The PD and clerkship director at my home program are writing me a joint/committee letter and insist it is the equivalent of two SLORs. Although i guess it carries the weight of 2 (having 2 authors) ...i'm doubtful... if a program requires 2 slors i assume they literally mean 2. thoughts?
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I honestly have no idea. You'd probably be best contacting the programs that require 2 SLORs to find out whether they view it as 1 or 2.
just called a res coordinator at another program who said she would bring it to the attn of the PD and that she "thinks it'll probably be ok." she added that they've never gotten a committee letter before....hmmm maybe i should play it safe and hunt down another letter 👎
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I've got my list together! Its looking like 19 programs. How many are you guys planning on applying to? I feel like 19 is a little high but I would only have to fly to 2 of them, the rest I could get to on the train.
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I, too, am taking the train approach. I'm applying to a bunch of East Coast programs, and I prefer the idea of taking the train between Maine, NY, Mass and Penn (assuming i get interviews in all those states) instead of getting stuck at the airport!
Also, I just need to express public delight at the completion of my Personal Statement! ERAS is almost finished! YES!!! 😍
Also, I just need to express public delight at the completion of my Personal Statement! ERAS is almost finished! YES!!! 😍
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Hmpf. I wish I could do the same. I love travelling by train, but I'm in the NE and applying out West.
I've got 22 on the program list right now, but I need to go over it again before I submit. Same with my ERAS, PS, and LORs. I can't wait to get past Step II...
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This was my thinking until I met with my student affairs dean, she explained if a program states "require 3 letters" instead of "At least 3 letters", that means they just want the 3, and if you send more they will think you can't follow instructions. Thought?
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Congrats on the awesome COMLEX improvement! I think you can go ahead and submit your app, because you'll have assigned a slot for that letter, and the programs should know that it's coming.
If you get all nineteen invites, you can always cancel some. I think that's a better problem to have than having too few invites, right?
I would do whatever the program says. If they say they want three, send them three. If it's not clear, ask them if they will accept more.
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I have been working on my list all night... I like to check out all the programs but there are so many it is tough to narrow it down and know which ones will fit me. Does anyone have a system that is working well for you?
That is nice some of you guys can use the train! I am going to be spending a fortune leap frogging from place to place. 👎
Pure Anergy has a good point, I would much rather be selecting which invites I want to accept than praying for more to come through. With that in mind I was thinking closer to 30 but I haven't got anywhere near that many yet.
On a side note, I know I read some study somewhere from a couple years back which reported applicants who ranked 10 programs all matched... Does that sound familiar to anyone else? and if so do you know where I could find it again?
I finished my PE and both step 2's the last few weeks and it is great to be done with those! 😀 Good luck to those still working on them!!!
Gotta run to grand rounds so I don't have time to look for it, but I do remember reading that. 10+ programs = 99% match rate. I'm wondering if that works for DO applicants given that some of the programs I'd potentially be ranking typically only take 1-2 DOs/year. I feel kind of clueless in this whole process.
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I looked at all the states that I would be willing to at least consider and made a list of all the EM programs there. It was about 45 programs. Then I went through and looks at the websites for all of them. After awhile they start to look pretty similar but it's worth knowing who has 6 months of medicine etc.
Also worth thinking about the realities of interviewing. There were a few places that I was initially thinking of visiting but when making my list I realized that I really wasn't willing to make a separate trip to see them. I also crossed off places that were in cities where I had no friends or family there or close by.
It's worth talking to someone in the know at your program (clerkship director, residency director etc) and say "with my scores and knowing me how many programs should I apply to?" 30 could either be too low or too high depending on where you stand.
Also worth thinking about the realities of interviewing. There were a few places that I was initially thinking of visiting but when making my list I realized that I really wasn't willing to make a separate trip to see them. I also crossed off places that were in cities where I had no friends or family there or close by.
It's worth talking to someone in the know at your program (clerkship director, residency director etc) and say "with my scores and knowing me how many programs should I apply to?" 30 could either be too low or too high depending on where you stand.
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There's a really good post by Desperado on this. I linked to it in the new FAQ under Med Students and applying to residencies.
Just as a counter-point, EM is a small world, and if you're halfway competitive, you may get many more (like x2 or x3) as many interviews as you can go on. That's a lot of cancellations. Especially since less competitive programs, who aggressively recruit (because they have to) will respond earlier than more competitive programs who will wait for the Dean's letter (knowing they can make applicants wait and still fill). I've been told it's a little rude to constantly be canceling interviews the moment something better comes along.
The Matchitis surveys (link in my sig) and Desperado's post go over how many programs to apply to too.
I don't know about a study, but if you look up the NRMP Charting Outcomes (google it or look in the FAQ), you'll see a chart of # of matched and unmatched applicants charted against # of interviews. Divide the # of matched into the total of applicants at any given # of interviews to get a percentage. That's your likelihood of matching with that given number of interview. When you get up to 10-12 interviews, your chances of matching get to around 90-95%.
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I was thinking more of turning down interviews without ever scheduling them, not scheduling a bunch of interviews and then withdrawing without going on them because you have better offers coming along.
For the context of this discussion, we should re-emphasize that the number of programs you apply to doesn't matter as much as the number of programs you interview at does. The goal of applying to more programs is to get enough invites to have a good chance of matching. So that's the real issue we're faced with. FWIW, the posts you linked in the FAQs seem to echo the idea that it's better to overapply than underapply. Desperado's post is a perfect example. Even for a very competitive applicant, he recommended applying to 15-30 programs, and he recommended for those of us who are more average to apply to 30-40 programs!
I still think it's better to be surprised by being more competitive than you expected to be and turning down invites, versus being surprised by being less competitive than you expected to be and panicking in November because you don't have enough invites. But I agree with you that it's rude to schedule a bunch of interviews if you aren't serious about going on them, especially if you withdraw at the last minute.
Also, thanks a lot for making that sticky. It's really helpful. 👍
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I completely agree. That's why I did the Matchitis surveys - so that any applicant can plug in their numbers and determine how many apps they need to send out in order to get that magic 10 or 12 interviews.
All in all, probably the best way to avoid this situation is to apply only to programs you're excited about, ones where you can realistically see yourself Matching.
No prob. There's a lot of good information in this forum, and I just put it in one place. It's my OCPD-traits coming out.
I agree that it's a little rude to do so, but I was curious how programs would find out a particular applicant is canceling a lot of interviews? I'm only applying to programs I would be happy to go for residency, but clearly I would rank some higher than others, and even my chair said it's kind of a crap shoot to define a competitive EM applicant since every program may look for a little different "ideal" resident.
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Here's a question. I'm working on my ERAS and for activities, do you just put down the dry explanation that is in your CV or are you guys editorializing at all. Ex. During time period X I did this job which entailed responsibilities A, B and C. Vs. "This job was a fantastic experience because I was able to develop leadership etc etc."
I feel like the latter is more for the personal statement, but what do you think? Are you just copying from your CV?
I feel like the latter is more for the personal statement, but what do you think? Are you just copying from your CV?
D
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I agree - and did basically the same. I feel that if they are interested in learning more about X experience, i'll be asked on the interview trail.
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Hey guys, joining the thread.
Sorry for the beginner question, but I'm having a difficult time understanding all of this.
What's the difference between "submitting your application" and "applying to programs"?
Under the >Application heading, on the right there's an option to "Submit Your Application".
Under the >Programs heading, after you search for programs and they appear under your "Programs applied to" heading, can they see my application?
Basically, what's the order of things to do. From what I can gather it's:
1) Fill out the "Application" and slot "Documents"
2) Select programs and assign documents to them
3) Then "Submit Your Application" from the >Application heading.
What's the timeline for this stuff? Should I "Submit [My] Application" once I fill everything out now? What's the deal with CORD letters that may not be in to my Dean's Office yet? Will they get updated to my application once they come in? Should I "slot" them under >Documents?
Sorry for the beginner question, but I'm having a difficult time understanding all of this.
What's the difference between "submitting your application" and "applying to programs"?
Under the >Application heading, on the right there's an option to "Submit Your Application".
Under the >Programs heading, after you search for programs and they appear under your "Programs applied to" heading, can they see my application?
Basically, what's the order of things to do. From what I can gather it's:
1) Fill out the "Application" and slot "Documents"
2) Select programs and assign documents to them
3) Then "Submit Your Application" from the >Application heading.
What's the timeline for this stuff? Should I "Submit [My] Application" once I fill everything out now? What's the deal with CORD letters that may not be in to my Dean's Office yet? Will they get updated to my application once they come in? Should I "slot" them under >Documents?
I'm reposting my question since I'm applying soon and I've never heard that it's that bad to have too many interview offers.
I agree that it's a little rude to do so, but I was curious how programs would find out a particular applicant is canceling a lot of interviews? I'm only applying to programs I would be happy to go for residency, but clearly I would rank some higher than others, and even my chair said it's kind of a crap shoot to define a competitive EM applicant since every program may look for a little different "ideal" resident.
D
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Nothing formal, but I'm sure attendings from different programs talk to each other about applicants. I would not be surprised if a PD looked at your ERAS, found something he liked, and called one of your SLOR writers to ask about you. Especially if they know each other. At least, that's how job applicants are evaluated in every other profession.
There's a type of applicant that, because of competitiveness of the specialty, has to apply to as many as many programs as they can to ensure a match. That's cool, and as a med school re-app, I can empathize.
But for everyone else, we don't need to send our ERAS to the world, and over-applying just wastes everyone's money and time, both our's and the PD's. My EM advisor was saying to not apply to a huge number of places, just to hit some number. Especially if I wasn't thrilled about possibly going there. For me, I was going to apply to ~2x what my EM advisors, Desperado, and the Matchitis surveys suggested. So I narrowed down my list. If you're applying to a number of programs that your EM faculty thinks is appropriate, and they're all places you want to go to, and then you're solid. 👍
I'm just one guy, one guy who's not gone through this process yet. Let alone successfully. So like anything else, just take it with a grain of salt and do what you think is best.
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This is what I did.
Also, because the CAF is a massive illegible block 'o text, I added headings to subdivide things. If I had a research experience that had some clinical component and I wrote a poster and a pub, I'd do this:
Nothing formal, but I'm sure attendings from different programs talk to each other about applicants. I would not be surprised if a PD looked at your ERAS, found something he liked, and called one of your SLOR writers to ask about you. Especially if they know each other. At least, that's how job applicants are evaluated in every other profession.
That's pretty much what I've been told. If I have a SLOR from PD at Program X then the PD from program Y might call for more information. If I cancel the interview the Program Y PD might mention it to Program X's PD. If people notice a trend that you're canceling interviews left and right, you look cocky.
From what I did on Friday, the application part is kind of separate from the documents section. I filled out and submitted the application and then finished selecting programs, applied to some of the programs, and then assigned documents. You can still upload documents after you submit the application.
If you don't have a LOR yet, you just make a slot for it and then when it comes in it'll be uploaded.
Any residents/attendings have any input on how often this actually happens? If you guess each program offers >120 interviews, that's an awful lot of phone calls for a PD to make. It seems like it'd be more worthwhile for PDs to call other PDs when they're trying to create their rank lists as opposed to just who to invite...
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You guys are really over thinking this. Do you think that programs who might be interviewing hundreds of people are actually going to call around and ask other programs about you because you cancelled an interview with them? Lots of people cancel interviews throughout the cycle, programs realize it's just part of the game. Plus, if you cancel, it probably isn't even noticed by anyone other than the residency secretary who handles that sort of thing.
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What? MS4s neurotically obsessing over the Match? Unpossible!
Hi all! Long time reader, 1st time threader. I thought that this thread was a good idea and lord am I in need of support.
I am an IMG studying at the U of Queensland in Australia but want to come back to the US to do EM, boy am I nervous. My situation is better than some but not ideal: 202/83 on Step 1; 250/99 on Step 2 (this is where I learned about UW); a few US clerkships including one EM Sub-I at a good place; no publications. I don't know how much emphasis will be placed on grades at a foreign school so I doubt that matters.
That Matchitis survey seems to be pretty sweet but I think only applicable to US students and not IMGs?
I think I will be applying quite broadly to maybe 50 (!) residency programs in hopes of getting in somewhere. It's sad to say but the first thing I look at when I visit a program's website is the Residents and what school they trained.
I have already written what I thought was a good PS but now looking at comments, maybe not. Picked a good clinical case that I saw and broke it down into a few different wide aspects of emergency medicine that I like and that I fit into but now not sure if that's the best... I know some people have advised raising red flags in their PS (eg my Step 1 score) but it totally does not fit with the general theme of my PS and feels a bit weird to write it. Have tried customizing it a tiny bit to each program (cuz, hey ERAS allows as many PS as you want) where possible. My goal is to have them all submitted by mid-Sep and then start sacrificing goats with hopes of interviews.
My dream is NY and preferably a 4 year program. I know there has been some debate on 4 v 3 year programs upthread. My two cents is that 4 year is going to offer a lot more training, especially in being a "mini-attending", supervising a whole (area of) a department, plus more time to hone in on U/S and other important skills. I think I may be biased cuz my rotation was at a 4 year program and I was really impressed with the R4s handling the ED.
Also, as far as LORs are concerned, some places say "3 LORs" and some say "At least 3". For ones with "at least", I'm going to send 4 because I have 4 good ones and I want all the boosts I can get!
thanks everyone
I am an IMG studying at the U of Queensland in Australia but want to come back to the US to do EM, boy am I nervous. My situation is better than some but not ideal: 202/83 on Step 1; 250/99 on Step 2 (this is where I learned about UW); a few US clerkships including one EM Sub-I at a good place; no publications. I don't know how much emphasis will be placed on grades at a foreign school so I doubt that matters.
That Matchitis survey seems to be pretty sweet but I think only applicable to US students and not IMGs?
I think I will be applying quite broadly to maybe 50 (!) residency programs in hopes of getting in somewhere. It's sad to say but the first thing I look at when I visit a program's website is the Residents and what school they trained.
I have already written what I thought was a good PS but now looking at comments, maybe not. Picked a good clinical case that I saw and broke it down into a few different wide aspects of emergency medicine that I like and that I fit into but now not sure if that's the best... I know some people have advised raising red flags in their PS (eg my Step 1 score) but it totally does not fit with the general theme of my PS and feels a bit weird to write it. Have tried customizing it a tiny bit to each program (cuz, hey ERAS allows as many PS as you want) where possible. My goal is to have them all submitted by mid-Sep and then start sacrificing goats with hopes of interviews.
My dream is NY and preferably a 4 year program. I know there has been some debate on 4 v 3 year programs upthread. My two cents is that 4 year is going to offer a lot more training, especially in being a "mini-attending", supervising a whole (area of) a department, plus more time to hone in on U/S and other important skills. I think I may be biased cuz my rotation was at a 4 year program and I was really impressed with the R4s handling the ED.
Also, as far as LORs are concerned, some places say "3 LORs" and some say "At least 3". For ones with "at least", I'm going to send 4 because I have 4 good ones and I want all the boosts I can get!
thanks everyone
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Well, luckily for you, there are a lot of 4 year programs in NY. Personally I am much happier being in a very very high volume 3 year program than I think I would have been in a 4 year program. I have no doubt that I will be able to run a busy ED after three years here and if I want further experience, I will do a fellowship afterwards. I applied and interviewed to an equal number of 3 and 4 year programs and thought both would produce a completely capable ED physician. One thing I would look at when considering 4 year programs is how much of that extra time in residency is spent off-service. My own personal opinion is that most off service rotations are much less useful than time spent in the ED (especially ward months)
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How long is the gap between when a program downloads and views your application and when they decide to offer or not offer you an interview? I know the deans letter doesnt come out for 6-8 weeks but I have been told most programs dont wait for nor care much about it. I submitted apps to 23 EM programs today, 13 DO 10 MD. 4 hours later I saw that 14 had already downloaded all my application materials. I know the DO processes is accellerated and some DO EM programs start interviews this week, is it unrealistic to expect to here if they want to interview me or not within the next 2 weeks? My step 2 scores wont be available to ERAS for about another 3 weeks I took the test on 8/23 so they are dowloading my app,Cv, LORs, Comlex step 1 and PS. Thoughts please.
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Just wanted to wish everyone good luck in the ERAS and match process this year! It's a tough process, but totally worth it in the end.
One word of advice that I can give is that if you don't initially get an interview somewhere you really like, don't give up. I did not initially get an interview at my top choice, but (luckily for me) there was a last minute cancellation when the wife of one of the interviewees went into labor. I ended up matching there. 😀
Don't get too discouraged and be yourself.
P.S. For the DO's applying to allopathic programs, EM is typically a very DO friendly field, and there is usually very little discrimination at most programs, so don't feel you need to apply to 2x as many programs. You usually have just as good a chance as your MD counterparts.
One word of advice that I can give is that if you don't initially get an interview somewhere you really like, don't give up. I did not initially get an interview at my top choice, but (luckily for me) there was a last minute cancellation when the wife of one of the interviewees went into labor. I ended up matching there. 😀
Don't get too discouraged and be yourself.
P.S. For the DO's applying to allopathic programs, EM is typically a very DO friendly field, and there is usually very little discrimination at most programs, so don't feel you need to apply to 2x as many programs. You usually have just as good a chance as your MD counterparts.
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Just submitted my ERAS to 30 programs. My wallet could use a little support.
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Just remember the applying to med school days, we paid like $75 a program. In comparison this isn't that bad.
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Submitted!!!! ahhhh, sweet relief. Now to take step two and take off for my aways. As for interview dates.... at the SAEM conference we were told many ED programs like to see the deans letters and traditionally wait longer than other programs to offer interviews. So sit back, relax...... it may be a little while.
Also...... anybody in the Boston area leaving for a rotation in November and want to rent me their room? 😀
Also...... anybody in the Boston area leaving for a rotation in November and want to rent me their room? 😀
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True. In comparison it's cheaper. I'm still dreading paying for these interviews though.
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Whats the earliest anyone has ever heard of being invited to an interview?
A handful of DO programs have already started giving out some interviews.
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Yeah, I heard the DO cycle starts earlier. What about MD programs though?
Well rank lists are submitted 1/28 for DO and 2/23 for MD. Then the matches are 2/14 and 3/14. So I'd guess they're running about a month behind?
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Some programs have began retrieving applications apparently. Did not expect it so soon. Wonder if that will be reflected in their timeline for interview invites.
Almost all my programs have downloaded my app by the second day, half were downloaded by the first day. I think this is normal compared to past years, and it doesn't necessarily have correlation with the invitation timeline, but I'm hoping they're early this year!
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So I just heard from a friend who successfully matched last year that I should submit my application and start applying to programs, even though my LoRs aren't scanned into ERAS yet. They say that programs are updated when application details are updated, and then review them once complete - what do you guys think?
Also, I'm getting 4 LoRs total and planning to assign them to most programs. However due to some timing issues, it might end up that the 4th one never gets done. Do you think programs would wait until all assigned LoRs are scanned in? Or once they have 3 will I get considered?
Also, I'm getting 4 LoRs total and planning to assign them to most programs. However due to some timing issues, it might end up that the 4th one never gets done. Do you think programs would wait until all assigned LoRs are scanned in? Or once they have 3 will I get considered?
Getting an interview depends on how competitive you are as a whole not just the numbers of LORs you submitted- though the letters are considered almost as important as the interview for matching probability. That being said, I guess three letters would be enough to get you an invitation. No PD would wait for the last letter if s/he thinks you are a good candidate for the program. You know that you need SLORs, not LORs in order to apply EM programs,right ?
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Fair enough. What I meant was more if I have allocated 4 LoRs but only 3 are there yet, would a program see my application as "incomplete" or would they just go off once their specific program's application requirements are met?
I do realize I need SLORs but due to major timetable issues, I've not got any time to do away rotations until February and March. I know it severely limits my chances but I'm not going to NOT apply because of it. If I end up with no interviews then I'll apply again next year, hopefully with two US rotation under my belt (that is if I can ever get these sorted...)
Not every program requires SLORs. Programs also vary in the number of SLORs they require. From my observations programs clearly state what kind of letters they require and how many.
I think a program would send you an interview once you meet the requrements for the program, regardless of your aplications "complete" or incomplete" status. Programs send out invitations before the Step 2 scores are submitted, sometimes even before the Dean's Letters are submitted. So it wouldn't hurt to think the "4 LoRs but only 3 are there yet" issue like this. Would it ? Anyone with more info on this, please feel free to jump in.
I didn't know that, I thought every EM program requires SLOR(s). Sorry for misinforming.🙁
