Are DO schools "easier" to get into?

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[avatarftw]

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[mechanictodr]

The answer is YES!!! Who cares, either way you're a physician with the same rights and abilities. Move on and focus on doing your school work. I can't believe people even need to debate this issue.

 

[JaggerPlate]

The anecdotal GPA thing is in regards to my science GPA, not overall GPA. Thus, changing two grades had a big effect. (I wasn't a science major, also)

The issue with the lower MCAT MD schools is that their MCATs are very low. I'll list a few off the top of my head: The puerto rican medical schools (the MCAT is in English, kind of hard if English is not your native language. 🙄), Howard, Meharry, etc. I can't find the exact MCATs right now and need to sleep but the puerto rican med school averages are in the low 20s. (21, 22, around there)

Yes, there are many more MD schools so it should affect the overall MD average less.

If I am accepted by my state MD school (I'm waitlisted) I'll go MD but if not, I'll go to my state DO school. I'm still an MS-0 but can't figure out the profile thing.

AH science GPA, makes sense. Good luck with the waitlist!!

 

[womp]

You know, this MD/DO debate becomes silly when one realizes that nurse practitioners and physician associates [sic] are slowly taking over, especially if the health care reform bill passes.

They don't even go to medical school. Forget the MCAT, many don't even take the GRE, and several programs are now direct entry (requiring no previous clinical or nursing experience). Hell, they don't even have face-to-face interviews, and half their programs are online. They work 40 hours a week and get paid 6 figure salaries. If they clock in overtime, they make as much as most primary care physicians (who work far more than 40 hours a week). NPs and PAs get paid full salary right after graduating while getting on the job training, while doctors get paid $40k for 80 hours a week (minimum wage) during residency.

CVS runs commercials of "board certified" nurse practitioners for their Take Care Clinics. In a few years, when they all convert to DNPs (doctorate of nursing practice), the public will call them doctors.

 

[Dissected]

I think that comes from wikipedia, which is difficult to take too seriously. A counselor at DMU told me 28 (over the phone unfortunately, hahah sorry I do wish I had it in an email or something), and also a 3.7/3.66 is higher than I thought the GPA was so kind of a wash.

chinocochino is right on the money. Our MCAT was just over 27 and gpa was just above 3.7 (cum).

 

[Dissected]

s

You know, this MD/DO debate becomes silly when one realizes that nurse practitioners and physician associates [sic] are slowly taking over, especially if the health care reform bill passes.

They don't even go to medical school. Forget the MCAT, many don't even take the GRE, and several programs are now direct entry (requiring no previous clinical or nursing experience). Hell, they don't even have face-to-face interviews, and half their programs are online. They work 40 hours a week and get paid 6 figure salaries. If they clock in overtime, they make as much as most primary care physicians (who work far more than 40 hours a week). NPs and PAs get paid full salary right after graduating while getting on the job training, while doctors get paid $40k for 80 hours a week (minimum wage) during residency.

CVS runs commercials of "board certified" nurse practitioners for their Take Care Clinics. In a few years, when they all convert to DNPs (doctorate of nursing practice), the public will call them doctors.

It really doesn't matter what they call themselves. DNP's will still be mid-level care providers, no matter what the public perception is. Who cares what the average Joe percieves the heirarchy to be. The DNP's I've seen working in clinics and stuff know what they are doing up to a point (and they work very efficiently), but when things get hairy or a life is on the line, physicians will always be in charge. Some nurse practitioners have straight up scared me (asking me, an MS1 for advice...). Physicians will remain the ones in charge; if not because of respect, it will be because the nurse's will fold when any liability might have to fall into their lap.

Edit: and let the NP's have the CVS clinics. God knows I wouldn't want to be working out of a cramped room in the back of a CVS.

 

[womp]

s


It really doesn't matter what they call themselves. DNP's will still be mid-level care providers, no matter what the public perception is. Who cares what the average Joe percieves the heirarchy to be. The DNP's I've seen working in clinics and stuff know what they are doing up to a point (and they work very efficiently), but when things get hairy or a life is on the line, physicians will always be in charge. Some nurse practitioners have straight up scared me (asking me, an MS1 for advice...). Physicians will remain the ones in charge; if not because of respect, it will be because the nurse's will fold when any liability might have to fall into their lap.

Edit: and let the NP's have the CVS clinics. God knows I wouldn't want to be working out of a cramped room in the back of a CVS.

I wouldn't want to underestimate the nurse practitioners. If Primary Care Provider = NP in the eyes of the public, then I sure as hell wouldn't want to spend 7 years to become a primary care physician when the alternative is 2-3 years via direct entry NP or PA programs. The current health care bill equates a primary care provider as either a primary care physician or nurse practitioner (and does not distinguish their roles), and creates a gatekeeping system called the "medical home" which will be managed by said primary care provider. You have to be in a bubble not to see this as a direct turf challenge to primary care physicians. Currently there are more primary care physicians than NPs, but what happens when the public perception changes and NPs are seen as largely identical to the primary care physician (even in salary) but requiring far less effort and time to become one? Where else do you make 6-figures immediately after going to a no-name graduate school for 2 years? The number of NPs and NP schools will rise exponentially (like pharmacists in the last decade) and the primary care physicians would be left with managerial roles or forced to further specialize. This is Obama's solution to high health care costs: produce tons of NPs (with increasingly questionable qualifications as enrollment rises), saturate the market and lower prices.

In the recently released House health-reform bill, nurse practitioners (and physicians' assistants, another relatively new, but smaller, category of medical professionals who can perform medical procedures and often prescribe medication) are listed alongside doctors as primary-care providers. Nurse practitioners lobbied hard for this legislative language in meetings with White House health officials, including Nancy-Ann DeParle, Obama's health-reform czar. The nurse-practitioners lobby is hoping such federal recognition of the central role the profession can play in a revamped health system will exert pressure on states to ease restrictions.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1914222,00.html#ixzz0dTkQIoip​

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[chet]

I wouldn't want to underestimate the nurse practitioners. If Primary Care Provider = NP in the eyes of the public, then I sure as hell wouldn't want to spend 7 years to become a primary care physician when the alternative is 2-3 years via direct entry NP or PA programs. The current health care bill equates a primary care provider as either a primary care physician or nurse practitioner (and does not distinguish their roles), and creates a gatekeeping system called the "medical home" which will be managed by said primary care provider. You have to be in a bubble not to see this as a direct turf challenge to primary care physicians. Currently there are more primary care physicians than NPs, but what happens when the public perception changes and NPs are seen as largely identical to the primary care physician (even in salary) but requiring far less effort and time to become one? Where else do you make 6-figures immediately after going to a no-name graduate school for 2 years? The number of NPs and NP schools will rise exponentially (like pharmacists in the last decade) and the primary care physicians would be left with managerial roles or forced to further specialize. This is Obama's solution to high health care costs: produce tons of NPs (with increasingly questionable qualifications as enrollment rises), saturate the market and lower prices.

In the recently released House health-reform bill, nurse practitioners (and physicians' assistants, another relatively new, but smaller, category of medical professionals who can perform medical procedures and often prescribe medication) are listed alongside doctors as primary-care providers. Nurse practitioners lobbied hard for this legislative language in meetings with White House health officials, including Nancy-Ann DeParle, Obama's health-reform czar. The nurse-practitioners lobby is hoping such federal recognition of the central role the profession can play in a revamped health system will exert pressure on states to ease restrictions.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1914222,00.html#ixzz0dTkQIoip​

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While I can definitely see your point, and I have mixed feelings as to wether or not non physician providers should be working autonomously, I don't think the sky is falling yet. However, lets assume NP's and PA's are staging a takeover.

A PA needs to work under the license of a physician, to the extent of my experience this usually means that the physician is working side by side with the PA at all times (except in very rural situations, so I'm told). Even if a PA does work independently but still under a physician license, that PA required years of post PA school education from a physician, they are simply not prepared to be independent right out of school.

A NP is a little different, at least in my state they can work totally independent of a physician, however the same thing holds true regarding the on the job training they require from a physician. My overall point is that NP's and PA's require the assistance of physicians to be competent. That will always be the case, therefore primary care physicians will always be needed.

On a side note, can you blame the professions of PA's and NP's for attempting to dominate primary care, afterall physicians over the years have made it abundantly clear that only a third of them have any interest in the field. While the number of physicians in this country continue to increase, the number of primary care docs remains stagnant, PA's and NP's are filling the void out of necessity not greed.

 

[Dissected]

I wouldn't want to underestimate the nurse practitioners. If Primary Care Provider = NP in the eyes of the public, then I sure as hell wouldn't want to spend 7 years to become a primary care physician when the alternative is 2-3 years via direct entry NP or PA programs. The current health care bill equates a primary care provider as either a primary care physician or nurse practitioner (and does not distinguish their roles), and creates a gatekeeping system called the "medical home" which will be managed by said primary care provider. You have to be in a bubble not to see this as a direct turf challenge to primary care physicians. Currently there are more primary care physicians than NPs, but what happens when the public perception changes and NPs are seen as largely identical to the primary care physician (even in salary) but requiring far less effort and time to become one? Where else do you make 6-figures immediately after going to a no-name graduate school for 2 years? The number of NPs and NP schools will rise exponentially (like pharmacists in the last decade) and the primary care physicians would be left with managerial roles or forced to further specialize. This is Obama's solution to high health care costs: produce tons of NPs (with increasingly questionable qualifications as enrollment rises), saturate the market and lower prices.

Oh, the bill that just got blocked indefinitely, and might never get passed? hmm...

I see what you are saying but I guess I just don't see it playing out that way. Like I said before, let the NP's take care of the sniffles in the back of CVS or doing the jobs they have always been doing. They are filling a void like chet pointed out in the post above this one. If things get more serious and the NP has no answers the patients can and will find a physician.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Oh, the bill that just got blocked indefinitely, and might never get passed? hmm...

I see what you are saying but I guess I just don't see it playing out that way. Like I said before, let the NP's take care of the sniffles in the back of CVS or doing the jobs they have always been doing. They are filling a void like chet pointed out in the post above this one. If things get more serious and the NP has no answers the patients can and will find a physician.

That ****ty bill is done. Pelosi said she doesn't have the votes in the house to pass the senate bill, Obama said he doesn't want to jam anything through, nor does he think stuff should be done without Brown seated, etc.

 

[mechanictodr]

That ****ty bill is done. Pelosi said she doesn't have the votes in the house to pass the senate bill, Obama said he doesn't want to jam anything through, nor does he think stuff should be done without Brown seated, etc.

Sure hope so, that bill was crap. I hope that one day physicians will be free to practice just like electricians and plumbers, "You don't like my price? Feel free to go see Dr. Nick for some cheaper rates." Or like ancient greece, "Pay me 50% now and the other 50% if you live."

Seriously just joking guys, but I am glad the bill appears to be dead.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Sure hope so, that bill was crap. I hope that one day physicians will be free to practice just like electricians and plumbers, "You don't like my price? Feel free to go see Dr. Nick for some cheaper rates." Or like ancient greece, "Pay me 50% now and the other 50% if you live."

Seriously just joking guys, but I am glad the bill appears to be dead.

I don't want reform to die (ie tweaking and improving our current system), but I'm super glad the version of reform in that bill sure did. I think it's over now. The democrats in the house made it clear that they aren't going to commit political suicide, post Massachusetts, by supporting the wildly unpopular reform bill. The only thing they can do now is try to get a few small things through, or just hit the breaks and work with the republicans on the bill.

 

[7starmantis]

I don't want reform to die (ie tweaking and improving our current system), but I'm super glad the version of reform in that bill sure did. I think it's over now. The democrats in the house made it clear that they aren't going to commit political suicide, post Massachusetts, by supporting the wildly unpopular reform bill. The only thing they can do now is try to get a few small things through, or just hit the breaks and work with the republicans on the bill.

+1 👍

I think passing smaller incremental bills addressing specific issues is a much better strategy both for solving the many issues facing healthcare and for actually getting through the political gauntlet. I also think the populous would be much more supportive of smaller changes that they can see are not laden with earmarks and kickbacks.