are ENT allopath residencies out of reach for D.O.s

[allendo]

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I was wondering if ENT residencies are out of reach for D.O.s? I realize that there aren't that many spots per year, but I was wondering if it was like general surg in the fact that D.O.s are still looked down upon.

 

[njbmd]

I was wondering if ENT residencies are out of reach for D.O.s? I realize that there aren't that many spots per year, but I was wondering if it was like general surg in the fact that D.O.s are still looked down upon.

Hi there,
ENT residency slots are not out of reach for DO graduates unless you do not have the grades and scores in the first place. Good ENT residency programs are looking for the best residents possible DO or MD. If your performance in medical school in marginal and your USMLE/COMLEX is poor, you are going to face an uphill battle in getting one of these slots.

Things that you can do to increase your chances regardless of MD or DO: Do an early audition rotation at a program that interests you and would be a good fit and shine. You should have contact with a good faculty advisor who knows your abilities and knows what is out there. Needless to say, you should work hard and show your abilities to your audition program. Spend some quality time with the program director and allow this person to assess your competitiveness with other applicants. This should be a good guage for you. You also should look very closely at programs in states that have solid DO schools such as Ohio, Pennsylvania etc. These programs are just used to seeing more DO applicants which will increase your chances.

Apply to enough programs across the board. ENT is now in the regular MATCH so you need to make sure that you rank enough programs and have enough interviews to match. If you do not get enough invitations, you may want to seriously reconsider applying to ENT because there will not be many places left to scramble into.

If any program looks down upon you especially if you have a good competitive application, you don't want to be at that program in the first place and it is probably not a good program. In 2005, DO versus MD is pretty much a non-entity except in the minds of insecure people. I practice alongside DOs and MDs daily and can find no difference. Most physicians today have the same experience.

Good luck
njbmd 🙂

 

[Khirurg]

why not try DO ENT programs. They are much easier to obtain. Few people in the past two years matched, who are nothing special in terms of grades. In the end you are Board Certified, so it doesn't really matter.

 

[Pikevillemedstudent]

why not try DO ENT programs. They are much easier to obtain. Few people in the past two years matched, who are nothing special in terms of grades. In the end you are Board Certified, so it doesn't really matter.

You have no idea!! Only 18 positions per year available at most, usually less since some programs do not take a resident every year. Programs will not consider you unless you rotate with them, so you only have a real chance at about 3-4 programs at most. I know several students who did not match into DO ENT and had to scramble. One student was number one in his class with great board scores. I know it is competitive. Program directors take who they like the best from the students that rotated with them, not who has the highest board scores. You can really get screwed over if you don't rotate at the right programs. Trust me I know all the in's and out's about osteopathic ENT from experience.

 

[Khirurg]

Buddy, your board scores are not an indication what kind of doctor you will be. I have seen people who got amazing board scores and were absolutely clueless from which side they should approach the patient, while others who could have average boards may be great clinically. Boards are standardized tests which reflect your ability to answer a specifically asked question, and reflect your clinical thinking very vaguelly. Especially COMLEX, which i think is rediculous.
Why am i saying all that? Because if i were a program director i would pick someone i know, someone who i know is motivated, hard working and has a personality, because I have to work with this person for the next five years and i don't want to take $hit from them. Surgery is hard enough to afford constant headache with someone who believes they are god's gift to others, just because they are AOA, 99 Boards, etc. And i believe that this is how a LOT of program directors think. I know someone who rotated through DO ENT, without having the highest grades, and being the top of the class, who is just a very nice hard working person, and they matched, so grades do matter, but i think especially in surgery the workethic you display during rotation on the spot is much better asset in attempting to match.

 

[Pikevillemedstudent]

Buddy, your board scores are not an indication what kind of doctor you will be. I have seen people who got amazing board scores and were absolutely clueless from which side they should approach the patient, while others who could have average boards may be great clinically. Boards are standardized tests which reflect your ability to answer a specifically asked question, and reflect your clinical thinking very vaguelly. Especially COMLEX, which i think is rediculous.
Why am i saying all that? Because if i were a program director i would pick someone i know, someone who i know is motivated, hard working and has a personality, because I have to work with this person for the next five years and i don't want to take $hit from them. Surgery is hard enough to afford constant headache with someone who believes they are god's gift to others, just because they are AOA, 99 Boards, etc. And i believe that this is how a LOT of program directors think. I know someone who rotated through DO ENT, without having the highest grades, and being the top of the class, who is just a very nice hard working person, and they matched, so grades do matter, but i think especially in surgery the workethic you display during rotation on the spot is much better asset in attempting to match.

Reread my post. This is exactly what I said. Board scores are not the most important factor. PD's do pick their resident based on what you said, which happens to also be what I wrote. But anyway, my issue with your post was the fact that you said it was "much easier to obtain". I respectfully disagree for all the reasons above that you and I both stated. You have to actually out perform all the other applicants clinically with your work ethic and knowledge base. This does not sound easy because it is not. All your hard work for each rotation is only for one position. The frustration alone has made some really great applicants decide to not apply. I personally spent 4 months on out rotations, killing myself at each site for the prospect of obtaining 1 of 5 positions. Again, not easy, but it worked out for me, but I know several others it did not, and I honestly feel some of them were very deserving. In the allopathic world, boards, AOA, and research seem to be more important and few MD applicants do as many out rotations ans we have to do. Is it easy to score highly on the USMLE and be AOA? of course not. But it is also not easy to obtain a DO ENT spot because of the reasons above. Otherwise, I think we agree on everything else.

 

[Pir8DeacDoc]

Most of the time we can't do as many aways as you might do. Curriculum at most MD schools has quite a few months of requirements for the fourth year where you can't just take 5 months worth of electives or take more than 3 months in any specific field. It sounds like maybe it's different than that at your school?

I could be wrong but I think the above posters point was that your shot might be better in DO ENT (although still admittedly very difficult) than MD ENT which is also full of very well-qualified applicants. Whether right or wrong, when a PD has a ton of great applicants they'll screen out based on about anything, in this case being a DO.

Glad your hard work paid off for you. Congrats!

 

[Khirurg]

I absolutely agree. In my mind, it is easier to work hard and yes, suck up a bit, then spend all that time on research, pay extra fees for USMLE that you don't really need to take, and then be told during an interview, that "we don't like DOs", if you even get an interview. At least there is no bias like that in DO ENT programs.

 

[neilc]

At least there is no bias like that in DO ENT programs.

as far as i know, and MD cannot even get a DO residency if they wanted one. that sounds a LOT more biased to me....

 

[mddo2b]

Buddy, your board scores are not an indication what kind of doctor you will be. I have seen people who got amazing board scores and were absolutely clueless from which side they should approach the patient, while others who could have average boards may be great clinically. Boards are standardized tests which reflect your ability to answer a specifically asked question, and reflect your clinical thinking very vaguelly. Especially COMLEX, which i think is rediculous.
Why am i saying all that? Because if i were a program director i would pick someone i know, someone who i know is motivated, hard working and has a personality, because I have to work with this person for the next five years and i don't want to take $hit from them. Surgery is hard enough to afford constant headache with someone who believes they are god's gift to others, just because they are AOA, 99 Boards, etc. And i believe that this is how a LOT of program directors think. I know someone who rotated through DO ENT, without having the highest grades, and being the top of the class, who is just a very nice hard working person, and they matched, so grades do matter, but i think especially in surgery the workethic you display during rotation on the spot is much better asset in attempting to match.

I agree to a certai extent....I know it is possible, i know a couple of people that did it. I also agree that hard work goes a LONG way....However, board scores DO count (believe me,i am a person who doesnt test all that well), and program directors lean on them big time. It will definetley be a huge benifit to take the USMLE, it wont hurt you and it will allow you to shine on an even playing field when you interview....take the test if you study you will do as well as the COMLEX ( i actually did a lot better on the USMLE than COMLEX....if u want it dont let anyone stand in your way....it is doable

 

[cchoukal]

Having interviewed in ENT this past year (and subsequently withdrew to pursue a different specialty), I can tell you that I didn't meet a single DO student on the trail. The people I met were graduates of good MD schools, all were AOA (yes, all), and many had publications in the field. There were also a couple of program directors that admitted to a Step I cut-off.

ENT is an extremely competitive specialty; last year the match rate for graduating US MD seniors was below 80%. I'm not trying to be a jerk, and I don't have an MD bias, but I feel like someone needs to give you the facts so you can be informed. Based on my impressions at the 9 programs that interviewed me, it would be unlikely for anyone but the best DO graduates to land a spot.

 

[cchoukal]

Having interviewed in ENT this past year (and subsequently withdrew to pursue a different specialty), I can tell you that I didn't meet a single DO student on the trail. The people I met were graduates of good MD schools, all were AOA (yes, all), and many had publications in the field. There were also a couple of program directors that admitted to a Step I cut-off.

ENT is an extremely competitive specialty; last year the match rate for graduating US MD seniors was below 80%. I'm not trying to be a jerk, and I don't have an MD bias, but I feel like someone needs to give you the facts so you can be informed. Based on my impressions at the 9 programs that interviewed me, it would be unlikely for anyone but the best DO graduates to land a spot.

This certainly wasn't to dissuade you. If you have all these qualifications (do DO schools have AOA?), you should still go for it, but I'd have a sturdy back-up plan. ENT is going through the regular match next year, so you won't know ahead of time how it went. That is, you won't know until the actual match day whether you'll be an ear doc or whatever your back-up is.

 

[cyanocobalamin]

...all were AOA (yes, all)...

Harvard and Stanford don't have AOA and they do match people into ENT. Do people have badges they wear on interview day saying they are AOA? And there ARE nonAOA people in ENT from schools with AOA chapters who match ENT (as well as AOAers going to peds).

My impression is that ENT is a very chummy specialty simply because it's small and relationships and connections are paramount and important in addition to paper qualifications. The whole match process is rather idiosyncratic.

I mean one can always apply - what's the worst thing that can happen - not matching, right?

 

[Pir8DeacDoc]

I contend that there are more hoops for a DO to jump through and "just apply" might not be so easy. As mentioned above, they'll have to take the USMLE's in addition to their own test. I don't guess a huge deal, but definitely a bit more than "just apply" and see what happens.

 

[Pikevillemedstudent]

I do know of DO's at allopathic ENT residencies in the past. Look at Geisinger in Danville, PA, Cleveland Clinic, and even Northwestern. I know there is a current DO at Geisinger, the others have had DO's in the past. I chose to not pursue an allopathic residency due to all the extra hoops but it is doable for the outstanding osteopathic applicant. Since the DO match is now before the MD match, I would definitely not apply to the MD programs. Your chances are better at AOA programs although it is by no means easy.

 

[Glass Half MD?]

Just to clear up something that I think is being confused on this thread:
In the allopathic world, AOA is "Alpha Omega Alpha", the honors society with takes only the top 8-12% of the M4 or more rarely M3 class. Competetive programs usually hold this at a high regard

AOA, from what I understand, in the osteopathic world is the "American Osteopathic Association."

ENT is a very competetive field. In the 2004 match, the average USMLE Step 1 score was around 239. The majority of the people that match are in the AOA honors society. It would be extremely difficult for a DO student to match out of med school into an allopathic ENT program. There are just so many MD applicants with excellent credentials that don't match as it is and, regardless what some say, there is a DO bias. However, if a DO student absolutely rocked the boards, published in the field, and made connections, it wouldn't be impossible.

 

[Pikevillemedstudent]

Just to clear up something that I think is being confused on this thread:
In the allopathic world, AOA is "Alpha Omega Alpha", the honors society with takes only the top 8-12% of the M4 or more rarely M3 class. Competetive programs usually hold this at a high regard

AOA, from what I understand, in the osteopathic world is the "American Osteopathic Association."

Well just to make it completely clear. When I said AOA in my most recent post I meant American Osteopathic Association. AOA accredits our residencies like ACGME does allopathic residencies.