Are medical students naturally arrogant?

Started by Patty Grace
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"I am brave, I am strong. Perfume of success thoughts blows in me, blows in me. I am cool, I am calm, I am sweet, I am kind, I am love and sympathy, I am charming and magnetic, I am pleased with all; I wipe away all tears and fears. I have no enemy. I am the friend of all."
-Paramahansa Yogananda
 
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WhippleWhileWeWork said:
Hang on English major, only Engineers can make fun of other Engineers.

EE is some weird/hard ****. They don't have the luxury of physically seeing what results from their calculations. Electrons...like magic or aliens.
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I married one, so legally pretty sure I'm allowed to shet on EEs.
 
PL198 said:
Medical students aren't generally that smart. I have kids in my class that didn't know Obama was re-running for election in 2012, and still don't know Biden's name. This is arbitrary of course, but I'd guess 1 SD above average intelligence on average.

People in intellectual fields might be smarter, but 99/100 they aren't harder working. Each has it's pros/cons, but that's the basics of it IMO. People that want to be mentally stimulated by abstract concepts and such go into academics. People that want to solve problems and be mentally stimulated that way, go into medicine.
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Your first paragraph indicated to me that I should stop reading your post and lump you in with the those who you describe as not "smart". The second paragraph confirmed it.
 
:whistle:

Thoughts?

1384370479469409.jpg
 
NontradCA said:
If life was a Disney movie.
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Hey, nothing wrong with doing something you're indifferent to or that isn't your top pick of careers. Paper doesn't make itself, after all. But doing something you can't stand for crazy long hours every week just for the money is just plain stupid. There's too many other ways to make money out there that will eat up substantially less of your life.
 
Mad Jack said:
Hey, nothing wrong with doing something you're indifferent to or that isn't your top pick of careers. Paper doesn't make itself, after all. But doing something you can't stand for crazy long hours every week just for the money is just plain stupid. There's too many other ways to make money out there that will eat up substantially less of your life.
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Were going to have to agree to disagree. In a world where someone will kill, steal and lie for small amounts of money I can't buy into this. No matter what you do for work, it will always be stressful and get old. Even if you don't work, it will be stressful.

All that dreaming is good and fun....until life kicks in.
 
NontradCA said:
Were going to have to agree to disagree. In a world where someone will kill, steal and lie for small amounts of money I can't buy into this. No matter what you do for work, it will always be stressful and get old. Even if you don't work, it will be stressful.

All that dreaming is good and fun....until life kicks in.
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There's hundreds of thousands of possible jobs out there one can work. I've hated what I did before and switched fields. Hell, that's how I ended up pursuing medicine. If I get sick of that, I'll switch to something else. It isn't about doing what I love, per se, it's about not doing what I hate. And there is a *very* big difference between doing something you don't enjoy and doing something you hate. The former makes you actually loathe your own existence, while the latter just makes you slog through the day but you can shake off when you go home. I define hating your career as having a career so unbearable it actually diminishes your quality of life during non-work hours.

Honest question: why do you insist that one cannot move to another, more bearable field if your current one is awful to the point it actually negatively impacts your quality of life? It's not like there aren't other jobs out there, I just don't get it.
 
NontradCA said:
Were going to have to agree to disagree. In a world where someone will kill, steal and lie for small amounts of money I can't buy into this. No matter what you do for work, it will always be stressful and get old. Even if you don't work, it will be stressful.

All that dreaming is good and fun....until life kicks in.
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Yeah a lot of other jobs suck, and suck worse than medicine (apparently), but getting those jobs won't cost most people 4+4+(3 to 7+) years of education and training, plus 200-400k of debt, and won't lead to 30+ years of working 60 hour weeks.

What are you disagreeing with, exactly?
 
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After working in restaurants since high school (and a variety of other crap jobs) and seeing the people that will no doubt be stuck there for life, I'm thrilled for the chance to go to med school/practice medicine. I'm a firm believer that regardless of the job, you have both good days and bad, and attitude makes a big difference.
 
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Mad Jack said:
There's hundreds of thousands of possible jobs out there one can work.
Honest question: why do you insist that one cannot move to another, more bearable field if your current one is awful to the point it actually negatively impacts your quality of life? It's not like there aren't other jobs out there, I just don't get it.
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They must be hidden under a rock bc our economy still stucks.
 
Roxas said:
After working in restaurants since high school (and a variety of other crap jobs) and seeing the people that will no doubt be stuck there for life, I'm thrilled for the chance to go to med school/practice medicine. I'm a firm believer that regardless of the job, you have both good days and bad, and attitude makes a big difference.
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Thank you MS-0!
 
DermViser said:
They must be hidden under a rock bc our economy still stucks.
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Hot jobs:

Landscaping, albeit fluent Spanish is a must.

Repo Man, 6'2 +, 240 lbs +, almost a must, can be waved for ex-cons, ex-spec. ops, or really, really mean midgets.

UPS truck driver, best job in the country. The secret is out. What can Brown do for you? An awesome job, that's what.
 
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Roxas said:
I will keep that in mind. Although a humble MS-0, I still feel qualified to say that waiting tables sucks balls, and I hope medicine is better
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The keys are to stay humble, not be a gunner (the real definition, not the fake definition), ask for help at the earliest signs of trouble if needed, work hard, take care of yourself both mentally and physically, not to not take constructive criticism as a chance to beat up on yourself but as a chance to improve, and to let certain comments roll right off your back. If you have a supportive family, cherish them. They'll be one of your biggest cheerleaders in this journey.
 
DermViser said:
The keys are to stay humble, not be a gunner (the real definition, not the fake definition), ask for help at the earliest signs of trouble if needed, work hard, take care of yourself both mentally and physically, not to not take constructive criticism as a chance to beat up on yourself but as a chance to improve, and to let certain comments roll right off your back. If you have a supportive family, cherish them. They'll be one of your biggest cheerleaders in this journey.
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The other keys are free tuition and marrying into a trust fund. AmIright?
 
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yappy said:
Your first paragraph indicated to me that I should stop reading your post and lump you in with the those who you describe as not "smart". The second paragraph confirmed it.
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Lol yes because medicine isn't about solving puzzles, and academia isn't about abstract concepts. Do tell.
 
WhippleWhileWeWork said:
Hang on English major, only Engineers can make fun of other Engineers.

EE is some weird/hard ****. They don't have the luxury of physically seeing what results from their calculations. Electrons...like magic, aliens, or unicorns.
Click to expand...

Are you telling me electrical engineers are wizards???
 
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WhippleWhileWeWork said:
Hot jobs:

Landscaping, albeit fluent Spanish is a must.

Repo Man, 6'2 +, 240 lbs +, almost a must, can be waved for ex-cons, ex-spec. ops, or really, really mean midgets.

UPS truck driver, best job in the country. The secret is out. What can Brown do for you? An awesome job, that's what.
Click to expand...
According to the tech school near my apartment, solar panel installer is one of the hottest jobs under the sun...
 
WhippleWhileWeWork said:
Hang on English major, only Engineers can make fun of other Engineers.
Click to expand...

I don't know.... this line of thinking has always bugged me.
"My friend is asian so it's ok for me to say this..."
"I'm white so it's ok for me to say this..."
"It's ok for X to make fun of X, but Y can't make fun of X"
and so on and so forth...

If your comments are made with malice, then what's ok about it even if you know/relate/whatever to that group?
And if your comments are just made in jest but with good intent, then why does it matter if you aren't part of that group?
 
Doctor Bob said:
I don't know.... this line of thinking has always bugged me.
"My friend is asian so it's ok for me to say this..."
"I'm white so it's ok for me to say this..."
"It's ok for X to make fun of X, but Y can't make fun of X"
and so on and so forth...

If your comments are made with malice, then what's ok about it even if you know/relate/whatever to that group?
And if your comments are just made in jest but with good intent, then why does it matter if you aren't part of that group?
Click to expand...

I get that it's stupid and I don't condone it, but it has more to do with humor being a defense mechanism and so we cut people some slack when it's something they have to deal with on a regular basis. There are certain things that are a little absurd about our sub-cultures, so sometimes we need to laugh at them.

Im-Jewish-so-this-counts-as-self-deprecation,-making-it-that-much-more-Jewy.png
 
Brain Bucket said:
I get that it's stupid and I don't condone it, but it has more to do with humor being a defense mechanism and so we cut people some slack when it's something they have to deal with on a regular basis. There are certain things that are a little absurd about our sub-cultures, so sometimes we need to laugh at them.

View attachment 181910
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I love cyanide and happiness, thanks for the reminder, I havn't read it in almost a week.
 
yappy said:
That will not stop engineering grads from suggesting that they are, however. Just wait till you have them as patients & they're smugly attempting to steer your clinical decisions because they've spent a few min researching it online. After all - they do quality assurance of metal washers at Washers Inc & got an B- in Diffeq 15 years ago; how hard can medicine be?
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I completely agree that a lot of laypersons out there could spend all day on the internet researching their symptoms and still not be able to tell their ass from their elbow. However, and I'm sure this will be taken offensively by any PCPs who read this, if you're an intelligent person with a university background in the sciences and are familiar with journals and effective researching, its not hard to learn more about a lot of pathologies than an FM knows, after spending about 20-30 minutes on google and pubmed. Not hating on them by any means (I will probably become one myself), its just simply the nature of the job as a PCP that the scope of practice is so broad there is no possible way they can have detailed knowledge of every disease and injury out there.

Back in undergrad I had a bit of seborrheic dermatitis on my face I wanted to get taken care of. Did about 30 minutes of researching on google to arrive at a definitive self-diagnosis (it was an extremely classical presentation of seborrheic dermatitis) and I knew exactly what the most effective and up-to-date treatments were for it. I knew the detailed presentation, I knew the pathophysiology. Definitely not saying that I was anything special for knowing any of this, just pointing out that it is easily possible to learn a hell of a lot about one specific disease in a relatively short period of time if you are an intelligent and scientifically minded person.

I went to the FM knowing exactly what I was looking for, and yes I tried to steer the doctors clinical decision... as I should. Luckily the doc did not respond as condescendingly as you would have. I get there and she wasn't even sure if it was dermatitis, psoriasis, rosacea or something else. I explained to her why I thought it was seborrheic dermatitis and luckily she did not become smug and defensive, but humbly agreed that I was probably right and prescribed the appropriate medication. To think that its not possible for an intelligent and educated patient to learn more detailed information about a specific disease than an average FM would know (especially the more obscure / uncommon pathologies) after 30 minutes of effective internet researching is a little bit out of touch with reality in the age of google, pubmed and uptodate. I know its tough to swallow that after a decade of medical education an intelligent patient can learn more about some diseases in 30 minutes of googling than I will know about the disease as an attending. It's the reality of the internet age though.
 
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Doctor Bob said:
I don't know.... this line of thinking has always bugged me.
"My friend is asian so it's ok for me to say this..."
"I'm white so it's ok for me to say this..."
"It's ok for X to make fun of X, but Y can't make fun of X"
and so on and so forth...

If your comments are made with malice, then what's ok about it even if you know/relate/whatever to that group?
And if your comments are just made in jest but with good intent, then why does it matter if you aren't part of that group?
Click to expand...

I think initially it had to do with relatability more than anything else. But for some reason we've (as a society) jumped from "you can't really relate" to "you shall not utter a word on this subject, you -ist-word". :shrug:
 
I've been an insufferable, pretentious **** for as long as I can remember. Even in kindergarten the other boys would try to beat me up because they were jealous.
 
sidefx said:
I completely agree that a lot of laypersons out there could spend all day on the internet researching their symptoms and still not be able to tell their ass from their elbow. However, and I'm sure this will be taken offensively by any PCPs who read this, if you're an intelligent person with a university background in the sciences and are familiar with journals and effective researching, its not hard to learn more about a lot of pathologies than an FM knows, after spending about 20-30 minutes on google and pubmed. Not hating on them by any means (I will probably become one myself), its just simply the nature of the job as a PCP that the scope of practice is so broad there is no possible way they can have detailed knowledge of every disease and injury out there.

Back in undergrad I had a bit of seborrheic dermatitis on my face I wanted to get taken care of. Did about 30 minutes of researching on google to arrive at a definitive self-diagnosis (it was an extremely classical presentation of seborrheic dermatitis) and I knew exactly what the most effective and up-to-date treatments were for it. I knew the detailed presentation, I knew the pathophysiology. Definitely not saying that I was anything special for knowing any of this, just pointing out that it is easily possible to learn a hell of a lot about one specific disease in a relatively short period of time if you are an intelligent and scientifically minded person.

I went to the FM knowing exactly what I was looking for, and yes I tried to steer the doctors clinical decision... as I should. Luckily the doc did not respond as condescendingly as you would have. I get there and she wasn't even sure if it was dermatitis, psoriasis, rosacea or something else. I explained to her why I thought it was seborrheic dermatitis and luckily she did not become smug and defensive, but humbly agreed that I was probably right and prescribed the appropriate medication. To think that its not possible for an intelligent and educated patient to learn more detailed information about a specific disease than an average FM would know (especially the more obscure / uncommon pathologies) after 30 minutes of effective internet researching is a little bit out of touch with reality in the age of google, pubmed and uptodate. I know its tough to swallow that after a decade of medical education an intelligent patient can learn more about some diseases in 30 minutes of googling than I will know about the disease as an attending. It's the reality of the internet age though.
Click to expand...
you should have went to dermviser.



btw people who doubt about the need of clinicians really never worked in that environment.
 
Beargryllz said:
I've been an insufferable, pretentious **** for as long as I can remember. Even in kindergarten the other boys would try to beat me up because they were jealous.
Click to expand...

Other boys are jealous of me, better drink my own piss
 
sidefx said:
I completely agree that a lot of laypersons out there could spend all day on the internet researching their symptoms and still not be able to tell their ass from their elbow. However, and I'm sure this will be taken offensively by any PCPs who read this, if you're an intelligent person with a university background in the sciences and are familiar with journals and effective researching, its not hard to learn more about a lot of pathologies than an FM knows, after spending about 20-30 minutes on google and pubmed. Not hating on them by any means (I will probably become one myself), its just simply the nature of the job as a PCP that the scope of practice is so broad there is no possible way they can have detailed knowledge of every disease and injury out there.

Back in undergrad I had a bit of seborrheic dermatitis on my face I wanted to get taken care of. Did about 30 minutes of researching on google to arrive at a definitive self-diagnosis (it was an extremely classical presentation of seborrheic dermatitis) and I knew exactly what the most effective and up-to-date treatments were for it. I knew the detailed presentation, I knew the pathophysiology. Definitely not saying that I was anything special for knowing any of this, just pointing out that it is easily possible to learn a hell of a lot about one specific disease in a relatively short period of time if you are an intelligent and scientifically minded person.

I went to the FM knowing exactly what I was looking for, and yes I tried to steer the doctors clinical decision... as I should. Luckily the doc did not respond as condescendingly as you would have. I get there and she wasn't even sure if it was dermatitis, psoriasis, rosacea or something else. I explained to her why I thought it was seborrheic dermatitis and luckily she did not become smug and defensive, but humbly agreed that I was probably right and prescribed the appropriate medication. To think that its not possible for an intelligent and educated patient to learn more detailed information about a specific disease than an average FM would know (especially the more obscure / uncommon pathologies) after 30 minutes of effective internet researching is a little bit out of touch with reality in the age of google, pubmed and uptodate. I know its tough to swallow that after a decade of medical education an intelligent patient can learn more about some diseases in 30 minutes of googling than I will know about the disease as an attending. It's the reality of the internet age though.
Click to expand...

I'm glad your story worked out to your satisfaction, but I will respectfully disagree about the value of self-diagnosis.

Even with my extremely limited experience, I've already had people angry that I doubt they had acute HIV (Virgin, non-drug user, no exposure with cold symptoms), diabetes (non-fasting blood glucose <100 as measured by this lady at home, she kept a log), and strep throat (rapid test negative, upper respiratory symptoms only). Maybe I was a d*** about it and just didn't realize, but I'm pretty sure at least two of them were just crazy.

Even in those rare individuals who can objectively analyze their situation, relatively few of them have enough of a bio. background to understand all the relevant literature. Fewer still have any clinical understanding of normal/abnormal appearances.

If you have a rare but easily-identified condition, with few other things in the d dx, you might be able to learn more about it. I'd be willing to bet that little of what you learn would be especially clinically relevant.

If someone comes to me with a concern about a specific condition, I'd definitely give it consideration if I had time (if for no other reason than to put them at ease and let them know I heard what they said), but I'm going to take it with a big grain of salt.
 
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dadaddadaBATMAN said:
I'm glad your story worked out to your satisfaction, but I will respectfully disagree about the value of self-diagnosis.

Even with my extremely limited experience, I've already had people angry that I doubt they had acute HIV (Virgin, non-drug user, no exposure with cold symptoms), diabetes (non-fasting blood glucose <100 as measured by this lady at home, she kept a log), and strep throat (rapid test negative, upper respiratory symptoms only). Maybe I was a d*** about it and just didn't realize, but I'm pretty sure at least two of them were just crazy.

Even in those rare individuals who can objectively analyze their situation, relatively few of them have enough of a bio. background to understand all the relevant literature. Fewer still have any clinical understanding of normal/abnormal appearances.

If you have a rare but easily-identified condition, with few other things in the d dx, you might be able to learn more about it. I'd be willing to bet that little of what you learn would be especially clinically relevant.

If someone comes to me with a concern about a specific condition, I'd definitely give it consideration if I had time (if for no other reason than to put them at ease and let them know I heard what they said), but I'm going to take it with a big grain of salt.
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Definitely agree with most of this too. Your average person wont have a clue what is going on in most cases. And certainly it is good practice to assume a patient doesn't know what they're talking about until proven otherwise. I think especially with more serious conditions like HIV and diabetes that you mentioned we will also run into people who are simply in denial because they don't want to accept the implications of the diagnosis for their lifestyle and future, especially when they are not experiencing any symptoms yet and feel fine. Diseases like diabetes are also very complex and multifactorial and I would agree someone is not going to be able to fully understand or appreciate the complexity of it after an hour or two of googling. There are some conditions however, that someone intelligent and educated can learn about quite quickly. My only point was to state that some patients are quite intelligent and capable of researching their problems very effectively. The example was given of an engineer being scoffed at for possibly thinking he could learn anything about a medical condition by researching it on the internet, and I feel this would actually be an example of the type of person who would likely be able to educate themselves quite effectively after a bit of researching and I wouldn't be so quick to scoff off their "smug attempt" to influence clinical decision making without at least hearing them out on it, as it is quite possible they have become more knowledgeable on that specific disease than the PCP.
 
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sidefx said:
Definitely agree with most of this too. Your average person wont have a clue what is going on in most cases. And certainly I it is good practice to assume a patient doesn't know what they're talking about until proven otherwise. I think especially with more serious conditions like HIV and diabetes that you mentioned we will also run into people who are simply in denial because they don't want to accept the implications of the diagnosis for their lifestyle and future, especially when they are not experiencing any symptoms yet and feel fine. Diseases like diabetes are also very complex and multifactorial and I would agree someone is not going to be able to fully understand or appreciate the complexity of it after an hour or two of googling. There are some conditions however, that someone intelligent and educated can learn about quite quickly. My only point was to state that some patients are quite intelligent and capable of researching their problems very effectively. The example was given of an engineer being scoffed at for possibly thinking he could learn anything about a medical condition by researching it on the internet, and I feel this would actually be an example of the type of person who would likely be able to educate themselves quite effectively after a bit of researching and I wouldn't be so quick to scoff off their "smug attempt" to influence clinical decision making without at least hearing them out on it, as it is quite possible they have become more knowledgeable on that specific disease than the PCP.
Click to expand...

I think we're mostly in agreement. If they find the right diagnosis, I agree that it is possible for someone to quickly learn the minutiae of a disease process (that's pretty much what we do 1st two years in my experience). Even in this situation, I think it would be a sort of deceptive knowledge though: when I was in the middle of a virology course in undergrad., I probably knew way more about HIV's gag protein, envelope protein splicing,etc. than most MDs. That doesn't mean I knew a damn thing of use, or that I understood which nasty things would happen next, etc.

Micro. is a poor example, because much of our education in it stems from brief memorization of pertinent information, but the more heavily a disease is based in physio (in my pre-clinical armchair opinion) the more complex it gets conceptually.

I completely agree that scoffing at a person is a poor choice: if nothing else, you look like an ass. If they also happen to have gotten the diagnosis right, you look incompetent and make the entire profession look bad. Not really anything to gain from it.

But given only 5-10 minutes to hear them out, I would rather spend time on the actual h and p than listening to what Web MD and Dr. Google have to say.

This doesn't mean you should treat people like dirt though.
 
KnuxNole said:
I wish life was a Disney movie...we can break out in song at random bursts, have cutesy talking animals as sidekicks, and Sora, Donald and Goofy can pay a visit!
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i swear i encounter disney people like you, everyday, like colleagues that are fascinated by disney movies, i just never really got into disney (maybe because i didnt watch them as a young lad) Well i did watch a few, i just didnt like them, if you think about it all disney movies are pretty sad, every single one of them.
 
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