Are Asian Indians at a disadvantage?

[ur2l8]

Hi SDN, one of my friends is a first generation Indian-American (we live in the USA). We debated recently on some things...

My first question is: are Indians (from Asia, or their parents from Asia and the student was born in the states) at a disadvantage with regard to getting into medical school?

Second question: Are they urm?

Thanks

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[lolcat]

Why do you think they are at a disadvantage?

 

[ur2l8]

I don't think they are (to any noticeable extent). My friend says that Indians are discriminated against in getting into schools (our discussion was brought upon by the recent supreme court/affirmative action dealings in the news)

 

[LizzyM]

Hi SDN, one of my friends is a first generation Indian-American (we live in the USA). We debated recently on some things...

My first question is: are Indians (from Asia, or their parents from Asia and the student was born in the states) at a disadvantage with regard to getting into medical school?

Second question: Are they urm?

Thanks

Indian-Americans are not URM, if anything they are ORM (look around, Indian-American physicains greatly exceed the proportion of Indian-Americans in the population). Given that they greatly exceed the proportion of Indian-Americans in the popultioan, it would not appear that they are at a disadvanage. That said, an Indian-American will have a harder time than an American Indian to show that they bring an otherwise unrepresented view point to the table. Remember, it is like a tossed salad... we take a scoop from a big bowl and get a little of everything. We might go back and scoop up something that is not represented on the plate based on that first scoop -- if there are many like you in the bowl, the chances that you'll be scooped up as something special is slim but you have as good a chance as anyone of being scooped up in the general scheme of things.

 

[sector9]

Really? Your first question is are Asians at a disadvantage and your second is are they URM?

 

[theseeker4]

I don't think they are (to any noticeable extent). My friend says that Indians are discriminated against in getting into schools (our discussion was brought upon by the recent supreme court/affirmative action dealings in the news)

Asians are definitely NOT URM's and tend to need better stats than their white competitors to gain admission.

 

[Hotshy]

Asian Indians aren't URM, if anything Asian Indians are ORM (Over-represented) in medicine relative to the amount of Asian Indians in the patient population. I would say that you are at a slight disadvantage and last time I checked national averages for accepted applicants, the national MCAT average across all ethnicitys was 31.1. However for Asian applicants of all types this number is 32.2 if my memory serves me well.

 

[gmcguitar4]

It is funny how we call native americans, "Indians." They were mistakenly called Indians by Columbus and the name stuck.

http://www.wimp.com/ahhhindians/ -Louis CK

 

[tantacles]

Indian-Americans are not URM, if anything they are ORM (look around, Indian-American physicains greatly exceed the proportion of Indian-Americans in the population). Given that they greatly exceed the proportion of Indian-Americans in the popultioan, it would not appear that they are at a disadvanage. That said, an Indian-American will have a harder time than an American Indian to show that they bring an otherwise unrepresented view point to the table. Remember, it is like a tossed salad... we take a scoop from a big bowl and get a little of everything. We might go back and scoop up something that is not represented on the plate based on that first scoop -- if there are many like you in the bowl, the chances that you'll be scooped up as something special is slim but you have as good a chance as anyone of being scooped up in the general scheme of things.

This is my favorite med school metaphor. Always and forever.

 

[1TB4RKSB4CK]

Asians are definitely NOT URM's and tend to need better stats than their white competitors to gain admission.

I thought they needed similar stats?
I was also under the impression that in a huge pool of asians (indians, chinese, japs etc), asian islanders tend to have more admission selection room.

 

[gmcguitar4]

I thought they needed similar stats?
I was also under the impression that in a huge pool of asians (indians, chinese, japs etc), asian islanders tend to have more admission selection room.

I would think people who are not of asian decent on an adcom would just think that "asians are asians" and not really get into the details.

 

[WDeagle]

I thought they needed similar stats?
I was also under the impression that in a huge pool of asians (indians, chinese, japs etc), asian islanders tend to have more admission selection room.

?

 

[kpcrew]

?

problem?

 

[1TB4RKSB4CK]

I'm asian too.....

 

[IMSingular]

Though Asians may seem over represented actualility may be rather subtle. If you take a stratified sample of Americans excluding Asians that is similar educational backgrounds as Asians this over representation may not pan out, and actually you may find that they are under represented. The reason they are over represented as per population fraction is because a self selected segment of highly educated Asians make it to USA. Reason they are over represented is exactly the same as average income of parents of matriculant to medical colleges is almost three time the average income of the whole population.

 

[sibitrum]

The idea that someone's not special because they're asian is suspect to say the least lol.

 

[LizzyM]

Though Asians may seem over represented actualility may be rather subtle. If you take a stratified sample of Americans excluding Asians that is similar educational backgrounds as Asians this over representation may not pan out, and actually you may find that they are under represented. The reason they are over represented as per population fraction is because a self selected segment of highly educated Asians make it to USA. Reason they are over represented is exactly the same as average income of parents of matriculant to medical colleges is almost three time the average income of the whole population.

Yikes... I'm not understanding this at all...

However, I think you are trying to say that stratifying by SES, Asian Indians are underrepresented. I don't buy it. Furthermore, URM means that there are very few ___ working in medicine. In other words, if you were looking for role models who were ___ you'd be hard pressed to find a physician who fit that description. That is not so for Indian-Americans.

 

[yellowfish]

For the following range:
GPA- 3.20-3.39
MCAT- 30-32

African-American Applicants:
Acceptance Rate- 82.8%

Caucasian-American Applicants:
Acceptance Rate- 40.7%

Asian-American Applicants:
Acceptance Rate- 30.9%

I chose a pool where there were sufficient observations for statistical significance and didn't look at the statistics before I chose them, so not "trying to tell a story here". But in my mind, there's no doubt that the general higher amount of competitiveness, at least in terms of GPA/MCAT among Asian-American applicants has led to increased difficulty for this group to gain admittance to medical school compared to other groups.

Edit:

Yes, they are at a disadvantage. Some may attempt to rationalize the statistics otherwise, but their justifications are murky at best.

 

[1TB4RKSB4CK]

I hate this. 🙁

 

[IMSingular]

Yikes... I'm not understanding this at all...

However, I think you are trying to say that stratifying by SES, Asian Indians are underrepresented. I don't buy it. Furthermore, URM means that there are very few ___ working in medicine. In other words, if you were looking for role models who were ___ you'd be hard pressed to find a physician who fit that description. That is not so for Indian-Americans.

In statistical analysis there is some thing called stratified sampling method. Now if you create buckets for different education level or income level and see in each of these buckets and compare them. If you take highest strata of income and then see whether the fraction of matriculant in that bucket are proportional to the population in that bucket; I would not be surprised that Asians may have lower fraction. That may be due to inter generational network that may be lacking among Asians since they are late comers to USA. Asians who migrate tend have higher education and are known to have higher average income. Though they do over represent when compared over all they may not over represent in each strata of income group or buckets.

 

[Plue00]

Sigh...

A group gets punished for working hard :/

 

[ronaldo23]

Indian-Americans are not URM, if anything they are ORM (look around, Indian-American physicains greatly exceed the proportion of Indian-Americans in the population). Given that they greatly exceed the proportion of Indian-Americans in the popultioan, it would not appear that they are at a disadvanage. That said, an Indian-American will have a harder time than an American Indian to show that they bring an otherwise unrepresented view point to the table. Remember, it is like a tossed salad... we take a scoop from a big bowl and get a little of everything. We might go back and scoop up something that is not represented on the plate based on that first scoop -- if there are many like you in the bowl, the chances that you'll be scooped up as something special is slim but you have as good a chance as anyone of being scooped up in the general scheme of things.

Given that they have acceptance rates lower than every other ethnic group (all stats equal), it would indeed appear they are at a disadvantage, even compared to white people.

 

[kpcrew]

Yikes... I'm not understanding this at all...

However, I think you are trying to say that stratifying by SES, Asian Indians are underrepresented. I don't buy it. Furthermore, URM means that there are very few ___ working in medicine. In other words, if you were looking for role models who were ___ you'd be hard pressed to find a physician who fit that description. That is not so for Indian-Americans.

I'm not sure that I understand why you would require a role model that happens to have the same skin color.

 

[LizzyM]

Given that they have acceptance rates lower than every other ethnic group (all stats equal), it would indeed appear they are at a disadvantage, even compared to white people.

Not everything is a stat. We have applicants who are unable to speak intelligible English (thick accents). We have applicants who are unable to articulate why they wish to be physicians other than they don't wish to be engineers or because it is a long family tradition going back many generations.

 

[ranson]

It's not just indians who are at a disadvantage; it's pretty much all asians.

 

[LizzyM]

I'm not sure that I understand why you would require a role model that happens to have the same skin color.

It isn't about skin color. It is about representing different life experiences and viewpoints. TPTB put a high premium on diversity and there is the observation that medical schools, medical school faculty and medical school student enrollment should be representative of the state (if enrollment is limited to in-state) or the country.

It isn't that long ago that state medical schools in the deep south did not admit blacks and the medical societies of those states would not admit black physicians as members ergo those physicians could not join the AMA.



See: . Seeing Patients: Unconscious Bias in Health Care by Augustus A. White III, MD, and David Chanoff. Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Mass., 2011,
The Good Doctors: The Medical Committee for Human Rights and the Struggle for Social Justice in Health Care by John Dittmer Bloomsbury Press, 2009.

 

[yellowfish]

Not everything is a stat. We have applicants who are unable to speak intelligible English (thick accents). We have applicants who are unable to articulate why they wish to be physicians other than they don't wish to be engineers or because it is a long family tradition going back many generations.

The only plausible way this could have explanatory power on the phenomenon that we are observing, however, is that Asian-Americans speak disproportionately poor English, are unable to articulate why they wish to be physicians, or only want to be physicians because it is a family tradition. Considering that we are talking about Asian-AMERICANS, not international students, I find this explanation weak at best.

For the following range:
GPA- 3.20-3.39
MCAT- 30-32

African-American Applicants:
Acceptance Rate- 82.8%

Caucasian-American Applicants:
Acceptance Rate- 40.7%

Asian-American Applicants:
Acceptance Rate- 30.9%

I chose a pool where there were sufficient observations for statistical significance and didn't look at the statistics before I chose them, so not "trying to tell a story here". But in my mind, there's no doubt that the general higher amount of competitiveness, at least in terms of GPA/MCAT among Asian-American applicants has led to increased difficulty for this group to gain admittance to medical school compared to other groups.

Edit:

Yes, they are at a disadvantage. Some may attempt to rationalize the statistics otherwise, but their justifications are murky at best.

Edit:

It was actually well-documented in the 1990s that there were strict quotas on the number of Asian-Americans admitted to higher institutions of learning. This blatant discrimination no longer exists, but one would have to be blind to think that it has completely dissipated out of our educational system.

 

[kpcrew]

It isn't about skin color. It is about representing different life experiences and viewpoints. TPTB put a high premium on diversity and there is the observation that medical schools, medical school faculty and medical school student enrollment should be representative of the state (if enrollment is limited to in-state) or the country.

It isn't that long ago that state medical schools in the deep south did not admit blacks and the medical societies of those states would not admit black physicians as members ergo those physicians could not join the AMA.



See: . Seeing Patients: Unconscious Bias in Health Care by Augustus A. White III, MD, and David Chanoff. Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Mass., 2011,
The Good Doctors: The Medical Committee for Human Rights and the Struggle for Social Justice in Health Care by John Dittmer Bloomsbury Press, 2009.

So being Asian means that my life experience and viewpoints are already overrepresented in America and my existence represents a decrease in diversity. My status as an individual is irrelevant compared to my supposed identity as a member of a certain group. I'm not sure how the percentages of a population entail the necessity of some people being held to a higher standard for circumstances that had absolutely nothing to do with them.

 

[MartletMD]

The only plausible way this could have explanatory power on the phenomenon that we are observing, however, is that Asian-Americans speak disproportionately poor English, are unable to articulate why they wish to be physicians, or only want to be physicians because it is a family tradition. Considering that we are talking about Asian-AMERICANS, not international students, I find this explanation weak at best.

It is entirely possible to be Asian-American and an immigrant; if they came over after the age of 9 or so, their English phonological development will be permanently impaired and they will speak with an accent. It could be slight, if they came to the US when they were 9, or it could be extremely thick if they arrived closer to 16 or 17. It's not their fault, not even a little, and their English could be otherwise fluent, but linguistic studies have shown a correlation with age of acquisition and "thickness" of accent.

And I have no problem seeing the last two reasons as an issue, especially with second- and third-generation Asian-Americans.

 

[Hotshy]

The only plausible way this could have explanatory power on the phenomenon that we are observing, however, is that Asian-Americans speak disproportionately poor English, are unable to articulate why they wish to be physicians, or only want to be physicians because it is a family tradition. Considering that we are talking about Asian-AMERICANS, not international students, I find this explanation weak at best.

What about Asian Americans that move here say in 8th grade, at which point they are going to develop an accent? In my personal experience I have met many Asian-Americans pursuing medicine that never really had an experience that lead them to choose that path. Much of this has to do family expectations and being told that they need to pursue medicine or engineering from a young age. There are definitely many Asian Americans with genuine motivation for medicine, but I have met many that have been pushed by family directly, or just raised to become physicians or engineers from a young age. At this point you have to wonder how much does this person genuinely want to be a physician vs. how much are they being pushed by other factors.

 

[kpcrew]

What about Asian Americans that move here say in 8th grade, at which point they are going to develop an accent? In my personal experience I have met many Asian-Americans pursuing medicine that never really had an experience that lead them to choose that path. Much of this has to do family expectations and being told that they need to pursue medicine or engineering from a young age. There are definitely many Asian Americans with genuine motivation for medicine, but I have met many that have been pushed by family directly, or just raised to become physicians or engineers from a young age. At this point you have to wonder how much does this person genuinely want to be a physician vs. how much are they being pushed by other factors.

Note: this phenomena is solely limited to Asians. Certainly no one else deals with other factors such as familial pressure or the prestige of having an M.D. Of course, they became doctors to serve their community and they only look towards maximizing the patient's wellbeing.

 

[yellowfish]

It is entirely possible to be Asian-American and an immigrant; if they came over after the age of 9 or so, their English phonological development will be permanently impaired and they will speak with an accent. It could be slight, if they came to the US when they were 9, or it could be extremely thick if they arrived closer to 16 or 17. It's not their fault, not even a little, and their English could be otherwise fluent, but linguistic studies have shown a correlation with age of acquisition and "thickness" of accent.

Most people who move here when, as you used in your example, they are 9 years old have very little trace of an accent - it would absolutely not interfere with their ability to communicate effectively. If they moved here when they were 16 years old, that may be a different issue.

And I have no problem seeing the last two reasons as an issue, especially with second- and third-generation Asian-Americans.

Then I can only assume that you "have no issue" with many things that have absolutely no foundation or basis.

What about Asian Americans that move here say in 8th grade, at which point they are going to develop an accent? In my personal experience I have met many Asian-Americans pursuing medicine that never really had an experience that lead them to choose that path. Much of this has to do family expectations and being told that they need to pursue medicine or engineering from a young age. There are definitely many Asian Americans with genuine motivation for medicine, but I have met many that have been pushed by family directly, or just raised to become physicians or engineers from a young age. At this point you have to wonder how much does this person genuinely want to be a physician vs. how much are they being pushed by other factors.

"Your experience" is subjective and based off of preconceived notions. Your stereotyping of race, which is in the first place a social construct, is unsettling.

For example: I have also met many Caucasian-Americans that are motivated by family lineage to become physicians. There are disproportionately many of these compared to other racial groups.

Did that contribute to this discussion?

 

[Hotshy]

Note: this phenomena is solely limited to Asians. Certainly no one else deals with other factors such as familial pressure or the prestige of having an M.D. Of course, they became doctors to serve their community and they only look towards maximizing the patient's wellbeing.

I'm not saying it's only Asian Americans, but none of my Caucasian friends were ever pushed into medicine, although I'm sure some are. I'm Caucasian and personally my family would have been happy if I went to community college, so long as I was happy with my life. So, no I personally have not been pushed at all to be anything in particular, I had an influential experience with health care at a young age and made medicine my own goal. In fact I was initially discouraged by my mother who is an LPN, because she said "medicine is too competitive and didn't want to see me let down". This is just one example and I am only reporting what I have seen when speaking with my Asian American and Caucasian friends.

 

[Hotshy]

Most people who move here when, as you used in your example, they are 9 years old have very little trace of an accent - it would absolutely not interfere with their ability to communicate effectively. If they moved here when they were 16 years old, that may be a different issue.



Then I can only assume that you "have no issue" with many things that have absolutely no foundation or basis.



"Your experience" is subjective and based off of preconceived notions. Your stereotyping of race, which is in the first place a social construct, is unsettling.

For example: I have also met many Caucasian-Americans that are motivated by family lineage to become physicians. There are disproportionately many of these compared to other racial groups.

Did that contribute to this discussion?

I am only talking about anecdotal evidence, which I just mentioned in the previous post. How about you tell me about your experiences then?

 

[yellowfish]

I am only talking about anecdotal evidence, which I just mentioned in the previous post. How about you tell me about your experiences then?

The whole point is that I'm not - I don't think it would be meaningful because of the sheer scope of the issue versus the narrowness of my individual experience. To attempt to connect the two would be ecological fallacy. I don't mean to come across as angry or mean, but I'm really unsettled by some of the sweeping generalizations and rationalizations I'm reading here.

 

[LizzyM]

So being Asian means that my life experience and viewpoints are already overrepresented in America and my existence represents a decrease in diversity. My status as an individual is irrelevant compared to my supposed identity as a member of a certain group. I'm not sure how the percentages of a population entail the necessity of some people being held to a higher standard for circumstances that had absolutely nothing to do with them.

Overrepresented in Medicine in America... yes.

You are in that great big salad bowl just like so many other pieces of lettuce and chunks of cucumber and tomato. If you get selected, great, but you aren't underrepresented. No one is going to scoop you out and add you to the plate saying, "I didn't get any of the lettuce..."

You need to be as good or better than your peers to have a shot. Work hard. Be exceptional.

 

[MartletMD]

Then I can only assume that you "have no issue" with many things that have absolutely no foundation or basis.

I'm sorry that my wording upset you; I certainly didn't mean it to be hurtful. I only meant that I could see where LizzyM/adcoms are coming from, and I could understand why adcoms might feel that Asian-American applicants may be influenced by the expectations of their parents and that may lead them to be unable to really explain why they would like to pursue medicine, specifically. I also see why Asian-American applicants who do have very genuine reasons for pursuing medicine and have not been pushed by family may feel frustrated and upset that they are being categorized and stereotyped.

And we do agree on the accent; no native English speaker would have any problems understanding a non-native English speaker's English if they (the non-native English speaker) immigrated at the age of 9. I used both a 9-year-old and a 16-year-old L2 learner in my example to head off the notion that I might think that all immigrants have thick accents, when that is clearly not the case. 🙂

 

[Hotshy]

The whole point is that I'm not - I don't think it would be meaningful because of the sheer scope of the issue versus the narrowness of my individual experience. To attempt to connect the two would be ecological fallacy. I don't mean to come across as angry or mean, but I'm really unsettled by some of the sweeping generalizations and rationalizations I'm reading here.

Well sorry to hear that. It's always constructive to share personal experiences though, even if generalizations are included, at least that way there is a dialogue rather than people internalizing those generalizations. By having a dialogue you can introduce people to new ideas and have them rethink their pre-conceived notions. Thus I made sure to give the caveat, "these are just my experiences."

EDIT: I digress at this point.

 

[typicalindian]

It isn't about skin color. It is about representing different life experiences and viewpoints. TPTB put a high premium on diversity and there is the observation that medical schools, medical school faculty and medical school student enrollment should be representative of the state (if enrollment is limited to in-state) or the country.

It isn't that long ago that state medical schools in the deep south did not admit blacks and the medical societies of those states would not admit black physicians as members ergo those physicians could not join the AMA.



See: . Seeing Patients: Unconscious Bias in Health Care by Augustus A. White III, MD, and David Chanoff. Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Mass., 2011,
The Good Doctors: The Medical Committee for Human Rights and the Struggle for Social Justice in Health Care by John Dittmer Bloomsbury Press, 2009.

Maybe I misinterpreted what you meant, but, are you saying that life experiences vary depending on race? wouldn't it be more accurate to discriminate based on location and income instead? Like I said, maybe I'm not understanding what you meant...

 

[kpcrew]

Overrepresented in Medicine in America... yes.

You are in that great big salad bowl just like so many other pieces of lettuce and chunks of cucumber and tomato. If you get selected, great, but you aren't underrepresented. No one is going to scoop you out and add you to the plate saying, "I didn't get any of the lettuce..."

You need to be as good or better than your peers to have a shot. Work hard. Be exceptional.

How arrogant of me to assume that my peers included the entire cohort of applicants rather than just those with whom I happen to share certain characteristics. I can se how having too many qualified applicants from certain groups is less desirable than having a colorful graduating class. Standards should be most certainly be relaxed to compensate for certain historical oddities. If the occasion arises wherein I find myself in a hospital, the presence of people with supposedly different life experiences as determined by those aforementioned characteristics will be a reassurance since there are very few situations that are as undesirable as a meritocracy.

 

[Plue00]

Overrepresented in Medicine in America... yes.

You are in that great big salad bowl just like so many other pieces of lettuce and chunks of cucumber and tomato. If you get selected, great, but you aren't underrepresented. No one is going to scoop you out and add you to the plate saying, "I didn't get any of the lettuce..."

You need to be as good or better than your peers to have a shot. Work hard. Be exceptional.

So it's okay for African Americans and Hispanics to not work as hard and get into medical school? I would want the best doctor, not the doctor who can tell me how different from me they are.

 

[Hotshy]

How arrogant of me to assume that my peers included the entire cohort of applicants rather than just those with whom I happen to share certain characteristics. I can se how having too many qualified applicants from certain groups is less desirable than having a colorful graduating class. Standards should be most certainly be relaxed to compensate for certain historical oddities. If the occasion arises wherein I find myself in a hospital, the presence of people with supposedly different life experiences as determined by those aforementioned characteristics will be a reassurance since there are very few situations that are as undesirable as a meritocracy.

Sound like you didn't get accepted yet this cycle and you're Asian.

 

[yellowfish]

I'm sorry that my wording upset you; I certainly didn't mean it to be hurtful. I only meant that I could see where LizzyM/adcoms are coming from, and I could understand why adcoms might feel that Asian-American applicants may be influenced by the expectations of their parents and that may lead them to be unable to really explain why they would like to pursue medicine, specifically. I also see why Asian-American applicants who do have very genuine reasons for pursuing medicine and have not been pushed by family may feel frustrated and upset that they are being categorized and stereotyped.

And we do agree on the accent; no native English speaker would have any problems understanding a non-native English speaker's English if they (the non-native English speaker) immigrated at the age of 9. I used both a 9-year-old and a 16-year-old L2 learner in my example to head off the notion that I might think that all immigrants have thick accents, when that is clearly not the case. 🙂

No worries, I also apologize for coming off coarsely. I think this is one of those issues that everyone gets very passionate about because of its importance and connection with underlying racial issues, which have always been a very touchy subject matter in the US 🙂

 

[IMSingular]

So it's okay for African Americans and Hispanics to be lazy? I would want the best doctor, not the doctor who can tell me how different from me they are.

Well. Those best doctors may never work in the neighborhood of hispanics and african american. They, hispanics and african americans, may not get the doctors at all if strict meritocracy is followed. That is the reason URM programs are required. If we want strict meritocracy tehre is no reason states should give preference to the residents of the state. There again states attempt to produce phisicians who are likely to stay in the state. Of course this doesn't always pan out. I know a physicians who was texan, who got MD in texas but now works in boston. Texas would have been better of not making tution cheaper but giving some sort of business credit to physicians who establish in Texas irrespective of where they got their MD.

 

[Neurosis]

Sound like you didn't get accepted yet this cycle and you're Asian.

wow, .

 

[typicalindian]

Sound like you didn't get accepted yet this cycle and you're Asian.

Hahaha!

 

[kpcrew]

Sound like you didn't get accepted yet this cycle and you're Asian.

loool
you're a regular sherlock holmes

 

[Hotshy]

loool
you're a regular sherlock holmes

👍

 

[Double Trouble]

What are medical schools supposed to do? Let in all asians and white people and not let any black or mexican people into medical school? What about black and mexican patients?

Personally I support weeding down indian asians.... the sharpest will get into medical school, and don't cut it wont. simple as that.

 

[zwitterion34]

What are medical schools supposed to do? Let in all asians and white people and not let any black or mexican people into medical school? What about black and mexican patients?

Personally I support weeding down indian asians.... the sharpest will get into medical school, and don't cut it wont. simple as that.[/QUOTE]

Easily said if you are URM. 😎