pathsun2019
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US MD, steps 236/239, pass CS second try, applied 50, only 1 IV. Failing CS hurts, Should I add more lower tier programs now before it's too late?
Apply more?
- Thread starter pathsun2019
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No you will likely get >30 interviews from those 50
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deleted314957
If you graduate with a U.S. MD you will get a pathology residency somewhere
(assuming you don’t have a warrant out for you, etc.)
(assuming you don’t have a warrant out for you, etc.)
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I dont remember what the board tests are scored out of but arent your scores really solid? I dont remember what I got but I think it was in the 230s which I thought was good enough at the time... CS is clinical skills testing of some sort? Why the f would Pathology programs care about failing that? How is that hurting?
Pathology programs should be looking most importantly at SOCIAL MATURITY above almost anything. I can train someone has an IQ barely above 115 to competently sign out general surg path, but I can never teach them how to interact with their fellow humans in a consistently professional manner. The bar for trainability in medicine is super super low folks. Even highly skilled tasks in health care are trainable to humans with borderline above average G scoring. Curing cancer, organic chem synthesis research, biophysics research etc. sure IQ>145 will be put to good use. Ironically most higher IQ folks are driven to $$$ and away from full use of their G-factor hence why I think modern research is nowhere near the explosive discovery phase we had say during WW2.
IQ assessment which amost standardized testing is centered around is generally important in an abstract sense but it is nowhere near as hypercritical as most think given the human skill "holes" the current pathology workforce suffer from.
Tell programs you are not coming there to cure cancer but to have a successful professional career in pathology, a career so successful that the program will point to YOU as an example of what their faculty are capable of.
Pathology programs should be looking most importantly at SOCIAL MATURITY above almost anything. I can train someone has an IQ barely above 115 to competently sign out general surg path, but I can never teach them how to interact with their fellow humans in a consistently professional manner. The bar for trainability in medicine is super super low folks. Even highly skilled tasks in health care are trainable to humans with borderline above average G scoring. Curing cancer, organic chem synthesis research, biophysics research etc. sure IQ>145 will be put to good use. Ironically most higher IQ folks are driven to $$$ and away from full use of their G-factor hence why I think modern research is nowhere near the explosive discovery phase we had say during WW2.
IQ assessment which amost standardized testing is centered around is generally important in an abstract sense but it is nowhere near as hypercritical as most think given the human skill "holes" the current pathology workforce suffer from.
Tell programs you are not coming there to cure cancer but to have a successful professional career in pathology, a career so successful that the program will point to YOU as an example of what their faculty are capable of.
D
deleted314957
Good point there. I believe the problem with social maturity is that it cannot be
taught to someone who is 25 with 22 years of structured education behind them. You’re gonna have it or you’re not.
Those folks are not going to stand out in medicine (or law, high executive
position, etc.) Right up there is judgement, which, I believe, can be taught.
It just takes years and many pathologists do not get it. I always strove to demonstrate both- don’t really know how I did.
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Just looked it up - US first time pass rate for CS (yes, clinical skills, which is graded pass/fail) was 97% in 2017. The impression that I got while taking it (admittedly 8-10 years ago) was that it was nearly impossible to fail short of doing something completely asinine like repeatedly punching one of the standardized patients in the face. Or maybe forgetting to wash your hands in every single room. Unless OP has a very good excuse (like death of a close family member the day before or perhaps punching the standardized patient was in self defense), it would be a big red flag for me. Admittedly, I felt the test was unrealistic and stupid at the time and I agree that interviewing and examining patients is not critical to practicing pathology. However, reading through a test prep book to learn what the expectations for the encounters are and then performing them is a pretty low bar. It would seem unlikely to me that someone who couldn't do that successfully would have the aforementioned critical social skills (or emotional intelligence, social maturity, whatever one prefers to call it).
For your sake, OP, I hope that you interview strongly. If you think you would perform well (would be perceived as interested, intelligent and hard-working without being obnoxious), an "audition" rotation/elective in an achievable/middle tier path department this fall could help too. I think 50 apps is pretty broad - I would wait another few weeks to a month before sending out any more if I were in your shoes.
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I think the pass rate is lower now like ~92% because med students a couple of years ago tried to start a petition to get rid of the test because it is absurd and everyone passes. So they responded by just failing more people.
I'll admit that I failed CS the first time. I'm a native English speaker, washed my hands, and didn't punch anyone. Basically I failed because I did an H&P like I was taught in school: start open-ended then focus more and more as you develop a differential. Despite going through a review book I somehow missed that what you really need to do is bomb them with lots of yes/no questions that may or may not be relevant to make sure you tick off as many checkboxes as possible. Instead of doing an H&P you pretty much do a giant ROS with as many physical exam maneuvers as you can squeeze in and some counseling right before time expires.
pathsun2019
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For future person in the same boat reading this, don’t want to leave you at my first post. One week and one day into this cycle, I’ve gotten 8 invitations, all solid programs (my opinion). I haven't applied more. BTW, thanks everyone for the input.
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deleted314957
See! What did we tell ya!
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For everyone applying: there is from my best estimate and general gestalt of the last 2 decades ZERO impact of the relative prestige of a pathology training program on lifetime earnings. The only advantage I can possibly agree with in terms of a going to a "top tier" (and I dont think I even know what that is anymore..) residency is a career in academics.
In terms of earnings I would probably agree, although I don't really know enough to say either way. That said, from my experience looking for a job nine months ago having a well-known name on your CV is a huge help, at least for the first job. Hardly anyone knows my residency, but my fellowship had a big name attached and that was what people gravitated to. Once someone has some actual experience signing out, the effect probably decreases, but they'll have more options starting out.
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deleted314957
L.A., You are right on with that impression. I was one of a number of partners who interviewed prospective associates and all of us, to a person, really did not
care where someone did residency. As a matter of fact, a few of us had
some distain for lots of the coastal elites. A disproportionate number of them seemed to have s***ty people skills. As has been beaten into the ground here by me and others (for you young’uns looking for work), we want to hire folks who are
affable ( regular old nice folk with a firm hand shake and will look you in the eye with a smile), available ( in the sense that you are eager to join the team now and do whatever the hell you are asked to do- no primadonnas or some kid who thinks she’s gods gift to gyn path and will do little else) and able.(in my world that is defined as one who could walk into a community hospital setting and do pretty much everything. You don’t need heme boards to look for Fe, granulomas,
mets, etc. You should be comfy with any cyto and essentially all surg path with the obvious exceptions. The clinical lab CANNOT be a black box to you.)
Of course, we all recognize the existence of a learning curve and it is anticipated.
Asking for help, an opinion, etc is fine- within reason. And that is where common sense comes into play.
Sorry about the screed, but I truly believe this is the key to success in pathology or, probably, most any other. There is no mystery and there is no NAME place you can go to that will replace the above info.
care where someone did residency. As a matter of fact, a few of us had
some distain for lots of the coastal elites. A disproportionate number of them seemed to have s***ty people skills. As has been beaten into the ground here by me and others (for you young’uns looking for work), we want to hire folks who are
affable ( regular old nice folk with a firm hand shake and will look you in the eye with a smile), available ( in the sense that you are eager to join the team now and do whatever the hell you are asked to do- no primadonnas or some kid who thinks she’s gods gift to gyn path and will do little else) and able.(in my world that is defined as one who could walk into a community hospital setting and do pretty much everything. You don’t need heme boards to look for Fe, granulomas,
mets, etc. You should be comfy with any cyto and essentially all surg path with the obvious exceptions. The clinical lab CANNOT be a black box to you.)
Of course, we all recognize the existence of a learning curve and it is anticipated.
Asking for help, an opinion, etc is fine- within reason. And that is where common sense comes into play.
Sorry about the screed, but I truly believe this is the key to success in pathology or, probably, most any other. There is no mystery and there is no NAME place you can go to that will replace the above info.
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I agree. A big name place makes finding your first job much easier (at least based on my expierence). But as your career progresses, it is less important.
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deleted314957
Please remember my perspective as a “hiring partner” was in the early 90’s
I would call/email the program coordinators for all the programs you haven't heard from and reiterate your interest. You've probably been filtered out on their first or second pass, and at this point you're likely relying on interview cancellations or other unexpected openings. Contacting coordinators might bump you to the top of the list as a fill-in.
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