing experience and that they have successfully delivered other forms of testing for podiatry without complication in the past. The kinks will be worked out, the process will be improved. Blah blah.

I've written plenty of my own "this is bs" posts to try and get things changed where I described with great detail and emotion the indignity and "unfairness" of what I was subjected to. Everyone should obviously strive to make the strongest case for their own benefit that they can.

-Students who received 205 questions took the real exam. They weren't subjected to anything other than what they should have been subjected to to begin with and their pass or failure status is simply a result of their own work and effort.

-Students who took the 150 questions simply received an abbreviated examination containing the entirety of the examination. They still received and completed all the questions associated with their real score. Their results are still valid - they simply will not have provided contributions to future testing. In fact they have received additional time. They are not entitled to any additional information or stems from other questions and in fact NBPME likely strives to prevent that from happening and believes that to be a non-contributory to overall scoring.

-Whether a student had a 150 or 205 questions - they simply received a more than adequate number of hours to take the examination. In fact, assuredly NBPME knows on average how much time students require to take the examination. The examination time length is likely set at 4 hours to allow 2 cohorts of students to take the examination in a day. They assuredly could decrease the exam length if they desired. Its set at 4 hours merely to be long enough to allow enough time and likely to allow students with disabilities to have adequate test taking time.

If something different happens than I've described - it was likely even worse than anyone has described on here. You don't have to like what I've written. But if you're expecting something big to happen you're in for a disappointment.
 
heybrother said:
There isn't going to be a lawsuit. This forum sometimes has a group think component to it. Is it a botch and stupid and what not? Absolutely. Its embarrassing that this profession can't deliver an exam without something stupid happening and its even worse that it potentially happened because of money.

But all this disaster and melodramatic talk is just going to get an eye roll from NBPME or whoever alphabet soup org. There will be a "quasi-apology or a "non-explaining explanation" about how the testing underwent rigorous statistical analysis and that the results are still valid even if the circumstances are non-ideal.

If NBPME has a multi-year contract or a contract that would be difficult to break or a compelling financial reason for their decision - the show will go on even with all the stupid stuff like testing centers not being open. You will be informed that assuredly NBPME continues to work with Meazure to improve and deliver the highest quality testing experience and that they have successfully delivered other forms of testing for podiatry without complication in the past. The kinks will be worked out, the process will be improved. Blah blah.

I've written plenty of my own "this is bs" posts to try and get things changed where I described with great detail and emotion the indignity and "unfairness" of what I was subjected to. Everyone should obviously strive to make the strongest case for their own benefit that they can.

-Students who received 205 questions took the real exam. They weren't subjected to anything other than what they should have been subjected to to begin with and their pass or failure status is simply a result of their own work and effort.

-Students who took the 150 questions simply received an abbreviated examination containing the entirety of the examination. They still received and completed all the questions associated with their real score. Their results are still valid - they simply will not have provided contributions to future testing. In fact they have received additional time. They are not entitled to any additional information or stems from other questions and in fact NBPME likely strives to prevent that from happening and believes that to be a non-contributory to overall scoring.

-Whether a student had a 150 or 205 questions - they simply received a more than adequate number of hours to take the examination. In fact, assuredly NBPME knows on average how much time students require to take the examination. The examination time length is likely set at 4 hours to allow 2 cohorts of students to take the examination in a day. They assuredly could decrease the exam length if they desired. Its set at 4 hours merely to be long enough to allow enough time and likely to allow students with disabilities to have adequate test taking time.

If something different happens than I've described - it was likely even worse than anyone has described on here. You don't have to like what I've written. But if you're expecting something big to happen you're in for a disappointment.
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Buddy…regardless of the “facts” you’ve listed, the exam wasn’t fair. It wasn’t standardized. Board exams are supposed to be standardized. You can’t call it a national board exam and have different testing environments/procedures and grade it fairly on a curve. That’s what everyone is talking about. Experimental or not, having more time on an exam than other students (without exam accommodations) is unfair. That’s all it comes down to. All students should’ve been tested the same way and they weren’t.
 
graphite988 said:
Buddy…regardless of the “facts” you’ve listed, the exam wasn’t fair. It wasn’t standardized. Board exams are supposed to be standardized. You can’t call it a national board exam and have different testing environments/procedures and grade it fairly on a curve. That’s what everyone is talking about. Experimental or not, having more time on an exam than other students (without exam accommodations) is unfair. That’s all it comes down to. All students should’ve been tested the same way and they weren’t.
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Buddy. You’re in for a treat. APMLE part 2 and 3 are even more trash, regardless of who administers it because we have antiquated 80 year old dudes writing the questions or recycled continuously last 15 years. It is a lie if they have volunteer exam writers. You wonder why on here we all say don’t even study for part 3? It’s that bad

The questions on these exams test below minimal competency. If majority can’t even finish in 1-2 hours then…..

ABFAS in training and after grad exams are trash too. Missing X-rays. Pixelated images. Grammar, spelling, esoteric topics. Meazure or prometric, doesn’t matter.

This is all a money grab at the end of the day. Too many hands in the pot to listen to the collective concerns. Not sure why you’re trying to discount hey brother when he has far more experience than you. I understand you may feel frustrated but this is only a fraction of what will experience later on.
 
wakaflocka88 said:
Buddy. You’re in for a treat. APMLE part 2 and 3 are even more trash, regardless of who administers it because we have antiquated 80 year old dudes writing the questions or recycled continuously last 15 years. It is a lie if they have volunteer exam writers. You wonder why on here we all say don’t even study for part 3? It’s that bad

The questions on these exams test below minimal competency. If majority can’t even finish in 1-2 hours then…..

ABFAS in training and after grad exams are trash too. Missing X-rays. Pixelated images. Grammar, spelling, esoteric topics. Meazure or prometric, doesn’t matter.

This is all a money grab at the end of the day. Too many hands in the pot to listen to the collective concerns. Not sure why you’re trying to discount hey brother when he has far more experience than you. I understand you may feel frustrated but this is only a fraction of what will experience later on.
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We all agree it’s a money grab- that’s beyond transparent. But telling us outright that nothing will be done isn’t productive. It isn’t about whether you SHOULD be able the finish 150 or 200 questions in 4 hours. It’s the fact that not everyone got the same amount or same time for the exam. A standardized exam can’t be this loosey goosey. If enough student complain, they would have to do SOMETHING to ensure fairness in grading. So, with all that said, I’m not trying to discredit anyone. Telling us nothing will happen and to just get used to it is not the solution nor is it productive. While you may have more experience than us, culture changes only happen with people starting a conversation. If we don’t do anything about it then surely nothing will happen.
 
Sometimes its hard to hear the opinions of people who disagree with you or have a different opinion than you, but that doesn't mean they can't be part of a conversation or that their opinions are unproductive. You want to fight your dean or the NBPME? I've told you what they are going to say. You've told me that's unfair and that its not a standardized exam. If you think you are going to make someone in power change you are going to have to gather more facts and sharpen your arguments. I don't hold any sort of podiatry leadership position. I don't have a dog in the fight. I have however fought for things for myself in the past and I was sometimes successful. I never once succeeded though by using the word "fair". Acknowledging and understanding the position of your opponent is often crucial to changing their mind.

I personally think the people running podiatry's tests could do themselves a huge favor by creating a transparent feedback system after exams so people could at least feel their complaints were heard even if they won't be addressed.
 
Robin-jay said:
Prometric has done my friends and colleagues dirty in many ways, just as Meazure.
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Prometric once upon a time canceled my board exam and offered me a new slot at a center that was a 4 hr plane ride away. I totally agree… they have done people dirty
 
heybrother said:
Sometimes its hard to hear the opinions of people who disagree with you or have a different opinion than you, but that doesn't mean they can't be part of a conversation or that their opinions are unproductive. You want to fight your dean or the NBPME? I've told you what they are going to say. You've told me that's unfair and that its not a standardized exam. If you think you are going to make someone in power change you are going to have to gather more facts and sharpen your arguments. I don't hold any sort of podiatry leadership position. I don't have a dog in the fight. I have however fought for things for myself in the past and I was sometimes successful. I never once succeeded though by using the word "fair". Acknowledging and understanding the position of your opponent is often crucial to changing their mind.

I personally think the people running podiatry's tests could do themselves a huge favor by creating a transparent feedback system after exams so people could at least feel their complaints were heard even if they won't be addressed.
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I hear what you're saying. We live in a system where "fair" doesn't cut it. NBPME will release a statement today that will be some form of "we hear the concerns, but can promise this will be graded fairly". That's a slap in the face to those of us who took the exam, but that won't matter to them. What does seem to matter is the money going into the pockets of those with power. It's starting to feel like if we want a real change, we need to start impacting the bottom line of the universities and the alphabet groups. Would be a real shame for them if all the students affected by this told every prospective student to avoid the field as a whole. Maybe a significant decrease of incoming students and loss of federal funding would actually make them open their eyes.
 
Feli said:
This has happened before in a different way... early 200x timeline.

I think NYCPM and Ohio CPM (now Kent) were accused of cheating on pt1, some people had scores invalidated. I'm sure it's never fully angel or devil, but some students apparently just had a 'study guide' that was considered stealing of prior year test questions. If you look up those schools and "NBPME" and "Chauncey Group," you will see both group lawsuits were successful... scores validated and people reimbursed for stress and hardship.


Lol, you expect the people cashing checks from Jublia and sandals companies... while greenlighting new podiatry schools when we have terrible ROI and applicants also... and re-approving and even expanding residency seats at VA programs and other 'residencies' with pitiful amounts of surgery and low board pass rates to be the solution? 😗
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Fair point. Maybe I'm still too optimistic.
 
APMLEHATER said:
I hear what you're saying. We live in a system where "fair" doesn't cut it. NBPME will release a statement today that will be some form of "we hear the concerns, but can promise this will be graded fairly". That's a slap in the face to those of us who took the exam, but that won't matter to them. What does seem to matter is the money going into the pockets of those with power. It's starting to feel like if we want a real change, we need to start impacting the bottom line of the universities and the alphabet groups. Would be a real shame for them if all the students affected by this told every prospective student to avoid the field as a whole. Maybe a significant decrease of incoming students and loss of federal funding would actually make them open their eyes.
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You get it.
 
rightfootforward said:
View attachment 389511
As expected 🥹
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Would love to see the data and how they came to conclusion that "additional time does not affect performance outcomes". Feels like the kind of thing that could be proven/disproven pretty easily. That kind of transparency should be included within the $975 testing fees. But we all know that will never happen. Sounds like it's time to start telling premed students to avoid podiatry at all costs.
 
rightfootforward said:
View attachment 389511
As expected 🥹
Click to expand...

So basically “even though students got 26 seconds more per question than other students, and some students focused on questions that do not matter while others had the entire time to focus on questions that do matter, this test is fair and if you fail that’s on you”

That’s what I got from it
 
Psychometric reliability doesn't equal fairness. Meazure is deciding our futures.
 
Last edited:
rightfootforward said:
View attachment 389511
As expected 🥹
Click to expand...
Its hard to imagine that a company who has LITERALLY 1 JOB: to deliver an extremely important exam -- failed to do a practice-run and work out the kinks to ensure that we would get the exam that we all expected. Technology can be unpredictable, but this wasn't as simple as slow wifi... it was a complete exclusion of 55 QUESTIONS it doesn't matter if they were 'experimental and won't affect our grade' or not. The sad reality is; it feels like a lose-lose situation here.
The concerns coming from both ends (whether you had 150 or 205) are completely valid and we are well within our right to ask questions and demand answers. We actually should feel entitled to do so.
I feel the same about the way they reacted over the phone on the day of. We were given the runaround, no accountability was taken, had to beg and plead and call multiple times to speak to someone higher on the totem pole, who still could not acknowledge our concerns.

(Side note; I want to know more about the rationale behind the statement "additional time does not affect performance outcomes" ....ummm okay then, explain to me how my exam grades significantly improved when I used extra time in undergrad? If they stand by this statement, they technically should not allow an 'extra time accommodation' for anyone with this test to begin with. But wait, that would be considered ableist...yikes.
I can fully understand if a student who had 205Q felt jipped on time, compared to a student who had only 150 with the same time limit. And arguments can be made that going into this, we knew there was going to be 205 and we planned accordingly. However, **** hit the fan...and that playing field was no longer level. Just something to think about).

Unless they pull some fast & fancy tricks, and inform us of exactly how they standardize these scores (I'm not getting my hopes up)...this exam cannot be standardized in my opinion. I almost don't want to even say that because if they make us retake it....I will cry.
I will also cry if our score release date is pushed back due to them needing more time to figure it out. I hope & pray that they are working around the clock to make this right.

The trust in the company has been broken. And now we are expected to blindly trust whatever software or algorithm they use to grade & standardize our scores? That's asking alot from students. What do they mean by "psychometrically" ??? So they're just telling us that their interpretation of our performance is more important than our OWN? Are we being gaslit? LOL.
 
seekingadvice123 said:
Its hard to imagine that a company who has LITERALLY 1 JOB: to deliver an extremely important exam -- failed to do a practice-run and work out the kinks to ensure that we would get the exam that we all expected. Technology can be unpredictable, but this wasn't as simple as slow wifi... it was a complete exclusion of 55 QUESTIONS it doesn't matter if they were 'experimental and won't affect our grade' or not. The sad reality is; it feels like a lose-lose situation here.
The concerns coming from both ends (whether you had 150 or 205) are completely valid and we are well within our right to ask questions and demand answers. We actually should feel entitled to do so.
I feel the same about the way they reacted over the phone on the day of. We were given the runaround, no accountability was taken, had to beg and plead and call multiple times to speak to someone higher on the totem pole, who still could not acknowledge our concerns.

(Side note; I want to know more about the rationale behind the statement "additional time does not affect performance outcomes" ....ummm okay then, explain to me how my exam grades significantly improved when I used extra time in undergrad? If they stand by this statement, they technically should not allow an 'extra time accommodation' for anyone with this test to begin with. But wait, that would be considered ableist...yikes.
I can fully understand if a student who had 205Q felt jipped on time, compared to a student who had only 150 with the same time limit. And arguments can be made that going into this, we knew there was going to be 205 and we planned accordingly. However, **** hit the fan...and that playing field was no longer level. Just something to think about).

Unless they pull some fast & fancy tricks, and inform us of exactly how they standardize these scores (I'm not getting my hopes up)...this exam cannot be standardized in my opinion. I almost don't want to even say that because if they make us retake it....I will cry.
I will also cry if our score release date is pushed back due to them needing more time to figure it out. I hope & pray that they are working around the clock to make this right.

The trust in the company has been broken. And now we are expected to blindly trust whatever software or algorithm they use to grade & standardize our scores? That's asking alot from students. What do they mean by "psychometrically" ??? So they're just telling us that their interpretation of our performance is more important than our OWN? Are we being gaslit? LOL.
Click to expand...
You're totally right. If "additional time does not affect performance outcomes", then the extra time accommodations are hypocritical. I am totally in favor of extra time accommodations for those who need it, but the allowance of such a thing flies directly in the face of the point they are trying to make. Another thought I have had, they admitted that the 131 students given 150 questions started their test before 8:50 am eastern time. Does that mean that they realized there was an issue and then added the extra 55 questions for those of us that started later in the day eastern time, and anyone who is in a more western time zone? If that's the case, wouldn't it have made more sense to leave the test the way it is with 150 questions for everyone? Definitely would've been easier to "standardize", and probably would've caused less drama. Regardless of how you look at it, this was a massive failure and the NBPME response is inadequate, and frankly inappropriate.
 
APMLEHATER said:
You're totally right. If "additional time does not affect performance outcomes", then the extra time accommodations are hypocritical. I am totally in favor of extra time accommodations for those who need it, but the allowance of such a thing flies directly in the face of the point they are trying to make. Another thought I have had, they admitted that the 131 students given 150 questions started their test before 8:50 am eastern time. Does that mean that they realized there was an issue and then added the extra 55 questions for those of us that started later in the day eastern time, and anyone who is in a more western time zone? If that's the case, wouldn't it have made more sense to leave the test the way it is with 150 questions for everyone? Definitely would've been easier to "standardize", and probably would've caused less drama. Regardless of how you look at it, this was a massive failure and the NBPME response is inadequate, and frankly inappropriate.
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On speculation alone, yes, I think that’s what happened (no way to tell unless they confirm directly).
When I asked them if it was only certain testing centers OR a nationwide issue, she said there was no way to tell yet bc the testing time frame had to run until west coast was finished before they could fully analyze what happened. (talked to the first person around ~1:30pm eastern).
But I know for certain that some people who tested before 9am & had 150 requested the proctors to call Meazure & they said they were aware of the issue + IT dept working on it.
So maybe Meazure was able to correct the issue once those AM students submitted their exams?
No idea.
There are SO many other ways to have gone about rectifying this situation, but we will be speaking in hypotheticals for a while, I fear 🥲
 
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