Are Chapman's points real?

[Didierdrogba]

Granted, I think many things we learn in OPP are quite useful to some extent, and I quite enjoy lumbar, thoracic, and cervical diagnosis and treatment, but other things in OPP are frankly a little bit out there. Has anyone ever felt Chapman's points? They seem to be completely made up, and why is this even being taught if there is no evidence supporting its existence? Don't you think things like this will only undermine our credibility as osteopathic physicians?

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[bocciball]

They are not real. Don't take them seriously. Memorize them the evening before your exams and then forget them until the next exam.

 

[DocEspana]

Are Chapman's points real?

maybe

 

[Didierdrogba]

maybe

lol at your .gif

 

[ensuii]

lol at your .gif

I'm going to have to agree...exceptional .gif selection.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Don't you think things like this will only undermine our credibility as osteopathic physicians?

To a certain degree, yes.


I also like having hvla and stretching (muscle energy sounds too "out there") done on me. We did chapman's a couple weeks ago and I didn't feel anything. Felt almost as silly as cranial lab. Personally, I don't believe in chapman's and I'll leave it at that.

 

[Didierdrogba]

To a certain degree, yes.


I also like having hvla and stretching (muscle energy sounds too "out there") done on me. We did chapman's a couple weeks ago and I didn't feel anything. Felt almost as silly as cranial lab. Personally, I don't believe in chapman's and I'll leave it at that.

Agreed with the cranial part, it's pure snake oil

I think HVLA feels good, but it doesn't really do much. Stretching, counterstrain and muscle energy are acceptable for me. Muscle energy is actually also used in physical therapy, but the name "muscle energy" sounds really silly.

 

[NeurologyDO]

I have felt a chapman's point in a case of appendicitis. Right around T11 posterior. Saw the patient again a few weeks post-op, it was gone. I didn't "believe" in chapman's points before that, but now I have to say it looks like there is some truth to them.
I think something important to remember is that this isn't one of those things that 100% of people are going to have. If you examine 100 people with acute appendicitis then only a handful might actually have a palpable Chapman's. Those same 100 people will also have different manifestations of their appendicitis. Not all of them will have McBurneys, for instance.

Also, OMM and the necessary skills take a lot of time to cultivate. As with any skill, a student is unlikely to pick up on something that someone who has practiced OMM for years will. And just because you can't pick up on it, doesn't mean it's not there.

You wouldn't expect a 1st year radiology resident to pick up on very minor changes on an xray, for example, but their attending will. But it would be rather silly for that same resident to say those changes don't exist, right?

 

[Didierdrogba]

I have felt a chapman's point in a case of appendicitis. Right around T11 posterior. Saw the patient again a few weeks post-op, it was gone. I didn't "believe" in chapman's points before that, but now I have to say it looks like there is some truth to them.

I think the problem with Chapman's points, amongst other things, is exactly this. We hear this kind of n=1 story all the time, and i do not doubt for a second that Chapman's points "might" occur. But there is really no statistical basis to these claims.

 

[Bacchus]

lol at your .gif

The best part of this is he looks like my cardiology attending from 3rd year.

 

[Bacchus]

To a certain degree, yes.


I also like having hvla and stretching (muscle energy sounds too "out there") done on me. We did chapman's a couple weeks ago and I didn't feel anything. Felt almost as silly as cranial lab. Personally, I don't believe in chapman's and I'll leave it at that.

This plays into why I don't do a lot of OMM, but will still do it. I've found, those that have the indications for it, benefit the least.

We OMM each other in my group of friends fairly frequently (2-3X a month). However, we're healthy young adults and that's all we need. We might have created a subluxation of a vertebrae or overused a muscle. We'd get better with time, but OMM helps it return to normal more quickly.

My patients I see in the office who are indicated for OMM have chronic conditions that have existed for 1, 5, 10 or even 20 years. One treatment might provide temporary relief, but without lifestyle and body modification (posture, weight loss, stretching, being aware of your working/living/whatever environment) the problem is going to return. Most patients I ask if OMM worked before tell me they had temporary relief for up to a few days. They get disheartened. Many can't afford to see the OMMtologist every (other) week so I suggest medications and the above modifications but often don't necessarily throw OMM out there because I know its not going to fix the problem for a lot of people.

 

[MedicineMike]

No

 

[Osteotastic]

Are Chapman's points real? ... good one

Did you know that the Chapman's point for the vagina is on the posterior thigh? ... The point for the tongue on rib 2 .... The point for the eyes is on the humeral head... or was that inside the humorous head... In my case definitely the latter : )

 

[docnotsopc]

I ran a fun experiment on other DO students who I know bleed OMM and claim everything works.
Before they had memorized the chapman's points, I knew a few of these students who had the cold. I claimed to be doing Lung chapmans points when in reality I was doing adrenal chapmans points. Sure enough, they all claimed their lungs felt better after I finished. One of them claimed they felt like, and i quote , "they could run a marathon"

When i told them after that I had lied to them about the points, they claimed it still worked and one of them even had the nerve to claim by doing the Adrenal chapmans point, I was affecting the output of cortisol which suppressed their shortness of breath and lung inflammation

Lesson learned: If you drink the koolaid, you will believe anything

 

[sylvanthus]

I ran a fun experiment on other DO students who I know bleed OMM and claim everything works.
Before they had memorized the chapman's points, I knew a few of these students who had the cold. I claimed to be doing Lung chapmans points when in reality I was doing adrenal chapmans points. Sure enough, they all claimed their lungs felt better after I finished. One of them claimed they felt like, and i quote , "they could run a marathon"

When i told them after that I had lied to them about the points, they claimed it still worked and one of them even had the nerve to claim by doing the Adrenal chapmans point, I was affecting the output of cortisol which suppressed their shortness of breath and lung inflammation

Lesson learned: If you drink the koolaid, you will believe anything

Lol thats awesome and I can see people falling for it.

 

[Didierdrogba]

I ran a fun experiment on other DO students who I know bleed OMM and claim everything works.
Before they had memorized the chapman's points, I knew a few of these students who had the cold. I claimed to be doing Lung chapmans points when in reality I was doing adrenal chapmans points. Sure enough, they all claimed their lungs felt better after I finished. One of them claimed they felt like, and i quote , "they could run a marathon"

When i told them after that I had lied to them about the points, they claimed it still worked and one of them even had the nerve to claim by doing the Adrenal chapmans point, I was affecting the output of cortisol which suppressed their shortness of breath and lung inflammation

Lesson learned: If you drink the koolaid, you will believe anything

they should run for AOA leadership

 

[thepoopologist]

Learning them helped me stimulate the nipple of a prostitute. She did not charge me henceforth.

 

[acesup123]

My grandfather was having an MI the other day and instead of calling 911 I treated his MI with chapman points.

 

[Didierdrogba]

My grandfather was having an MI the other day and instead of calling 911 I treated his MI with chapman points.

you bring up a good point. In addition to fixing Chapman's points, a true osteopath should not forget about doing a seated flexion test on a pt presenting with MI.

[YOUTUBE]y5FdDwbtdjU[/YOUTUBE]

 

[NeuroLAX]

My grandfather was having an MI the other day and instead of calling 911 I treated his MI with chapman points.

...said no one, EVER!

 

[Slane]

I've never felt one, just like I've never felt cranial movement. But I chalk up most of the "extremist" OMT to placebo effect personally.

 

[kedrin]

I still don't understand why the koolaid drinkers have such a strong hold over the future of osteopathic medicine....

 

[docnotsopc]

I still don't understand why the koolaid drinkers have such a strong hold over the future of osteopathic medicine....

I know, its unfortunate

But let me ask you this, would you really put up with all the BS (osteopathic specific BS) to work your way up the ladder to a position of great power? I know I wouldn't put up with it lol

 

[playaodamonth]

I know a lot of people talk about drinking the kool-aid and what not...but are there any OMM techniques out there you guys believe in? not to cure disease or anything like that, but just for minor back pain and things of that nature?

 

[JeetKuneDo]

I know a lot of people talk about drinking the kool-aid and what not...but are there any OMM techniques out there you guys believe in? not to cure disease or anything like that, but just for minor back pain and things of that nature?

Muscle energy, since it's a ridiculous way of saying stretching.

Myofascial release and soft tissue, which are both basically massages.

 

[thepoopologist]

These days, when I pet my dog on the head, he likes it better. He tells me that my hands are like a puppy's touch.

 

[Didierdrogba]

These days, when I pet my dog on the head, he likes it better. He tells me that my hands are like a puppy's touch.

Have you ever tried to diagnose your dog's somatic dysfunctions and do HVLA? Many dogs have T3-6 N SrRl

 

[se20001984]

yes they are real

they have been known to cure cancer for centuries, but big pharma has been trying to cover this up

 

[docnotsopc]

I know a lot of people talk about drinking the kool-aid and what not...but are there any OMM techniques out there you guys believe in? not to cure disease or anything like that, but just for minor back pain and things of that nature?

I think for basic muscle problems..... sure a few forms of OMM might work. Especially in a situation where a patient might not be able to take opioids, NSAIDS etc . haha i dont really think it fair that we as DOs can charge hundreds of dollars for these treatments, but i guess thats just the way it goes

 

[Didierdrogba]

I think for basic muscle problems..... sure a few forms of OMM might work. Especially in a situation where a patient might not be able to take opioids, NSAIDS etc . haha i dont really think it fair that we as DOs can charge hundreds of dollars for these treatments, but i guess thats just the way it goes

Hey to be fair, if we don't charge those hundreds of dollars, someone else will

 

[Trogghunter]

You know whats not fair? 7% interest on my loans. I'll make an omm moonlight service and pay some 2nd years to go in my place.

 

[se20001984]

whats sad is that DO bashing has now floated over into the actual med forums...

and the fact that the actual DO students are the ones involved

 

[Didierdrogba]

whats sad is that DO bashing has now floated over into the actual med forums...

and the fact that the actual DO students are the ones involved

how are we bashing DO's? All we are saying is that parts of OMT = ridiculous

 

[docnotsopc]

You know whats not fair? 7% interest on my loans. I'll make an omm moonlight service and pay some 2nd years to go in my place.

ya I cant argue with that logic. When you put it that way it doesnt seem so bad haha

whats sad is that DO bashing has now floated over into the actual med forums...

and the fact that the actual DO students are the ones involved

Thats because most of us have
A) experienced OMM
B) Know "how these techniques work"
C) Know how the body ACTUALLY works and what happens when something goes wrong, which contradicts B based on.... oh you know, medicine.
D) May or may not have direct experience from knowing 4th year DO students/ residents about some of the discrimination that goes on against DOs. (although this is off topic and not what the other med students here are talking about)

how are we bashing DO's? All we are saying is that parts of OMT = ridiculous

I agree. The two claims are separate . Us saying OMT = useless does not necessarily equal "our medical degree is worthless because all we have to treat patients is OMT"

 

[JeetKuneDo]

whats sad is that DO bashing has now floated over into the actual med forums...

and the fact that the actual DO students are the ones involved

Who is DO bashing? This is actually a great thread to vent off some steam about certain aspects of omm education. We all go through it, so we all laugh about it. You'll understand.

 

[thepoopologist]

You know whats not fair? 7% interest on my loans. I'll make an omm moonlight service and pay some 2nd years to go in my place.

This is not a bad idea.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

I'm actually gonna break ranks here and say that while most OMM techniques we learned didn't seem to do jack, when people practiced the Chapman points techniques on me I actually felt like something was happening (although that 'something' amounted to little more than tingling).

 

[Osteotastic]

I'm actually gonna break ranks here and say that while most OMM techniques we learned didn't seem to do jack, when people practiced the Chapman points techniques on me I actually felt like something was happening (although that 'something' amounted to little more than tingling).

Ya know, come to think of it ... I felt something happening with the Chapman points the day we learned em too. I also really felt like she and I really had a vibe goin on there in the OMM lab ... ya know chemistry like. Unfortunately, when I asked her out she told me to go and find a Champan point I had never heard of before with my thumb...

Ehhhyyyy...... Its all about numbers am I right?

 

[NeuroLAX]

I haven't found a single Chapman's point on anyone. What pisses me off the most is that half of these points are in logical locations, while the other half just leave me scratching my head thinking.... um, ok?

Have they even found any histological evidence for these points yet?

 

[Didierdrogba]

I haven't found a single Chapman's point on anyone. What pisses me off the most is that half of these points are in logical locations, while the other half just leave me scratching my head thinking.... um, ok?

Have they even found any histological evidence for these points yet?

If they did, they'd probably advertise like crazy

 

[Consigliere]

Granted, I think many things we learn in OPP are quite useful to some extent, and I quite enjoy lumbar, thoracic, and cervical diagnosis and treatment, but other things in OPP are frankly a little bit out there. Has anyone ever felt Chapman's points? They seem to be completely made up, and why is this even being taught if there is no evidence supporting its existence? Don't you think things like this will only undermine our credibility as osteopathic physicians?

Chapman's points are as real as the cranial rhythmic impulse.

 

[se20001984]

will the real Chapman please stand up?

 

[EuroDoc]

Would you guys clarify things for the European dude in the room:

Is osteopathy school = medical school + chiropractic + acupuncture = medical school + (largely) mumbo-jumbo?

Even if they're taught a bit mumbo-jumbo at DO school, they largely follow the same curriculum as MD schools, no?

Chapman's points sound like BS.

 

[primadonna22274]

Would you guys clarify things for the European dude in the room:

Is osteopathy school = medical school + chiropractic + acupuncture = medical school + (largely) mumbo-jumbo?

Even if they're taught a bit mumbo-jumbo at DO school, they largely follow the same curriculum as MD schools, no?

Chapman's points sound like BS.

Pretty much.
I would say you have it figured out.
In fairness, the medicine is hugely dominant and the alternative stuff very minimal. There are gurus who believe in it fiercely.
I will use the parts of OMM that I like and can understand...the rest, not so much.

 

[Osteotastic]

In thinking it over, this actually may explain why when I was 10 years old and my little sister made a voodo doll of me, when she tried to poke me in the eye - using the doll, nothing happened but a few days later when she poked the doll's shoulder my eye hurt. You see, she was hitting the eye point on the humeral head. Great Scott! It all makes sense now!

 

[Siggy]

Agreed with the cranial part, it's pure snake oil

I think HVLA feels good, but it doesn't really do much. Stretching, counterstrain and muscle energy are acceptable for me. Muscle energy is actually also used in physical therapy, but the name "muscle energy" sounds really silly.

I actually like to combine them. If I'm treating someone, often what I'll do is soft tissue->ME->HVLA. ST just makes everything easier, ME is more long termish, and HVLA is more instantaneous relief. If it's purely a muscle issue, than I'll use ME or counterstrain.

 

[Siggy]

you bring up a good point. In addition to fixing Chapman's points, a true osteopath should not forget about doing a seated flexion test on a pt presenting with MI.

[YOUTUBE]y5FdDwbtdjU[/YOUTUBE]

The sad part is I have heard an OMM "expert" argue to use Chapman's points to differentiate cardiac from non-cardiac chest pain. FML

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Ya know, come to think of it ... I felt something happening with the Chapman points the day we learned em too. I also really felt like she and I really had a vibe goin on there in the OMM lab ... ya know chemistry like. Unfortunately, when I asked her out she told me to go and find a Champan point I had never heard of before with my thumb...

Ehhhyyyy...... Its all about numbers am I right?

I'm not saying the Chapman's point massage nonsense did anything clinically relevant.

 

[se20001984]

Chapman points are known to cause spontaneous combustion

 

[Oo Cipher oO]

I know a lot of people talk about drinking the kool-aid and what not...but are there any OMM techniques out there you guys believe in? not to cure disease or anything like that, but just for minor back pain and things of that nature?

Before med school I had real troubles with lower back back. I wasn't about to sit for long periods without piercing pain. I wouldn't be able to sleep when it got really bad. I was really worried that I wouldn't be able to handle long lectures sitting but OMM has changed that. As long as I get my weekly helping of ST-ME-HVLA I am rarely bothered by it. Everything in OMM for first year has been pretty good so far. I'm sure there will be some things I don't jive with but I like what I've learned so far.