Are foreign PharmDs going to affect our salary?

[jasmine0211]

Interesting comment by a California PharmD in regards to a NY Pharmacy Shortage Article:

"Submitted by stephen, Mar 20, 2008 06:01

I'm a PharmD in California, one of the acute "shortage" states. I've applied to 40 jobs in the past 3 months and have only been asked to 5 interviews. The local chains will only hire foreign grads that they can pay lower sals and no bonuses.

The perceived shortage is a lie manufactured by the chains to increase their H1B quotas.

The only shortage areas are in the rural parts where they don't bother paying comparable salaries.

H1B grads don't want to work out there from what I've seen.

There is an EXCESS of pharmacists in most other states.

Let's take Pharmacy off the shortage list and provide incentives for rural areas."

What's your opinion of the matter? Is the increase of foreign pharmacists going to affect PharmDs educated in the United States? If so, what can we do about it?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[azPharmD2B]

I wouldnt be surprised if this were true. The same thing is happening in the computer programming world. Microsoft is claiming there is a shortage of programmers, thus they need more H1-B visas. What they really mean is there is a shortage of foreign programmers willing to work for peanuts and that if said worker pisses Microsoft off they get fired and immediately deported.

 

[npage148]

Well, in NY you need to be a US citizen to work as a pharmacist. So I guess it's not an issue here.

 

[genesis09]

I've personally never met a practicing foreign grad pharmacist, but that is because I'm from Illinois. Illinois has very strict requirements about that.

 

[jasmine0211]

Well, in NY you need to be a US citizen to work as a pharmacist. So I guess it's not an issue here.

Really? Wow, good to know!! I didn't go through 8 years of school to have my job outsourced

I wonder if physicians are having similar problems

 

[npage148]

nm

 

[MountainPharmD]

It is affecting how long it takes me to get a transfer from CVS when I can't understand the babbling Indian or Pakistani on the other end of the phone.

 

[Nae614]

It is affecting how long it takes me to get a transfer from CVS when I can't understand the babbling Indian or Pakistani on the other end of the phone.

What exactly do you mean by "babbling Indian or Pakistani"?? I'd really appreciate it if you to clarify that incredibly rude statement.

Let me guess: You are Caucasian, and think that everyone in this world needs to talk like you and have the same accent because it is the "right/normal/correct" way to speak.

 

[confettiflyer]

What exactly do you mean by "babbling Indian or Pakistani"?? I'd really appreciate it if you to clarify that incredibly rude statement.

Let me guess: You are Caucasian, and think that everyone in this world needs to talk like you and have the same accent because it is the "right/normal/correct" way to speak.

hahah someone got offended on the internet, wow, didn't see that one coming.

 

[Moxxie]

What exactly do you mean by "babbling Indian or Pakistani"?? I'd really appreciate it if you to clarify that incredibly rude statement.

Let me guess: You are Caucasian, and think that everyone in this world needs to talk like you and have the same accent because it is the "right/normal/correct" way to speak.

No, I'm betting that he's like most of us - he doesn't care where a pharmacist is from, but realizes that patient care can be compromised when the pharmacist on the other end of the phone can't pronounce a patient's name, their medication, or the doctor's name. And then when they are asked to spell it, they have a tough time with that. I recently had to call a pharmacy in California on three separate occasions because the pharmacist on the other line kept giving me the wrong information each time (the DEA number, etc.) The pharmacist ended up having to give the phone to a tech to complete the transfer - and I'm a very patient person. It just seemed like too much for this pharmacist to give me the info that I legally needed.

It's also not helpful when a pharmacist (or any healthcare worker, for that matter), can't effectively communicate instructions to a patient.

I personally don't care if someone has an accent or if they're from timbuktoo. English proficiency (beyond just basic comprehension) is NECESSARY if you're dealing with the public everyday.

 

[Nae614]

No, I'm betting that he's like most of us - he doesn't care where a pharmacist is from, but realizes that patient care can be compromised when the pharmacist on the other end of the phone can't pronounce a patient's name, their medication, or the doctor's name. And then when they are asked to spell it, they have a tough time with that. I recently had to call a pharmacy in California on three separate occasions because the pharmacist on the other line kept giving me the wrong information each time (the DEA number, etc.) The pharmacist ended up having to give the phone to a tech to complete the transfer - and I'm a very patient person. It just seemed like too much for this pharmacist to give me the info that I legally needed.

It's also not helpful when a pharmacist (or any healthcare worker, for that matter), can't effectively communicate instructions to a patient.

I personally don't care if someone has an accent or if they're from timbuktoo. English proficiency (beyond just basic comprehension) is NECESSARY if you're dealing with the public everyday.

I appreciate your clarification on this and understand what you are saying, BUT what Jasmine0211 said by singling out certain nationalities is certainly Not right. I really don't want to get into an argument about ethnic stereotypes, but Indian/Pakistanis are definitely Not the first ethnicities that come to mind when one thinks of accents that are hard to understand.

 

[bananaface]

I have worked with a few pharmacists who moved here from overseas.

One was from Bosnia and was going to possibly have to apply for political refugee status in Canada because he was having post-911 induced issues getting his work Visa renewed. (Like, 1 year wait, 8 months until expiration, used to take alot less time.) He was a really good clinical pharmacist and our hospital was lucky to have him.

I worked retail with a brand new guy from India, still doing his internship, and he was completely unqualified. He had a PhD in something like drug design, but he was missing much of the rest of a pharmacist's knowledge base. He even told me flat out that his degree had not prepared him at all to practice pharmacy. I would hope from a safety perspective that our degree equivalency laws be written better.

 

[BrownSound]

In reply to MountainPharmD:


I definitely agree that there needs to be more regulations for IPGs. I myself am a first year student and am very worried how pharmacies are hiring IPGs at a lower wage. Ofcourse its good for the company, but it jepordizes patient care, gives a bad rep to pharamcists to the public and cuts into whatever demand is left for pharamcists in major urban areas. As a matter of fact, I'd like to see a more strict set of rules and procedures to only allow the very best IPGs to acquire a license. If you think about it, Dentistry, Medicine and other professions do not allow foreign trained graduates to easily practice in North America.

BUT and its a big but:

The racial stereotyping is NOT ACCEPTABLE, specially when certain nationalities are being mentioned. I definitely agree with you that some incompetent IPGs are making it difficult for everyone, but you were wrong to bring in nationalities.

 

[medicalCPA]

I appreciate your clarification on this and understand what you are saying, BUT what Jasmine0211 said by singling out certain nationalities is certainly Not right. I really don't want to get into an argument about ethnic stereotypes, but Indian/Pakistanis are definitely Not the first ethnicities that come to mind when one thinks of accents that are hard to understand.

First of all, let's ascribe blame to whom blame is due: jasmine0211 did not make the comment about "babbling Indian/Pakistani." MountainPharmD did.

I agree with BrownSound. If foreign pharmacists are hired, then the least that drug chains can do is to ensure that they hire the best ones they can. If corporate greed will not allow drug chains to do so, then the profession must step in and, through the passage of rules and regulations, make such a practice mandatory. If this doesn't happen, the profession of pharmacy will suffer the ill effects.

Concerning accents, I'm an international student, and I'm of the persuasion that if you live or work in a foreign country, the least you should do is ensure that you can communicate with the citizens of that country. One should adapt to a culture, not expect the culture to adapt to one.

 

[azPharmD2B]

I find some New Yorkers harder to understand than some of the int'l pharmacists I work with.

 

[Nae614]

First of all, let's ascribe blame to whom blame is due: jasmine0211 did not make the comment about "babbling Indian/Pakistani." MountainPharmD did.

I agree with BrownSound. If foreign pharmacists are hired, then the least that drug chains can do is to ensure that they hire the best ones they can. If corporate greed will not allow drug chains to do so, then the profession must step in and, through the passage of rules and regulations, make such a practice mandatory. If this doesn't happen, the profession of pharmacy will suffer the ill effects.

Concerning accents, I'm an international student, and I'm of the persuasion that if you live or work in a foreign country, the least you should do is ensure that you can communicate with the citizens of that country. One should adapt to a culture, not expect the culture to adapt to one.

Just noticed this. Sorry Jasmine0211

 

[BMBiology]

Frankly, if you are worried about foreign grads taking away your well deserved and paid job, then most likely you are not a very good pharmacist.

 

[RNtoPharmD]

See how nurses historically have worked hard and gotten crappy pay??? It is partly due to the influx of foreign nurse. It is much easier to get permanent residency through nursing than pharmacy (not now). But again, we owed them too. Without them, the healthcare system might have been collapsed a few decades ago when there was severe nursing shortage.

This is a moral argument.. Some people may say yeah!! Why not just let them come here?.. American is free country so we should let anyone come here... We owed a lot to the immigrants too.. The success of this is country is partly contributed by immigrants. As an immigrant myself, I also partly believe in this principle..

However, realistically, it partly affects the wage. And this can be double-edged. The lower salary may lower heathcare cost, benefiting the patients and community. If you were not a pharmacist or nurses, would you want that to happen?? But for pharmacists, that won't be too good. Same applied to immigrant labor related to low-skilled job. Even though I used to be a foreigner (well.. still an alien), I don't want to go through another 4 year of school and can't find a decent job.

The solution is to find the compromise between this two ideas..
Yes, foreign pharmacists should be allowed to immigrate to the US but they should set a fair limit. I know that the board are trying to implement this by requiring foreign grads to do more internship hours prior to being eligible to take licensing exam.

I may be biased but I think the limit should be applied only on those pharmacists coming from oversea only and they should allows unlimited "international student" that graduated from US. accredited to work. They studied here and have graduated from here and assimilated to culture in the US.. Not allowing them to work is like saying US pharmacy education is not qualified for working in the US??

 

[azPharmD2B]

Frankly, if you are worried about foreign grads taking away your well deserved and paid job, then most likely you are not a very good pharmacist.

Frankly, if you knew how major corporations work you'd realize how wrong your statement is.

Why are so many call centers in India? Because there aren't any good customer service or technical people here in America? lol No, its cause they can pay an Indian who speaks decent English a helluva lot less than minimum wage here in America. Laws are different, benefits are different. Costs can be cut dramatically. The only negative is that your customers now hate calling for help. But that's really only a negative if one of your competitors hasn't outsourced to an Indian call center.

Sorry but the days of "show up for work on time, work hard, and have a job for life" are long gone. You can be the best damn employee possible, but it doesn't matter when the bean counters see how much you are making versus how little they can pay your replacement. See my first post in this thread, Microsoft is notorious for H1-B visa abuse.

 

[jasmine0211]

Frankly, if you are worried about foreign grads taking away your well deserved and paid job, then most likely you are not a very good pharmacist.

It is not an issue of lack of jobs but more an issue of salary per hour.

My issue is that these Pharmacists who are getting hired from overseas need to demand higher pay. Willing to work x dollars less per hour than what an American Pharmacist would charge affects our wages.

H1B Sponsor pharmacies offer lower pay to foreign pharmacists and the foreign pharmacist has to commit to them for x years. It's not fair to the foreign pharmacists and because of the trickling effect, it is not fair to American Pharmacists.

And yes, there is a huge difference between a retail chain paying $43 an hour to a pharmacist versus $57+ an hour - especially living in areas with high costs of living.

For those of us considering retail, it's going to affect us. For those of us working in hospital, not so much so.

I want to see Pharmacists salaries go up, not down or stay static.

 

[RNtoPharmD]

Frankly, if you are worried about foreign grads taking away your well deserved and paid job, then most likely you are not a very good pharmacist.

Being a foreigner myself, I still have to undeniably agree with the two posters above. This is partly wrong statement.

 

[BMBiology]

Frankly, if you knew how major corporations work you'd realize how wrong your statement is.

If you are a business owner, would you pay someone more than what is necessary?

This is like California pharmacists wanting to make the board difficult so non California pharmacists would not be able to practice in California. I say to you as I say to them: if other pharmacists can do the same job as you, then you should be worried. You are not entitled to anything. No one is taking anything from you. It is a competitive world. Deal with it.

 

[BMBiology]

I'm a PharmD in California, one of the acute "shortage" states. I've applied to 40 jobs in the past 3 months and have only been asked to 5 interviews. The local chains will only hire foreign grads that they can pay lower sals and no bonuses.

This is just wrong. I live in California and all of my pharmacy friends got multi job offers.

 

[pharmer27]

well I am a foreign grad, I always get paid like an american grad, my previous employer actually paid me more than the american grads. I agree that there is a pay cut b'cos of foreign nationals in other fields but not in the retail pharmacy.

 

[Priapism321]

If you work for companies who really don't give a **** about much else than making a profit, then yes, you will lose your job to anyone who is willing to do it for less money. This is America, and if I was a V.P. for CVS, I'd hire a foreign Pharm.D. at $44 (or anyone for that matter) an hour before hiring some american stumbling out of Pharm. school with a 2.0 wanting $55 an hour. And for the record, I actually find it hard to believe that pharmacists are being paid different wages based on their nationality. However, if people are crying/complaining, this is a perfect opportunity for me to tell you people to do something that will distinguish yourself from whoever you may be afraid of/worried about/intimidated by. Guess what, being american will not suffice.

 

[confettiflyer]

...

 

[azPharmD2B]

If you are a business owner, would you pay someone more than what is necessary?

I wouldn't, but I also wouldn't lie about needing more H1-B visas to meet demand.

I say to you as I say to them: if other pharmacists can do the same job as you, then you should be worried. You are not entitled to anything. No one is taking anything from you. It is a competitive world. Deal with it.

You must be unfamiliar with H1-B visas and how they work. H1-B visas exist to allow foreign nationals into the US in order to work for a set amount of time at a specific company. H1-B's are offered when industries indicated that the current American workforce does not contain enough qualified workers for the current job demand.

Unfortunately this is being abused. Rather than pay existing American workers a fair market wage, companies cry to Congress that the world is going to end if they don't get more H1-B visas. So Congress allows more. Company hires foreign worker for far cheaper than an equally qualified available American worker. Here's the kicker, the foreign worker is at the mercy of the American company. If they get fired they are immediately deported. Think about that for a minute. Habib Sixpack from India comes here to work, is told he'll work 40 hours/week for X$. After he's settled in the company indicates he needs to work more and more hours for the same money or is forced to work crap schedules. The guy has no choice. If he quits he gets deported. If he resists, the company can fire him and he gets deported.

Do you not see the problem with this? It puts the power entirely within the hands of greedy corporations. The checks and balances are broken.

 

[jasmine0211]

This is just wrong. I live in California and all of my pharmacy friends got multi job offers.

It's not the job offers, it's the salary. How much negotiation power do you have when someone else is willing to work for less?

Would you rather have 10 chains offering you 57+ an hour or 5 chains offering you 57+?

It also depends on the chain and location - I live in Northern California, not Southern. Read the forums and you'll know the areas that are being affected.

Biggest H1B visa sponsor - RiteAid

 

[cdpiano27]

I agree with the above poster. In Europe, this type of thing never happens. For example, in France, the French government has very strict rules that are very good! They have many unions to protect the worker, and have strict limitations on foreign workers and rules that demand the same pay. We should copy what the French do! And both foreign and American are getting abused, unless you are the abuser! The idea of little government intervention can only go so far.

This really did happen especially in the software industry durng 9/11. On the GRE, I wrote a highly charged, controversial essay about this but supported my statements very well and received a 6/6.

 

[jasmine0211]

If you work for companies who really don't give a **** about much else than making a profit, then yes, you will lose your job to anyone who is willing to do it for less money. This is America, and if I was a V.P. for CVS, I'd hire a foreign Pharm.D. at $44 (or anyone for that matter) an hour before hiring some american stumbling out of Pharm. school with a 2.0 wanting $55 an hour.

Pharma has always been about business. If a retail company can pay you less, they will - that's not the topic. The topic here is why give them any power to do so.

They scream "shortage" of pharmacists yet isn't willing to increase pay substantially or add more perks to the position

They scream that the "shortage" of pharmacists is affecting the healthcare system yet they still under-staff the pharmacy.

They scream "shortage" of pharmacist to increase # H1B Sponsorship.

And for the record, I actually find it hard to believe that pharmacists are being paid different wages based on their nationality.

It's not based on Nationality. It's based on whether or not the company who hired you is your H1B Sponsor.

However, if people are crying/complaining, this is a perfect opportunity for me to tell you people to do something that will distinguish yourself from whoever you may be afraid of/worried about/intimidated by. Guess what, being american will not suffice.

Wait until it starts affecting hospitals, then we'll see how your residency makes you stand out. Pay a visit to Silicon Valley sometime soon and talk to the programmers here. They'll give you insight on just how much "skill level" can set you apart.

Why would you support anything that would decrease your future colleague's chance of getting paid better or keep your profession as a standstill in terms of pay?

 

[BMBiology]

It's not the job offers, it's the salary. How much negotiation power do you have when someone else is willing to work for less?

The original poster said she only received 5 interviews out of 40. I find that hard to believe or she's not a very competitive candidate and just like to blame others. All of my friends got the same generouos offers from all of these companies. Not more. Not less. Kaiser is offering 60+ an hour. Guess what? It's union so everyone gets pay the same.

If H-1 Visas are hurting pharmacists' salary, then why is it at an all time high? That doesn't make much sense. I would like you to post some specific studies to back up your bold statement that pharmacists' salary is being affected by H-1 Visas. I am not talking about some studies about the computer industry either. I am talking about pharmacy. No opinion. Just facts.

 

[BMBiology]

I wouldn't, but I also wouldn't lie about needing more H1-B visas to meet demand.

This is about greed. You want to keep the shortage high so you can make more money. The corporates want to keep the shortage low so they can make more money. You and these greedy corporations have the same mentality so lets not kid ourselves.

 

[confettiflyer]

I wouldn't, but I also wouldn't lie about needing more H1-B visas to meet demand.

You must be unfamiliar with H1-B visas and how they work. H1-B visas exist to allow foreign nationals into the US in order to work for a set amount of time at a specific company. H1-B's are offered when industries indicated that the current American workforce does not contain enough qualified workers for the current job demand.

Mmm this is not really how H1B visas work. Companies are not required to solicit employment from US Citizens before looking for H1B visa candidates. Basically, you can argue a shortage to Congress, but you are in no way obligated to even look first, you can go straight to H1B. You can even displace a US Citizen from his or her job with an H1B holder. Check this link: http://www.dol.gov/_sec/stratplan/strat_plan_2006-2011.pdf on page 35, 2nd paragraph on the left column.

Further, companies are required to pay the prevailing wage to an H1B holder as they would a US Citizen given the same credentials. However, this is usually not the case.

H1B is a giant corporate subsidy IMO.

 

[RNtoPharmD]

Further, companies are required to pay the prevailing wage to an H1B holder as they would a US Citizen given the same credentials. However, this is usually not the case.

Even if the employer are required to pay the prevailing wage, the problem still exists! Undeniably, it will decrease the job vacancies.

If the employer can find foreign workers that will cost them only the average prevailing wage at anytime, then they don't have to be worried about retaining existing pharmacist or attracting new applicants. This is competitive/business world OK!

As a result, they will lack incentives to give pharmacists a raise/sign-on bonus/loyalty-bonus to beat other employer competitors and to keep up with living cost, the worst of all, they may also lack incentive to improve workload and working environment.

Yes, BMbilogy, we may be all greedy. The solution is to find the compromise or the middle line by not creating the shortage too severe that it will hurt the public and at the same time trying to set the limit on immigration to prevent oversupply.

I think INS should offer special visa category call "pharmacist-H1B" and limit the quota per year based on the projected vacancies, which also consider the projected supply of US new grads. This will maintain the demand-supply at the equilibrium point.

And.. I know the equilibrium point is difficult to achieve.. That's why the shortage is cyclic..

 

[RNtoPharmD]

If H-1 Visas are hurting pharmacists' salary, then why is it at an all time high? That doesn't make much sense. I would like you to post some specific studies to back up your bold statement that pharmacists' salary is being affected by H-1 Visas. I am not talking about some studies about the computer industry either. I am talking about pharmacy. No opinion. Just facts.

IMO, I don't think it get to that critical point that people start to make statistics out of it yet. Unlike nursing and computer field, Boards of pharmacy do a good job of slowing the process down by making it stricter to obtain the state license by requiring lots of intership hours & education int the US & (in NY I think) citizenship. I don't think this sounds fair, and I think the preferred method is using the visa quota.

Without those rules, we will face the same destiny as in computer and nursing.

Would we want the problem to reach the point that it begins to impact first before starting implementing somethings? Primary prevention is the key. Once it happen, it may be difficult to reverse.

The fair game is the put the quota on the amount of visa allocated exclusively for pharmacists per year.