Are EC's overrated?

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Good question. There are two things we can implement now that should be relatively easy. Then two things that seem a little difficult.

First, the easy ones...

1. Every medical school should randomly call the contacts of students that it's planning to interview, even if there are absolutely no red flags on the application. This should scare applicants into not embellishing their hours. Unfortunately, embellishing hours is a big grey area, whereas something might be considered honest to one person, but would be considered lying to another.

2. ADCOMs should not be scared to ask why a pre-med decided to do certain activities. If a pre-med is going to devote so much time and forgo any sort of monetary compensation, then it should be fair game to ask pre-meds why they got involved with a certain activity. I don't know why "ZERO to Mother Teresa" applicants don't raise any red flags? 😵 This should cut down on the number of activities people do, unless they are great bullsh*tters of course.

Now the harder ones...

3. AMCAS should create a standardized grading sheet to be used to evaluate pre-meds at their volunteer activities. Currently there is absolutely no oversight (unless an ADCOM personally knows a volunteer coordinator), so an ADCOM can only gauge an applicant based on what they tell them. Therefore, two applicants with an equal amount of hours might be judged the same, even though one may have been an honorary part of the hospital team, while another would sign in and ditch. If pre-meds were graded, then you would see people stop half-assing what they do, people will stop embellishing hours, and people will stop ditching volunteering. It might be a pain for volunteer coordinators, but it should work out for them. After all, I'm sure that young pre-meds can do far more labor than the elderly. The only difference is that the elderly genuinely want to be there, while the pre-meds don't. The pre-meds' poor attitude is what kills their productivity. Now, if pre-meds were actually held accountable, then hospitals can save money by hiring less techs, secretaries, and other paid positions. Currently, pre-meds have horrible reputations, and I don't think hospitals are willing to replace paid labor with people who are extremely flaky and don't care about what they are doing.

4. AMCAS should extend activities through high school. For a while, you'll see who only started doing these activities right when they became pre-med. If you extend the timeline to high school, people will need to know long ahead of time that they want to pursue medical school. ADCOMs can see who was perhaps actually altruistic. This is flawed though, since the system will reach equilibrium, and high schoolers who are thinking about medicine will know to start early. But I can't imagine putting on such a facade for so many years! Though high-achievers won't mind because even if you drop pre-med, those activities will still look mighty nice on other graduate school applications, or for future employers.

Number 4 further widens the discrepancy between high economic tier applicants and lower ones. Many of the ECs done by high schoolers are either put together by their parents, heavily encouraged by parents, made possible by parents (think as basic as a ride to the volunteer place), and generally only available to students who have the free time t work without pay. There is no way a high schooler can be held responsible, in a positive or a negative way, for what they did or did not do in high school. Also, no job application or grad school cares about high school activities..
 
Tl;dr No. Next question. 🙂

Longer version: if you have the numbers, ECs help improve your app. If you don't, they won't save you.
 
Tl;dr No. Next question. 🙂

Longer version: if you have the numbers, ECs help improve your app. If you don't, they won't save you.

the question now is does volunteering to help your application shows true altruism and should adcom's reward this type of volunteering
 
the question now is does volunteering to help your application shows true altruism and should adcom's reward this type of volunteering

So if someone wants to be a physician and does volunteer, but gets no enjoyment out of it and just to check boxes (happens, some people prefer to just donate money instead of time), he deserves to be punished?

Just trying to understand where you're coming from because every premed volunteers, but a lot genuinely don't like it but have to. Most of my engineering friends never volunteer except a few times a year at most, but if they had to volunteer to get that dream internship, then I'm sure they would receive the bad rap that premeds get.
 
ADCOMs want to see REAL experiences. Volunteering is frankly a weak way to go. I will add my comments on what works well.

1) Real work experience

They love this. I worked retail in high school and customer service for a national company. in undergrad for 4 years. I have handled my own in the "real world". I know how to deal with people, deal with stress, talk to people etc. Many medical school applicants do not work part-time jobs outside of the university setting so it sets you apart. Like come on, if you worked as a CNA or phlebotomist in college ADCOMs know you're not just "padding". You don't pad 2, 3, 4 years of work experience.

2) Research
Research is important because many schools require it for scholarly projects and residency/fellowship programs may. require it. Not just playing around in a lab but substantial research experience preferably over 1 academic year or more that you can comment on and hopefully have an abstract or paper. You cannot fudge an abstract or paper.

3) Teaching
 
Sorry. Im on mobile.

I worked for Kaplan and was a teacher for a high school science program over a 2 year period. Cannot fudge two years. They love it.

Service
I developed a community screening project and launched it. Again not fudging.

My EC's were bulletproof. Every one was a several year experience. They knew automatically that I was trustworthy, professional etc. because all of my activities were professional activities that I could have professionals write me letters for an activities that I spent years of my life doing them.

I had no clubs and no volunteering outside of shadowing but they didn't care because of the magnitude of my experiences. Plus I tied all of my experiences together in a theme...

If you are in your soph or junior year looking for activities you are already behind the 8-ball.
 
ADCOMs want to see REAL experiences. Volunteering is frankly a weak way to go. I will add my comments on what works well.

1) Real work experience

They love this. I worked retail in high school and customer service for a national company. in undergrad for 4 years. I have handled my own in the "real world". I know how to deal with people, deal with stress, talk to people etc. Many medical school applicants do not work part-time jobs outside of the university setting so it sets you apart. Like come on, if you worked as a CNA or phlebotomist in college ADCOMs know you're not just "padding". You don't pad 2, 3, 4 years of work experience.

FWIW - I worked full-time throughout undergrad and have had close to zero luck this cycle. I'm sure there are many other factors to consider, but IME having thousands of hours of work experience has not counted for much with respect to med school admissions.

-Bill
 
Number 4 further widens the discrepancy between high economic tier applicants and lower ones. Many of the ECs done by high schoolers are either put together by their parents, heavily encouraged by parents, made possible by parents (think as basic as a ride to the volunteer place), and generally only available to students who have the free time t work without pay. There is no way a high schooler can be held responsible, in a positive or a negative way, for what they did or did not do in high school. Also, no job application or grad school cares about high school activities..

This is an absolutely terrific point. I kind of forgot about the whole helicopter parent mentality that you find on websites like College Confidential. I think that high schoolers who come from wealthier families will definitely have an advantage. But, I believe that anyone with more money will have an advantage anyhow in whatever process. For example, poor pre-meds that can't afford expensive MCAT preparation might do worse than those who can afford them. The wealthiest of pre-meds for whom money is no object can also afford some top-of-the-line tutoring, like Princeton Review which is over $10,000+ for their best tutors. If there is so much inequality at this point, then it would suck for people to have far larger advantages way earlier down the line.

So if someone wants to be a physician and does volunteer, but gets no enjoyment out of it and just to check boxes (happens, some people prefer to just donate money instead of time), he deserves to be punished?

Just trying to understand where you're coming from because every premed volunteers, but a lot genuinely don't like it but have to. Most of my engineering friends never volunteer except a few times a year at most, but if they had to volunteer to get that dream internship, then I'm sure they would receive the bad rap that premeds get.

So true. I think that pre-meds have unfortunately tainted an otherwise good and special thing. It's like I said in other threads. I've met people who were not pre-meds, who were doing similar things because they wanted to. I was absolutely blown away when I met these rare individuals, yet if they were pre-meds, their activities would only be considered around "average" on the WAMC forum. It also sucks that if you are someone who genuinely loves service and are a pre-med, your achievements are overshadowed by the piss poor reputation of pre-meds in general. Here's a hypothetical example... Have you heard of the "Route 29 Batman?" His story is amazing, and very moving. But... Would you perspective suddenly change if you realized he was a pre-med? Would you lose the respect for him that you might have had?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...tman-this-guy/2012/03/28/gIQA8nPjgS_blog.html

It sucks that something special like volunteering has become something that's expected. When someone tells you they volunteer, you should respond by saying, "Wow! That's great!" But instead, you already expect a pre-med to do it. If a pre-med doesn't volunteer, you would have this reaction:

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That just seems wrong, doesn't it? Pre-meds are like King Midas, eventually ruining lots of things they touch. They have ruined the meaning of service a long time ago (though it's still getting people into medical school). They have ruined short-term medical mission trips. Pretty soon I'm sure they will ruin non-profits since those are apparently still wowing ADCOMs.

ADCOMs want to see REAL experiences. Volunteering is frankly a weak way to go. I will add my comments on what works well.

1) Real work experience

They love this. I worked retail in high school and customer service for a national company. in undergrad for 4 years. I have handled my own in the "real world". I know how to deal with people, deal with stress, talk to people etc. Many medical school applicants do not work part-time jobs outside of the university setting so it sets you apart. Like come on, if you worked as a CNA or phlebotomist in college ADCOMs know you're not just "padding". You don't pad 2, 3, 4 years of work experience.

2) Research
Research is important because many schools require it for scholarly projects and residency/fellowship programs may. require it. Not just playing around in a lab but substantial research experience preferably over 1 academic year or more that you can comment on and hopefully have an abstract or paper. You cannot fudge an abstract or paper.

3) Teaching

Lots of pre-meds already have work experience, but that's definitely not a golden ticket into medical school. ADCOMs see tons of applicants doing the very same entry-level clinical jobs over and over again. They don't make you stand out. Also, if you work an entry-level clinical job, ADCOMs will know that you were doing it for the sake of admissions (not that there's anything wrong with it) because I doubt many pre-meds have the ambition of working as career ENTs, CNAs, phlebotomists, and etc. In fact, working so much can make it more difficult to juggle academics. If your grades and MCAT score suffer as a result, then having work experience (which is very common between traditional and non-traditional students) is unlikely to set you apart. If your grades suffer, I highly doubt ADCOMs will buy an excuse saying you had to work full-time, because guess what, there are people who work full-time and still manage to get good grades. It seems like devoting so much time might be too risky for some.

And then if you're a non-traditional student with previous work experience, you still need to work your butt off to get into medical school. No one is handing them golden tickets.
 
the question now is does volunteering to help your application shows true altruism and should adcom's reward this type of volunteering

To me, the question is irrelevant, so long as they do their job and net good comes out of it. The motivations for why people do good vary highly, and rarely ring solely from the definitive desire to help someone else at the cost of your time on this planet with no triggering sequence of events. Some premeds do it to check boxes, maybe others do it to repay a debt to the world they feel they owe, and others to fight the feeling that there's too much bad in the world already, or to put their name on something associated with good. Regardless, the outcome is the same, and it's never going to be possible to truly know someone's motivations. Even if an adcom did, who are they to judge them?
 
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