Applying to MD while starting PA school this fall

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NSxortho

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A Canadian friend of mine has been accepted to PA school but she wants to continue applying to MD this cycle. She has a 3.98 cGPA, 3.96sGPA, 513 MCAT. She is wondering whether MD schools will frown upon her being in first year of PA school and willing to leave it for MD. Would it be possible for her to give a compelling reason for wanting to switch to MD? She is considering not even applying at the moment as she thinks MD schools won't look past her being in PA school.
 
What about all the biology majors who bailed on biology?
Doesn't apply (if you are attributing this statement to most medical students majoring in Bio) because most of this cohort actually graduated and got their bachelors. The equivalent would would be, finishing PA school and only THEN applying for med school
 
EDIT: The majority of this post is based off a misunderstanding.

Not applying would be a mistake. This isn’t your run of the mill 498, 3.2 student who did PA as a back up and is thinking they want to do medicine now.

This is a competitive candidate not far removed from undergrad who happens to already have solid clinical experience above many of her peers (because PA schools require it). I personally disagree with Goro. I don’t think the prevailing concern for adcoms will be her packing her bags to go back to PA school. Yes, I know Goro is an adcom and I’m some random guy on the internet but adcoms have differing viewpoints too and one problem with SDN is when we take the outspoken pessimistic viewpoint and apply it generically.

Now’s the best time for her to do it. Later it may be more difficult. What I’m more concerned about in this case is why she is thinking of not applying? Is she on the fence? That to me is a big red flag that no one tells you but you have to realize on your own. If your heart isn’t 100% set on medicine, don’t do it. Don’t worry about what adcoms may say or think.
 
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Doesn't apply (if you are attributing this statement to most medical students majoring in Bio) because most of this cohort actually graduated and got their bachelors. The equivalent would would be, finishing PA school and only THEN applying for med school
I didn’t interpret it as all the bio majors who majored in it and went to medical school. I thought they were referring to bio majors who didn’t get in and said $&@/ amino acids, prokaryotes, and this ****. I’m going to find a job in sales, etc. and move forward.
 
I didn’t interpret it as all the bio majors who majored in it and went to medical school. I thought they were referring to bio majors who didn’t get in and said $&@/ amino acids, prokaryotes, and this ****. I’m going to find a job in sales, etc. and move forward.
Still don't think it's a good comp though because those jobs can always fill in the position whenever said person quits/ leaves. For med schools and PA schools, that seat is essentially lost if someone leaves the program (unless they decide to accept a transfer, but there is then the issue of that other school being down 1 student).
 
Still don't think it's a good comp though because those jobs can always fill in the position whenever said person quits/ leaves. For med schools and PA schools, that seat is essentially lost if someone leaves the program (unless they decide to accept a transfer, but there is then the issue of that other school being down 1 student).
EDIT: A majority of this post was based off a misunderstanding.

You’re right that the analogy breaks down if you analyze it technically like that. I just think it highlights the sentiment that in life, people do what’s in their best interest and here on SDN, we all uphold pretty dogmatic viewpoints sometimes.

I am willing to bet that if we polled all the adcoms for all medical schools with just the stats/story she presents (not this thread), the majority would feel this student would be a favorable candidate just given the basic numbers and general PA-> MD route.

Now, let me be clear that something seems a rye with the whole considering not to apply business and maybe there’s something missing but take the stats and profile above and that’s a solid MD applicant in most states. I’m confused as to why we are discouraging her from applying.
 
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Bad idea. Why did she apply to PA schools if she wants to be a doctor? How do we know that she will bail on medicine like she's bailing on PA???

what kind of logic is that? If someone changed careers from computer programming to medicine, did they bail on their computer science degree? If they left an MBA program would they be "bailing on business"?

The logic here is clear, every year you delay starting your career you lose out on an incredibly large amount of money long term in salary + capital gains. Every applicant should be working on alternative career paths when applying to medical school. The sad part is that stuffy medical school administrators cannot grasp this fact of life.
 
Maybe it’d be better for her not to matriculate into PA school if she wants a chance at medical school. If she got into PA school, she likely has 1000+ clinical hours, so that leaves the MCAT, along with the 150ish hours of nonclinical service and 50 hours of shadowing left if she doesn’t have those already.

Granted, PA is not as great a career as MD/DO by any means but your friend has a chance to be a healthcare provider in 2-3 years if she so chooses as it is, so she has multiple options.
 
Maybe it’d be better for her not to matriculate into PA school if she wants a chance at medical school. If she got into PA school, she likely has 1000+ clinical hours, so that leaves the MCAT, along with the 150ish hours of nonclinical service and 50 hours of shadowing left if she doesn’t have those already.

Granted, PA is not as great a career as MD/DO by any means but your friend has a chance to be a healthcare provider in 2-3 years if she so chooses as it is, so she has multiple options.
EDIT: A majority of this post is based off a misunderstanding.

OP mentioned that their friend is already in PA school and that she has already taken the MCAT and scored in the 88th percentile which is often the average MCAT at many instate MD schools. I also disagree with the notion that matriculating into PA school somehow is some red flag for MD applications.

Also it’s pretty late even for my time zone. I didn’t even realize this is probably best answered in the premed SDN forum where they can judge OP harsher.
 
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I agree with Goro on this one. Someone applying to med school while already in PA school screams “I don’t know what I want to do with my life.”

This isn’t a borderline applicant who hedged their bets and ended up in a PA school with second thoughts. This is an applicant who could’ve most likely matriculated to an MD school and chose otherwise. They chose another career path and are trying to bail immediately.

I’d recommend your friend not start PA school and apply to MD.
 
I agree with Goro on this one. Someone applying to med school while already in PA school screams “I don’t know what I want to do with my life.”

This isn’t a borderline applicant who hedged their bets and ended up in a PA school with second thoughts. This is an applicant who could’ve most likely matriculated to an MD school and chose otherwise. They chose another career path and are trying to bail immediately.

I’d recommend your friend not start PA school and apply to MD.
I’m going to walk back all the statements I made above.

I realize now I significantly misread the situation. OPs friend is not a first year PA student but is yet to start which makes a big difference here and makes what everyone I’m disagreeing with (Goro, CF, London) make more sense. I apologize to all of you and OP for creating confusion. I initially mistook Goro’s post to mean that OPs friend is not a competitive candidate and it was a “bad idea” to apply to medical school which I interpreted as typical SDN premed neuroticism. Now I see he meant it was a bad idea to matriculate into PA school which is a obviously completely different.

If we can all agree she’s competitive for medical school and should apply for that this year and just not matriculate into PA school, I think that’s good advice. I still think she will be judged more on her profile than her matriculation into PA school and still get interviews even if she chooses to stay on that path but yeah, if she chooses to stay matriculated while applying to medical school, that will be the central focus of her application and a potential stumbling block at every point of the review process which she can completely avoid by just not matriculating.

In regards to hedging bets with the PA route, PA school is not going anywhere and tons are likely rejected from medical school. Now, deferring a PA acceptance is something I’m not certain about but I don’t think it’s an insurmountable issue if you choose to reapply to PA school if you don’t get in later.
 
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OP's friend should not start PA school at all. This is akin to a nursing major applying to medical school before even starting their career as a nurse. Why are they bailing on a career before even starting it? It raises a questions about the applicant and what their true motivations and goals are. It sounds like the applicant is trying to hedge their bets, which is not a good look. If OP's friend's ECs are up to par, they have a competitive application in terms of GPA/MCAT. I would recommend that they do not start their PA program and apply MD/DO if that's what their real goal is. If it doesn't work out they can always apply PA later, this is a much better than being indecisive and hedging your bets.
 
I’m going to walk back all the statements I made above.

I realize now I significantly misread the situation. OPs friend is not a first year PA student but is yet to start which makes a big difference here and makes what everyone I’m disagreeing with (Goro, CF, London) make more sense. I apologize to all of you and OP for creating confusion. I initially mistook Goro’s post to mean that OPs friend is not a competitive candidate and it was a “bad idea” to apply to medical school which I interpreted as typical SDN premed neuroticism. Now I see he meant it was a bad idea to matriculate into PA school which is a obviously completely different.

If we can all agree she’s competitive for medical school and should apply for that this year and just not matriculate into PA school, I think that’s good advice. I still think she will be judged more on her profile than her matriculation into PA school and still get interviews even if she chooses to stay on that path but yeah, if she chooses to stay matriculated while applying to medical school, that will be the central focus of her application and a potential stumbling block at every point of the review process which she can completely avoid by just not matriculating.

In regards to hedging bets with the PA route, PA school is not going anywhere and tons are likely rejected from medical school. Now, deferring a PA acceptance is something I’m not certain about but I don’t think it’s an insurmountable issue if you choose to reapply to PA school if you don’t get in later.
I like the idea of deferring matriculation. Are they obligated to disclose that they’re holding a PA school acceptance on AMCAS? I don’t think so. Their MD/DO application cycle will likely be successful, but PA school is a silver lining just in case. After all, medicine is just another career. Some people want to get going with their lives (whereas I only started MD school after 3 consecutive application cycles).
 
what kind of logic is that? If someone changed careers from computer programming to medicine, did they bail on their computer science degree? If they left an MBA program would they be "bailing on business"?

The logic here is clear, every year you delay starting your career you lose out on an incredibly large amount of money long term in salary + capital gains. Every applicant should be working on alternative career paths when applying to medical school. The sad part is that stuffy medical school administrators cannot grasp this fact of life.
Your apples to oranges analogy is really off base. This isn't a matter of changing Majors, this is starting a professional school and then deciding to bail on it.

This is why we, at the admissions level, look at this more seriously.
 
Your apples to oranges analogy is really off base. This isn't a matter of changing Majors, this is starting a professional school and then deciding to bail on it.

This is why we, at the admissions level, look at this more seriously.

Goro, there are plenty of people who bail on PA school and successfully matriculate into medical school. Right now I do completely agree though that if OP has the luxury of not going to PA school it would be best so as to avoid this being the focus of her application where she’ll have to explain it everywhere she goes.

I think the more pressing question is why OP is hesitant to apply to MD/DO schools. I call BS on her stated reasoning that she is worried won’t get in. If she puts out a broad application she most likely will get in. Meanwhile if she is so worried about not getting in, why is not she worried about how PA school matriculation looks to medical school? That to me makes me think she wants to be a PA more than a MD/DO deep down.
 
This isn't a matter of changing Majors, this is starting a professional school and then deciding to bail on it.

Neither of my examples involved changing majors. I offered an example of changing a career (from computer science) and changing a professional school (MBA).

Furthermore, I know of at least 3 people at my program that have changed from NP/PA and legal programs.
 
this. PA is facing some serious saturation, much moreso than MD/DO. The PA job market is getting very tight
From what I’ve heard, people can find PA jobs but they may have to move a lot or to a less desirable area, while MDs have more location flexibility. I don’t know how COVID has affected things though. If I couldn’t attend medical school for whatever reason, I’d be open to PA school.
 
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Goro, there are plenty of people who bail on PA school and successfully matriculate into medical school. Right now I do completely agree though that if OP has the luxury of not going to PA school it would be best so as to avoid this being the focus of her application where she’ll have to explain it everywhere she goes.

I think the more pressing question is why OP is hesitant to apply to MD/DO schools. I call BS on her stated reasoning that she is worried won’t get in. If she puts out a broad application she most likely will get in. Meanwhile if she is so worried about not getting in, why is not she worried about how PA school matriculation looks to medical school? That to me makes me think she wants to be a PA more than a MD/DO deep down.
I agree. She likely has multiple requirements for medical school fulfilled if she got into PA school. I think she’s more attracted to the PA role in terms of what she wants to do, but is interested in being the woman in charge also, which is why she doesn’t want to give up MD/DO yet.

I know a pre-PA guy who is taking the MCAT just to prove that he could be a doctor if he wanted to.
 
I agree. She likely has multiple requirements for medical school fulfilled if she got into PA school. I think she’s more attracted to the PA role in terms of what she wants to do, but is interested in being the woman in charge also, which is why she doesn’t want to give up MD/DO yet.

I know a pre-PA guy who is taking the MCAT just to prove that he could be a doctor if he wanted to.

Right. The thing though is that what separates MDs/DOs from PA is not only scholastic achievement, but the 9-5 mentality PAs expect as opposed to leaving when the job is done. The training pathways are completely different and you could be a PA with greater academic ability than a physician (those definitely exist) but because you chose not the pursue the MD/DO, you don’t have the knowledge or training to do MD/DO work.
 
I agree. She likely has multiple requirements for medical school fulfilled if she got into PA school. I think she’s more attracted to the PA role in terms of what she wants to do, but is interested in being the woman in charge also, which is why she doesn’t want to give up MD/DO yet.

I know a pre-PA guy who is taking the MCAT just to prove that he could be a doctor if he wanted to.
Even if a pre-PA, pre-Nursing, pre-whatever, or trump scored a 528 that doesn't mean "They could be a doctor". It might mean they could get into medical school - and even that's not guaranteed no matter how high the stats. Let's not conflate getting into medical school with becoming an actual practicing doctor.

An extreme example to make a point: To me, a 493/2.8 who successfully made it out of a Caribbean school, matched and finished residency is ACTUALLY a doctor. On the other hand, someone who had a 4.0/515 but decided to pursue another career has no right to say "I could have been a doctor". Everyone might as well walk around and say "Well... I could have been president."

This is the same nonsense when some med students say "I could have majored in computer science and made $300k right out of college".... sure.....

Not sure how far along you are in school/training but in every school there's a good chunk (3-10%) of students who never become doctors for a variety of reasons (personal problems, academic issues, integrity/cheating, health problems), even if they had stellar scores before/during med school.
 
Every applicant should be working on alternative career paths when applying to medical school.

Absolutely, especially given the annual acceptance rate hovers around ~40%. I'd love to see the stats on former nurses/nursing students, PA's, dental students, lawyers, etc. etc. who fail to finish med school in contrast to their more traditional peers. As for the OP's post, does she even need to disclose she's planning on attending PA school? It sounds like she wouldn't actually start classes until after she submits amcas. I think it would make more sense to defer but I don't see why she'd need to disclose prior to submitting, especially if she herself hasn't made up her mind yet.
 
Absolutely, especially given the annual acceptance rate hovers around ~40%. I'd love to see the stats on former nurses/nursing students, PA's, dental students, lawyers, etc. etc. who fail to finish med school in contrast to their more traditional peers. As for the OP's post, does she even need to disclose she's planning on attending PA school? It sounds like she wouldn't actually start classes until after she submits amcas. I think it would make more sense to defer but I don't see why she'd need to disclose prior to submitting, especially if she herself hasn't made up her mind yet.
She would need to send her PA school transcripts after acceptance, and announce an intent to attend PA school when she submits AMCAS and AACOMAS.
 
In theory, she could’ve applied to MD and PA school at the same time, but LoR requirements would prevent that for either school.
 
Choose now. The relative certainty of being a PA a couple years from now or the lower likelihood of being admitted to medical school and, if admitted, a very high likelihood of being an MD 5 years from now. It would be a waste of time and money to do one year of PA school and drop out to pursue med school. It hurts the PA school's metrics (proportion who graduate) and hurts the person who didn't get a seat because someone who did not intend to graduate took it. Furthermore, if the medical schools get wind of the PA matriculation, they may choose not to poach an active PA student, thus making the PA completion a foregone conclusion.

The time to choose is now. Don't matriculate into a program you don't intend to finish.
 
I agree with @LizzyM and I think it's selfish to take away a seat from someone who's more committed to becoming a PA, not to mention burning $30k or whatever PA schools for a year.
 
A Canadian friend of mine has been accepted to PA school but she wants to continue applying to MD this cycle. She has a 3.98 cGPA, 3.96sGPA, 513 MCAT. She is wondering whether MD schools will frown upon her being in first year of PA school and willing to leave it for MD. Would it be possible for her to give a compelling reason for wanting to switch to MD? She is considering not even applying at the moment as she thinks MD schools won't look past her being in PA school.
Sounds like she's made her decision for MD. Why not discontinue PA school, spend her year doing worldly things she won't get time for again and apply MD? This way she won't face the hassle of dealing with the scrutiny of closed-minded and unrealistic adcoms.

Anyway this would be my advice. I am a current general surgery chief resident in NYC going into plastics while pursuing my MBA. I've spent enough time with multiple adcoms to know how they can be. Happy to discuss further over a zoom meeting, email, or phone if you want to message me.
 
Unless OP can not see doing PA as a long term career, then you are already in so just go through with it. Apply to MD/DO school and find a good explanation given the good stats.

I go my Engineering degree, had a fantastic job lined up right b/f graduation, bailed and went to med school. Heck, I jumped majors 6 times in college.

These people are 20 yr olds. Not everyone knows what they want to do at 40 lest 20. If I were Adcom, I could care less. Now if they were serial jumpers, then that would be a different story.
 
For what it’s worth, i was in a similar situation as OP’s friend. Spent undergrad wavering back and forth between PA vs MD/DO. I ended up applying and getting accepted to PA school in my first gap year. At the same time I was working my first job in healthcare (and first job ever at 23 as being a college athlete left zero time to work). I learned very quickly that I wanted to know the most that I could about the people I cared for/didn’t like answering directly to others. I personally couldn’t have learned that about myself without having that job, and after only a few months it became very clear that I had made a mistake applying to PA school. I ended up giving up my seat in the cohort before I started school. It took me two application cycles, but I’ll be starting at an MD school in a few weeks. I have genuinely never once regretted dropping out of PA school, even after getting rejected in my first MD cycle.

I would certainly not recommend starting PA school if you are interested in applying to medical school. It’s a complete waste of money and waste of a position in the class. I would encourage your friend to do some soul-searching and really reflect on what is MOST important to them in life. Learning more about myself as an adult away from college and actually working with patients allowed me to confirm that being the absolute best I can be at something by way of acquiring the most knowledge and training possible would always bring me more satisfaction than career flexibility/getting done with school faster would. Good luck to your friend!
 
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Adcom’s thoughts on the pros/cons of a PA student applying for medical school aside - why does this friend want to spend tens of thousands of dollars for a year of school that’s going to go to waste?
Exactly. Plus, if OP doesn't get into med school and decides to continue with PA school then they'll resent this decision and hate their jobs 5-10 years from now when they see their physician colleagues have more responsibility, knowledge, compensation, etc.

It's better to drop PA school and go 110% after MD/DO EVEN if it takes 2 cycles.
 
A Canadian friend of mine has been accepted to PA school but she wants to continue applying to MD this cycle. She has a 3.98 cGPA, 3.96sGPA, 513 MCAT. She is wondering whether MD schools will frown upon her being in first year of PA school and willing to leave it for MD. Would it be possible for her to give a compelling reason for wanting to switch to MD? She is considering not even applying at the moment as she thinks MD schools won't look past her being in PA school.
I would recommend finishing the PA program and working a couple years and saving for med school tuition. They could work in med school/moonlight as a first year resident as a PA as wel. Less student loan debt this way.
 
Adcom’s thoughts on the pros/cons of a PA student applying for medical school aside - why does this friend want to spend tens of thousands of dollars for a year of school that’s going to go to waste?

It only goes to waste if she is admitted to medical school...
 
Hard time understanding the advice on this page. Why take a sure thing and then pursue a less sure thing at the same time, just so you have a great career even if it turns out you weren't a good MD candidate overall? Because that's what a reasonable/smart person would do.

How do we know she won't bail on medicine to pursue something else like she did on PA school? To pursue what? Super medicine? An even more superlatively terminal degree in the same field? Ridiculous argument.

Your friend may have red flags we don't know about, but no MD is going to question why you wanted to be and MD instead of a PA. And they serve on admission committees as well.
 
Why would she even mention that she got accepted into PA school in the first place? Especially if she was accepted in Canada.
Do med schools really conduct such an extensive background check as to find out she was accepted to PA school? Seems unlikely to me.
Does the AMCAS app even asks if you were accepted to another professional school (I am aware it asks whether you attended a school and/or have a degree)?
Do admission officers routinely ask applicants "hey, were you accepted to any other prof school"? Never heard of such thing.
Would it be that bad to simply not mention anything if you are not asked nor required to disclose it?
 
I agree with Goro on this one. Someone applying to med school while already in PA school screams “I don’t know what I want to do with my life.”

This isn’t a borderline applicant who hedged their bets and ended up in a PA school with second thoughts. This is an applicant who could’ve most likely matriculated to an MD school and chose otherwise. They chose another career path and are trying to bail immediately.

I’d recommend your friend not start PA school and apply to MD.

^ This. Agreed.

On another note, I’m wondering if OP’s Canadian friend is worried about establishing residency & other arrangements if s/he/they were to get into an MD/DO school. Maybe that could be contributing factor to what’s stopping them? I’m just genuinely curious what else could hold them back, because those look like stats worth applying with (whether they’re an international/domestic student).

But it’s all speculation from here why they think they’d be better off dipping their toe in PA school rather than go for this next med school application cycle.
 
Medical school isn’t expensive enough, might as well add an unnecessary year of tuition AND keep someone out of that spot that actually wants to be a PA.

OTH, if someone wants to be a pilot, truck driving school is a logical intermediate step, so going to PA school is a great idea to get your MD.

😉
 
Why would she even mention that she got accepted into PA school in the first place? Especially if she was accepted in Canada.
Becauses the application requires a listing of all schools attended (or attending). Failure to list it would be falsification of the application and grounds for dismissal.

There might be a loophole if she were to apply before matriculating at the PA school.
 
I know folks who applied PA and DO/MD and MHA (CAHME accredited) and chose MHA over a DO acceptance and got rejected at PA and MD program. So why not? I thought that was really bad investment if you were going to go MHA in the first place.....
 
IMO this makes your friend shi**y because they are willing to take a spot from a deserving pre-PA and almost certainly lied to their PA school about wanting to be a PA vs MD.

Sure, lots of doctors and people in general are like this, but if im on an adcomm, I'm telling everybody else that I don't want this person when we have other equal applicants
 
IMO this makes your friend shi**y because they are willing to take a spot from a deserving pre-PA and almost certainly lied to their PA school about wanting to be a PA vs MD.

Sure, lots of doctors and people in general are like this, but if im on an adcomm, I'm telling everybody else that I don't want this person when we have other equal applicants
It can be tough for people to know what they want to do with the rest of their lives and making the choice to pursue either profession requires a lot of investment both personally and financially. OP’s friend needs to take some time to figure out what they want vs throwing themselves full force into something that they’re unsure of.
 
IMO this makes your friend shi**y because they are willing to take a spot from a deserving pre-PA and almost certainly lied to their PA school about wanting to be a PA vs MD.

Sure, lots of doctors and people in general are like this, but if im on an adcomm, I'm telling everybody else that I don't want this person when we have other equal applicants

Oh please, I sure hope you didn't write on your application that you are "passionate about primary care and helping people" before matching into radiology 4 years later. Pretty "sh1tty" for stealing that spot.
 
Oh please, I sure hope you didn't write on your application that you are "passionate about primary care and helping people" before matching into radiology 4 years later. Pretty "sh1tty" for stealing that spot.
I'm an M4 going psych which was always the plan, including in my interview and app.

I also agree that people lying about primary care, underprivileged medicine, etc to gain admission isn't fantastic. I don't quite get your point. The rigid rules of admission into medicine sometimes select for people willing to bend facts (taking on easy research projects, hyping up volunteering). I think this is not great and am a big proponent of the more recent push to select for applicants from diverse backgrounds and those with humanities educations.

Personally, if you are so curious, I try very hard not to mislead as you just suggested. And I certainly would not take a spot in a program planning on dropping if i found something better. While I certainly do not think the world is black and white or that right is always easy to tell from wrong, this time right is easy to tell from wrong.
 
Hi all, new PA student starting my first year this Fall. I can say from interviewing that PA adcoms will often ask "Why PA instead of MD/DO?" (Especially if the program is affiliated with a med school). It's definitely an overall very competitive process with programs accepting as little as 20 (although some will accept a 100 or so). I personally feel in my opinion if their heart lies with being an MD, then that's the route they should pursue rather than starting a PA program by throwing tuition at them for a year only to drop out.

Also, I would also assume it's safe to say some med school adcoms may ask why they bothered starting PA school if they knew they wanted to be a doctor. So that's another thing to consider when deciding on whether to start PA school.
 
Becauses the application requires a listing of all schools attended (or attending). Failure to list it would be falsification of the application and grounds for dismissal.

There might be a loophole if she were to apply before matriculating at the PA school.
Yes, you’re correct. From the post, I understood that she’s still not started PA school but will this fall. She could send applications to medical schools this summer before matriculating with the PA school.
 
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