Are EC's Necessary?

Started by SoulinNeed
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SoulinNeed

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So many of my classmates are involved in one EC or another, but I'm not involved in any. I went to a bunch of interest group meetings when I started, but none really grabbed me. I've honestly just spent my time reading stuff on my own (non-medicine), as it's just a favorite hobby of mine. Will this come back to seriously bit me in the ass come residency application time?
 
Go to the interest group of the specialty you are applying for. I would try to find at least something. That way you can put something on the CV, and you can have conversation about it come interview time. You don't have to go overboard or do something with heavy time commitment. Just simple things. Or be involved in single time events (food drives, runs, weekend clinics, etc), if your med school has any of those.
 
What would something simple entail? Just showing up to meetings? I'm in my second year now, and I'm afraid that I may have missed my chance to get involved in any meaningful fashion, but I guess I just need to do enough to be able to put something down on my CV.
 
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An absence of ECs will definitely be noticed and could be a mark against you. On the other hand, doing tons of ECs probably won't help that much (compared to pre med days).

I would try to hit the major points:
1) something service related (non med)
2) some leadership
3) med related service
4) overseas missions (if you can afford it, no biggie if not)
5) some sort of student rep to something meaningful at your school
6) something teaching related

1 or 2 of each over the next couple years is totally doable. Again, these aren't essential, just that an absence of ECs would be noticed compared to your peers. Your involvement and time commitment can be minimal for many of these.

Don't ever ever ever sacrifice grades, boards, or pubs for an EC though. Never forget what's most important (for better or worse). In all of my interviews so far as I see them skim my app, they first look at board score, then AOA/grades, then they skip the ECs and glance at pubs, then LORs (these get the most time and often theyll start with these), and them a quick skim of my PS. Some will then casually flip through the rest as we chat, occasionally asking about things that interest them.
 
Doesn't that seem like a bit much? 2 of each would mean 12 different groups and activities or so. I didn't have that as a pre med, lol. I was honestly just planning on doing 2 or 3 things at most, especially because I'm going on the wards soon. It's my fault for starting late, but I know I can't do that many events plus find time to study for everything I have.
 
SoulinNeed said:
Doesn't that seem like a bit much? 2 of each would mean 12 different groups and activities or so. I didn't have that as a pre med, lol. I was honestly just planning on doing 2 or 3 things at most, especially because I'm going on the wards soon. It's my fault for starting late, but I know I can't do that many events plus find time to study for everything I have.
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Yeah, doing every thing on that list even once seems excessive. I have basically just done research so far and I thought that was considered a pretty good EC, but that post makes me feel like a slacker lol...
 
Quality over quantity. I think most people looking at applications want to see ECs that you are really passionate about or have invested a lot of time into vs. just having a bunch of fluff to pad your CV.
 
Yeah, I agree. Quality over quantity. With quality, you have more stories to share, and your description of what you did can be more meaningful. Also gives you the personal satisfaction of being immersed in something, and maybe the people you are with can help you out later (recommendations, etc).
 
SoulinNeed said:
Doesn't that seem like a bit much? 2 of each would mean 12 different groups and activities or so. I didn't have that as a pre med, lol. I was honestly just planning on doing 2 or 3 things at most, especially because I'm going on the wards soon. It's my fault for starting late, but I know I can't do that many events plus find time to study for everything I have.
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There are no hard/fast numbers, just giving a ballpark idea and showing a little variety.

1) Join a couple IGs you're interested in (1 hr /month tops)
2) Get leadership position(s) in one/both (maybe 1-2 hours more per semester)
3) Sign up to tutor some first years (1-2 hours week)
4) Do an occasional evening or weekend day at your student-run free clinic (3 hours every other month or so)
5) If possible, join at least one committee. It will meet relatively infrequently. (1.5 hours /month)
6) If missions is your thing, do one over a spring or holiday break, or during elective time. (however long it is)
7) Volunteer at some non-med related charity on a Saturday every 2-3 months or so. There are hundreds of these, so pick one you like.

That's pretty minimal time investment and gives you a nice broad range of ECs, leadership, etc. Again, this is more so you don't stand out for not having anything. While I think CV fluff is annoying, to some degree its a requirement because everyone else is doing it. Even if your ECs are good ones, only having a page of stuff when all your peers have a lot more than that will stand out in a negative way. It will also help you during interviews when you get asked about things like teaching experience and leadership and service. It's one thing to say you want to do it and care about it, but it's another to point to things in your CV that demonstrate a commitment to those things.
 
operaman said:
An absence of ECs will definitely be noticed and could be a mark against you. On the other hand, doing tons of ECs probably won't help that much (compared to pre med days).

I would try to hit the major points:
1) something service related (non med)
2) some leadership
3) med related service
4) overseas missions (if you can afford it, no biggie if not)
5) some sort of student rep to something meaningful at your school
6) something teaching related

1 or 2 of each over the next couple years is totally doable. Again, these aren't essential, just that an absence of ECs would be noticed compared to your peers. Your involvement and time commitment can be minimal for many of these.

Don't ever ever ever sacrifice grades, boards, or pubs for an EC though. Never forget what's most important (for better or worse). In all of my interviews so far as I see them skim my app, they first look at board score, then AOA/grades, then they skip the ECs and glance at pubs, then LORs (these get the most time and often theyll start with these), and them a quick skim of my PS. Some will then casually flip through the rest as we chat, occasionally asking about things that interest them.
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You don't have to do anything on this list.
 
In residency and applications, do people care at all about things done before medical school or during gap years? I'm talking about really substantive stuff, like Peace Corps, etc.
 
ace12345 said:
In residency and applications, do people care at all about things done before medical school or during gap years? I'm talking about really substantive stuff, like Peace Corps, etc.
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Maybe, if its substantive and very interesting but for the most part, no.

FWIW, ECs are no where near as important or necessary for residency as for getting into medical school. There are some specialties which claim to look for them but for the most part even having none at all is not likely to hurt you (all else considered).
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
I think it's a little weird to not have ANY EC's - just because everyone else will have them and we know it really doesn't take that much effort to volunteer at the student clinic, or run the surgery interest group, or whatever.
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Perhaps. I guess I just figure when I see those apps (without ECs) that they've forgotten the bake sale they worked on for the Surgery Interest Club or some other meaningless ****; I personally don't put too much stock into them because the vast majority of it is meaningless **** done for the purpose of one's application and not really for the interest.

I'm not alone in this and while I'd rather someone just be honest and tell me that their ECs consist of eating pizza and playing video games, I don't recommend that as an application strategy.
 
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operaman said:
There are no hard/fast numbers, just giving a ballpark idea and showing a little variety.

1) Join a couple IGs you're interested in (1 hr /month tops)
2) Get leadership position(s) in one/both (maybe 1-2 hours more per semester)
3) Sign up to tutor some first years (1-2 hours week)
4) Do an occasional evening or weekend day at your student-run free clinic (3 hours every other month or so)
5) If possible, join at least one committee. It will meet relatively infrequently. (1.5 hours /month)
6) If missions is your thing, do one over a spring or holiday break, or during elective time. (however long it is)
7) Volunteer at some non-med related charity on a Saturday every 2-3 months or so. There are hundreds of these, so pick one you like.

That's pretty minimal time investment and gives you a nice broad range of ECs, leadership, etc. Again, this is more so you don't stand out for not having anything. While I think CV fluff is annoying, to some degree its a requirement because everyone else is doing it. Even if your ECs are good ones, only having a page of stuff when all your peers have a lot more than that will stand out in a negative way. It will also help you during interviews when you get asked about things like teaching experience and leadership and service. It's one thing to say you want to do it and care about it, but it's another to point to things in your CV that demonstrate a commitment to those things.
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It has been made abundantly clear in the past that medical missions are not viewed in all that positive of a light without a long, established history of medical volunteering. Don't do one if you're not also involved regularly at home.
 
Well, I should mention that I have done research (1 project so far, but there's a decent chance that I'll get a pub out of it). I was talking about stuff outside of that.
 
So... I kind of am in the same boat as OP- I don't really have any listable ECs that interest me. I was thinking about keeping my respiratory therapist license active and just working because I miss the hospital and want to keep my patient care and assessment skills intact in OMS-1 and 2. I'm kind of worried that having actual paid time in the hospital and no fluffy feel good stuff might be a death knell to my application if I'm gunning for university IM programs. Should I hop on the fluff train even though I feel ridiculous about it and could actually be making meaningful contributions in the hospital instead?
 
Mad Jack said:
So... I kind of am in the same boat as OP- I don't really have any listable ECs that interest me. I was thinking about keeping my respiratory therapist license active and just working because I miss the hospital and want to keep my patient care and assessment skills intact in OMS-1 and 2. I'm kind of worried that having actual paid time in the hospital and no fluffy feel good stuff might be a death knell to my application if I'm gunning for university IM programs. Should I hop on the fluff train even though I feel ridiculous about it and could actually be making meaningful contributions in the hospital instead?
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As much as it pains me to say it: yes.

I hate the fluff as much as the next person, but in addition to quality stuff, your CV does need a little bit of volume. I don't think it will be a death knell of any sort as others above have made clear, but an absence would probably be noticed.

I would add that some schools (mine included) base AOA membership partially on your CV in addition to your academics, so it can be helpful for this as well.

Don't forget that you can establish your own student group if nothing exists that suits your interests. I did this and some friends of mine did too. It takes a little more time but is fairly easy to do and then you get something listable that you actually enjoy doing.
 
operaman said:
As much as it pains me to say it: yes.

I hate the fluff as much as the next person, but in addition to quality stuff, your CV does need a little bit of volume. I don't think it will be a death knell of any sort as others above have made clear, but an absence would probably be noticed.

I would add that some schools (mine included) base AOA membership partially on your CV in addition to your academics, so it can be helpful for this as well.

Don't forget that you can establish your own student group if nothing exists that suits your interests. I did this and some friends of mine did too. It takes a little more time but is fairly easy to do and then you get something listable that you actually enjoy doing.
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I'm osteo, so AOA isn't an option on my end. Ugh... I guess I'll have to start some ******ed club rather than actually doing what I love and taking care of patients. ECs are such crap. You just reminded me that most of our Dean's letter is EC based, so I have to anyway. Crap.
 
Can you use joining an interest group as an experience if you just attend and don't have any leadership roles?
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
You can put it on there. It does literally nothing to strengthen your application, but that doesn't seem to stop 99% of all students from listing it on ERAS.
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I will probably leave it out unless I get more involved like fundraising or leadership.
 
I would try to have something on your CV just so it's not blank as others have mentioned, but no need to go overboard.... 🙄. operaman makes some good suggestions in his/her post for things to try to get involved if you're interested, but no need to do them all. I didn't know what I wanted to do until the end of 3rd year, so I didn't exactly get too involved with any specialty interest group in particular because I was so undecided. But I did do other things I was interested in, such as some clinic volunteering, tutoring, etc. None of my ECs (or research) had anything to do with my chosen specialty.

During my residency interviews, I am most asked about my life experiences from my personal statement, research, and hobbies. I listed being a "member" of a few interest groups, but was never asked about any of them. The only EC I've really talked about in interviews was my tutoring, because I've done a significant amount of it during/before med school.

About ECs before med school, I did list some that were significant including research.
 
operaman said:
As much as it pains me to say it: yes.

I hate the fluff as much as the next person, but in addition to quality stuff, your CV does need a little bit of volume. I don't think it will be a death knell of any sort as others above have made clear, but an absence would probably be noticed.
Click to expand...

I would argue that his CV already has "volume": his RT license, work as an RT during medical school.

Don't forget that you can establish your own student group if nothing exists that suits your interests. I did this and some friends of mine did too. It takes a little more time but is fairly easy to do and then you get something listable that you actually enjoy doing.
Click to expand...
That's not a bad idea. @Mad Jack could consider starting a Non-Trad group or something to help ease the transition from allied health practice to medical student as the interests and needs of those will be different than your typical 22-23 year old college grad starting medical school.
 
If you're going for University IM programs (esp as a DO) the #1 thing you can do to strengthen your application is to study your ass off and crush step 1.

As far as ECs (according to most PDs) the only things that really matter are research and leadership.

Everything else is basically along the lines of "huh thats nice, okay next application."
 
Okay I'm loving this thread. I definitely made the mistake in undergrad in doing too many ECs and spending too much time in them, sometimes even at the expense of grades.

What I'm getting from this thread is that you should really only focus on leadership and research in medical school. Can people give some examples of leadership that medical students have? Both at a small scale and large scale? Thanks
 
SoulinNeed said:
So many of my classmates are involved in one EC or another, but I'm not involved in any. I went to a bunch of interest group meetings when I started, but none really grabbed me. I've honestly just spent my time reading stuff on my own (non-medicine), as it's just a favorite hobby of mine. Will this come back to seriously bit me in the ass come residency application time?
Click to expand...

I'm basically sticking to research starting in the summer, a couple electives that interest me, and a medical mission trip during spring break. Plus a few free clinic shifts. I think that should be enough. I'm not sacrificing my academics for ECs. Specialty interest groups may or may not be useful. Some of them are just a way to get free food, but don't really offer much else. I think shadowing and research might be better ways to network if you're interested in some specialty.
 
Winged Scapula said:
Maybe, if its substantive and very interesting but for the most part, no.

FWIW, ECs are no where near as important or necessary for residency as for getting into medical school. There are some specialties which claim to look for them but for the most part even having none at all is not likely to hurt you (all else considered).
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This is what I thought. I'm a leadership position in my desired specialties IG, and then part of another random campus group and also doing research in my desired specialty. That is probably <5th percentile in terms of "being active" compared to everyone else in my class. I think they're *****s.
 
PL198 said:
This is what I thought. I'm a leadership position in my desired specialties IG, and then part of another random campus group and also doing research in my desired specialty. That is probably <5th percentile in terms of "being active" compared to everyone else in my class. I think they're *****s.
Click to expand...

I was that ***** in undergrad obsessed with ECs with the notion that they help sooo much. Never again. Ever.
 
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Some residency programs care about EC's-- either they're a box that needs to be checked (most programs) or they believe EC's say important things about the applicant (seemingly small number of programs).

Apparently, they matter very little in formulating the programs' actual match lists. Those algorithms are heavily, heavily weighted toward your ERAS application materials (numbers => grades >> AOA >>>>>>> research >> all else), but they do contribute to your overall gestalt.

The one glaring exception is badassery. Everyone loves badassery. If you're awesome at something non-medical to the point where you're winning competitions or making money, programs will eat that up.
 
Winged Scapula said:
I'm not alone in this and while I'd rather someone just be honest and tell me that their ECs consist of eating pizza and playing video games, I don't recommend that as an application strategy.
Click to expand...

Research is the only EC that really matters. An interest group is nice because you can make contacts with attendings. Everything else is gravy, but won't make up for grades and board scores. Getting from med school to residency is vastly different than college to med school.
 
deuist said:
Research is the only EC that really matters. An interest group is nice because you can make contacts with attendings. Everything else is gravy, but won't make up for grades and board scores. Getting from med school to residency is vastly different than college to med school.
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Yep ( I would not categorize research necessarily as an extra curricular activity although by definition I suppose it is).
 
deuist said:
When my program director found out that I am in the Air Force, he once asked me about flying planes. When I told him that doctors don't fly planes, he never asked me about the military again.
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Doesn't sound very badass then, tbh. It's a silly thing and not meant as a slight, but seems to be true for many PD's. I know people who were amateur pilots, semi-pro golfers, jeopardy contestants, and decorated powerlifters who were on the receiving end of much fawning during thier interview seasons.
 
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JimmyB123 said:
Okay I'm loving this thread. I definitely made the mistake in undergrad in doing too many ECs and spending too much time in them, sometimes even at the expense of grades.

What I'm getting from this thread is that you should really only focus on leadership and research in medical school. Can people give some examples of leadership that medical students have? Both at a small scale and large scale? Thanks
Click to expand...

Typically its stuff like:

interest group/club president, vice president, secretary
student run free clinic present, vice president, secretary
admissions committee member or interviewer
organizing charity events (race for x disease, fundraiser dinner/auction, etc)

other bigger stuff:

state or national medical societies
med student sections of specialty associations


deuist said:
When my program director found out that I am in the Air Force, he once asked me about flying planes. When I told him that doctors don't fly planes, he never asked me about the military again.
Click to expand...

Happens 60% of the time, every time.

my application - previous experience as flight medic in the USAF
interviewer - "oh I see you were a pilot in the air force"


KinasePro said:
You don't sound very badass then, tbh. Not meant as a slight, but PDs love the fancy and impressive ECs. I know people who were amateur pilots, semi-pro golfers, jeopardy contestants, and decorated powerlifters who were on the receiving end of much fawning during thier interview seasons.
Click to expand...

I think this is true too.

I have some friends with average scores but impressive (badass) ECs such as writing articles/having photos published in well known newspapers/magazines or continuing high level athletics in med school such as marathons or power lifting.

They all seemed to do very well with interviews. At the same time though, they were otherwise competitive applicants and its not like they had borderline or low step scores.
 
Having recently finished interviews, I can say that I was rarely asked about most ECs. One of them was even fairly unique and I was only asked about it once. Stuff like leadership only came in handy when answering open ended questions like "Tell me about a time you had to compromise." Even tutoring was rarely mentioned unless I brought it up. Residency interviews are far more practical than med school interviews and few people care about the unusual stuff you may do on the side other than it being a point of conversation if there is a shared interest.
 
wanderer said:
Having recently finished interviews, I can say that I was rarely asked about most ECs. One of them was even fairly unique and I was only asked about it once. Stuff like leadership only came in handy when answering open ended questions like "Tell me about a time you had to compromise." Even tutoring was rarely mentioned unless I brought it up. Residency interviews are far more practical than med school interviews and few people care about the unusual stuff you may do on the side other than it being a point of conversation if there is a shared interest.
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Then what do they care about?
 
JimmyB123 said:
Then what do they care about?
Click to expand...

That question is already been answered several times on this forum. Residency directors want to hire people that are going to further the field. The number one extracurricular becomes research as a result. The next question residency directors have is if you are going to be a good resident. For that they will ask can you work well with others, can you handle stress well, and are you efficient? Everything else (tutoring, occasional volunteering, amateur sports, taking a leadership role in an interest group, etc.) is not that important.
 
SoulinNeed said:
So many of my classmates are involved in one EC or another, but I'm not involved in any. I went to a bunch of interest group meetings when I started, but none really grabbed me. I've honestly just spent my time reading stuff on my own (non-medicine), as it's just a favorite hobby of mine. Will this come back to seriously bit me in the ass come residency application time?
Click to expand...

I did zero academic ECs in med school... Didn't see the need to, plus didn't want to waste time if I didn't like something.
 
alpinism said:
Typically its stuff like:

interest group/club president, vice president, secretary
student run free clinic present, vice president, secretary
admissions committee member or interviewer
organizing charity events (race for x disease, fundraiser dinner/auction, etc)

other bigger stuff:

state or national medical societies
med student sections of specialty associations




Happens 60% of the time, every time.

my application - previous experience as flight medic in the USAF
interviewer - "oh I see you were a pilot in the air force"




I think this is true too.

I have some friends with average scores but impressive (badass) ECs such as writing articles/having photos published in well known newspapers/magazines or continuing high level athletics in med school such as marathons or power lifting.

They all seemed to do very well with interviews. At the same time though, they were otherwise competitive applicants and its not like they had borderline or low step scores.
Click to expand...

LOL, shoulda just run with it and complained about the f35
 
What if I am heavily involved in research and getting my names on multiple publications?

I honestly don't want to do any ECs and would much rather spend my time making sure I do well in classes and being involved in research during the year. I also think most of the people here doing the ECs are only doing it so they can write some fluff on their applications. I'd rather just keep my application simple by having my stats and publications.
 
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pathologyDO said:
How did this work out for you during interviews?
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Perfectly 100% fine, since it was a non-factor at all. I mean, if a program wanted me to do research, I would have a been a bad fit anyway, since as people who seen my past posts know, I ******* hate research to a burning core, and would want nothing to do with that POS, also I am not a fan of academia.

I wasn't one of those people that volunteered at a free student clinic, because I just didn't. I didn't do that experience, not that I'm opposed to that behavior, I just didn't want to. The ONLY reason I would volunteer is not for an application, but for...you know, actually volunteering my time. And since I didn't choose to, I made the decision not to, which is perfectly fine. Same with not sitting in one meeting on ANY of those alphabet soup groups(AMSA, AMA, whatever)
 
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KnuxNole said:
Perfectly 100% fine, since it was a non-factor at all. I mean, if a program wanted me to do research, I would have a been a bad fit anyway, since as people who seen my past posts know, I ******* hate research to a burning core, and would want nothing to do with that POS, also I am not a fan of academia.

I wasn't one of those people that volunteered at a free student clinic, because I just didn't. I didn't do that experience, not that I'm opposed to that behavior, I just didn't want to. The ONLY reason I would volunteer is not for an application, but for...you know, actually volunteering my time. And since I didn't choose to, I made the decision not to, which is perfectly fine. Same with not sitting in one meeting on ANY of those alphabet soup groups(AMSA, AMA, whatever)
Click to expand...

my thoughts exactly.
 
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