Are EC's overrated?

[chillinillinkillin007]

Title says it all - are EC's overrated for schools other than top 20?

Obviously you want to show that you know what your getting into and all and be well rounded but does going on some random medical trip or volunteering 200 hours at some hospital or clinic really matter that much? If someone does not do those said things, it doesn't mean he/she will be an uncaring physician but according to many people on these forums that means he/she will not be accepted. Is this really true? Do adcoms buy into this resume padding stuff?

It's kind of crazy if you go to what are my chances, people recommend to volunteer here or get non-clinical volunteering there to increase your chances, and that's just crazy if you ask me. The point of volunteering is to give to others and volunteering to help your application is just selfish. Why is the "game" like this? Shouldn't your main application stand on your scores and your personal statement of WHY you want to be a doctor? Or is volunteering just overrated on SDN?

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[Aerus]

Short medical trips to other countries are definitely overrated. Extracurriculars aren't.

There are so many qualified applicants out there, so how do you separate people? My friend's uncle works in admissions at a top med school and he's said that the process is so competitive that he almost always finds reasons to not accept someone. If two people can passionately describe that they love helping people, but one has volunteer hours and one doesn't, who are you going to pick?

 

[Goro]

Let's put it this way. My school, and others (not merely the top 20), have rejected people with high MCATs and GPAs who so much as never set foot in a hospital.

Med schools can easily fill their seats with 4.0 automatons. However, we dont' want people who are merely good students, we want people who will be good doctors.

So yes, ECs count. You need to shadow to know what a doctor's day is like.

You need to volunteer in a hospital or clinical setting to show us that you actually like being around sick and injured people, andare willing to do this for the next 30-40 years.

You need non-clinical ECs to show you humanism and altruism.

You need to do some research (any research) to help you understand the scientific principles.

Some ECs are over-rated. Medical trips abroad, for example.

Oh, demonstrating leadership and being a good team player helps too.

quote="chillinillinkillin007, post: 14810758, member: 590005"]Title says it all - are EC's overrated for schools other than top 20?

Obviously you want to show that you know what your getting into and all and be well rounded but does going on some random medical trip or volunteering 200 hours at some hospital or clinic really matter that much? If someone does not do those said things, it doesn't mean he/she will be an uncaring physician but according to many people on these forums that means he/she will not be accepted. Is this really true? Do adcoms buy into this resume padding stuff?

It's kind of crazy if you go to what are my chances, people recommend to volunteer here or get non-clinical volunteering there to increase your chances, and that's just crazy if you ask me. The point of volunteering is to give to others and volunteering to help your application is just selfish. Why is the "game" like this? Shouldn't your main application stand on your scores and your personal statement of WHY you want to be a doctor? Or is volunteering just overrated on SDN?[/quote]

 

[slopes23]

Title says it all - are EC's overrated for schools other than top 20?

Obviously you want to show that you know what your getting into and all and be well rounded but does going on some random medical trip or volunteering 200 hours at some hospital or clinic really matter that much? If someone does not do those said things, it doesn't mean he/she will be an uncaring physician but according to many people on these forums that means he/she will not be accepted. Is this really true? Do adcoms buy into this resume padding stuff?

It's kind of crazy if you go to what are my chances, people recommend to volunteer here or get non-clinical volunteering there to increase your chances, and that's just crazy if you ask me. The point of volunteering is to give to others and volunteering to help your application is just selfish. Why is the "game" like this? Shouldn't your main application stand on your scores and your personal statement of WHY you want to be a doctor? Or is volunteering just overrated on SDN?

Problem is that nobody did ask you....

And fwiw, adcoms like to see volunteering because they identify altruism as an important part of the applicants ability to empathize, be ethical, and just a good citizen. It doesn't help to volunteer for 20 hours one semester. They look for longevity in activities which correlates positively with actual altruism the longer you stick with it. And your main application does stand on your gpa and mcat, and to a much much lesser extent your PS. Reason why ECs can be so important is because so many applicants have the same stats, so the way you distinguish between them is looking at more intangible qualities, which can be ascertained with more and more certainty as you are able to see a theme in EC's for what that person stands for. Also, if someone has 500 hrs of volunteering lets say, they may not have started out for the right reasons but they likely finished it through because they developed a taste for helping people. Whats wrong with that?

So although you may find that crazy, what I find crazy is the entitlement and arrogance that so many of you have, to think that you have everything all figured out and that Adcoms should be calling you directly asking for your advice. You don't know squat about squat. What happens when you pour water in a cup that is already full? It flows out of the sides. Similarly, you are unable to see things as they truly are because your cup is already full with preconceived ideas/ideals you ascertained as a child. It is however unfortunate that as a young adult you fail to realize the impracticality and naivety these ideas implicitly include.

 

[darklabel]

You're right. ECs are B.S., who should be a physician should be based purely on MCAT/GPA because those are the best indicators of how good a person will be as a physician.

I would respond, but you sound butthurt at the fact that your cycle isn't going well because of ECs. Tough.

 

[chillinillinkillin007]

Problem is that nobody did ask you....
So although you may find that crazy, what I find crazy is the entitlement and arrogance that so many of you have, to think that you have everything all figured out and that Adcoms should be calling you directly asking for your advice. You don't know squat about squat. What happens when you pour water in a cup that is already full? It flows out of the sides. Similarly, you are unable to see things as they truly are because your cup is already full with preconceived ideas/ideals you ascertained as a child. It is however unfortunate that as a young adult you fail to realize the impracticality and naivety these ideas implicitly include.

What's your problem man? Your the one who's expressing their thoughts like an immature child. Unfortunately, a decent number of applicants who do these activities do them to strengthen their application. Only a fool would pay thousands of dollars to go on a worthless medical trip in a foreign country to "help" the people there - why not just donate the money instead? Oh yeah, because you can't put it on your medical school application. I hope to god you didn't go on one of these trips and now think your Mother Teresa.

And premed students who "help" individuals with direct care when they have no experience at all is something else I just don't understand. Lastly, just because you didn't spend time volunteering at a hospital doesn't mean your altruistic. Most true acts of altruism don't fall on some official record where the hours tallied up and are reported on an application. I buy this homeless man near my apartment lunch once a week, but am I going to put that on my application...no

I do agree with Goro that good doctors should always be preferred over good physicians and usually applicants with 4.0 gpa's and nothing else are straight robots. Sitting a talking with someone about their activities and reasoning for being a doctor will give someone a much better idea of their personality and motivation than just reading an application has countless random EC's piled up just padding the application. Obviously EC's play a role but if I you actually take the time to reread my original post I was asking how big of a role do they actually play? I feel as if SDN over thinks their true importance and the fundamental reasoning behind the activities. It's not suppose to be just a check mark.

 

[chillinillinkillin007]

I would respond, but you sound butthurt at the fact that your cycle isn't going well because of ECs. Tough.

I'm not applying for another 2 years by the way. I still don't feel as if its right for me to go to a soap kitchen to volunteer so I can pad my app

 

[DoctorWhoo]

I'm not applying for another 2 years by the way. I still don't feel as if its right for me to go to a soap kitchen to volunteer so I can pad my app

You are looking at it wrong. You are volunteering at a soup kitchen (or wherever you choose to volunteer) because it is something you enjoy and are passionate about. If you are doing it solely to pad your app then you will get nothing out of it and it'll be transparent on your application.

 

[mik30102]

I'm not applying for another 2 years by the way. I still don't feel as if its right for me to go to a soap kitchen to volunteer so I can pad my app

Speaking for myself I began volunteering to "pad my app", and I feel most people at least begin this way. However I have truly come to enjoy many of my volunteering experiences, and really have learned many things from them. Go out and volunteer at some places you think you would find interesting. Even if your original reason for showing up is to further your app, you will be surprised what you can get out of these experiences if you keep a open mind.

 

[slopes23]

What's your problem man? Your the one who's expressing their thoughts like an immature child. Unfortunately, a decent number of applicants who do these activities do them to strengthen their application. Only a fool would pay thousands of dollars to go on a worthless medical trip in a foreign country to "help" the people there - why not just donate the money instead? Oh yeah, because you can't put it on your medical school application. I hope to god you didn't go on one of these trips and now think your Mother Teresa.

And premed students who "help" individuals with direct care when they have no experience at all is something else I just don't understand. Lastly, just because you didn't spend time volunteering at a hospital doesn't mean your altruistic. Most true acts of altruism don't fall on some official record where the hours tallied up and are reported on an application. I buy this homeless man near my apartment lunch once a week, but am I going to put that on my application...no

I do agree with Goro that good doctors should always be preferred over good physicians and usually applicants with 4.0 gpa's and nothing else are straight robots. Sitting a talking with someone about their activities and reasoning for being a doctor will give someone a much better idea of their personality and motivation than just reading an application has countless random EC's piled up just padding the application. Obviously EC's play a role but if I you actually take the time to reread my original post I was asking how big of a role do they actually play? I feel as if SDN over thinks their true importance and the fundamental reasoning behind the activities. It's not suppose to be just a check mark.

Edit: I am deleting what I wrote originally because I don't want to be mean. I'll leave you with this piece of advice. When you ask a question, be more open to the answers you receive. Don't ask a question with a preconceived idea of what the answer is, or how things should really be. The only reason I felt/feel tempted to go off on you is just to put it in your face that you are wrong in the way you are going about things at the moment. Had you asked your question with a different tone, or even just by saying, "Are EC's overrated? I ask because there seems to be conflicting opinions on what the actual answer is and I want to get my story straight" I would have cut you a lot more slack. A surefire way (especially on here) to get a lot of flack, is to ask a question, and act as if you already knew the answer, and then be wrong about said answer.

To answer what your OP was asking, there are certain EC's that are overrated, but overall the category of EC's on your application is not overrated. EC's will not get you in alone, but it is how you show your uniqueness, altruism, time management, and other important attributes. Unless it's self evident, most people are given the benefit of the doubt that it is not CV padding. Why? well because at that point one of two things will happen. Either they wont get an interview regardless, or they do get an interview. If the latter happens, then it's another checkpoint by the adcom to learn more about who you are, your motivations, and your experience. In an interview as you noted, it is much easier to tell if EC's are padding or not. The admission's process is like sieve, each stage is meant to reveal different things, and less and less people make it to the next stage until you arrive at X number of acceptances, and you have next years incoming class.

 

[pdxhopeful]

I'd also note that juggling regular volunteer work in addition to your usual classes and (eventually) MCAT prep, maybe a sport, and so on speaks well to your ability to manage your time and keep up with a heavy workload - both things you'll HAVE to do in med school.

Most of my med school classmates still volunteer, and now we get to do more medically related things. I was at an event just this weekend talking about STI prevention, other classmates were doing blood pressures and doing glucose testing, etc. Those experiences have gotten more than a few of us thinking about a different specialty than we thought coming in, it reminds us we're not just here to memorize the steps of the TCA cycle, and so on.

 

[Planes2Doc]

The one thing that sucks is that I've never heard anyone asking how they can help more people with ECs. They only ask how they can help themselves.

 

[DoctorWhoo]

You are looking at it wrong. You are volunteering at a soup kitchen (or wherever you choose to volunteer) because it is something you enjoy and are passionate about. If you are doing it solely to pad your app then you will get nothing out of it and it'll be transparent on your application.

I'd like to clarify my previous post because my aim was not to make the OP feel bad. It is OK if your volunteer experience is a "means to an end" (a way to pad your app) so long as the experience is also an end within itself (something you enjoy for its own sake). It will only be transparent and weak if you truly only did something because you wanted it to look good on your app.

 

[listener23]

Will someone be kind enough to list some of the overrated EC? Im really curious.

 

[Mavs88]

Will someone be kind enough to list some of the overrated EC? Im really curious.

Overseas medical trip missions, Pre-med club...that's what I see mentioned on SDN.

Not to say that you shouldn't do these things, but students often put time/money into these and don't get anything meaningful out of it.

 

[Planes2Doc]

I made a similar thread a while back: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/more-volunteering-less-desirable-applicant.973297/

Here's the original post which I think addresses this topic:

This thread either seems paradoxical, or like a troll thread at first glance.

But the more you think of it, it's true. Why make this thread? Because I felt like I was forced to sacrifice a considerable amount of time (and forfeit potential income) when I still had a life. Today I have sacrificed everything I have for my medical education, I believe other people are paying the same price.

Volunteering and ECs can either help or harm an applicant. But I think the volunteering game has finally reached its tipping point, where it's gotten to the extreme where it is mostly hurting applicants, volunteer organizations, and schools themselves. How is it hurting everyone? Applicants are hurt because they are going completely overboard when it comes to the number of volunteer activities and hours that they are putting in. So many are pissing their last years of freedom doing activities they don't want to do, just to put on a song and dance to impress ADCOMs. How are organizations getting harmed? Well, premeds don't have a piss poor reputation for nothing. They screw over hospitals and other organizations because they either half-ass their responsibilities, or are very flaky due to no oversight by schools. How are schools getting harmed? Well if the school is service-oriented and has a large number of applicants that magically picked up a handful of activities when they officially became premed, then who do you think the school is really choosing?

Now to tie this to the thread's title... I am a non-traditional applicant and was in the working world for some time. I met just a couple people (out of many) that devoted a lot of their time to serving the community. They received a lot of recognition at the office. But the funny thing is that they would look like heartless bastard when you compare them to so many applicants in the WAMC threads with "average" ECs. Everyone and their mother has volunteered in a hospital, hospice, free clinic, tutored underprivileged youth, ladled soup in a soup kitchen, did Big Brother Big Sister, coached underprivileged youth, and so many other activities.

But let me ask you this... Do you think it's possible for so many applicants to suddenly go from ZERO TO MOTHER TERESA in just a couple days? I never realized that people can change so suddenly! What's more disheartening is that everyone insults one another on SDN. Either someone is saying that their volunteer activity is "superior" or they are insulting someone because they don't enjoy their volunteering.

It's probably gunners that are going from ZERO TO MOTHER TERESA so quickly. If everyone hates gunners so much, and gunners are the ones guinning for ROADs residencies, then don't you think schools are picking the "wrong" applicants if they choose the ones with a laundry-list of activities? I'm not saying they will make good or bad doctors, because providing free labor doesn't mean squat. But isn't it kind of paradoxical that the "Mother Teresa" applicants are probably the ones that care least about service? I'm not saying that this applies to EVERYONE, but I doubt that premeds are magically more morally righteous than other people.

Does anyone see something wrong with the direction that ECs have taken in the medical admissions process? It's become a race to the bottom. A race to see who can put on the most believable facade, even though it's obvious that they are full of $h!t. Does anyone think this process is flawed? What can be done to fix it?

Sorry, needed to vent.

/rant

 

[listener23]

Overseas medical trip missions, Pre-med club...that's what I see mentioned on SDN.

Not to say that you shouldn't do these things, but students often put time/money into these and don't get anything meaningful out of it.

When you say premed clubs, what the person holds a leadership position? Is its value still overstated in that circumstance?

Could you also list more useless activities…

 

[slopes23]

When you say premed clubs, what the person holds a leadership position? Is its value still overstated in that circumstance?

Could you also list more useless activities…

Listing: Mentoring Pre-Meds on SDN as a leadership activity. jk jk.... But seriously. Don't.

 

[corndogger]

I made a similar thread a while back: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/more-volunteering-less-desirable-applicant.973297/

Here's the original post which I think addresses this topic:

This thread either seems paradoxical, or like a troll thread at first glance.

But the more you think of it, it's true. Why make this thread? Because I felt like I was forced to sacrifice a considerable amount of time (and forfeit potential income) when I still had a life. Today I have sacrificed everything I have for my medical education, I believe other people are paying the same price.

Volunteering and ECs can either help or harm an applicant. But I think the volunteering game has finally reached its tipping point, where it's gotten to the extreme where it is mostly hurting applicants, volunteer organizations, and schools themselves. How is it hurting everyone? Applicants are hurt because they are going completely overboard when it comes to the number of volunteer activities and hours that they are putting in. So many are pissing their last years of freedom doing activities they don't want to do, just to put on a song and dance to impress ADCOMs. How are organizations getting harmed? Well, premeds don't have a piss poor reputation for nothing. They screw over hospitals and other organizations because they either half-ass their responsibilities, or are very flaky due to no oversight by schools. How are schools getting harmed? Well if the school is service-oriented and has a large number of applicants that magically picked up a handful of activities when they officially became premed, then who do you think the school is really choosing?

Now to tie this to the thread's title... I am a non-traditional applicant and was in the working world for some time. I met just a couple people (out of many) that devoted a lot of their time to serving the community. They received a lot of recognition at the office. But the funny thing is that they would look like heartless bastard when you compare them to so many applicants in the WAMC threads with "average" ECs. Everyone and their mother has volunteered in a hospital, hospice, free clinic, tutored underprivileged youth, ladled soup in a soup kitchen, did Big Brother Big Sister, coached underprivileged youth, and so many other activities.

But let me ask you this... Do you think it's possible for so many applicants to suddenly go from ZERO TO MOTHER TERESA in just a couple days? I never realized that people can change so suddenly! What's more disheartening is that everyone insults one another on SDN. Either someone is saying that their volunteer activity is "superior" or they are insulting someone because they don't enjoy their volunteering.

It's probably gunners that are going from ZERO TO MOTHER TERESA so quickly. If everyone hates gunners so much, and gunners are the ones guinning for ROADs residencies, then don't you think schools are picking the "wrong" applicants if they choose the ones with a laundry-list of activities? I'm not saying they will make good or bad doctors, because providing free labor doesn't mean squat. But isn't it kind of paradoxical that the "Mother Teresa" applicants are probably the ones that care least about service? I'm not saying that this applies to EVERYONE, but I doubt that premeds are magically more morally righteous than other people.

Does anyone see something wrong with the direction that ECs have taken in the medical admissions process? It's become a race to the bottom. A race to see who can put on the most believable facade, even though it's obvious that they are full of $h!t. Does anyone think this process is flawed? What can be done to fix it?

Sorry, needed to vent.

/rant

first off, I don't think organizations suffer. If they're not happy with a volunteer, they can easily tell them that they're not welcome anymore. Organizations know when they recruit student volunteers that availability depends on exams, is less in the summer, and that students don't have stable schedules in general. They also know that many people volunteer to meet some requirement, either x number of hours required for police, nursing, social work, etc (or premed). Majority are fine with this, and are happy to have the volunteers.

Second, while I agree it's a problem if people volunteer only to make it look like they care, there are few alternatives. One option is to have MMIs as a way to better assess how you relate to others, but this comes with its own set of problems. For example, McMaster (Canadian school) doesn't look at extracurriculars at all and letters of reference are pass fail. They hugely base admissions on MMI. While I think MMI is a better tool than the traditional format, you have no real way of knowing if the applicant is full of it without some EC experiences to back it up. At very least, 100s of hours of ECs shows the schools that you're willing to sacrifice your time to become a doctor.

 

[corndogger]

When you say premed clubs, what the person holds a leadership position? Is its value still overstated in that circumstance?

Could you also list more useless activities…

I think any club, even if you are in a leadership position, is overrated. Unless you have something impressive to show for it, for example organized a marathon that 5,000 people participated in, I think clubs are a huge way that people try to pad their application.

 

[pdxhopeful]

How are organizations getting harmed? Well, premeds don't have a piss poor reputation for nothing. They screw over hospitals and other organizations because they either half-ass their responsibilities, or are very flaky due to no oversight by schools. How are schools getting harmed?

Guess it depends on the place. The hospital where I did my premed clinical volunteering tracked hours and got feedback from the nurses we most interacted with, and it was a sought-after enough position that you could and would be dismissed if you missed shifts or were just taking up oxygen. It might sound overly demanding to some, but I LIKED that they had standards and wound up with a great LOR that wasn't just cookie-cutter.

I will agree though, orgs in general do need to hold volunteers - esp. premeds - more accountable.

 

[chillinillinkillin007]

When I asked if EC's overrated, I meant in the terms of the resume padding EC's. If you have publications, started original food drives for the needy, are a D1 athlete, and other impressive activities that defiantly counts as something.

But am I the only person who thinks it's a bit ironic if you go to what are my chances, people tell others that you should go volunteer some more to help their application. Seriously? Isn't volunteering suppose to be an act of good heart and not an act of selfish motives?

 

[Bovary]

I think there's another side of the coin that's not being discussed. It's well understood that volunteering is meant to serve as "proof" that the applicant is an altruistic person. But additionally, clinical and nonclinical volunteering is also valuable as an educational service to the volunteer. Volunteer hours can show that someone has spent time with society's most needy, and you bet that the clientele of food banks, free clinics, and urban emergency departments often dress and talk differently than the members of the applicant's social circle. Even if rich boy from the suburbs is only volunteering at the free clinic to rack up some hours so he can get into Yale School of Medicine, in so doing he will (theoretically, I suppose) learn to interface with the uninsured and working poor whom he's seldom had to interact with in the past. This is important. Volunteering, apart from being an ostensibly altruistic act of service, is also the beginning of a pre-medical student's cultural education.

 

[deleted407021]

The one thing that sucks is that I've never heard anyone asking how they can help more people with ECs. They only ask how they can help themselves.

The point of this entire forum is for people to find out what might make them more competitive. I'm certainly interested in knowing how adcoms view certain things I may be doing, but I won't fixate on it. One reason I changed my major from Bio to psych is so I can be of more immediate help to those I come in contact with at the clinic. During Aikido practice I love teaching new things I learned by attending seminars. In looking for a "non-clinical" volunteering outlet, I looked for an organization (I found an environmental club) that serves my strong interest in improving the scientific literacy and thinking capacity of the community, b/c I believe (through my own experience) that reason and scientific thinking help lead to a self actualized life and cura personalis is a very important concept to me. I want to become an EMT-B this Summer because it will allow me to fill a much needed roll at the clinic which surpasses my current role in terms of scope. Upon considering service ECs (and even just-for-fun ones), I always look to see how much it will let me improve, in some way the life of those I'm serving. Heck, my biggest excitement about being in Wind Symphony is seeing how much the public (its free to attend BTW) enjoy the music our team can bring to them. I hate that you seem a bit embittered @Planes2Doc , but I do understand. However, I know that I can't be the only pre-med on this forum who has the same or similar considerations, even if they aren't expressing them.

 

[Planes2Doc]

When I asked if EC's overrated, I meant in the terms of the resume padding EC's. If you have publications, started original food drives for the needy, are a D1 athlete, and other impressive activities that defiantly counts as something.

But am I the only person who thinks it's a bit ironic if you go to what are my chances, people tell others that you should go volunteer some more to help their application. Seriously? Isn't volunteering suppose to be an act of good heart and not an act of selfish motives?

You're preaching to the choir. Unfortunately, it is what it is. The system is far into itself that there's nothing you can do.

Do you want to know what absolutely blows my mind? A pre-med who did too little too late of volunteering. He gets rejected by a school, and they tell him that he didn't have enough volunteering. Clearly, the school perhaps thought that he wasn't altruistic enough or something like that.

After rejection, he takes a year consistently doing volunteer work. Then he reapplies, and alas, he is accepted to the same school!

So does this mean that the pre-med who wasn't altruistic in the beginning magically became a very selfless altruistic person after they had to spend more time doing these activities? That makes no sense to me. People don't just change like that.

 

[Planes2Doc]

I think there's another side of the coin that's not being discussed. It's well understood that volunteering is meant to serve as "proof" that the applicant is an altruistic person. But additionally, clinical and nonclinical volunteering is also valuable as an educational service to the volunteer. Volunteer hours can show that someone has spent time with society's most needy, and you bet that the clientele of food banks, free clinics, and urban emergency departments often dress and talk differently than the members of the applicant's social circle. Even if rich boy from the suburbs is only volunteering at the free clinic to rack up some hours so he can get into Yale School of Medicine, in so doing he will (theoretically, I suppose) learn to interface with the uninsured and working poor whom he's seldom had to interact with in the past. This is important. Volunteering, apart from being an ostensibly altruistic act of service, is also the beginning of a pre-medical student's cultural education.

If ADCOMs want pre-meds to learn about the clinical environment and other people, then so be it. An applicant should be able to therefore say exactly why they decided to do hospital volunteering. But instead, I don't think an ADCOM will ever ask why someone did an activity.

Anyway, if you're trying to play the altruism card, then you're not doing any service to a medical school if you are putting on a facade, portraying yourself as some selfless individual, when in reality you were only doing those activities for the sake of your application. That's what sucks about it. Putting on a facade. If the ADCOMs wanted someone who genuinely cared about helping others, and ended up getting a "ZERO to Mother Teresa" applicant who dropped everything post-acceptance and would never provide service to the underserved as a practicing physician, then how is it fair to the school? It sure sounds like a lot of bait and switch. Bait and switch that keeps happening year after year after year after year.

The point of this entire forum is for people to find out what might make them more competitive. I'm certainly interested in knowing how adcoms view certain things I may be doing, but I won't fixate on it. One reason I changed my major from Bio to psych is so I can be of more immediate help to those I come in contact with at the clinic. During Aikido practice I love teaching new things I learned by attending seminars. In looking for a "non-clinical" volunteering outlet, I looked for an organization (I found an environmental club) that serves my strong interest in improving the scientific literacy and thinking capacity of the community, b/c I believe (through my own experience) that reason and scientific thinking help lead to a self actualized life and cura personalis is a very important concept to me. I want to become an EMT-B this Summer because it will allow me to fill a much needed roll at the clinic which surpasses my current role in terms of scope. Upon considering service ECs (and even just-for-fun ones), I always look to see how much it will let me improve, in some way the life of those I'm serving. Heck, my biggest excitement about being in Wind Symphony is seeing how much the public (its free to attend BTW) enjoy the music our team can bring to them. I hate that you seem a bit embittered @Planes2Doc , but I do understand. However, I know that I can't be the only pre-med on this forum who has the same or similar considerations, even if they aren't expressing them.

You're a rare breed @BrainsIsCool. I commend you for your willingness to help others. Sadly, I don't think too many pre-meds share your views.

 

[deleted407021]

You're a rare breed @BrainsIsCool. I commend you for your willingness to help others. Sadly, I don't think too many pre-meds share your views.

Thanks. I appreciate that. I hope I'm not just being naive in thinking there are lots of others who take everyone in their service into consideration.

 

[justAstudent]

When I asked if EC's overrated, I meant in the terms of the resume padding EC's. If you have publications, started original food drives for the needy, are a D1 athlete, and other impressive activities that defiantly counts as something.

But am I the only person who thinks it's a bit ironic if you go to what are my chances, people tell others that you should go volunteer some more to help their application. Seriously? Isn't volunteering suppose to be an act of good heart and not an act of selfish motives?

If what you do helps someone or something regardless of intentions, does it diminish the aid in any way? Sure it might be resume padding or whatever for some people, but the help is real and it is doing good for others still.

 

[Straw Hat]

When I asked if EC's overrated, I meant in the terms of the resume padding EC's. If you have publications, started original food drives for the needy, are a D1 athlete, and other impressive activities that defiantly counts as something.

But am I the only person who thinks it's a bit ironic if you go to what are my chances, people tell others that you should go volunteer some more to help their application. Seriously? Isn't volunteering suppose to be an act of good heart and not an act of selfish motives?

I sure hope they don't only care to see d1 athletics… let's not forget d2, d3, pretty much any college sport. There's not much of a difference in terms of time spent. For 2 years while I was healthy I spent the majority of my time on the field or on 6-12+hr bus rides playing d2 baseball. Maybe I should've accepted my d1 offer after all :\

 

[QuantumJ]

If you merely volunteer to check the boxes as a med applicant then yes they are overrated and useless. Sadly I think this is a pretty wide reaching phenomenon within the premed ranks.

For me, I did things I was passionate about and planned on continuing the rest of my life. I did some hospital volunteering but I didn't like, felt like I wasn't making a difference and at times got in the way. My clinical experience was actually fairly minimal and fairly non-traditional but I allowed my interests to guide me to the right activities. Now I can't say how adcomms really saw this but for someone with on the bubble numbers I got more interviews than I expected. When I interviewed, I didn't have to make anything up about much I liked folding blankets but instead I talked passionately about what I did and the feedback I got was positive.

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

This is a great summary of the often unspoken requirements and the rationale behind them. But is there any evidence that this rationale is correct?

Many of the physicians currently choosing the next generation only had to post up a respectable GPA and MCAT score to get admitted to medical school. They certainly didn't pad their resumes with shadowing, volunteering in each of the required categories, and strategically plan their summers passing out Advil in war-torn nations or doing research at the NIH. Are they less empathetic or less humanistic than the current crop of physicians? What about those applicants that do sneak into places like WashU with high numbers and little else. Does research show they go on to become lesser physicians than the typical applicant?

If the research shows these things actually matter, then let's keep emphasizing them. If not, aren't we just rewarding people who had the right connections and mentors when they started college?

Let's put it this way. My school, and others (not merely the top 20), have rejected people with high MCATs and GPAs who so much as never set foot in a hospital.

Med schools can easily fill their seats with 4.0 automatons. However, we dont' want people who are merely good students, we want people who will be good doctors.

So yes, ECs count. You need to shadow to know what a doctor's day is like.

You need to volunteer in a hospital or clinical setting to show us that you actually like being around sick and injured people, andare willing to do this for the next 30-40 years.

You need non-clinical ECs to show you humanism and altruism.

You need to do some research (any research) to help you understand the scientific principles.

Some ECs are over-rated. Medical trips abroad, for example.

Oh, demonstrating leadership and being a good team player helps too.

quote="chillinillinkillin007, post: 14810758, member: 590005"]Title says it all - are EC's overrated for schools other than top 20?

Obviously you want to show that you know what your getting into and all and be well rounded but does going on some random medical trip or volunteering 200 hours at some hospital or clinic really matter that much? If someone does not do those said things, it doesn't mean he/she will be an uncaring physician but according to many people on these forums that means he/she will not be accepted. Is this really true? Do adcoms buy into this resume padding stuff?

It's kind of crazy if you go to what are my chances, people recommend to volunteer here or get non-clinical volunteering there to increase your chances, and that's just crazy if you ask me. The point of volunteering is to give to others and volunteering to help your application is just selfish. Why is the "game" like this? Shouldn't your main application stand on your scores and your personal statement of WHY you want to be a doctor? Or is volunteering just overrated on SDN?

[/quote]

 

[Aerus]

What's your problem man? Your the one who's expressing their thoughts like an immature child. Unfortunately, a decent number of applicants who do these activities do them to strengthen their application. Only a fool would pay thousands of dollars to go on a worthless medical trip in a foreign country to "help" the people there - why not just donate the money instead? Oh yeah, because you can't put it on your medical school application. I hope to god you didn't go on one of these trips and now think your Mother Teresa.

And premed students who "help" individuals with direct care when they have no experience at all is something else I just don't understand. Lastly, just because you didn't spend time volunteering at a hospital doesn't mean your altruistic. Most true acts of altruism don't fall on some official record where the hours tallied up and are reported on an application. I buy this homeless man near my apartment lunch once a week, but am I going to put that on my application...no

I do agree with Goro that good doctors should always be preferred over good physicians and usually applicants with 4.0 gpa's and nothing else are straight robots. Sitting a talking with someone about their activities and reasoning for being a doctor will give someone a much better idea of their personality and motivation than just reading an application has countless random EC's piled up just padding the application. Obviously EC's play a role but if I you actually take the time to reread my original post I was asking how big of a role do they actually play? I feel as if SDN over thinks their true importance and the fundamental reasoning behind the activities. It's not suppose to be just a check mark.

The only problem I have with your post is you imply that premeds do this to pad their resume and nothing more. I would still do all the volunteering that I've done so far whether it was going on my resume or not, whether I am premed or not.

 

[orangeman25]

Can amazing ECs ever compensate for average/below average stats?

 

[Planes2Doc]

The only problem I have with your post is you imply that premeds do this to pad their resume and nothing more. I would still do all the volunteering that I've done so far whether it was going on my resume or not, whether I am premed or not.

I honestly wonder what the opinions of pre-meds are regarding obvious fakers. I think we lose focus of the fact that these volunteer activities are... well... volunteer activities. That means that people will do them if they want to, but shouldn't feel forced to do it, as it will no longer be volunteering then. I don't think it's right when people make pre-meds who do activities purely for medical school admissions to be bad people.

Even though it has nothing to do with medical school, the recent Russell Wilson vs Colin Kaepernick post regarding their instragram accounts was kind of troubling:

http://thebiglead.com/2014/01/13/co...rious-comparison-of-their-instagram-accounts/

Even though later on apologies were made and other photos of Kaepernick were put up, it would be wrong to criticize Colin Kaepernick even had he not taken the time to volunteer and do what not. I don't understand why people were being so judgmental of the man. People should be commended for the things they do, but shouldn't be vilified for the things they don't do. That's the whole point of altruism. It's doing things because we want to. ADCOMs virtually forcing applicants to do these things kind of defeats the principles of volunteering in the first place.

 

[listener23]

Can amazing ECs ever compensate for average/below average stats?

Sure, if your definition of amazing is curing cancer.

 

[milski]

I honestly wonder what the opinions of pre-meds are regarding obvious fakers. I think we lose focus of the fact that these volunteer activities are... well... volunteer activities. That means that people will do them if they want to, but shouldn't feel forced to do it, as it will no longer be volunteering then. I don't think it's right when people make pre-meds who do activities purely for medical school admissions to be bad people.

But that's the problem, is not it? What do you think are the chances of someone getting accepted without having any "volunteering?" I would not call volunteering to get admitted faking any more than I would call faking studying for a class that does not interest you just to maintain your GPA. The consequences of choosing to volunteer or not are pretty clear, so it only follows that any rational person will participate in some sort of volunteering. I don't think that this is a sign of anything more than having some common sense and being relatively well informed.

 

[SN12357]

Can amazing ECs ever compensate for average/below average stats?

That depends on what you mean by that. Compensate for stats somewhat below a school's average GPA and/or MCAT? Sure. Those averages are calculated from numbers both above and below them...that's what makes them averages. Also while schools report averages sometimes the MSAR reports medians, so literally half the class will have an MCAT at or below the median for that school. Their ECs presumably compensated and raised their application status.

On the other hand ECs are not going to save you from being way out of range for a school, particularly if you're ORM from a typical premed background.

 

[Planes2Doc]

But that's the problem, is not it? What do you think are the chances of someone getting accepted without having any "volunteering?" I would not call volunteering to get admitted faking any more than I would call faking studying for a class that does not interest you just to maintain your GPA. The consequences of choosing to volunteer or not are pretty clear, so it only follows that any rational person will participate in some sort of volunteering. I don't think that this is a sign of anything more than having some common sense and being relatively well informed.

If you interviewed at a medical school, and told the ADCOMs you thought the MCAT sucked. They would probably laugh with you.

If you interviewed at a medical school, and told the ADCOMs you think volunteering sucks. They will reject you.

Strategically doing these activities and then misrepresenting yourself is certainly different than studying for something you don't enjoy. A girl will hate a guy for sweet talking her to get in her pants. I am sure that an ADCOM would feel the same way if a pre-med pretended to be this genuinely selfless individual dying to help the underserved, only to not give two craps about them in real life. I'm amazed that changes haven't been implemented to address this issue. Year after year these supposed bleeding heart applicants get accepted, only to gun for ROAD specialties once in medical school.

 

[milski]

If you interviewed at a medical school, and told the ADCOMs you thought the MCAT sucked. They would probably laugh with you.

If you interviewed at a medical school, and told the ADCOMs you think volunteering sucks. They will reject you.

Strategically doing these activities and then misrepresenting yourself is certainly different than studying for something you don't enjoy. A girl will hate a guy for sweet talking her to get in her pants. I am sure that an ADCOM would feel the same way if a pre-med pretended to be this genuinely selfless individual dying to help the underserved, only to not give two craps about them in real life. I'm amazed that changes haven't been implemented to address this issue. Year after year these supposed bleeding heart applicants get accepted, only to gun for ROAD specialties once in medical school.

Ok, you are right, that was not exactly the best example. My point is that once volunteering is the de facto standard for getting accepted, it stops being a useful discriminator between applicants. I very much doubt that all successful applicants would have volunteered if the expectation to do so was not so well known.

What I am really curious is how many attendings continue to volunteer.

 

[Planes2Doc]

My point is that once volunteering is the de facto standard for getting accepted, it stops being a useful discriminator between applicants. I very much doubt that all successful applicants would have volunteered if the expectation to do so was not so well known.

I'm guessing that many years ago, the first pre-meds that volunteered looked amazing, and it was probably a golden ticket into medical school. As it became more common to the point where it was expected, it became something that wouldn't make you look good, but would make you look bad if you didn't have it. I'm guessing that with very good stats, someone can get in with solely traditional hospital volunteering plus shadowing. But since it's become the de facto standard, as you've mentioned, pre-meds today are stacking non-clinical volunteering plus other clubs and such things on top of it.

I'm guessing years ago, a short-term medical mission trip was probably a golden ticket into medical school. And I'm guessing in a few years, starting your own non-profit will no longer be highly looked upon.

Wow, do things change! But one thing has stayed the same, volunteering will get you into medical school, which is why applicants wouldn't be caught dead without it!

What I am really curious is how many attendings continue to volunteer.

Since there is still such a need for physicians to help the underserved, I'm guessing that there aren't enough. There are too many bleeding heart applicants dying to help the underserved that make it to medical school. But once in medical school, they are gunning for the highest paying specialties with the best lifestyles!

SURPRISE!

 

[deleted407021]

If you interviewed at a medical school, and told the ADCOMs you thought the MCAT sucked. They would probably laugh with you.

If you interviewed at a medical school, and told the ADCOMs you think volunteering sucks. They will reject you.

Strategically doing these activities and then misrepresenting yourself is certainly different than studying for something you don't enjoy. A girl will hate a guy for sweet talking her to get in her pants. I am sure that an ADCOM would feel the same way if a pre-med pretended to be this genuinely selfless individual dying to help the underserved, only to not give two craps about them in real life. I'm amazed that changes haven't been implemented to address this issue. Year after year these supposed bleeding heart applicants get accepted, only to gun for ROAD specialties once in medical school.

What kind of changes could be made to more accurately measure the sincerity of all these applicants?

Also, I clearly have no real means with which to make any kind of specialty decision but I'm not sure how much I would enjoy primary care. However, I can guarantee that I want to work in a rural area/community. Certainly being the only rad onc within a 3.5 hours drive wouldn't be a breach of that "I'm a super selfless person" code that so many applicants tack onto themselves during the process?

 

[lobo.solo]

Doing ECs to pad your resume is not the way to go IMO. I'm sure experienced adcoms can see through who did things ONLY to pad their resume. IMO, ECs are a representation of things you like, you're passionate about, you care about etc. It is a window into the future physician you will become I think...

 

[Sephiroth]

If you interviewed at a medical school, and told the ADCOMs you thought the MCAT sucked. They would probably laugh with you.

If you interviewed at a medical school, and told the ADCOMs you think volunteering sucks. They will reject you.

Strategically doing these activities and then misrepresenting yourself is certainly different than studying for something you don't enjoy. A girl will hate a guy for sweet talking her to get in her pants. I am sure that an ADCOM would feel the same way if a pre-med pretended to be this genuinely selfless individual dying to help the underserved, only to not give two craps about them in real life. I'm amazed that changes haven't been implemented to address this issue. Year after year these supposed bleeding heart applicants get accepted, only to gun for ROAD specialties once in medical school.

Forewarning: I am an extremely cynical individual.

I've been through a lot of interviews, and it really seems to me that many interviewers really just want to hear people spout a bunch of BS to them. I never really did that and it probably hurt me, but I knew plenty of people with lower numbers and [IMO] and weaker resume get into schools I didn't get into that I know just want to be a dermatologist working 35 hrs/week in south florida. And while I do want to get into a competitive specialty myself (and frankly, I'm not cut out for primary care), I do actually give a s*** about the underserved (though I really wish I could do more about it on a broader, political-esque scale). And I've met students who would love to work in/run cash-only practices. It seems unfathomable that people on the admissions committee don't realize this. Whether their motives altruistic or selfish, those who want it enough will learn to play the game, however the rules may change. To some extent they're probably ok with it - they get students with high numbers who they know will do research and study hard for the boards to get into their desired specialty, which makes the school look good, and we do need some specialists. But if just that were the case, then simply high numbers, research, and just enough shadowing and clinical exposure to know what you're getting into should be enough. I really wonder if a lot of people on admissions committees are content in deluding themselves in maintaining that lots of volunteer hours on an application is really indicative of an individual's altruism so they can go have a big circle j*** about how altruistic they all are in picking such altruistic applicants to admit. Or maybe it's just a good proxy for who is most willing to spend the most time jumping through the most hoops. Add that to a thread a while back about having something unusual and unrelated to medicine and excel at at a high level becoming another box to check, and it seems admissions is becoming a red queen race. But either way, it's something you just gotta do.

Keep in mind, I'm not agreeing that all volunteering is worthless. I've had some great experiences. But at the same time, I've met so many people who just do things they don't want to (which I may have been guilty of in a few cases), start some "charitable" club that does next to nothing so they can all have executive positions, go on these mission trips and post pictures that look like it was more of a vacation (and these I am extremely cynical about), and prepare some bs to tell interviewers about how meaningful it was when they don't mean a word of it. But maybe there really is no reliable way of discerning the sincere from the unscrupulous with high fidelity. But all the kinds of people I've mentioned that may have seemed bitterly, I really don't hold it against them. I can't blame them - they didn't make the system how it is, and you can really only blame the system. But it is what it is, and there's not much any of us can do about it in the near future, so we just have to deal with it.

 

[Lya]

What kind of changes could be made to more accurately measure the sincerity of all these applicants?

Also, I clearly have no real means with which to make any kind of specialty decision but I'm not sure how much I would enjoy primary care. However, I can guarantee that I want to work in a rural area/community. Certainly being the only rad onc within a 3.5 hours drive wouldn't be a breach of that "I'm a super selfless person" code that so many applicants tack onto themselves during the process?

In medicine, it is extremely vague and difficult to judge an applicant, because the medical skills are taught after getting accepted to medical school, not beforehand. In fields like culinary art and music, it is simply one live audition or a sample course of 3 dishes (appetizer, entrée, and dessert) that we can, although often subjectively, judge an applicant, because these demonstrate the existing skills as well as the future potential. However, when all applicants are not expected to have any medical skills and they are being judged medically for future medical training, anything we do is simply a proxy, never a true measure of "medicine" within applicants.

The question is about how to judge a person as a whole for something that he or she hasn't yet been trained for. And whatever answer someone suggests, it seems that there will be inevitably someone else disagreeing and arguing.


/thread

 

[Planes2Doc]

What kind of changes could be made to more accurately measure the sincerity of all these applicants?

Good question. There are two things we can implement now that should be relatively easy. Then two things that seem a little difficult.

First, the easy ones...

1. Every medical school should randomly call the contacts of students that it's planning to interview, even if there are absolutely no red flags on the application. This should scare applicants into not embellishing their hours. Unfortunately, embellishing hours is a big grey area, whereas something might be considered honest to one person, but would be considered lying to another.

2. ADCOMs should not be scared to ask why a pre-med decided to do certain activities. If a pre-med is going to devote so much time and forgo any sort of monetary compensation, then it should be fair game to ask pre-meds why they got involved with a certain activity. I don't know why "ZERO to Mother Teresa" applicants don't raise any red flags? This should cut down on the number of activities people do, unless they are great bullsh*tters of course.

Now the harder ones...

3. AMCAS should create a standardized grading sheet to be used to evaluate pre-meds at their volunteer activities. Currently there is absolutely no oversight (unless an ADCOM personally knows a volunteer coordinator), so an ADCOM can only gauge an applicant based on what they tell them. Therefore, two applicants with an equal amount of hours might be judged the same, even though one may have been an honorary part of the hospital team, while another would sign in and ditch. If pre-meds were graded, then you would see people stop half-assing what they do, people will stop embellishing hours, and people will stop ditching volunteering. It might be a pain for volunteer coordinators, but it should work out for them. After all, I'm sure that young pre-meds can do far more labor than the elderly. The only difference is that the elderly genuinely want to be there, while the pre-meds don't. The pre-meds' poor attitude is what kills their productivity. Now, if pre-meds were actually held accountable, then hospitals can save money by hiring less techs, secretaries, and other paid positions. Currently, pre-meds have horrible reputations, and I don't think hospitals are willing to replace paid labor with people who are extremely flaky and don't care about what they are doing.

4. AMCAS should extend activities through high school. For a while, you'll see who only started doing these activities right when they became pre-med. If you extend the timeline to high school, people will need to know long ahead of time that they want to pursue medical school. ADCOMs can see who was perhaps actually altruistic. This is flawed though, since the system will reach equilibrium, and high schoolers who are thinking about medicine will know to start early. But I can't imagine putting on such a facade for so many years! Though high-achievers won't mind because even if you drop pre-med, those activities will still look mighty nice on other graduate school applications, or for future employers.

 

[Goro]

Pay careful attention to the very fist line of my post.

I have yet to see evidence to support this unusual line of thinking. When I was in undergrad some 40 years ago, every pre-med I knew did hospital volunteer work. All of my clinical colleagues, many of whom are a good deal younger than me, also did extensive ECs. One, for example, served in the Peace Corps in Africa.

So, you may not like it, but ECs are a requirement for medical school. Sure people may box check, bit we can spot them.

This is a great summary of the often unspoken requirements and the rationale behind them. But is there any evidence that this rationale is correct?

Many of the physicians currently choosing the next generation only had to post up a respectable GPA and MCAT score to get admitted to medical school.

[/

This is a great summary of the often unspoken requirements and the rationale behind them. But is there any evidence that this rationale is correct?

Many of the physicians currently choosing the next generation only had to post up a respectable GPA and MCAT score to get admitted to medical school. They certainly didn't pad their resumes with shadowing, volunteering in each of the required categories, and strategically plan their summers passing out Advil in war-torn nations or doing research at the NIH. Are they less empathetic or less humanistic than the current crop of physicians? What about those applicants that do sneak into places like WashU with high numbers and little else. Does research show they go on to become lesser physicians than the typical applicant?

If the research shows these things actually matter, then let's keep emphasizing them. If not, aren't we just rewarding people who had the right connections and mentors when they started college?

[/quote]

 

[deleted407021]

@Planes2Doc
I can see you have put a lot of thought into this issue. Why do you think they have not already instituted a more stringent means of assuring that students are doing as they claim? Is it that they are set in their ways? I'm guessing they must, and generally do believe what they are being told by applicants. Would it be too much work to do all the quality assurance seeing as the applicant pool can be large?

 

[darklabel]

Good question. There are two things we can implement now that should be relatively easy. Then two things that seem a little difficult.

First, the easy ones...

1. Every medical school should randomly call the contacts of students that it's planning to interview, even if there are absolutely no red flags on the application. This should scare applicants into not embellishing their hours. Unfortunately, embellishing hours is a big grey area, whereas something might be considered honest to one person, but would be considered lying to another.

2. ADCOMs should not be scared to ask why a pre-med decided to do certain activities. If a pre-med is going to devote so much time and forgo any sort of monetary compensation, then it should be fair game to ask pre-meds why they got involved with a certain activity. I don't know why "ZERO to Mother Teresa" applicants don't raise any red flags? This should cut down on the number of activities people do, unless they are great bullsh*tters of course.

Now the harder ones...

3. AMCAS should create a standardized grading sheet to be used to evaluate pre-meds at their volunteer activities. Currently there is absolutely no oversight (unless an ADCOM personally knows a volunteer coordinator), so an ADCOM can only gauge an applicant based on what they tell them. Therefore, two applicants with an equal amount of hours might be judged the same, even though one may have been an honorary part of the hospital team, while another would sign in and ditch. If pre-meds were graded, then you would see people stop half-assing what they do, people will stop embellishing hours, and people will stop ditching volunteering. It might be a pain for volunteer coordinators, but it should work out for them. After all, I'm sure that young pre-meds can do far more labor than the elderly. The only difference is that the elderly genuinely want to be there, while the pre-meds don't. The pre-meds' poor attitude is what kills their productivity. Now, if pre-meds were actually held accountable, then hospitals can save money by hiring less techs, secretaries, and other paid positions. Currently, pre-meds have horrible reputations, and I don't think hospitals are willing to replace paid labor with people who are extremely flaky and don't care about what they are doing.

4. AMCAS should extend activities through high school. For a while, you'll see who only started doing these activities right when they became pre-med. If you extend the timeline to high school, people will need to know long ahead of time that they want to pursue medical school. ADCOMs can see who was perhaps actually altruistic. This is flawed though, since the system will reach equilibrium, and high schoolers who are thinking about medicine will know to start early. But I can't imagine putting on such a facade for so many years! Though high-achievers won't mind because even if you drop pre-med, those activities will still look mighty nice on other graduate school applications, or for future employers.

1) Adcoms on here have mentioned that this is pretty unfeasible with so many applicants. Also, not every volunteer opportunity has a reliable contact information. Numbers change, organizations change, etc. But it is worth examining more.

2) Aren't they already doing this? I have been asked about my activities point blank in some interviews. I've also heard of people speaking spanish to applicants randomly to see if they can (though not sure if its just an urban legend or not).

3) Besides the fact that I am against advocating for volunteering in jobs that people currently have and depend on their livelihood, a "grading sheet" just creates unnecessary work for volunteer sites and may further alienate premeds from volunteering. Also seems subjective and I can see favoritism and such play a role. I don't know how it was for you, but volunteers here put in hours and the organization is vigilant about who's doing their work or not. This goes back to #1 that if Adcoms verify I did it, why is this sheet necessary for each thing I do? Also, as an applicant you're likely to get a LOR from the director for your more meaningful activities so this might infringe of people using character letters from their volunteering experience.

4) You can list activities in High School, some people did it. But its been said here by individual adcoms that they don't view it favorably. You can put the start date earlier and then that accomplishes what you want.

With so many applicants and so few spots, ad coms sometimes have to pick applicants out of a straw hat. The meaningful ECs (ones that aren't rehashed frequently) are usually unique enough and allows the applicant to speak vividly about something that most people can't fake it no matter what, maybe like living for a year in Africa or Peace Corps. 250 vs 500 vs 1000 hours of volunteering at a hospital isn't exactly going to sway the adcoms and instituting some of these things will make us jump through more hoops then we already currently do. Only thing I don't mind seeing is calling for verification, but thats up to the individual schools, but if they don't care enough to call then why does it matter? As it stands and according to the AMCAs charts, high GPA/MCAT still reigns supreme.

 

[musicalMD]

I'm not applying for another 2 years by the way. I still don't feel as if its right for me to go to a soap kitchen to volunteer so I can pad my app

I do agree with you the sometimes the emphasis on volunteering is overrated. But that is because it becomes a game of who can rack up the most hours. This is not really beneficial to anyone and, in my opinion, these hours are wasted.

When I volunteer, I try to get out the mindset of "this will look great on my resume" and into the mindset of "I am really helping someone and feel great about it." With this attitude, I have found that I enjoy every volunteer job I get, even the "boring" ones.

 

[milski]

Good question. There are two things we can implement now that should be relatively easy. Then two things that seem a little difficult.

First, the easy ones...

1. Every medical school should randomly call the contacts of students that it's planning to interview, even if there are absolutely no red flags on the application. This should scare applicants into not embellishing their hours. Unfortunately, embellishing hours is a big grey area, whereas something might be considered honest to one person, but would be considered lying to another.

2. ADCOMs should not be scared to ask why a pre-med decided to do certain activities. If a pre-med is going to devote so much time and forgo any sort of monetary compensation, then it should be fair game to ask pre-meds why they got involved with a certain activity. I don't know why "ZERO to Mother Teresa" applicants don't raise any red flags? This should cut down on the number of activities people do, unless they are great bullsh*tters of course.

Now the harder ones...

3. AMCAS should create a standardized grading sheet to be used to evaluate pre-meds at their volunteer activities. Currently there is absolutely no oversight (unless an ADCOM personally knows a volunteer coordinator), so an ADCOM can only gauge an applicant based on what they tell them. Therefore, two applicants with an equal amount of hours might be judged the same, even though one may have been an honorary part of the hospital team, while another would sign in and ditch. If pre-meds were graded, then you would see people stop half-assing what they do, people will stop embellishing hours, and people will stop ditching volunteering. It might be a pain for volunteer coordinators, but it should work out for them. After all, I'm sure that young pre-meds can do far more labor than the elderly. The only difference is that the elderly genuinely want to be there, while the pre-meds don't. The pre-meds' poor attitude is what kills their productivity. Now, if pre-meds were actually held accountable, then hospitals can save money by hiring less techs, secretaries, and other paid positions. Currently, pre-meds have horrible reputations, and I don't think hospitals are willing to replace paid labor with people who are extremely flaky and don't care about what they are doing.

4. AMCAS should extend activities through high school. For a while, you'll see who only started doing these activities right when they became pre-med. If you extend the timeline to high school, people will need to know long ahead of time that they want to pursue medical school. ADCOMs can see who was perhaps actually altruistic. This is flawed though, since the system will reach equilibrium, and high schoolers who are thinking about medicine will know to start early. But I can't imagine putting on such a facade for so many years! Though high-achievers won't mind because even if you drop pre-med, those activities will still look mighty nice on other graduate school applications, or for future employers.

1. Is embellishing the number of hours such a big problem as you are making it be? I know that people would fudge numbers up to look better but I doubt that many applicants are doing something outrageous as doubling their numbers, considering that the drawbacks of getting caught are much worse than the benefit of increasing the number.

2. Answering that takes about 15 minutes of preparation. Anyone gunner enough to "fake" volunteering can come up with a plausible story about why he volunteered.

3. I don't think absenteeism or laziness is the big issue. Most volunteering duties have very, very limited responsibilities. Excelling at these is similar to excelling at being able to write your name. Sure, you'll make the slackers pull their weight but if the de facto standard is to volunteer for 4 hr/week without slacking, everyone will do it.

4. Now we are headed straight to a "I knew I wanted to be a doctor since I was 3 years old" situation. It is probably impossible to find the data but it is meaningless to talk about stricter enforcement of altruism for candidates without knowing how many of the current students/doctors can meet such a criteria. Are all the good doctors altruist in the sense that you want demonstrated? Do they need to be?