Are doctors in any real danger while deployed?

[kgpremed11]

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And how is deployment different among the 3 branches? Since doctors do not have any real weapons or combat leadership training, I guess they are somewhere safe like a hospital where their skills can be useful.

 

[teacherman84]

And how is deployment different among the 3 branches? Since doctors do not have any real weapons or combat leadership training, I guess they are somewhere safe like a hospital where their skills can be useful.

Doctors do have weapons when deployed and get weapons training before deploying to an area where they are armed. The docs (AF and Army) i know have deployed anywhere from a large hospital in a very safe location to small makeshift EMEDS clinics where they may have occasionally had people shoot at or mortar the place but they werent ever actively in combat. Ive heard some docs end up in bad situations and need to use their weapon but its not planned.

 

[NavyFP]

And how is deployment different among the 3 branches? Since doctors do not have any real weapons or combat leadership training, I guess they are somewhere safe like a hospital where their skills can be useful.

You will get basic weapons training on the M9 (pistol) and M16/M4 (rifle). I have qualified on both multiple times. I have had only one incident in 3 combat deployments (2 total years in zone) in which I had a weapon drawn with the proximal intent to use it.

 

[backrow]

In my opinion the most dangerous jobs for physicians on deployment where those who were assigned to the reconstruction teams who were there in advisory positions trying to build up the country's medical capabilities. Those guys were/are going outside the wire every day.

I'll take a pass on that job, thanks 🙂

 

[Homunculus]

And how is deployment different among the 3 branches? Since doctors do not have any real weapons or combat leadership training, I guess they are somewhere safe like a hospital where their skills can be useful.

1) Yes, real danger.

2) army deploys most by number, followed by navy, and i think the air force goes when they feel like it. army/navy probably in the more dangerous areas.

3) doctors carry real weapons. "combat leadership training"-- no formal courses i suppose. i was former ROTC so i knew some basics but no, you will not be assigned to lead combat missions.

4) "safe like a hospital"-- unfortunately hospitals are not all over the place. the majority of doctors are out with the line units at smaller FOBs with an aid station, some combat medics, and maybe a PA. your level of exposure is the same as anyone else on the FOB when it comes to indirect fire or when you go outside the wire for miscellanous things.

--your friendly neighborhood bunker loving caveman

 

[sonofva]

I have been working in two civilian hospitals lately, and both have photos up in the lobby of a different doctor who died in the line of duty in Iraq/Afghanistan...

 

[kgpremed11]

I have been working in two civilian hospitals lately, and both have photos up in the lobby of a different doctor who died in the line of duty in Iraq/Afghanistan...

Really? I though doctors died in combat very, very rarely?

 

[bustbones26]

And how is deployment different among the 3 branches? Since doctors do not have any real weapons or combat leadership training, I guess they are somewhere safe like a hospital where their skills can be useful.

I deployed with the infantry and went where they went. My "hospital" was an old garage with four litters, shelves full of medical supplies/drugs, and some basic life support equipment. I did have to go out on missions at times when the situation called for it.

No, I did not go to 11B school, but learning how to use an M9 does not take rocket science, by the way, I was the only guy in my group that qualified as a sharp shooter 😉

There are certainly different levels of danger on deployment. Yes, there are some doctors that get to go to a CSH, which I would argue are better equipped than some MEDDACS and while there they live in an air conditioned trailer and have a toilet that actually flushes. Keep in mind that even though they are not out with the infantry on patrol, there are still dangers to consider: incoming rockets, suicide bombers, kidnappings, assault, etc.

As for combat leadership training, it doesn't matter. You are not expected to go into the conference room and draw battle plans you are there to be a doctor. You must know your role! Oddly, I was never treated with more respect by other soldiers than I was while deployed. Being a Captain or Major at an MTF or MEDDAC means nothing but at a FOB full of infantry guys, its a big deal. Be respectful and by the way, NEVER be embarrassed or ashamed to ask for help if you do not know something. Senior NCOs appreciate answering any questions or helping you out and will not hold it against you.

 

[kgpremed11]

I deployed with the infantry and went where they went. My "hospital" was an old garage with four litters, shelves full of medical supplies/drugs, and some basic life support equipment. I did have to go out on missions at times when the situation called for it.

No, I did not go to 11B school, but learning how to use an M9 does not take rocket science, by the way, I was the only guy in my group that qualified as a sharp shooter 😉

There are certainly different levels of danger on deployment. Yes, there are some doctors that get to go to a CSH, which I would argue are better equipped than some MEDDACS and while there they live in an air conditioned trailer and have a toilet that actually flushes. Keep in mind that even though they are not out with the infantry on patrol, there are still dangers to consider: incoming rockets, suicide bombers, kidnappings, assault, etc.

As for combat leadership training, it doesn't matter. You are not expected to go into the conference room and draw battle plans you are there to be a doctor. You must know your role! Oddly, I was never treated with more respect by other soldiers than I was while deployed. Being a Captain or Major at an MTF or MEDDAC means nothing but at a FOB full of infantry guys, its a big deal. Be respectful and by the way, NEVER be embarrassed or ashamed to ask for help if you do not know something. Senior NCOs appreciate answering any questions or helping you out and will not hold it against you.

I guess the military has its own language, just like medicine. What do these abbreviations stand for? I would gues MTF= medical training facility, CSH= country side hospital? But im probably wrong.

 

[sonofva]

Really? I though doctors died in combat very, very rarely?

Ok, we'll as it turns out one of those guys was an em guy attached to special forces, so while still sad, maybe less surprising. I'll have to see about the other one.

 

[244913]

Ok, we'll as it turns out one of those guys was an em guy attached to special forces, so while still sad, maybe less surprising. I'll have to see about the other one.

Yes you can potentially be in real danger. A lot of it depends on whether you seek out the danger or whether your commander seeks it out for you. I've been shot at by RPG's, DshKa's, PKM, AK-47's. Granted most of the time I was in a helicopter but the experience is still discomfiting. I've had a number of near misses with regards to crashes, rollovers etc.

Everyone who is deployed is exposed to IDF, some places are worse than others.

I know of 3 Physicians killed in OIF/OEF. Mark Taylor, an orthopod killed in Iraq in 2004 by IDF, another O6 who went down in a helo crash over Baghdad and SGT Roy Wood, whom you cited above. Wood was an EM Physician functioning as an 18D attached to an ODA team. He had been an SF medic in a prior life and was working towards becoming an A team leader with the 20th SFG (A) out of Florida. I believe he was killed in a HMMMV rollover in RC-East in early 2004.

Most Physicians stay on the FOB. Some attached to Infantry units do mounted/dismounted (less often) patrols and get outside the wire on MEDCAP missions. Flight surgeons are exposed to the risks I cited above on MEDEVAC missions and Air Assaults.

Best advice to avoid danger would be to not let your commander send you out on dismounted patrols and stay away from helicopters. Usually this isn't hard to do. With the wars coming to an end it is getting easier.

Good luck.

-61N

 

[J-Rad]

Taking one of the more dangerous deployed locations (as they are going on presumably safer missions such as on the USNS Comfort):

Afghanistan-
Air force is predominantly deploying in 6 month blocks (though I know of some psych people going in 3 month blocks; unsure if this is a regularity). All Critical Care Air Transport out of theater is AF (as well as from Germany and to/in the US). The CCAT deployments are also 6 months.

Deployers are mostly going to Bagram (Craig Joint Theater Hospital is almost entirely AF staffed, though it is a joint facility). IM, FM, Surg, Surg subs, some medical specialists on outpatient side, and one pediatrician a cycle. I'm not sure all the locations the flight docs deploy to. Other docs are out as medical mentors at Afghan hospitals and with Provincial Reconstruction Teams (PRTs) from what I understand. I would imagine the latter two groups face a higher threat, though, as stated above, there is danger back on the FOB (Forward Operating Base) from IDF (Indirect Fire), insider threats, and one only has to read the news to see that FOBs all over get targeted for IED (Improvised Explosive Device) attacks.

So as much as many might wish otherwise, the AF isn't deploying just when they feel like it😉

 

[NJEMT1]

Army Maj. John Pryor, trauma surgeon, was killed in Iraq in 2008. Mortar hit his quarters while sleeping. He was a reservist on his second tour in Iraq and director of the trauma program at Penn.

 

[Homunculus]

Army Maj. John Pryor, trauma surgeon, was killed in Iraq in 2008. Mortar hit his quarters while sleeping. He was a reservist on his second tour in Iraq and director of the trauma program at Penn.

i heard he was walking on the FOB near his CHU. happened on christmas if i remember correctly. i was in theater when it happened, had a friend of mine on the same FOB (who was a MAJ as well) and hada mini anxiety attack thinking it was him. sad deal 🙁

--your friendly neighborhood glad to be out of there caveman

 

[Homunculus]

So as much as many might wish otherwise, the AF isn't deploying just when they feel like it😉

they do have curacao as a "deployment" though 😕

--your friendly neighborhood sign me up for that caveman

 

[DeadCactus]

The real question isn't weather physician are killed or maimed while deployed. The question is how does that risk compare to the risk they face while working in the US. Unfortunately, I don't think the relevant statistics are available...

 

[J-Rad]

they do have curacao as a "deployment" though 😕

--your friendly neighborhood sign me up for that caveman

I prefer

But, tell me how I can get that deployment 😀

 

[dr zaius]

i heard he was walking on the FOB near his CHU. happened on christmas if i remember correctly. i was in theater when it happened, had a friend of mine on the same FOB (who was a MAJ as well) and hada mini anxiety attack thinking it was him. sad deal 🙁

--your friendly neighborhood glad to be out of there caveman

One of the OMFS students that joined my class was working with him when it happened (dentist at the time). He said it was one of the worst experiences of all his deployments 🙁. The guy was apparently amazing as a person and physician.

 

[alpinism]

One of the OMFS students that joined my class was working with him when it happened (dentist at the time). He said it was one of the worst experiences of all his deployments 🙁. The guy was apparently amazing as a person and physician.

He was.

"Seek always to do some good, somewhere. Every man has to seek in his own way to realize his true worth. You must give some time to your fellow man. For remember, you don't live in a world all your own. Your brothers are here too."
-Albert Schweitzer

 

[pgg]

The real question isn't weather physician are killed or maimed while deployed. The question is how does that risk compare to the risk they face while working in the US. Unfortunately, I don't think the relevant statistics are available...

I suspect I'm actually safer in Afghanistan than I am at home, if only because I don't drive on a freeway every day to get to work. Also, the hospital is a bunker and my living space is a bunker too, so the IDF risk is greatly reduced.


Previous deployments ... living on little FOBs, riding around in helicopters and Humvees (the 1st gen bolt-on afterthought-uparmor models), attending social mixers with the locals, eating the local food (but never the dairy goods, I'm not totally stupid) ... somewhat more dangerous.

 

[Gastrapathy]

I suspect I'm actually safer in Afghanistan than I am at home, if only because I don't drive on a freeway every day to get to work. Also, the hospital is a bunker and my living space is a bunker too, so the IDF risk is greatly reduced.


Previous deployments ... living on little FOBs, riding around in helicopters and Humvees (the 1st gen bolt-on afterthought-uparmor models), attending social mixers with the locals, eating the local food (but never the dairy goods, I'm not totally stupid) ... somewhat more dangerous.

Deployed to Iraq and to Landstuhl. By far the more dangerous was Landstuhl. The autobahn is dark late at night and the beer is both strong and tasty.

 

[Omppu27]

I'm a novice to how rankings and such work in the military, but how does all this work with reserves? I'd assume it's the same as fully enlisted drs with regards to what they do in the field and the danger their placed in. Are most doctors reserves? Or do lots fully enlist?

 

[Homunculus]

I'm a novice to how rankings and such work in the military, but how does all this work with reserves? I'd assume it's the same as fully enlisted drs with regards to what they do in the field and the danger their placed in. Are most doctors reserves? Or do lots fully enlist?

. . . . . 😕 . . . . .

-- your friendly neighborhood not touching this one caveman

 

[numberwunn]

The real question isn't weather physician are killed or maimed while deployed. The question is how does that risk compare to the risk they face while working in the US. Unfortunately, I don't think the relevant statistics are available...

This isn't physician-specific, but it may help this discussion somewhat.

http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=psc_working_papers

A little dated (2006), so the statistics may have "improved" for those deployed to OIF after 2007. Relative risk of death went up about 250% for all servicemen -- even more (~2x) for USMC (esp LCpls and Capt/Lts). USN/USAF had significantly lower mortality rates. Officers were generally lower. It's been a little while since I've read it, so don't remember the ins and outs of the study, but I do remember some of the weaknesses being that it didn't differentiate between MOSs (I would be very interested to see the difference between infantry and medical personnel), didn't include wounded.

 

[Omppu27]

. . . . . 😕 . . . . .

-- your friendly neighborhood not touching this one caveman

Lol... just did some research and realized that was an odd question... apologies.

 

[UltimateDO]

You will see every type of situation and it partially depends on what resources you have around you as to what kind of threat you will be exposed to. I just got back from a year as a battalion surgeon for an infantry unit and we were primarily on COPs that were too small to even have an integrated HLZ. All of our wounded were flown point of injury to kandahar. I would go out on the larger dismounted missions (~1/week) and to took direct and indirect fire regularly. I will say there was a lot of introspection going on after one of our PLs, an interpreter and an ANA 1SG stepped on an IED about 10m away from me and we got them taken care of. Gives a little perspective re: the guys that had to do that walk everyday.

 

[SeniorWrangler]

Lots of people get hurt during deployment because of bad luck or someone else's stupidity. Riding around in convoys at night on bad roads can kill you without any enemy action.

 

[pgg]

Lots of people get hurt during deployment because of bad luck or someone else's stupidity. Riding around in convoys at night on bad roads can kill you without any enemy action.

Right. Stay out of helicopters and tactical vehicles.

We had a negligent discharge and a bystander get shot in the chow hall a couple weeks ago, straight through his calcaneus. He may never walk right again, and may ultimately be better off with a BKA. Between that sort of thing and the food itself, the DFACs here can be risky.

 

[Homunculus]

Lots of people get hurt during deployment because of bad luck or someone else's stupidity. Riding around in convoys at night on bad roads can kill you without any enemy action.

we had more injuries/fatalities due to accidents than enemy action. a particularly bad one was when a roadside collapsed and an 1151 (uparmored humvee) flipped upside down into it. the channel was too narrow for the doors to be opened, and the soldiers drowned before they could be extracted or hooked up/dragged out. apparently this was the number one cause of death for motor vehicle accidents in theater. our HAGA (MRAP ambulance) had a collection of personal sized air tanks with regulators on them that our medic found somewhere. or ordered, who knows. only a few minutes worth probably but would be long enough for help to arrive.

--your friendly neighborhood never slept on convoys caveman

 

[bustbones26]

we had more injuries/fatalities due to accidents than enemy action. a particularly bad one was when a roadside collapsed and an 1151 (uparmored humvee) flipped upside down into it. the channel was too narrow for the doors to be opened, and the soldiers drowned before they could be extracted or hooked up/dragged out. apparently this was the number one cause of death for motor vehicle accidents in theater. our HAGA (MRAP ambulance) had a collection of personal sized air tanks with regulators on them that our medic found somewhere. or ordered, who knows. only a few minutes worth probably but would be long enough for help to arrive.

--your friendly neighborhood never slept on convoys caveman

I saw more injuries with the 92G than any 11B

 

[pgg]

Speaking of battlefield tourism.

The local Afghan run public/free hospital is regarded as a pretty safe place. Our hospital has been working with them routinely in a number of ways, training for their medical staff, supply donations, and other support functions as part of a group of efforts to get them more self-reliant before we leave for good. Local nationals who need care beyond their capabilities and meet our care eligibility requirements get taken care of in our hospital and then transferred to them as soon as possible. In some ways they're thought of as our sister hospital. They really do good work, subject to their facility equipment and personnel limitations. It's been common for our staff to tag along on the frequent trips over there on their days off to check it out, and people come back with smiles and pictures.

I've seen enough 3rd world hospitals to last me a lifetime, and in keeping with my rule of avoiding tactical vehicles and interaction with the locals, I of course have declined all offers.

A few weeks ago a physician in my department carried some expired and unneeded supplies over there to donate, and while he was there gave a lecture to their medical staff. Very well received. Interesting and rewarding for him. Fun day, I missed out.

A couple days ago a suicide bomber went inside and blew himself up.

In my GMO days a certain amount of meet & greet with locals was part of my job and obligatory, but a lot of the risk people are taking on deployments is purely voluntary.

 

[Homunculus]

Speaking of battlefield tourism.

The local Afghan run public/free hospital is regarded as a pretty safe place. Our hospital has been working with them routinely in a number of ways, training for their medical staff, supply donations, and other support functions as part of a group of efforts to get them more self-reliant before we leave for good. Local nationals who need care beyond their capabilities and meet our care eligibility requirements get taken care of in our hospital and then transferred to them as soon as possible. In some ways they're thought of as our sister hospital. They really do good work, subject to their facility equipment and personnel limitations. It's been common for our staff to tag along on the frequent trips over there on their days off to check it out, and people come back with smiles and pictures.

I've seen enough 3rd world hospitals to last me a lifetime, and in keeping with my rule of avoiding tactical vehicles and interaction with the locals, I of course have declined all offers.

A few weeks ago a physician in my department carried some expired and unneeded supplies over there to donate, and while he was there gave a lecture to their medical staff. Very well received. Interesting and rewarding for him. Fun day, I missed out.

A couple days ago a suicide bomber went inside and blew himself up.

In my GMO days a certain amount of meet & greet with locals was part of my job and obligatory, but a lot of the risk people are taking on deployments is purely voluntary.

it's easy to get lulled into a false sense of security. the good idea fairy thrives in deployed settings. i always made sure to look at the big picture and worst case scenarios. sometimes you don't have a choice, which sucks, but most of the time if you frame it correctly you can make sure the times you are exposed are worth it. i had my fair share of road trips in iraq, but most were for reasons i felt ok losing a arm, leg, etc over. other times not so much but you gotta do what you gotta do.

hope the rest of your deployment is uneventful

--your friendly neighborhood good idea fairy shooting caveman