Are Asian Indians at a disadvantage?

[zwitterion34]

This URM business is analogous to awarding Asians an extra point for every shot that goes in basketball to promote diversity. So for a regular 2-pointer, he gets 3 and for a 3-point shot, he will get 4. How outrageous would that be? Not many Asian parents push their children to engage in sports over their pursuit of academics, thus they are disadvantaged and need a crutch. amirite?

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[Stumpyman]

Then perhaps URM's need to step up their game and try harder. The gap continues to widen because while URM's have the leisure to slack off, Asians have to perform even better among their peers because of this discrimination. Or perhaps some people were simply not meant to become doctors. You can't always become what you want to be without exerting any effort. If a person strives to become a physician, he or she should also put in the work that is needed.

I agree with your concept, but it's not just URMs stepping up and working hard. In general (seriously, in general), they come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, and lack a lot of resources that Asians and Caucasians have. And again, I know a lot of Asians/Caucasians come from poor socioeconomic backgrounds.

What we should do is help out the URMs and give them the resources to succeed-- not hand them easier admissions on a silver platter.

 

[Double Trouble]

I agree with your concept, but it's not just URMs stepping up and working hard. In general (seriously, in general), they come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, and lack a lot of resources that Asians and Caucasians have. And again, I know a lot of Asians/Caucasians come from poor socioeconomic backgrounds.

What we should do is help out the URMs and give them the resources to succeed-- not hand them easier admissions on a silver platter.

That's what the disadvantaged check box is for, right?

 

[Hotshy]

I think the best system for disadvantaged applicants would be to go by socio-economic level. Because there are also Asian and Caucasians that come from poor backgrounds that are not cut any slack. It is also known the African Americans and Hispanics are over-represented in the lower socio-economic levels. Thus a system that strictly went by income/SES would account still account for the barriers that hispanics and african americans face, while also addressing that asians and caucasians may also come from a disadvantaged background, I hope the LCME has at least given this idea a thought.

 

[Stumpyman]

That's what the disadvantaged check box is for, right?

Read again please. I said if a group of people is from a poorer background, you don't hand them easier admissions, you help give them the resources they need to succeed.

And that is NOT what the disadvantaged check box is for.

 

[zwitterion34]

That's what the disadvantaged check box is for, right?

I don't think this box applies to Asians because there are already numerous disadvantaged Asian students who studied hard and did well.

 

[zwitterion34]

A middle class AA has lower expections than a lower class Asian.

 

[zwitterion34]

Double Trouble why do you play on both sides of the fence?

AA is stupid, why judge a candidates worth based on his/her race? Why not just see who has the better MCAT GPA ECs etc?

Does the kid who grew up in the projects and worked extremely hard to get into college and get good grades deserve to have his effort underminded because of AA? I mean, people will just see him as someone who got into medical school based off his race instead of realizing all of the hurdles he had to jump over to get in.

People should stop using race as a crutch.

This is from http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=892226&page=4

 

[typicalindian]

I think the best system for disadvantaged applicants would be to go by socio-economic level. Because there are also Asian and Caucasians that come from poor backgrounds that are not cut any slack. It is also known the African Americans and Hispanics are over-represented in the lower socio-economic levels. Thus a system that strictly went by income/SES would account still account for the barriers that hispanics and african americans face, while also addressing that asians and caucasians make also come from a disadvantaged background, I hope the LCME has at least given this idea a thought.

Honestly this is the most sound suggestion I've read in this thread.

 

[Stumpyman]

Double Trouble why do you play on both sides of the fence?



This is from http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=892226&page=4

:troll:

(double calls out many posters with a random one line sentiment suggesting we are wrong on some issue, then never backs anything up).

 

[tantacles]

:troll:

Trolls have the best candy.

 

[Double Trouble]

Double Trouble why do you play on both sides of the fence?



This is from http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=892226&page=4

Lol I just got called out by hSDN. I actually thought of this post before I posted but I didn't think anyone would be neurotic enough to hunt it down.

I disagree with AA. I agree with URM. Thats not the same side of the fence. As far as the disadvantaged check box, I thought it reflected your economic status as well as where you grew up. And if you think we can hand out all URMs in america "resources" effectively, you are more naive than I thought.

I'm sorry stumpy, I'll be sure never to double call out someone else in my life again. I can't tell you how much your post opened my eyes and enlightened me.

Also, trolls do have the best candy.

 

[Megatron2016]

Avoiding joining in on this conversation because I want to avoid stooping down to the level of the some of the discourse here.

That said, here is a pdf from aamc on the "Diversity of U.S. Medical Students by Parental Income". It's quite staggering. Note that students with parents in the top quintile of incomes (20%) make up about half of all medical students, while students with parents in the bottom 20% of incomes make up a tiny percentage.

One thing I will say, and I hope most of you agree with me, is that given equal talent, hard work, and good intentions, it is MUCH MUCH easier for the students coming the top 20% to construct perfect applications than it is for students in the bottom 20%. If you look the same on paper as one of these applicants and you are from the top 20% and he is from the bottom 20%, I think we know who should (and probably will) be getting that offer.

Now, bringing this back to race.......
....not going there today!

https://www.aamc.org/download/102338/data/aibvol8no1.pdf

EDIT: Figures 2 &3 are probably what you want to look at.

 

[Double Trouble]

:troll:

(double calls out many posters with a random one line sentiment suggesting we are wrong on some issue, then never backs anything up).

Oh and you are wrong frosch, I'm not a troll.

 

[sibitrum]

That said, here is a pdf from aamc on the "Diversity of U.S. Medical Students by Parental Income". It's quite staggering. Note that students with parents in the top quintile of incomes (20%) make up about half of all medical students, while students with parents in the bottom 20% of incomes make up a tiny percentage.

Have you ever considered that parents who are high SES got there, at least in part, because they are smart and hard working. Furthermore, would it be a huge stretch to say that these traits might be passed on to their offspring through a genetic mechanism? Now, obviously, coming from a higher SES will give people advantages, on average. However, you cannot blithely interpret these statistics as being purely problematic, when they are caused (again, to some extent) by heritable characteristics.

 

[Stumpyman]

Lol I just got called out by hSDN. I actually thought of this post before I posted but I didn't think anyone would be neurotic enough to hunt it down.

I disagree with AA. I agree with URM. Thats not the same side of the fence. As far as the disadvantaged check box, I thought it reflected your economic status as well as where you grew up. And if you think we can hand out all URMs in america "resources" effectively, you are more naive than I thought.

I'm sorry stumpy, I'll be sure never to double call out someone else in my life again. I can't tell you how much your post opened my eyes and enlightened me.

Also, trolls do have the best candy.

No no, please do call me out. I don't mind having conflicted views with someone, but just back it up with your own insight.

Oh and you are wrong frosch, I'm not a troll.

Frosch? If you mean frosh, then just to be clear, you do know I'm not a freshman, right?

 

[Megatron2016]

Have you ever considered that parents who are high SES got there, at least in part, because they are smart and hard working. Furthermore, would it be a huge stretch to say that these traits might be passed on to their offspring through a genetic mechanism? Now, obviously, coming from a higher SES will give people advantages, on average. However, you cannot blithely interpret these statistics as being purely problematic, when they are caused (again, to some extent) by heritable characteristics.

While I believe there is a genetic component to intelligence, I seriously doubt it would explain that large a discrepancy.

Secondly, high paying jobs does not necessarily correlate consistently with intelligence.

Lastly, medical school admissions is not a reward for parents' smarts and success at earning and accumulating wealth. It's about using the information available to try and select and train the physician workforce that will best serve the country moving forward.

 

[zwitterion34]

Avoiding joining in on this conversation because I want to avoid stooping down to the level of the some of the discourse here.

^Please refrain from joining in on this conversation then.. Why do you contradict yourself.

 

[VitaminZero]

What are medical schools supposed to do? Let in all asians and white people and not let any black or mexican people into medical school? What about black and mexican patients?

Personally I support weeding down indian asians.... the sharpest will get into medical school, and don't cut it wont. simple as that.

You mean the same med school admissions does with everyone else?
It's generally accepted that if you are accepted into med school, you already ARE sharper than the ones who didn't. Or at least more likely to be a successful physician.

 

[Megatron2016]

^Please refrain from joining in on this conversation then.. Why do you contradict yourself.

Well there was a comment directly at me (see above), so I figured I would break my vow and put forth an opinion. Thanks for caring and being so invested, though.

 

[phltz]

I'll counter your flawed logic using your flawed logic - "Is it really so hard to believe that AAs are, on average, more competitive and the medical school admissions system is such that AAs are at a competitive disadvantage during the process?"

Nonetheless, that was actually overkill since you essentially answered your own question before you even asked it.

So you're saying that because the data is inconclusive, we can't prove that adcoms are behaving appropriately, so we should assume that they are unfairly discriminating? Why not give them the benefit of the doubt?

 

[ronaldo23]

Not everything is a stat. We have applicants who are unable to speak intelligible English (thick accents). We have applicants who are unable to articulate why they wish to be physicians other than they don't wish to be engineers or because it is a long family tradition going back many generations.

o cool, so Indians and Asians aren't really being discriminated against; they just tend to be the least articulate, thickest accented and pressured to go into medicine more so than every other ethnic group....glad ya cleared that up.

 

[varsityblue]

Why wouldn't they be? We were discriminated against in the college admissions process, no? It's competitive for everyone but especially so for Indian-Americans. I think the key to doing well in the process is getting slightly higher stats than the average matriculant at your dream med school, crossing your fingers, and hoping for the best.

 

[Itsame]

Yea, what about black and mexican patients? Being of the same race as a patient does not mean you can relate to them any better than a person of a different race. Adcoms preaching this are doing so for sake of supporting the flawed AA that is rampant in school admissions. Whoever said that getting rid of AA will not let black and mexican people into medical school? Like you said, "the sharpest will get into medical."

I believe by 'Mexican', what you meant to say was "Hispanic" or "Latino/a"?

Seeing as we're in a thread about not stereotyping applicants, thought I'd throw that out there....

 

[sibitrum]

While I believe there is a genetic component to intelligence, I seriously doubt it would explain that large a discrepancy.

Secondly, high paying jobs does not necessarily correlate consistently with intelligence.

Lastly, medical school admissions is not a reward for parents' smarts and success at earning and accumulating wealth. It's about using the information available to try and select and train the physician workforce that will best serve the country moving forward.

1) I agree. My point is how can you determine on an individual basis why someone has lower stats, ecs, etc. You can't and that's why I think it's a problem to have such overarching policies.

2) Of course it correlates. Again, the question is how much and through which causal mechanisms.

3) I never said this.

 

[sibitrum]

I believe by 'Mexican', what you meant to say was "Hispanic" or "Latino/a"?

Seeing as we're in a thread about not stereotyping applicants, thought I'd throw that out there....

What's wrong with saying mexican in this context? Just as with "asian indians", people in this thread have been talking about specific ethnic groups.

 

[MossyFiber]

o cool, so Indians and Asians aren't really being discriminated against; they just tend to be the least articulate, thickest accented and pressured to go into medicine more so than every other ethnic group....glad ya cleared that up.

But it IS true. When I talk to an Asian premed, more often than not, they're mainly interested in becoming a doctor because that's what their PARENTS want them to do. I don't think we should necessarily make it easy for Asian students to get in because the best doctors want to be doctors for themselves, not because their parents told them to be. Same goes for Indians.

 

[Double Trouble]

But it IS true. When I talk to an Asian premed, more often than not, they're mainly interested in becoming a doctor because that's what their PARENTS want them to do. I don't think we should necessarily make it easy for Asian students to get in because the best doctors want to be doctors for themselves, not because their parents told them to be. Same goes for Indians.

There is some truth in this

 

[zwitterion34]

But it IS true. When I talk to an Asian premed, more often than not, they're mainly interested in becoming a doctor because that's what their PARENTS want them to do. I don't think we should necessarily make it easy for Asian students to get in because the best doctors want to be doctors for themselves, not because their parents told them to be. Same goes for Indians.

Why can't the selection process entail merit instead of skin color or race? Asians should be held to the same standard. Also if certain aspects such as disadvantages need to be considered, consider the SES not race or skin color.

 

[MossyFiber]

Because if mom and dad make you study for the MCAT because they want you to be a doctor, and you come from a family that allows you to take MCAT classes and buy expensive review books, and you're in an environment that is extremely academic, chances are you will have good MCAT scores. Chances are you'll also have good ECs and a good GPA. However, you still won't be becoming a doctor for the right reasons.

 

[zwitterion34]

Because if mom and dad make you study for the MCAT because they want you to be a doctor, and you come from a family that allows you to take MCAT classes and buy expensive review books, and you're in an environment that is extremely academic, chances are you will have good MCAT scores. Chances are you'll also have good ECs and a good GPA. However, you still won't be becoming a doctor for the right reasons.

That is really subjective and open to interpretations. I think the admissions committee is smart enough to see the character of the person. I do not think Asians not having the right reasons is a problem but rather there are so many Asians with the right reasons that is the problem. With the current system of admissions, where admissions is based on the color of one's skin, this prevents many Asians with the right reason from entering the field of medicine to give way to other minority members with the wrong reason.

 

[LizzyM]

Economic diversity in an academic institution (med school, grad school, undergrad, etc) is desirable but from a pedagogic viewpoint racial diversity is also desirable. It doesn't have to be, and shouldn't be either/or . Having a medical school class made up of Asians of various economic strata would be entirely possible but not desirable. Likewise, a class of only white students of various SES is possible given the number of white applicants but that is not desirable.

Furthermore, racial diversity in the faculty of these institutions is desirable and racial diversity within the professions (law, medicine, clergy) is desirable as well. We can't achieve diversity within the academy and in the professions without starting with the schools themselves.

Is the black applicant whose father was a professional athlete undeserving of admission because he was born with rich? (hypothetical question, I don't know an applicant who fits this description) Would such an applicant bring an unusual perspective to small group discussions and to patient care settings?

 

[notbobtrustme]

There's a lot of ****ing crying in this thread.

Man up, get better stats and apply hard. Simple as that. If you want life on a platter, go play the lotto and hope for the best.

This coming from a scary brown person.

 

[zwitterion34]

Economic diversity in an academic institution (med school, grad school, undergrad, etc) is desirable but from a pedagogic viewpoint racial diversity is also desirable. It doesn't have to be, and shouldn't be either/or . Having a medical school class made up of Asians of various economic strata would be entirely possible but not desirable. Likewise, a class of only white students of various SES is possible given the number of white applicants but that is not desirable.

Furthermore, racial diversity in the faculty of these institutions is desirable and racial diversity within the professions (law, medicine, clergy) is desirable as well. We can't achieve diversity within the academy and in the professions without starting with the schools themselves.

Is the black applicant whose father was a professional athlete undeserving of admission because he was born with rich? (hypothetical question, I don't know an applicant who fits this description) Would such an applicant bring an unusual perspective to small group discussions and to patient care settings?

Will you continue to hold this view if the significance of achieving racial diversity becomes debunked by a reputable study? Or will you simply disregard this study?

Affirmative action has been around for many years. If the people who are currently benefitting do NOT work harder, this situation becomes like a friend who borrows money from you but refuses to reimburse you. You will only be a fool in continuing to let this "friend" borrow your money. Likewise I think it is foolish to continue a program that is clearly broken. This current system fuels excuses and laziness instead of stressing hard work and effort.

 

[LizzyM]

Will you continue to hold this view if the significance of achieving racial diversity becomes debunked by a reputable study? Or will you simply disregard this study?

Do you have a citation to such a study? Bring it.

 

[zwitterion34]

Do you have a citation to such a study? Bring it.

I do not at this time. It was a hypothetical situation.

 

[zwitterion34]

I was merely trying to ask if there was such a study published from a reputable source, would you be turning a blind-eye and completely disregard it? Analogous to the affirmative action situation where the system is broken but we still refuse to change it or bring about any necessary modifications to this faulty system.

 

[kpcrew]

There's a lot of ****ing crying in this thread.

Man up, get better stats and apply hard. Simple as that. If you want life on a platter, go play the lotto and hope for the best.

This coming from a scary brown person.

great post

 

[zwitterion34]

Do you have a citation to such a study? Bring it.

But I do have an example. http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/article/24900

This is a story about Crystal Denmon. Can you see the difference of attitude? Instead of promoting laziness, this woman is determined to chase her dream. THIS should be the attitude; not an attitude of entitlement or a way to cheat the system.

 

[Megatron2016]

There's a lot of ****ing crying in this thread.

Man up, get better stats and apply hard. Simple as that. If you want life on a platter, go play the lotto and hope for the best.

This coming from a scary brown person.

+1

AA is a legit issue, but a waste of time to worry about as a premed. People should invest their time more wisely than hitting up every AA thread that pops up on SDN and become even better applicants than they already are. If you are already killing that, put your energy into better hobbies or into the opposite sex. AA isn't going away by the time you apply and would make a poor choice as a topic of discussion during an interview.

 

[Prohok]

What about other ethnicity that falls under the umbrella of Asian that are underrepresented?
What I mean is Asian such as Cambodian, Thai, Laos etc south east Asian and those pacific islanders. I know Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Indian & Vietnamese etc are ORM but what about those of us who came from third world countries that is still considered Asian...

 

[LizzyM]

But I do have an example. http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/article/24900

This is a story about Crystal Denmon. Can you see the difference of attitude? Instead of promoting laziness, this woman is determined to chase her dream. THIS should be the attitude; not an attitude of entitlement or a way to cheat the system.

From that article:

Dr. Neil Parker, senior associate dean for student affairs and graduate medical education at UCLA's David Geffen School of Medicine

""Medical schools are not just looking at GPA and MCAT scores," Parker said. "We want a physician or dentist who looks like the face of the California we serve."

"Another outgrowth of the 2000 diversity report is a committee of all California medical school — public and private — admission deans that meets twice a year. The deans have made increasing diversity a statewide priority. "We should be all working together to bring more students to California," Parker said."

----

I am offended by your suggestion that most URM candidates do not work hard and that Crystal is an exception.

 

[yellowfish]

Riiight. You mad?

Are you suggesting that this does not occur? Or that I have a personal investment in this issue, particularly that I was rejected from a medical school?

Rest assured that this does occur, and you'd have to be naive not to admit it. I haven't applied to medical school yet, so also be assured that I don't have a personal bias in the issue.

Really good use of "U mad bro?" there. I'm impressed.

 

[zwitterion34]

I am offended by your suggestion that most URM candidates do not work hard and that Crystal is an exception.

I know plenty. Parents are white Mexican-Americans (2nd generation). Claims to be Hispanic despite not being able to even speak conversational level of Spanish. Last name is Martinez

 

[LizzyM]

What about other ethnicity that falls under the umbrella of Asian that are underrepresented?
What I mean is Asian such as Cambodian, Thai, Laos etc south east Asian and those pacific islanders. I know Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Indian & Vietnamese etc are ORM but what about those of us who came from third world countries that is still considered Asian...

The AAMC leaves it up to each school to determine what groups are Underrepresented in Medicine in their community (however they define community). If there are almost no Thai in a particular state, the state medical school may not feel a need to identify Thai applicants as URM. On the other hand, if there are health disparities in a specific community that might be helped by having more medical students and more physicians who are members of that community, then a case might be made to consider members of that group to be URM in that location. It isn't one-size fits all for the entire US anymore. Keep in mind, too, that schools must answer to the LCME (accrediting body) about how they have achieved diversity in the student body and in the faculty.

 

[Megatron2016]

I know plenty. Parents are white Mexican-Americans (2nd generation). Claims to be Hispanic despite not being able to even speak conversational level of Spanish. Last name is Martinez

Excellent reasoning and sampling methods!

 

[zwitterion34]

Excellent reasoning and sampling methods!

Thanks , but I am merely a student, data collection is going to stem from empirical observation at this time. Due to URM advantage, people will attempt to squeeze out every bit of benefit they can get.

 

[pappadiddy]

Remember, GPA and MCAT are mattering less and less. Schools are placing a higher emphasis on your personal statement, secondaries, LORs and your interview (especially MMI).

I am in charge of hiring interns at our office every semester and I can honestly tell you that I won't pick one intern over another because one has a 3.8 and the other has a 3.6. However, I will place a higher emphasis on their personal statement, and their interview. As far as personal statement goes, I will place a preference to students who come from a disadvantaged or unique background. A large percentage of them in (San Joaquin Valley, CA) are African American/Black or Latino/Hispanic/Mexican. There are many poor White and Asian people in our community as well, just a lower percentage of them. For the record, our last two interns have been White (one disadvantaged 4.0, one affluent 3.5). Both had great personal statements and interviewed extremely well.

Finally there is the interview, if you have a 3.9, but are socially awkward, you might not get accepted over the student with a 3.7 who actually has a personality.

My stats: URM, ESL, very disadvantaged both financially and where I grew up. 3.45 28R. 5 LORs, A lot of hospital volunteer experience, many EC and leadership roles including founding two major student groups on campus.
Successful professional career in a non-medical field (unique). A lot of public speaking (came in handy for interviews).
14 Apps, 6 Interviews (1 declined), 1 acceptance (USC), 1 waitlist (UCSD), 3 still waiting.

The point I'm trying to make is that (3.45 28R) is only 7 characters long compared to your whole personal statement, secondaries, LORs and your interview. Medical schools are looking for more than stats. Sorry for the novel, but I can clear anything up if you have any questions.

 

[libraryismyhome]

I know plenty. Parents are white Mexican-Americans (2nd generation). Claims to be Hispanic despite not being able to even speak conversational level of Spanish. Last name is Martinez

I know another one too. But her last name is English. Her father is caucasian and a lawyer while her mother is from one of caribbean islands. She comes from upper middle class family.

Her GPA was below 3.6 with downward trend having multiple Cs in orgo and physics. Her MCAT was 26. She had no research experience and had less than 100 hours of volunteering. Her personal statement was about her sick "abuela"(major cliche) but I have never seen her calling her father "papi." She got into two out of state schools where the average MCATs were 31 and 33. These schools stress heavily on community service and serving the underserved, but she wants to do orthopedics and open a private practice.

 

[sibitrum]

Do you have a citation to such a study? Bring it.

"A Systemic Analysis of Affirmative Action" by Richard Sandler in Stanford Law Review
http://www.law.berkeley.edu/faculty/rubinfeldd/SanderFINAL.pdf

Here is a well thought out statistical analysis in the context of law school admissions. It demonstrates that, because affirmative action puts people into a more competitive school than they would have otherwise attended, minorities have higher attrition rates, lower bar passage rates, and resulting challenges in finding a job. In the absence of affirmative action, there would actually be more blacks working successfully as lawyers in the US.

While this particular effect in medicine may well not be as large, this shows just one problem with affirmative action.

Originally Posted by zwitterion34
I know plenty. Parents are white Mexican-Americans (2nd generation). Claims to be Hispanic despite not being able to even speak conversational level of Spanish. Last name is Martinez
Megatron2016:

Excellent reasoning and sampling methods!

Other studies have looked into other negative effects with respect to AA. For example, see Affirmative Action: An Empirical Study, which shows that there actually is a systemic change in how people reclassify themselves to benefit from AA. Further, those who are actually in a position (motivated, completed the requisite education, etc.) to take advantage of the programs, tend to be middle to higher SES minorities.