Arbitrary grading, what do?

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foulknave

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Hey guys,

Well this is utter nonsense. I just checked my grades for the semester and got a B in a bio course that I was sure I had done really well in. I truly feel that this is not right but I want to proceed with caution. So I need your advice.

Now before you guys jump to conclusions, hear me out. I got A's in all my other classes this semester - all BCPM. In fact, I've gotten all A's in BCPM since freshman year. My BCPM coursework is not minimal either as I'm a biology and chemistry double major at a top 10 state school. My only A-'s are in totally random classes that I took for fun: nonlinear dynamics and spanish linguistics.

Despite my previous grades, I don't think I got overconfident this semester. I was actually really interested in this class and I definitely did more extra reading than I needed to (just for the sake of learning). I thought my performance in this class was one of my best. If anything, I was worried that I would get a B in one of my other classes which were more demanding and difficult. I spent less time on each of those classes though, because I was more interested in the bio course. I went to office hours frequently and contributed to class discussions.

He never established clear guidelines for the course. He never told us what each assignment was worth, what the learning goals were, etc. No grades were ever handed back during the course. Looking back, this should have been a serious warning sign, but I remained optimistic that the professor knew what he was doing. It certainly seemed that I was doing extremely well relative to my classmates. On a regular basis, my peers sought my help in understanding major concepts. In my class presentations, the professor always appeared to be pleased with my work. He never criticized any of my work but he was very critical of the work of most others. On several occasions, he seemed downright furious with others, even verbally attacking them in front of the class.

It now seems highly likely that the professor did not grade these presentations and assignments. The guy is really old and maybe he couldn't remember my name. I think my work in this class was excellent by any reasonable measure, no kidding. I know that a single B probably won't even matter for my med school chances (it might even help if there's some vendetta against perfectionists). Even so, it is downright dishonest. This undermines the academic integrity of the school. I feel that I can't just let it be, at least not yet.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that this is all just a clerical error and I really, really hope it is. This class is actually an extremely high A class, and I feel like a sucker for giving a crap if it never even mattered. Can you guys advise me on how I should approach this situation? I would really appreciate it. When I speak with the professor, I want to be prepared for whatever his response may be. I know professors deal with whiny pre-meds all the time and I don't want to come across as one.

Thanks
 
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I kinda skimmed through that but did you not see your own test scores? I'm assuming that is how most grades are determined.
 
I've gotten all A's in BCPM since freshman year.

I know professors deal with whiny pre-meds all the time and I don't want to come across as one.

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It seems very strange to me that a course would even be offered without a syllabus/marking scheme, and that neither you nor your classmates tried to clarify the issue...
 
First, if this is legitimate, ask the professor, if they can't fix it ask the dean. If they won't change it and your grades are as good as you say they are, then just because you don't have a 4.0 doesn't mean you won't get into medical school. Good luck!🙂
 
in this case, its probably best that you do become one of those types of premeds if you absolutely believe that you did well.
 
I would just email him or go to his office hours and ask what you're grades were for everything. I think if you approach him with the fact that you felt like you were doing very well, so you were surprised by the final grade, you won't come off as whiny. It's happened to me a couple of times where my grade was lower than expected- sometimes it was due to a calculation error and was corrected, other times it was due to arbitrary grading and wasn't changed. I wouldn't worry myself with going to the dean and causing problems, especially if your sGPA is as high as you say- one B will not hurt you when applying 🙂
 
I kinda skimmed through that but did you not see your own test scores? I'm assuming that is how most grades are determined.
Indeed, there were no tests and no grades were ever given to us during the semester.
 
It seems very strange to me that a course would even be offered without a syllabus/marking scheme, and that neither you nor your classmates tried to clarify the issue...
A few students did complain about this, but this type of class structure seemed to be what he was going for. I wasn't too concerned at the time, since I was doing the work. This class is very high A, about 70%. Most of the class knew that and were not very worried. Now it seems that it's just arbitrary, maybe just a dice roll to see who gets a B.
 
Can you pinpoint an exam that you might have done relatively poorly on? If so, then you can email your professor asking to meet with him so that he can explain to you what you did wrong, and say that you're concerned about not making the same mistakes again. That way you come across as someone who is actually interested in learning (which you said you are) and lessens the chance that you'll be perceived as that pre-med.

Although your GPA won't take that big of a hit, I think it is unfair for you to not get a grade you deserve if the professor made a careless error.
 
Just out of curiosity, what Bio course was it exactly?

Don't you have scores posted online (for a top 10 school i would expect so)?

My personal advice, email the prof. ask him if the grade you received was accurate. If he says it is, follow up by asking what your scores were for every assessment(hw/exams etc.) and ask if you can see them. If not then if you are really concerned go to the dean, because you are paying tuition and are in your right 🙂 That's a aggressive suggestion though... you'll make the right choice for yourself.

But like someone above said, the fact that a class has no syllabus of any sort is ridiculous!!😱
 
I would just email him or go to his office hours and ask what you're grades were for everything. I think if you approach him with the fact that you felt like you were doing very well, so you were surprised by the final grade, you won't come off as whiny. It's happened to me a couple of times where my grade was lower than expected- sometimes it was due to a calculation error and was corrected, other times it was due to arbitrary grading and wasn't changed. I wouldn't worry myself with going to the dean and causing problems, especially if your sGPA is as high as you say- one B will not hurt you when applying 🙂
You have a very good point there. I don't want to escalate this too much, especially because I'm getting an LOR from another biology professor.
 
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You got a B, obviously the professor didn't grade any of the assignments. Better take it up with the dean.
 
Just out of curiosity, what Bio course was it exactly?

Don't you have scores posted online (for a top 10 school i would expect so)?

My personal advice, email the prof. ask him if the grade you received was accurate. If he says it is, follow up by asking what your scores were for every assessment(hw/exams etc.) and ask if you can see them. If not then if you are really concerned go to the dean, because you are paying tuition and are in your right 🙂 That's a aggressive suggestion though... you'll make the right choice for yourself.

But like someone above said, the fact that a class has no syllabus of any sort is ridiculous!!😱
It was an upper level physiology course.

Sadly, not all professors post scores online. I honestly don't see a valid reason for not posting grades for assignments. Which leads me to think that he might not have graded any assignments at all.

Thanks for the helpful advice. If it turns out that he did not grade certain things, I think my only choice will be to appeal to the dean.
 
It's annoying when professors say "yes there is a curve, but we will not give out the ranges for grades under any circumstances so don't even ask!" (literally had a professor say this in an email for our o-chem class) Makes me think that they don't exactly follow their own curve...
 
It's annoying when professors say "yes there is a curve, but we will not give out the ranges for grades under any circumstances so don't even ask!" (literally had a professor say this in an email for our o-chem class) Makes me think that they don't exactly follow their own curve...

I think this is very common in upper level courses. I've had some professors explain their grading scale, others simply say "no curve." Then the average test grade is a 40 and he responds with "no curve, but extra credit, +5 points because I said so." That was the main method of grading for one of my courses. He posted our points earned online, but it told us nothing in the end. Most of the class was at like 60 %, but in the end these grades magically changed to B/C's. I had an 85% going into the final and got an A, but we never really knew how we were doing, just how we were doing compared to our friends. I guess this style is perfect for quantum mechanics (p. chem II) though, because in my professor's own words, "we know nothing."
 
maybe you can say something along the lines of "I'm sorry I didn't meet your expectations for an A in this class. I really did enjoy the class and learned a great deal. I was hoping I could ask you where I had gone astray. I would really like to improve my grades in future classes."

I think it's inappropriate to ask for a higher grade and could get you in trouble if you don't tread carefully. Just try and determine what caused you to get the B instead. Hopefully the teacher will see that you did not deserve the B he gave you.

I understand it's highly frustrating taking classes where you don't know where you stand.
 
Hey guys,

Well this is utter nonsense. I just checked my grades for the semester and got a B in a bio course that I was sure I had done really well in. I truly feel that this is not right but I want to proceed with caution. So I need your advice.

Now before you guys jump to conclusions, here me out. I got A's in all my other classes this semester - all BCPM. In fact, I've gotten all A's in BCPM since freshman year. My BCPM coursework is not minimal either as I'm a biology and chemistry double major at a top 10 state school. My only A-'s are in totally random classes that I took for fun: nonlinear dynamics and spanish linguistics.

Despite my previous grades, I don't think I got overconfident this semester. I was actually really interested in this class and I definitely did more extra reading than I needed to (just for the sake of learning). I thought my performance in this class was one of my best. If anything, I was worried that I would get a B in one of my other classes which were more demanding and difficult. I spent less time on each of those classes though, because I was more interested in the bio course. I went to office hours frequently and contributed to class discussions.

He never established clear guidelines for the course. He never told us what each assignment was worth, what the learning goals were, etc. No grades were ever handed back during the course. Looking back, this should have been a serious warning sign, but I remained optimistic that the professor knew what he was doing. It certainly seemed that I was doing extremely well relative to my classmates. On a regular basis, my peers sought my help in understanding major concepts. In my class presentations, the professor always appeared to be pleased with my work. He never criticized any of my work but he was very critical of the work of most others. On several occasions, he seemed downright furious with others, even verbally attacking them in front of the class.

It now seems highly likely that the professor did not grade these presentations and assignments. The guy is really old and maybe he couldn't remember my name. I think my work in this class was excellent by any reasonable measure, no kidding. I know that a single B probably won't even matter for my med school chances (it might even help if there's some vendetta against perfectionists). Even so, it is downright dishonest. This undermines the academic integrity of the school. I feel that I can't just let it be, at least not yet.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that this is all just a clerical error and I really, really hope it is. This class is actually an extremely high A class, and I feel like a sucker for giving a crap if it never even mattered. Can you guys advise me on how I should approach this situation? I would really appreciate it. When I speak with the professor, I want to be prepared for whatever his response may be. I know professors deal with whiny pre-meds all the time and I don't want to come across as one.

Thanks

I've had classes like this. I usually really enjoy them - I (and most students) get an A with minimal stress. More than likely, going in and talking with him about your performance will get you an A. Since there are no clear guidelines/syllabus, you'd have some room to talk. See what his rationale is. Maybe it's class participation?

Btw, at my Uni, a professor can get in trouble for not providing feedback throughout the semester, or syllabus with standards for evaluation.
 
i honestly can't understand why they can't give a specific curve in the syllabus on the first day of class. If they've been teaching the course for any length of time, then they know pretty well what the averages will be for every exam and can plan accordingly. in my "weed-out" courses the expectations were pretty clear and you pretty much always knew where you stood, it was very humane....
 
i honestly can't understand why they can't give a specific curve in the syllabus on the first day of class. If they've been teaching the course for any length of time, then they know pretty well what the averages will be for every exam and can plan accordingly. in my "weed-out" courses the expectations were pretty clear and you pretty much always knew where you stood, it was very humane....

Agreed. This is especially true for the "weedout classes" since their sample size is huge, so the impact of random variance in the different sets of students each year will be minimal.

In most of my curved classes, we were given an estimate of which scores correlate with which grades partway through the class.
 
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It seems very strange to me that a course would even be offered without a syllabus/marking scheme, and that neither you nor your classmates tried to clarify the issue...

This.

I think the most annoying thing about whiny premeds is they wait until AFTER they receive their grades. This really should have been something that was cleared up before.

Sure, you could ask why you got a B. And if it was a mistake, then it can be fixed. But beyond that, I wouldn't push it much. Just let it go.
 
It's annoying when professors say "yes there is a curve, but we will not give out the ranges for grades under any circumstances so don't even ask!" (literally had a professor say this in an email for our o-chem class) Makes me think that they don't exactly follow their own curve...

I think this is very common in upper level courses. I've had some professors explain their grading scale, others simply say "no curve." Then the average test grade is a 40 and he responds with "no curve, but extra credit, +5 points because I said so." That was the main method of grading for one of my courses. He posted our points earned online, but it told us nothing in the end. Most of the class was at like 60 %, but in the end these grades magically changed to B/C's. I had an 85% going into the final and got an A, but we never really knew how we were doing, just how we were doing compared to our friends. I guess this style is perfect for quantum mechanics (p. chem II) though, because in my professor's own words, "we know nothing."
Who does this stuff? If I'm going to be taking a course blind and won't know if A) there is a 90% cutoff for an A and no curve or B) a curve and it'll end up being a 15% range or C) there's a curve and only 5% of the class will get an A etc., that's absolutely insulting and I would either take up this lack of transparency with the department or drop the course.
 
This class is actually an extremely high A class
What does that even mean?

At any rate, I'm calling BS. There should have been a syllabus. If there wasn't, I can't imagine that all the other students would just sit there like idiots for the entire semester, not knowing how the class is graded.
 
Our university has strict guidelines on instructors making a syllabus. I couldn't imagine getting through a course without one.
 
Who does this stuff? If I'm going to be taking a course blind and won't know if A) there is a 90% cutoff for an A and no curve or B) a curve and it'll end up being a 15% range or C) there's a curve and only 5% of the class will get an A etc., that's absolutely insulting and I would either take up this lack of transparency with the department or drop the course.

I agree with the idea, but at the same time, not much for me to do/say. We were given a syllabus, and told no curve would be given with a 90% cutoff. But he wasn't the type of professor who would fail 3/4ths his class (actually the man is very nice and brilliant, but quirky). Also, knowing about the politics in the department, no use trying to take up the grading issue with anyone. The prof is liked and tenured, therefore, his class is untouchable. I honestly think the best way to describe his final grade is a "pseudo"-straight curve by giving out tons of extra credit for quite frankly, breathing.

Not much for me to do other than go with the flow in a course that is required and only offered once a year. My only ability was to make sure I outperformed my coursemates.

Another fun issue about grading is that the syllabus states "subject to change." Which means if a professor is unhappy about the grade distribution, he will change the grade scale/method. Again, the only thing to do is make sure overall you outperform your coursemates.
 
Who does this stuff? If I'm going to be taking a course blind and won't know if A) there is a 90% cutoff for an A and no curve or B) a curve and it'll end up being a 15% range or C) there's a curve and only 5% of the class will get an A etc., that's absolutely insulting and I would either take up this lack of transparency with the department or drop the course.

This basically describes every engineering course I've ever taken.
 
This basically describes every engineering course I've ever taken.

Ditto. 'Grades may be adjusted to fit prior performance' was considered generous at GT... and these were classes with like a 2.7 average.
 
I agree with the idea, but at the same time, not much for me to do/say. We were given a syllabus, and told no curve would be given with a 90% cutoff. But he wasn't the type of professor who would fail 3/4ths his class (actually the man is very nice and brilliant, but quirky). Also, knowing about the politics in the department, no use trying to take up the grading issue with anyone. The prof is liked and tenured, therefore, his class is untouchable. I honestly think the best way to describe his final grade is a "pseudo"-straight curve by giving out tons of extra credit for quite frankly, breathing.

Not much for me to do other than go with the flow in a course that is required and only offered once a year. My only ability was to make sure I outperformed my coursemates.

Another fun issue about grading is that the syllabus states "subject to change." Which means if a professor is unhappy about the grade distribution, he will change the grade scale/method. Again, the only thing to do is make sure overall you outperform your coursemates.
And that's why I hate this, it has nothing to do with measuring your ability in the subject.
This basically describes every engineering course I've ever taken.
I would have changed majors.
 
What does that even mean?

At any rate, I'm calling BS. There should have been a syllabus. If there wasn't, I can't imagine that all the other students would just sit there like idiots for the entire semester, not knowing how the class is graded.

I actually had a class this past semester that had no syllabus. And it sucked. The professor actually turned in grades late while I sat there and refreshed my transcript like every minute waiting to see a disaster pop out. Being that out of control was nerve-wrecking, and I'll never take another class without a syllabus again.

I also hate this tenured BS. We pay thousands of dollars for an education, and we have no say in how a professor runs his/her class. I get the feeling that when a class has a tenured professor that it will end up being more of a headache than the quality of education you'd be expecting to have. Politics. Oh well, I guess you adapt and move on.
 
I actually had a class this past semester that had no syllabus. And it sucked. The professor actually turned in grades late while I sat there and refreshed my transcript like every minute waiting to see a disaster pop out. Being that out of control was nerve-wrecking, and I'll never take another class without a syllabus again.

I also hate this tenured BS. We pay thousands of dollars for an education, and we have no say in how a professor runs his/her class. I get the feeling that when a class has a tenured professor that it will end up being more of a headache than the quality of education you'd be expecting to have. Politics. Oh well, I guess you adapt and move on.

Me tooooo. My school gave tenure out to one guy after ONE semester of teaching. Its ridiculous.
 
so to summarize you took a class that had no exams where you thought you would get an easy A, knew from day 1 that it was graded subjectively, got zero feedback throughout the semester and never bothered to ask for any (even though your primary concern from day 1 was your final grade) and just went ahead and assumed you were the top student in the class (because you have a humongous ego)

....you're going to LOVE 3rd year of med school lol
 
I actually had a class this past semester that had no syllabus. And it sucked. The professor actually turned in grades late while I sat there and refreshed my transcript like every minute waiting to see a disaster pop out. Being that out of control was nerve-wrecking, and I'll never take another class without a syllabus again.

I also hate this tenured BS. We pay thousands of dollars for an education, and we have no say in how a professor runs his/her class. I get the feeling that when a class has a tenured professor that it will end up being more of a headache than the quality of education you'd be expecting to have. Politics. Oh well, I guess you adapt and move on.

Tenure is needed to protect teachers from bitchy students that can't handle the fact that they did not earn an A.

A few bad apples get protection from tenure, but overall I am glad we have it.
 
so to summarize you took a class that had no exams where you thought you would get an easy A, knew from day 1 that it was graded subjectively, got zero feedback throughout the semester and never bothered to ask for any (even though your primary concern from day 1 was your final grade) and just went ahead and assumed you were the top student in the class (because you have a humongous ego)

....you're going to LOVE 3rd year of med school lol


This.
 
Tenure is needed to protect teachers from bitchy students that can't handle the fact that they did not earn an A.

A few bad apples get protection from tenure, but overall I am glad we have it.

I agree, but the problem with tenure is the politics involved. Sometimes it comes just because the dept. head and prof are best buds.

With that said, it is needed because of students. Just accept the fact that a prof is going to be hard on you. Rather they go to the dean complaining that a professor is too hard, or runs his/her class wrong. It's annoying when the students cause a class to be taught at a lower level.

As for understanding material versus outperforming your classmates, realistically it should be one and the same. Unless you are being a "gunner," it is perfectly possible to help your coursemates while kicking their butts in a class because the material makes more sense to you. Look at it this way, right now, we all are competing with one and another to get into medical school. Yet we are being friendly about it and providing advice. Same should go for classwork. We will always be compared to our competition.
 
I'd suggest you get used to it, because you are totally going to hate clinical grades in medical school.

lol. But if it denys him access.... which i doubt if hes doing well in all of his other grades. One B is a silly thing to make a thread about. Move on OP, everything will be ok.
 
A few students did complain about this, but this type of class structure seemed to be what he was going for. I wasn't too concerned at the time, since I was doing the work. This class is very high A, about 70%. Most of the class knew that and were not very worried. Now it seems that it's just arbitrary, maybe just a dice roll to see who gets a B.

I'm not too surprised that many of you have neglected to read this before posting and have made your own assumptions. Maybe I could have been more clear. However, I do appreciate those of you who have offered thoughtful advice. Let me try to be better understood.

Throughout the semester, several students questioned the professor about his grading policies and general lack of a syllabus. The professor's responses were never satisfactory. He always gave us bs about how we should all strive to be good scientists and do our best. It's as if he didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. True, I was definitely naive for believing him, but at the same time anything I could have complained about was already brought up repeatedly.

I also have some more news to share, which might change the scenario for you guys. I have tracked down 2 students who I know with 100% certainty did not even do one of the presentations. One of them claims to have gotten a B and the other got an A-. This is incredible. There were not many assignments at all. If they were weighted equally, you would have to get 100 on all the others to even get a C. And I don't think factoring in participation would help -- these guys skipped class almost everyday.

Of course, they could easily be lying, but let's assume they aren't for a brief moment. I would say that this almost certainly indicates that the professor goofed up somewhere. I think it would just be silly to "let it go" at this point. I still have some time before break ends and I can meet with the professor (he doesn't check email). I don't want tell him about the slackers that got away with doing little to nothing. I can think of two possibilities for what happened.
1) It is extremely easy to get an A in this class and some mistake was made in calculating my grade. (Maybe participation was worth a lot but he got my face confused with someone else)
2) He did not grade anything.

What do you guys think?
 
I'm not too surprised that many of you have neglected to read this before posting and have made your own assumptions. Maybe I could have been more clear. However, I do appreciate those of you who have offered thoughtful advice. Let me try to be better understood.

Throughout the semester, several students questioned the professor about his grading policies and general lack of a syllabus. The professor's responses were never satisfactory. He always gave us bs about how we should all strive to be good scientists and do our best. It's as if he didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. True, I was definitely naive for believing him, but at the same time anything I could have complained about was already brought up repeatedly.

I also have some more news to share, which might change the scenario for you guys. I have tracked down 2 students who I know with 100% certainty did not even do one of the presentations. One of them claims to have gotten a B and the other got an A-. This is incredible. There were not many assignments at all. If they were weighted equally, you would have to get 100 on all the others to even get a C. And I don't think factoring in participation would help -- these guys skipped class almost everyday.

Of course, they could easily be lying, but let's assume they aren't for a brief moment. I would say that this almost certainly indicates that the professor goofed up somewhere. I think it would just be silly to "let it go" at this point. I still have some time before break ends and I can meet with the professor (he doesn't check email). I don't want tell him about the slackers that got away with doing little to nothing. I can think of two possibilities for what happened.
1) It is extremely easy to get an A in this class and some mistake was made in calculating my grade. (Maybe participation was worth a lot but he got my face confused with someone else)
2) He did not grade anything.

What do you guys think?

at this point i'm just curious to know how he'll react and what he'll say. i'd say do it and be sure to report back!
 
You should go ahead and ask him where you lost the A. Also to the people saying "it's just a B, get over it," it may be a not so bad B, but the fact that the OP received a grade that is sub-par of what he/she earned (assuming the OP actually did earn an A) still makes it unfair.
 
I don't consider this to be grade-grubbing. I would definitely go talk to him - this is weird.

Let us know.
 
I'm not too surprised that many of you have neglected to read this before posting and have made your own assumptions. Maybe I could have been more clear. However, I do appreciate those of you who have offered thoughtful advice. Let me try to be better understood.

Throughout the semester, several students questioned the professor about his grading policies and general lack of a syllabus. The professor's responses were never satisfactory. He always gave us bs about how we should all strive to be good scientists and do our best. It's as if he didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. True, I was definitely naive for believing him, but at the same time anything I could have complained about was already brought up repeatedly.

I also have some more news to share, which might change the scenario for you guys. I have tracked down 2 students who I know with 100% certainty did not even do one of the presentations. One of them claims to have gotten a B and the other got an A-. This is incredible. There were not many assignments at all. If they were weighted equally, you would have to get 100 on all the others to even get a C. And I don't think factoring in participation would help -- these guys skipped class almost everyday.

Of course, they could easily be lying, but let's assume they aren't for a brief moment. I would say that this almost certainly indicates that the professor goofed up somewhere. I think it would just be silly to "let it go" at this point. I still have some time before break ends and I can meet with the professor (he doesn't check email). I don't want tell him about the slackers that got away with doing little to nothing. I can think of two possibilities for what happened.
1) It is extremely easy to get an A in this class and some mistake was made in calculating my grade. (Maybe participation was worth a lot but he got my face confused with someone else)
2) He did not grade anything.

What do you guys think?

You can go talk to him.

There is a difference between seeking out why you got a grade and trying to convince your teacher to give you a higher one. Some people don't seem to realize that. You can certainly go clarify why you got the grade you did. If the prof messed up, you get a new grade and that's no problem. If he says it wasn't a mistake, then thank him and be on your way. Don't argue and definitely don't bring up the other students' grades. This is not worth making a huge fuss about.
 
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