Are acceptances for minorities really that skewed?

[deleted407021]

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Sadly 9/10 times this occurred pretty early in the school year.

That is sad. Well, choices were made and Darwin awards were presented.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

It doesn't matter what you call it, there is AA in med school admissions. How else would URMs be getting in with significantly lower stats on average?

There are ORMs that get in with significantly lower stats. How do you explain that?

Bad argument there. URMs have lower average scores while there exist ORMs with low scores. Completely different scenarios and implications. So because there are short men, there must be no difference in average height between genders right?

 

[deleted407021]

Apologies for unintended profanity in advance.

The above two memes explain this sudden 1K explosion of such threads. A shame.

If only their arguments were as well articulated and informed as their fingers were eager to post.

 

[DermViser]

so again....we need to work on some reading comprehension....THERE IS NO AA AND HASN'T BEEN FOR 20 YEARS.

There is no AA in med school admissions as well. So stop complaining, comparing yourself to people and making yourself a martyr.

Geez.....if you don't focus on what you need to do to gain admissions and stop making excuses for everything you're going to be your own worst enemy.

YOU ARE WRONG: https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/newsreleases/377850/04232014.html

The AAMC has also submitted amicus briefs to SCOTUS supporting affirmative action. No need to lie.

 

[487806]

If only their arguments were as well articulated and informed as their fingers are eager to post.

Premeds love to type before thinking. Similar situation applies why premeds post "ZOMERGZ I got an A-!!! Will I get rejected from HMS????" etc.

 

[deleted407021]

Bad argument there. URMs have lower average scores while there exist ORMs with low scores. Completely different scenarios and implications. So because there are short men, there must be no difference in average height between genders right?

Wat? Where did you come from, anyway?

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Wat? Where did you come from, anyway?

Saying average scores for a whole group is lower vs. saying there are people with low scores from a group are two different things which BamaNicole tried equating

 

[deleted407021]

Saying average scores for a whole group is lower vs. saying there are people with low scores from a group are two different things which BamaNicole tried equating

I see what you mean.

 

[BamaNicole]

YOU ARE WRONG: https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/newsreleases/377850/04232014.html

The AAMC has also submitted amicus briefs to SCOTUS supporting affirmative action. No need to lie.

So where do you see that there are quotas.

 

[BamaNicole]

Saying average scores for a whole group is lower vs. saying there are people with low scores from a group are two different things which BamaNicole tried equating

Actually the whole agrument was "those with low test scores shouldn't get in because they won't be good doctors" then someone talked about how URMs "get in with lower scores" well so do URMs.

 

[DermViser]

So where do you see that there are quotas.

I never said Affirmative Action = Quotas. They aren't the same thing.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Actually the whole agrument was "those with low test scores shouldn't get in because they won't be good doctors" then someone talked about how URMs "get in with lower scores" well so do URMs.

"The whole argument" meaning MDforMee? No one else on this thread that is being taken seriously has said "those with low test scores shouldn't get in because they won't be good doctors." And yes, URMs do get in with lower scores on average while there are some ORMs that also get in with low scores. Your arguments are not sound and you pick and choose what you want to argue about.

 

[BlueCircle]

For the record I'm planning on staying in the Midwest and want to work within the LGBTQ community. So yeah

Why that community?

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

How? There are three times the number of Asian matriculants than Black matriculants (with Affirmative Action). Even Whites are significantly underrepresented in medicine in comparison to Asians. How is this group being discriminated against in medical admissions?

This is not a hard concept to grasp.

5% of people who run at 100-meter olympic trials make it. 2% of people who walked make it in the same event.

Just because people who are performing empirically at higher levels are getting accepted at higher rates, it doesn't mean they're being given an advantage. The fair thing to do would be to accept 7% people who ran, and 0% of the people who walked. There is a huge lack of understanding of how affirmative action creates advantages/disadvantages relative to objective measures of competitiveness if you think Asians being accepted at 3 times the rates of African Americans means they're not being discriminated against. URM scores are on average lower than whites and Asians, meaning that they have easier standards when it comes to being accepted into medical schools (and undergrad). It's very simple

 

[dyspareunia]

There are ORMs that get in with significantly lower stats. How do you explain that?

The same way I explain how some doctors make 7 figures a year while the vast majority don't touch $300k.

There are always outliers, but URMs getting in with 3.5/<30 are not outliers.

 

[BlueCircle]

This is not a hard concept to grasp.

5% of people who run at 100-meter olympic trials make it. 2% of people who walked make it in the same event.

Just because people who are performing empirically at higher levels are getting accepted at higher rates, it doesn't mean they're being given an advantage. The fair thing to do would be to accept 7% people who ran, and 0% of the people who walked. There is a huge lack of understanding of how affirmative action creates advantages/disadvantages relative to objective measures of competitiveness if you think Asians being accepted at 3 times the rates of African Americans means they're not being discriminated against. URM scores are on average lower than whites and Asians, meaning that they have easier standards when it comes to being accepted into medical schools (and undergrad). It's very simple

There's a big flaw in your analogy (rendering it completely useless) and that's that it makes the assumption medical school admissions is a one dimensional race, with one single goal- to recruit the highest scoring applicants in MCAT/GPA combo. It is not, and many, many things are taken into account (including bedside manners, ability to connect with the patient (aka socially competent), resembling patient population figures, areas of interest etc.) If that were the case, we would see 100% of applicants accepted in the upper right corner of the mcat/gpa grid and see all seats filled on downward.


A funny thing is that most of the people who complain about ADCOMs taking ethnicity to consideration are mostly on the lower scoring of the chart. If ADCOMS were to make medical school admissions based soley on GPA/MCAT, these individuals would automatically find themselves without an acceptance to a any medical school as higher scoring individuals would fill the seats over and over again. The fact that ADCOMS considers multiple factors in addition to GPA/MCAT scores is what gets in a BIG chunk acceptees.

And just as a side note, I find it a bit odd that the same day the troll thread starter gets banned, a new profile pops up with a very ambitious posting in the same thread. 🙄

 

[Lucca]

So what do you guys think of Clive Bundy.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

There's a big flaw in your analogy (rendering it completely useless) and that's that it makes the assumption medical school admissions is a one dimensional race, with one single goal- to recruit the highest scoring applicants in MCAT/GPA combo. It is not, and many, many things are taken into account (including bedside manners, ability to connect with the patient (aka socially competent), resembling patient population figures, areas of interest etc.) If that were the case, we would see 100% of applicants accepted in the upper right corner of the mcat/gpa grid and see all seats filled on downward.


A funny thing is that most of the people who complain about ADCOMs taking ethnicity to consideration are mostly on the lower scoring of the chart. If
ADCOMS were to make medical school admissions based soley on GPA/MCAT, these individuals would automatically find themselves without an acceptance to a any medical school as higher scoring individuals would fill the seats over and over again. The fact that ADCOMS considers multiple factors in addition to GPA/MCAT scores is what gets in a BIG chunk acceptees.

And just as a side note, I find it a bit odd that the same day the troll thread starter gets banned, a new profile pops up with a very ambitious posting in the same thread. 🙄

I agree. But just to add to what you said about the complainers- in my experience they also include ppl with really good stats that only want an acceptance to a "top tier school." They're afraid that someone will take their "top 15" seat and that is Armageddon to them. And as you pointed out, this is without taking other factors into consideration.

 

[Lucca]

I agree. But just to add to what you said about the complainers- in my experience they also include ppl with really good stats that only want an acceptance to a "top tier school." They're afraid that someone will take their "top 15" seat and that is Armageddon to them. And as you pointed out, this is without taking other factors into consideration.

The same is true in undergrad. I remember a lot of my white and asian friends complaining about how easy minorities had it in undergrad admissions.

All my minority friends are going to community college, working part time to save momey, and planning on transferring except for one going to a top 5 and most of the complainers are at top 20s. Go figure.

I also made it out pretty well but I can't tell people I have a scholarship because they will grill me about me getting it only because of my last name (has happened a lot). People even going as far as pointing to my honors and distinctions as being handed out because of AA in spite of being one of maybe 10 URMs in one distinction and one of two in the other distinction.

 

[touchpause13]

Why that community?

Because I was once a really scared queer teen who didn't have a lot of adults on her life she could trust. I saw my friends suffer. Some of them became homeless after they came out to their parents. Most of them were depressed. I want to help teens like that have proper, non discriminatory mental health care.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

The same is true in undergrad. I remember a lot of my white and asian friends complaining about how easy minorities had it in undergrad admissions.

All my minority friends are going to community college, working part time to save momey, and planning on transferring except for one going to a top 5 and most of the complainers are at top 20s. Go figure.

I also made it out pretty well but I can't tell people I have a scholarship because they will grill me about me getting it only because of my last name (has happened a lot). People even going as far as pointing to my honors and distinctions as being handed out because of AA in spite of being one of maybe 10 URMs in one distinction and one of two in the other distinction.

And anyone would happily take scholarship $ if given to them. But if they don't get it, they won't hesitate to complain. I feel that this all comes down to grade school bratty complaining. I've never heard of anyone with good grades, test scores, EC's, personality, not get into something (except for Harvard of course).

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

There's a big flaw in your analogy (rendering it completely useless) and that's that it makes the assumption medical school admissions is a one dimensional race, with one single goal- to recruit the highest scoring applicants in MCAT/GPA combo. It is not, and many, many things are taken into account (including bedside manners, ability to connect with the patient (aka socially competent), resembling patient population figures, areas of interest etc.) If that were the case, we would see 100% of applicants accepted in the upper right corner of the mcat/gpa grid and see all seats filled on downward.


A funny thing is that most of the people who complain about ADCOMs taking ethnicity to consideration are mostly on the lower scoring of the chart. If ADCOMS were to make medical school admissions based soley on GPA/MCAT, these individuals would automatically find themselves without an acceptance to a any medical school as higher scoring individuals would fill the seats over and over again. The fact that ADCOMS considers multiple factors in addition to GPA/MCAT scores is what gets in a BIG chunk acceptees.

And just as a side note, I find it a bit odd that the same day the troll thread starter gets banned, a new profile pops up with a very ambitious posting in the same thread. 🙄

I'm not arguing whether or not it's fair or not if you bothered to read my post and what I quoted carefully. Espadaleader is bewildered at why Asians would be bothered by getting accepted at 3 times the rate of African Americans. My analogies do answer that question in full. Whether or not the admissions process is like a one dimensional race is another matter. To those who are frustrated with the process, it is because it's empirically unfair - your other reasons explain why admissions committees take race into account. That's fine and sound, but not relevant to why Asians are annoyed despite being accepted at higher numbers

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Anyway, toodaloo guys I'm leaving this thread. Peace and love and my fabulous hair to everyone

 

[MDforMee]

"The whole argument" meaning MDforMee? No one else on this thread that is being taken seriously has said "those with

Seconded. I don't see people getting along here anytime soon... Abandoning ship.

Don't forget the good times... Don't ever let go, jack

 

[Mad Jack]

Seconded. I don't see people getting along here anytime soon... Abandoning ship.

Don't forget the good times... Don't ever let go, jack

I thought we were having a reasonable debate about an important topic that significantly impacts both current and future medical students. This really wasn't nearly as terrible as most threads on the topic are. Disagreeing =/= not getting along

 

[487806]

YOU ARE WRONG: https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/newsreleases/377850/04232014.html

The AAMC has also submitted amicus briefs to SCOTUS supporting affirmative action. No need to lie.

I never said Affirmative Action = Quotas. They aren't the same thing.

I always smile when I see a resident slamming an MS0/premed. Nicely done.

 

[MDforMee]

I thought we were having a reasonable debate about an important topic that significantly impacts both current and future medical students. This really wasn't nearly as terrible as most threads on the topic are. Disagreeing =/= not getting along

I lost faith when my intentions for helping underprivileged students were attacked.

 

[DermViser]

I lost faith when my intentions for helping underprivileged students were attacked.

We lost faith when you use that experience to somehow give yourself gravitas in the affirmative action debate.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Because I was once a really scared queer teen who didn't have a lot of adults on her life she could trust. I saw my friends suffer. Some of them became homeless after they came out to their parents. Most of them were depressed. I want to help teens like that have proper, non discriminatory mental health care.

This is very admirable.

 

[Mr Interesting]

We lost faith when you use that experience to somehow give yourself gravitas in the affirmative action debate.

lol yes. Though I must admit I lost faith we he dropped this gem:

I can only speak for myself, here, but admitting people to medical school with inferior abilities will inevitably interfere with my future patient's abilities to recover from their medical problems.

 

[Mad Jack]

We lost faith when you use that experience to somehow give yourself gravitas in the affirmative action debate.

Ouch, he's gonna need some ice after that burn...

 

[MDforMee]

We lost faith when you use that experience to somehow give yourself gravitas in the affirmative action debate.

You're just proving my point.

Do yourself a favor and look into why blacks and hispanics fail out of medical school, by the way. Their most commonly cited reasons are academic; this is not the case with white and asian students.

If you think that other URMs who similarly struggle academically in medical school are somehow wisked away from experiencing related problems, clinically, you're in for a rude awakening. You should be thanking me for helping students learn how to succeed, academically.

See ya, gimps

 

[DermViser]

You're just proving my point.

Do yourself a favor and look into why blacks and hispanics fail out of medical school, by the way. Their most commonly cited reasons are academic; this is not the case with white and asian students.

If you think that other URMs who similarly struggle academically in medical school are somehow wisked away from experiencing related problems, clinically, you're in for a rude awakening. You should be thanking me for helping students learn how to succeed, academically.

See ya, gimps

Oh, yes please take us to the promise land of clinical competence!! Since you've told us that undergraduate GPA and MCAT score predict this. Tell me, if I get a 45 on the MCAT will I be able to regenerate organs for my patient since, "future patient's abilities to recover from their medical problems" depends on it?

 

[Mr Interesting]

Do yourself a favor and look into why blacks and hispanics fail out of medical school, by the way. Their most commonly cited reasons are academic; this is not the case with white and asian students.

If you think that other URMs who similarly struggle academically in medical school are somehow wisked away from experiencing related problems, clinically, you're in for a rude awakening. You should be thanking me for helping students learn how to succeed, academically.

See ya, gimps

Was there a recent study done on this or are you citing a study from about 20 years ago?

 

[deleted407021]

lol yes. Though I must admit I lost faith we he dropped this gem:

I've made the point earlier; he's been stuck on this theme of predicting the efficacy of any physician based on their undergraduate credentials.

You lost your credibility with, ....well, most people, when, a while back, you kept going on about how non hard science majors shouldn't go to medical school.

And yes, it is relevant to the discussion because you started it. See quote above.

Perhaps he's clinging to (and overemphasizing the importance of) his academics for lack of personal depth and social intelligence. However, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and suggest that he is simply ill informed. Myself and others are similarly inexperienced, but the difference between he and ourselves is that he feels the need to fill in these gaps in understanding with nonsense. He didn't leave the "know-it-all" phase behind in middle school.

 

[Gifted Hands]

You're just proving my point.

Do yourself a favor and look into why blacks and hispanics fail out of medical school, by the way. Their most commonly cited reasons are academic; this is not the case with white and asian students.

If you think that other URMs who similarly struggle academically in medical school are somehow wisked away from experiencing related problems, clinically, you're in for a rude awakening. You should be thanking me for helping students learn how to succeed, academically.

See ya, gimps

Do us a favor, please show us a shred of evidence that supports this beyond your bizarre imagination. You tell people to read the evidence like it exists, so please share what you are referring to. I'm begging you... Because every other credible source completely contradicts everything you are saying. The attrition rates for allopathic medical schools are really low, including for URMs, and those who do leave the most common reason is finances.

 

[touchpause13]

You lost your credibility with, ....well, most people, when, a while back, you kept going on about how non hard science majors shouldn't go to medical school.

And yes, it is relevant to the discussion because you started it. See quote above.

Wait wut????

Where did he say that??

 

[Mad Jack]

I thought MDforMeee didn't apply to med school because his grades were too low, so he started a Master's degree. If his argument is basically that undergraduate grades predict future clinician ability, isn't he basically just making the case for his own future incompetence?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Oh, yes please take us to the promise land of clinical competence!! Since you've told us that undergraduate GPA and MCAT score predict this. Tell me, if I get a 45 on the MCAT will I be able to regenerate organs for my patient since, "future patient's abilities to recover from their medical problems" depends on it?

You're just proving my point.

Do yourself a favor and look into why blacks and hispanics fail out of medical school, by the way. Their most commonly cited reasons are academic; this is not the case with white and asian students.

If you think that other URMs who similarly struggle academically in medical school are somehow wisked away from experiencing related problems, clinically, you're in for a rude awakening. You should be thanking me for helping students learn how to succeed, academically.

See ya, gimps

I've received incompetent "medical care" (which was more like "illness exacerbation") from "ORM" physicians that attended prestigious institutions for medical school and residency. I'm sure they had fantastic MCAT's USMLE's etc but they were horrible as clinicians. These experiences have been a driving force in my desire to become a doctor.

 

[deleted407021]

Wait wut????

Where did he say that??

I'm not certain. I've tried to find it, but it's buried under maybe 4+ months of posts by him. He kept going on about how people who didn't major in physics, chemistry or biology aren't equipped for a medical career and shouldn't be admitted to medical school. It was absurd.

 

[Mad Jack]

I've received incompetent "medical care" (which was more like "illness exacerbation") from "ORM" physicians that attended prestigious institutions for medical school and residency. I'm sure they had fantastic MCAT's USMLE's etc but they were horrible as clinicians. These experiences have been a driving force in my desire to become a doctor.

One of the most incompetent physicians I ever had the displeasure of working with was an MD/PhD from a top 5 school.

Credentials =/= competence.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm not certain. I've tried to find it, but it's buried under maybe 4+ months of posts by him. He kept going on about how people who didn't major in physics, chemistry or biology aren't equipped for a medical career and shouldn't be admitted to medical school. It was absurd.

Maybe it was in the PAs getting into medical school without the MCAT thread? It sounds familiar.

 

[touchpause13]

I'm not certain. I've tried to find it, but it's buried under maybe 4+ months of posts by him. He kept going on about how people who didn't major in physics, chemistry or biology aren't equipped for a medical career and shouldn't be admitted to medical school. It was absurd.

Wow. That's ridiculous and offensive. Because a BS in biology is super important in clinical practice. .. /snark

Good to know that having a degree in English is going to make me an incompetent physician. Which is funny because I doubt MDforMee could get a good grade in any high level literature course. Dat reading comprehension.

 

[deleted407021]

Wait wut????

Where did he say that??

Found it.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...chemistry-was-a-prereq.1050859/#post-14808621

Here's a nice tidbit:
Long story short, physical chemistry is like the whole foods hot bar for your brain, and soft sciences/liberal arts are somewhere in the international canned food aisle. I'm shocked and amazed that the 2015 MCAT will have humanities, sociology, and psychology on it. When people start majoring in that garbage we'll have a spike in medication errors and irresponsible prescriptive decision making more so than we already do. My former mentor (a PhD holder in Chemistry from UCD) died from an adverse drug reaction due to some of this... I was in nursing, before, and you wouldn't believe some of the crap I've seen. In fact, part of the reason why I'm doing a Pharmacology masters is to become more competent and responsible for my future patients. I'm done ranting.

He goes on to suggest that an anthropology major will have done a disservice to himself come time for clinical work.....
@Mad Jack

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I get what you are trying to do but please try to look at it from another perspective.

There is a huge distrust between minority communities with white physicians and if we look at the horrible and unethical events in our history, their distrust may be justifiable. I’m sure you are familiar with the Tuskegee syphilis experiment or the Guatemala syphilis experiment. In fact, throughout our history minorities have been repeatedly used as guinea pigs by white physicians and researchers. In practically all those dishonorable experiments the minorities usually ended up dead though they were mislead into believing they were receiving quality health care. As a result, many minority populations do not trust most white physicians.

Sure, I get what you're saying here. However, it's been a few decades since these experiments. When does it end? I'm not sure that perpetuating the validity of distrust by actively trying to make sure minorities can see minority doctors is going to do much to heal and move toward a more color blind populace.

To be fair, I offer no solution. Just thinking out loud...

 

[NontradCA]

Shouldn't this thread be locked because the OP is banned?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

You're just proving my point.

Do yourself a favor and look into why blacks and hispanics fail out of medical school, by the way. Their most commonly cited reasons are academic; this is not the case with white and asian students.

If you think that other URMs who similarly struggle academically in medical school are somehow wisked away from experiencing related problems, clinically, you're in for a rude awakening. You should be thanking me for helping students learn how to succeed, academically.

See ya, gimps

So I guess "Blacks and Hispanics" below your GPA and MCAT standards are gonna ruin the entire field.

 

[deleted407021]

Shouldn't this thread be locked because the OP is banned?

Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't. This has been a particularly amiable thread, considering the subject matter.

 

[touchpause13]

Shouldn't this thread be locked because the OP is banned?

Probably but I want to see MD4me keep digging that hole.

Care to explain yourself about your humanities hate @MDforMee? ?

 

[Mad Jack]

Shouldn't this thread be locked because the OP is banned?

Many threads live on long after their OP is banned. Look no further than the Class of 2018 thread that has been going for nearly a decade. It just depends on whether anything constructive is happening in the thread post-ban.