Applying at a young age and its effect on med admission..

[sarahg]

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Do you not see the hypocrisy in your own posts? How is it silly to prevent 25+ from entering but completely acceptable to hold the perspective that young people should not be admitted?

Adcoms have a responsibility not just to the individual applicants to evaluate them fairly but also to the medical community as a whole and also to its patient base. That's why it's okay that URM status can help someone out so much -- not because they deserve extra consideration, but because there are many people out there who want doctors of their own culture but can't find them, and the adcoms have a responsibility to answer that shortage. And in my admittedly less-than-informed opinion (just like all of our opinions here are uninformed if we are premeds and not med students or doctors), the last thing the workforce needs is more people who know little of the world outside academic institutions, research laboratories, and hospitals. Reading the medical student forums here, talking to medical students, and picking up on common knowledge, it seems like there is a lot of unprofessional behavior directed towards med students and residents that would never fly in any other profession. And talking to people in general, it seems that a lot of them have problems relating to doctors and feel like doctors are elitist or have difficulties relating to "real" people. I happen to be of the opinion that lots of exposure to the world outside medicine could help with both of these problems.

Even if you get through college in 2 or 3 years and manage to pick up all of the academic knowledge and clinical experience of someone who took 4-5 years, you probably haven't been holding down jobs, doing lots of non-medical volunteering, majoring in non-premed subjects, spending time traveling or working full time or other activities that expose you to people of all ages and different walks of life, etc. To me, that's a negative. Even if someone is 22, if their course of study and all of their volunteer work and ECs are medicine-related, that would be a negative to me. Your identifiability with your patients affects your effectiveness as a doctor, especially if you go into a primary care field (because people are more likely to follow your orders if they like you and feel like you can understand them), and the more diverse your experiences the more people you will be able to identify with.

Luckily to young applicants and more traditional applicants, there are also lots of adcom members who respect the premed-since-birth path and are wary of nontrads. I don't have a problem with their viewpoint either, it takes a variety of perspectives to find the appropriately diverse mix of students. But the adcoms are essentially choosing the healthcare workforce available to all Americans and so they can't just look at the perspective of "Who would do best in medical school?" but also the perspective of "Who would Jane Do prefer as her doctor?" That's where biased, seemingly unfair decision-making has to come in and that's my justification for why it's okay to discriminate against people under 21 but not people over 25. That, and they might receive a better education when they're older because patients are more receptive to them. Like I said, I don't care what he got on the MCAT, I'm not letting a teenage boy give me a gyn exam. It could definitely affect a student's education if a considerable number of patients feel that way. I don't know anyone who would feel uncomfortable with a student because he or she was over 25, however (unless the student was elderly and then they probably wouldn't be admitted either).

 

[starfishprime]

Speaking from my experience and that of my friends, I can say there is a HUGE difference in maturity (ON AVERAGE) between 19 and 21. Take it or leave it, that's been what I've seen.

You've failed to control your variables. Nobody is claiming that 19 y/o sophomores are as mature as 21 y/o seniors, and yet those are the people you know.

It should be completely obvious that a 19 y/o who has been on his own for 4+ years is as mature as a 22 y/o for the same length of time. Apparently, it's not.

 

[AdmiralChz]

It should be completely obvious that a 19 y/o who has been on his own for 4+ years is as mature as a 22 y/o for the same length of time. Apparently, it's not.

Does that imply a 15 y/o entering college student? Interesting, how common is that?

And no, you're point is not "obvious" to me at all.

 

[Bollywood Junkie]

I think this thread is actually getting quite repetitive.

I'm not going to quote sarahg's post, but while you do have a point regarding becoming more aware of different cultures, I don't think age is a major factor. Most students won't gain that much experience in diversity until they enter college. However, whether that point is at 18+ or at <18, the experience is the same. And by graduating early in college, the 0.5 year for me and, I'm sure, the 1 year for others isn't that life-altering as well.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I still maintain that age won't affect either experience or quality of care. Yes immature 18-20 year olds exist, as do some 21+ year olds (actually, quite a few). But the ones responsible enough to formulate a competitive medical school application cannot be looked down upon because of their age.

And the URM bit is a different story...

 

[immunoguy1]

You young people need to realize why adcoms are wishy washy when they see a 19 or 20 year in front of them. If the school were to admitt you at the age of 19, you have basically committed the rest of your life to being a doctor. MOSt 19 year olds have no idea what kind of committent it really is. That is a large reason why you don't see many young people in medical school. Just watch match list videos on YouTube and you will see that most students are well into their later 20's upon graduation. I have never seen one really young looking person in any match list video of any medical school on YouTube.

I also think the young folks on this thread need to watch the biographies on PBS right now to get a taste of what is coming. Most of the doctors being showed on PBS are divorced, addicts, screwed up personal lifes, etc.

And no, young children should not go to medical school at 19 or younger. That's just too young. Even at the age of 20 we are pushing it. The issue is not that these young people are not smart enough to handle everything, but are they emotionally mature enough? I HIGHLY doubt any 19 year old is emotionally mature enough to handle what is going to be coming at them.

Here is the biggest question: What 19 year old KNOWS what committment they are getting into? Shadowing for a few hours here and there is not enough.

I don't know that I agree with your statement that probably no 19 year olds are emotionally mature enough to handle medical school. Maybe a lot of people have not experienced major emotional upheavels in their lives, but some of us have. It may be few and far between, but some people are exposed to events in their lives that really give them the tools they need to cope mentally and emotionally for not just medical school, but for medicine in general - although no matter what the experiences or emotional maturity, I don't think anyone can be fully prepared for what medicine throws at you.

 

[SiR99]

I'm not really sure why people are arguing about age here.

Odds are against you when your younger, this is NOT an opinion, this is a FACT, go ask any Adcom at your local medical school. This has been told to me by an Adcom.

Now, i know alot of people dont want to waste two years just to be older to apply, and I agree with that. But the fact is that age matters and its just a real world fact so stop arguing about how mature a 18-19 year old is, because it makes you look even more like a little kid.

18-19 year old is NOT as mature as a 22-23 year old, even with your emotional experiences, you have gone through those experiences, but you are most likely not mature enough to handle those problems completely on your own without major family, friend or any other kind of support.

 

[neil100]

Adcoms have a responsibility not just to the individual applicants to evaluate them fairly but also to the medical community as a whole and also to its patient base. That's why it's okay that URM status can help someone out so much -- not because they deserve extra consideration, but because there are many people out there who want doctors of their own culture but can't find them, and the adcoms have a responsibility to answer that shortage. And in my admittedly less-than-informed opinion (just like all of our opinions here are uninformed if we are premeds and not med students or doctors), the last thing the workforce needs is more people who know little of the world outside academic institutions, research laboratories, and hospitals. Reading the medical student forums here, talking to medical students, and picking up on common knowledge, it seems like there is a lot of unprofessional behavior directed towards med students and residents that would never fly in any other profession. And talking to people in general, it seems that a lot of them have problems relating to doctors and feel like doctors are elitist or have difficulties relating to "real" people. I happen to be of the opinion that lots of exposure to the world outside medicine could help with both of these problems.

Even if you get through college in 2 or 3 years and manage to pick up all of the academic knowledge and clinical experience of someone who took 4-5 years, you probably haven't been holding down jobs, doing lots of non-medical volunteering, majoring in non-premed subjects, spending time traveling or working full time or other activities that expose you to people of all ages and different walks of life, etc. To me, that's a negative. Even if someone is 22, if their course of study and all of their volunteer work and ECs are medicine-related, that would be a negative to me. Your identifiability with your patients affects your effectiveness as a doctor, especially if you go into a primary care field (because people are more likely to follow your orders if they like you and feel like you can understand them), and the more diverse your experiences the more people you will be able to identify with.

Luckily to young applicants and more traditional applicants, there are also lots of adcom members who respect the premed-since-birth path and are wary of nontrads. I don't have a problem with their viewpoint either, it takes a variety of perspectives to find the appropriately diverse mix of students. But the adcoms are essentially choosing the healthcare workforce available to all Americans and so they can't just look at the perspective of "Who would do best in medical school?" but also the perspective of "Who would Jane Do prefer as her doctor?" That's where biased, seemingly unfair decision-making has to come in and that's my justification for why it's okay to discriminate against people under 21 but not people over 25. That, and they might receive a better education when they're older because patients are more receptive to them. Like I said, I don't care what he got on the MCAT, I'm not letting a teenage boy give me a gyn exam. It could definitely affect a student's education if a considerable number of patients feel that way. I don't know anyone who would feel uncomfortable with a student because he or she was over 25, however (unless the student was elderly and then they probably wouldn't be admitted either).

so, supposedly you think the admissions committee are doing medicine and society a HUGE favor by accepting 23-24 yrs. old and beyond that age. well guess what. why is this not much of a matter in other countries?

Are people in other countries somehow intrinsically different from Americans? Should they also be afraid of their 24 yr. old doctors? This is ridiculous. You guys always have the same old argument against accepting young students in med school? Not enough experience, can't possibly know the real world, must be immature, blah blah and blah. Well, if you actually really get to know one of these young students, you will find that your silly assumptions are dramatically far from reality.

Besides I really cannot wrap my mind around how most 19,20 yr olds are drastically different from say 23-24yr. olds. The students in the first age group are going to have the same college experience as the second group. Taking years off after college doesn't really make you that much mature. Also, the "clinical experience" that one takes years off to get is really not worth much. You don't have any responsibilties and are treated just as a regular pre-med. I have a problem with med schools demanding hard-core clinical experience when your options are freakin' limited very much. How in the heck can you ask for clinical experience before going to med school. In fact, this is the reason why they are going to med school. Students will get enough experience while in med school. You just get to follow the tails of docs like a little puppet before med school. I think most med schools need to get a reality check of their whole admissions process and reconsider a lot of things.

Young people should be encouraged and not be slapped down. Apparently, many admcoms don't see it this way. I mean the entire world does it differently. I guess it's just the way how America operates. Always, have to be doing opposite of what the entire world does. maybe something else. who knows.

About that whole gyn exam business....i just have to say wow. i highly doubt that people actually care about the age of their docs when most of them have serious mucopurluent discharge, yellow, or watery discharge. They want someone who can actually get the job done accurately and swiftly. Or want someone to do a proper exam checking for dysplasia, etc. etc. Do you look at the age of your docs when you go to them? If you get assigned a doc who happens to be very competent, compassionate turn him/her down just because he/she is 24 yr.old. I mean come on. Get real here. The last thing you want to be thinking about as a patient is the doc's age when you are having extreme chest pain. You would just want an excellent doc who knows what he/she is doing.
so, in the end it really doesn't matter what the age of the doctor is. Remember Patient's medical care always comes first, which includes diagnosing, and treating with compassion and care.

 

[neil100]

I'm not really sure why people are arguing about age here.

Odds are against you when your younger, this is NOT an opinion, this is a FACT, go ask any Adcom at your local medical school. This has been told to me by an Adcom.

Now, i know alot of people dont want to waste two years just to be older to apply, and I agree with that. But the fact is that age matters and its just a real world fact so stop arguing about how mature a 18-19 year old is, because it makes you look even more like a little kid.

18-19 year old is NOT as mature as a 22-23 year old, even with your emotional experiences, you have gone through those experiences, but you are most likely not mature enough to handle those problems completely on your own without major family, friend or any other kind of support.

Haha. We know that odds are against young people. That's not the point of this thread.
We are talking about why that shouldn't be the case. Young people (19-20yr. olds) need not be scrutinized much more than 23-24 yr. olds. the discussion is something along those lines.

Age is not a contributing factor when it comes to maturity. This is such a cliche and mundane/common thinking. Maturity and character develop more on the basis of background, culture, family, events, your surroundings etc. How can you be someone completely different in 3-4 years? I just don't see how that can be.

 

[SiR99]

Haha. We know that odds are against young people. That's not the point of this thread.
We are talking about why that shouldn't be the case. Young people (19-20yr. olds) need not be scrutinized much more than 23-24 yr. olds. the discussion is something along those lines.

Age is not a contributing factor when it comes to maturity. This is such a cliche and mundane/common thinking. Maturity and character develop more on the basis of background, culture, family, events, your surroundings etc. How can you be someone completely different in 3-4 years? I just don't see how that can be.

Its hard to explain but once you reach around 22-23 you will be aware of it. During these few years you will change and start to set into and finalize your own personal character/personality in which you will most likely have for the rest of your life.

People dont really change much once they get older, how you are is how your going to be. But from your teens to early/mid 20's that is not necessarily true, your personality is still developing and can change.

 

[futureboy]

Its hard to explain but once you reach around 22-23 you will be aware of it. During these few years you will change and start to set into and finalize your own personal character/personality in which you will most likely have for the rest of your life.

People dont really change much once they get older, how you are is how your going to be. But from your teens to early/mid 20's that is not necessarily true, your personality is still developing and can change.

If you are 18-20 and disagree with this post, please print the post, put it in a safe place, and read it again on your 25th birthday. You'll get it then, and will agree 100 percent. Each and every one of you. Guaranteed.

 

[travelingdoc]

If you are 18-20 and disagree with this post, please print the post, put it in a safe place, and read it again on your 25th birthday. You'll get it then, and will agree 100 percent. Each and every one of you. Guaranteed.

👍

I totally agree - I have taken two years out and feel much more prepared for life as a physician now than I did before. I know what it's like to go through life without insurance, to have to make ends meet, to live by myself without family, all these things that many, definitely NOT all, premeds don't know. Nobody (at least I'm not) is saying that 19 year old med students are incapable of being good doctors. They're definitely smart enough. They'll probably be even more clinically capable from a science standpoint when they match with their elder peers, as they say 22 is the ripest age for the mind. But, and this is a big BUT, being a doctor isn't ONLY about knowing what all med school has to offer. You might know the cure for obesity, but if you can't build a rapport with your patient, you won't get them into the gym, off their butt. These lessons in interacting with people from all walks of life come with experience, with age. I'm sure 95% of people who are on the other side of the fence will agree to this.

 

[DwyaneWade]

We have a couple people in our class who started med school at 17,18,19,20, 21. None of them have had any issues.

 

[jkm07]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/08/25/cnna.young.med.student/index.html

Read about Sho Yano, who was the youngest medical student ever accepted by the University of Chicago Medical School in 2003.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...sity-chicago-medical-degree-21-144127049.html

The legendary Sho Yano graduates from Pritzker. Congrats and good luck!

 

[Starlightembers]

get some actual non-college life experience if you're going to delay applying. ...i imagine the true child prodigies probably lead pretty sheltered lives and might have trouble relating to patients and seeming mature enough to inspire confidence.... But i can see some valid reasons for discriminating against the very young....

i would apply later for the sake of both personal growth ....despite how mature every 18 year old thinks they are, someone who is 22 has a significant edge in life experience and such. ...

i agree 100 percent that there is a significant amount of personal growth and maturing that happens between 18 and 22.....you have to be able to relate to people, and know what questions to ask (and not to ask) and how to ask them. This comes with life experience.

... the last thing the workforce needs is more people who know little of the world outside academic institutions...you probably haven't been holding down jobs... or other activities that expose you to people of all ages and different walks of life, etc. ...

8-19 year old is not as mature as a 22-23 year old...but you are most likely not mature enough to handle those problems completely on your own without major family, friend or any other kind of support.

I realize that this is an older thread that has long since retired; however, as it has recently been "bumped" and the topic is one that I feel strongly about, I wanted to comment. I hope the higher ups on SDN deem this to be OK.

I will be a younger applicant. I entered college at 16 with a semester or two of college credit (not dual enrollment -- my school rarely offered that and, when they did, it was to seniors)and, this Summer, I am taking extra courses. Assuming things stay on track, I will be 17 when I apply and, if I am accepted, 18 when I matriculate.

I am emancipated. I live by myself in a studio apartment. I pay my own bills through part-time jobs -- or, over the Summer, full-time jobs -- and social security survivor benefits, which I am incredibly appreciative to receive; my parent does not contribute a cent, nor do I have savings to assist me. I have been homeless, residing on friends' couches and, at times, reaching out to youth shelters. I work for what I do have.

I have a wonderful group of friends encompassing those of all ages. I have hobbies (art, writing, music, web and graphic design, etc); I have passions; I go to concerts and other events. Many of these interests surround academics and are quite intense (neuroscience, mental illness, mental health advocacy, health policy, social justice, what have you) and I admit to being hyper-focused on going to medical school (MD/PhD) at times; but a "pre-med bot", I am not. In general, I see myself as a happy, quirky, well-rounded person who just happens to be incredibly, incredibly passionate about a few, specifics things. Most around me would agree, methinks.

I am also not a sheltered kid that was the product of overprotective and competition-hungry parents. Nor was I "pre-med since birth" or a type-A student who wanted to get everything done quickly. Quite the opposite, actually. In high school, I was barely passing (straight C average! ) in a school that was underfunded, overcrowded and not challenging at all (becoming chronically ill didn't help). So, I dropped out and started college via an early college program.

This is just how things have turned out and, from where I stand today, I can honestly say that I think that has been pretty well, everything being considered.

All of that said, I do not see how a few years of backpacking through Europe is going to greatly enhance my maturity, world view and ability to relate to others. Not that I know everything and don't have any maturity to gain -- I absolutely do and I grow more each day -- but I do not feel I am greatly disadvantaged in the expirence department compared to your typical, upper-middle class, 21/2 year old medical school applicant or, for a more percise comparison, your typical 18/19 year old rising sophmore pre-med student.

Yet, despite all of this, I face the assumption -- in job searches, volunteer positions, everyday conversations -- that, just because my birth certificate has 1996 on it, I am somehow less equipped than the average college student. This is based on an assumption and a steryotype; not a reality.

Of course, that may be accurate for many -- perhaps most -- adolescents and that is fine; but these absolute, always-like-this statements irk me. I realize there is no way around it; but I am frustrated and tired of people making negative assumptions about me simply because of my age.

Alright, everyone, venting is over. Thanks for the oppertunity.

 

[Verum]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...sity-chicago-medical-degree-21-144127049.html

The legendary Sho Yano graduates from Pritzker. Congrats and good luck!

Pediatric neurology? Why not pediatric neurosurgery?

//Asian dad.