Are mid-level providers allowed to be 'attendings' for MS3/MS4?

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My point was that in other fields where the educational difference is only marginal, this would still be considered completely unacceptable, yet (future) docs are supposed to embrace it because we all need to be team players.

And you're answer is not exclusive to docs. Everybody in every field is like that. I personally know a nurse who went NP just to "not get my hands dirty" anymore.

Students in all fields have no leverage; they would put up with it just like we do. Also medical schools select for weak-minded, pliable conformist sheep (see the absurd "holistic" admissions process) who will reflexively go along with whatever some jackoff baby boomer administrator tells them.

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This thread has gone a completely different direction.

We need infusion of kittens - STAT.
 

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My point was that in other fields where the educational difference is only marginal, this would still be considered completely unacceptable, yet (future) docs are supposed to embrace it because we all need to be team players.

And you're answer is not exclusive to docs. Everybody in every field is like that. I personally know a nurse who went NP just to "not get my hands dirty" anymore.


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Because we live in a society now where success is widely criticised and demonized. Doctors have been a symbol of success for a long time and we've now developed some sort of collective guilt as a result. That leads us to let others walk all over us.
 
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Students in all fields have no leverage; they would put up with it just like we do. Also medical schools select for weak-minded, pliable conformist sheep (see the absurd "holistic" admissions process) who will reflexively go along with whatever some jackoff baby boomer administrator tells them.

Ah. I see the disconnect here and it is largely my fault.

I mean that in say other healthcare fields, not only would students pitch a fit, but administration would not allow it.

I would not have been allowed to learn from unlicensed technologists who just had on the job training.

RN students would not be learning from seasoned LPNs despite the differences esteem the two being almost nonexistent.

Respiratory therapy students wouldn't be rotating at a pulmonologist's office to learn breathing treatments and PFT's from a medical assistant.

There could be valuable learning in all of those experiences. However, it just wouldn't happen. The folks running these programs know that the education they're providing is unique to that specific field and that what they're training people to do can't be done better by any other field.

Unless you become a doctor, the person who's supposed to have the most depth and breadth of knowledge. Then you take whatever's given to you because heaven forbid you demand a quality education from your $200k degree.


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Ah. I see the disconnect here and it is largely my fault.

I mean that in say other healthcare fields, not only would students pitch a fit, but administration would not allow it.

I would not have been allowed to learn from unlicensed technologists who just had on the job training.

RN students would not be learning from seasoned LPNs despite the differences esteem the two being almost nonexistent.

Respiratory therapy students wouldn't be rotating at a pulmonologist's office to learn breathing treatments and PFT's from a medical assistant.

There could be valuable learning in all of those experiences. However, it just wouldn't happen. The folks running these programs know that the education they're providing is unique to that specific field and that what they're training people to do can't be done better by any other field.

Unless you become a doctor, the person who's supposed to have the most depth and breadth of knowledge. Then you take whatever's given to you because heaven forbid you demand a quality education from your $200k degree.


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Yep, that's how absurd our profession has become, and most of us just bend over and take it.
 
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I mean that in say other healthcare fields, not only would students pitch a fit, but administration would not allow it.

Probably true, but those administrators are all nurses (or RTs, or whatever) who probably have chips on their shoulders regarding their status. The average academic physician has no hang ups about midlevels because they only really came into being when he was already established and have done nothing but generate income for him. Things like integrity and standards are meaningless to him, so the choice to spend an awkward afternoon with a medical student versus dumping him off with the NP is no choice at all. Med students put up with it because a) we're cowards and b) we have no choice, which are kind of the same thing when you think about it.
 
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Probably true, but those administrators are all nurses (or RTs, or whatever) who probably have chips on their shoulders regarding their status. The average academic physician has no hang ups about midlevels because they only really came into being when he was already established and have done nothing but generate income for him. Things like integrity and standards are meaningless to him, so the choice to spend an awkward afternoon with a medical student versus dumping him off with the NP is no choice at all. Med students put up with it because a) we're cowards and b) we have no choice, which are kind of the same thing when you think about it.
Of course they have no hangups, the average physician has been profiting off of midlevels ever since they introduced them. It's only future generations that will have to deal with the aftereffects of that. I don't blame the midlevels for taking as much as they can get (I would do the same were I in their shoes), I blame the physicians - the previous generation who sold us out and the young ones who are doing nothing about it.
 
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Maybe you didn't mean this sentence so generally, but, if you did, it's just dogma.

Best lecture I ever got on gas exchange was from a perfusionist. Best learning experience for managing a normal vaginal delivery was from a midwife. Best practical teaching on assessing air flow limitation was from a PhD respiratory specialist--not a physician. By contrast, I've received some very dumb "wisdom" from more than a few attendings. And not every attending is inclined to teach either.

Part of becoming a doctor is learning how to evaluate sources of knowledge. And non-doctors can be great sources of knowledge.

But still, I don't think it's appropriate for non-physicians to be proctoring clinical encounters (which is different from teaching). "Proctor" means to assess, and your clinical knowledge should be assessed with respect to the knowledge, competency, and perspective of a physician. Who more appropriate to do that than an actual physician?

But this is a very specific question about a very crappy day. Just give the appropriate feedback and move on. What else are you going to do? Pick your battles...

In the classroom setting, sure.

In the clinical setting, it should always be an MD/DO. The way I see it, you as a student are not only learning how to do well in a particular specialty but also what the lifestyle is like. Can't learn about a physicians experience through a mid-level. At best, it's a second hand account.
 
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In the classroom setting, sure.

In the clinical setting, it should always be an MD/DO. The way I see it, you as a student are not only learning how to do well in a particular specialty but also what the lifestyle is like. Can't learn about a physicians experience through a mid-level. At best, it's a second hand account.

I mean this with complete respect and goodwill, but you're Class of 2020. Just wait till 2020 or even 2019. You might feel very differently...

Maybe you'll feel the sting of an uncaring or frankly incompetent attending.
Maybe you'll feel the joy of delivering a baby with the help of a patient midwife.
Maybe you'll work with NPs/PAs and realise that they're absolutely not a threat to you, that your years of education really did mean something more than a diploma.
Maybe you'll see how entitlement and insecurity often go together, in doctors and non-doctors.

Maybe none of the above. I don't know. I'm just hoping that you approach your clinical years with an open and skeptical mind, instead of with dogma like "it should always be." Dogma often dies in the face of experience.
 
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I think it is important to do a couple shifts with midlevels to appreciate their scope of practice so you know the types of things they are able to do/not able to do. I have even worked with nurses to learn all the stuff that they do and it was very helpful. But to spend a huge amount of time with them by default is ****ty.



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I mean this with complete respect and goodwill, but you're Class of 2020. Just wait till 2020 or even 2019. You might feel very differently...

This has to be the lamest "voice of experience" post in SDN history. Good grief.
 
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Fixed that for you. And the answer is that doctors are lazy and greedy and will gladly foist all of their work onto somebody else as long as they can still get paid for it.

This has to be the lamest "voice of experience" post in SDN history. Good grief.

Great. I offer it for what it is (and it does include experience in healthcare consulting), but I'm still waiting to hear a coherent counter-argument against anything I've written. It just seems like the same group of folks echoing each other with hyperbole and snark. This is why nobody in American healthcare takes this movement seriously. If you want to push back against advanced practitioners, look at how it's been done in Australia and the UK. Zero entitlement. Zero whinging. Just political skill and an understanding of how things work. But rant away on SDN.
 
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Great. I offer it for what it is (and it does include experience in healthcare consulting), but I'm still waiting to hear a coherent counter-argument for anything I've written. It just seems like the same group of folks echoing each other with hyperbole and snark. This is why nobody in American healthcare takes this movement seriously. If you want to push back against advanced practitioners, look at how it's been done in Australia and the UK. Zero entitlement. Zero whinging. Just political skill and an understanding of how things work. But rant away on SDN.

Can't argue with you there. I'm unfamiliar with this issue outside of the US and Google didn't turn up anything substantive. Mind elaborating?


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Can't argue with you there. I'm unfamiliar with this issue outside of the US and Google didn't turn up anything substantive. Mind elaborating?


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Specialty colleges clamped down hard on training advanced midlevels. Quietly negotiated against so-called "equal pay for equal work." Fervently supported litigation against midlevel malpractice. Insisted midlevels carry their own malpractice (and leveraged their relationship with the major indemnity firms to only offer substandard coverage). I could go on. Machiavellian? Yes. Fair? No. Either way, the game is played way the hell above any of us.

Protesting midlevels educating medical students? Whinging about declining reimbursement? Debt? Titles? Ridiculous on so many levels. Nobody that matters cares.

That's why these threads are so aggravating. Nobody changes their mind, few have actually worked in high-level administration or politics, and most come across as insecure, hyperbolic, and entitled doctors who are also giving bad advice to medical students. Keep your politics out of your clinical rotations FFS. Again, nobody cares. (Unless you make enough commotion to draw negative attention to yourself.)

Look, OP shouldn't be evaluated by a midlevel. We all agree. Just tell the administration you can't get your log book signed off and let them handle it. Yeah your school sucks. What're you going to do? Pick your battles... but especially pick the battles you can win.
 
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I mean this with complete respect and goodwill, but you're Class of 2020. Just wait till 2020 or even 2019. You might feel very differently...

Maybe you'll feel the sting of an uncaring or frankly incompetent attending.
Maybe you'll feel the joy of delivering a baby with the help of a patient midwife.
Maybe you'll work with NPs/PAs and realise that they're absolutely not a threat to you, that your years of education really did mean something more than a diploma.
Maybe you'll see how entitlement and insecurity often go together, in doctors and non-doctors.

Maybe none of the above. I don't know. I'm just hoping that you approach your clinical years with an open and skeptical mind, instead of with dogma like "it should always be." Dogma often dies in the face of experience.
You'd make a really good med school administrator, or liberal politician.
 
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Great. I offer it for what it is (and it does include experience in healthcare consulting), but I'm still waiting to hear a coherent counter-argument against anything I've written. It just seems like the same group of folks echoing each other with hyperbole and snark. This is why nobody in American healthcare takes this movement seriously. If you want to push back against advanced practitioners, look at how it's been done in Australia and the UK. Zero entitlement. Zero whinging. Just political skill and an understanding of how things work. But rant away on SDN.
You keep talking about other countries like the UK and Australia. You realize their healthcare systems are very different from the US, right? Apples and oranges, my friend.
 
Because we live in a society now where success is widely criticised and demonized. Doctors have been a symbol of success for a long time and we've now developed some sort of collective guilt as a result. That leads us to let others walk all over us.

Yep, that's how absurd our profession has become, and most of us just bend over and take it.

I blame the physicians - the previous generation who sold us out and the young ones who are doing nothing about it.

You keep talking about other countries like the UK and Australia. You realize their healthcare systems are very different from the US, right? Apples and oranges, my friend.

My friend (who insults me and offers opinions without reason or evidence), I've worked in all three--top and bottom of the healthcare system for two + stuff for WHO. It's getting very, very hard to take you seriously.
 
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My friend (who insults me and offers frankly nonsensical opinions), I've worked in all three--top and bottom of the healthcare system for two + stuff for WHO. It's getting very, very hard to take you seriously.
I'm sorry, I didn't expect that someone who's worked at the top of multiple healthcare systems and the WHO would be spending time arguing with medical students on a forum.
 
I'm sorry, I didn't expect that someone who's worked at the top of multiple healthcare systems and the WHO would be spending time arguing with medical students on a forum.

Premeds read this. Preclinicals read this. Residents read this. Attendings read this. Programme directors read this. Professors read this. All of them post here. It's a professional forum. You don't know anything about me, and I could have very well made everything up. Just like you might not be a resident (... who is also spending time arguing with a medical student on a forum?). Whatever. That's not the point. Only the reasons matters. Only the evidence matters.

But okay. I get it. Fight the good fight and best of luck.

To the OP, I'm really sorry this thread got derailed.
 
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I mean this with complete respect and goodwill, but you're Class of 2020. Just wait till 2020 or even 2019. You might feel very differently...

Maybe you'll feel the sting of an uncaring or frankly incompetent attending.
Maybe you'll feel the joy of delivering a baby with the help of a patient midwife.
Maybe you'll work with NPs/PAs and realise that they're absolutely not a threat to you, that your years of education really did mean something more than a diploma.
Maybe you'll see how entitlement and insecurity often go together, in doctors and non-doctors.

Maybe none of the above. I don't know. I'm just hoping that you approach your clinical years with an open and skeptical mind, instead of with dogma like "it should always be." Dogma often dies in the face of experience.

I understand the sentiment. However, anyone can be jaded at any level of the medical profession for any number of reasons. Being jaded is not solely a quality of physicians.

In the very least, I'd prefer my clinical preceptor to be a physician. If he wants to pimp me out to the nurse or mid-level then fine. I'm not opposed to learning things from these professionals, I'm opposed to them being responsible for the entirety of a rotation.

In all my years working in a private practice and the hospital, I have never seen a med student assigned to a mid-level.
 
I understand the sentiment. However, anyone can be jaded at any level of the medical profession for any number of reasons. Being jaded is not solely a quality of physicians.

In the very least, I'd prefer my clinical preceptor to be a physician. If he wants to pimp me out to the nurse or mid-level then fine. I'm not opposed to learning things from these professionals, I'm opposed to them being responsible for the entirety of a rotation.

In all my years working in a private practice and the hospital, I have never seen a med student assigned to a mid-level.

I completely agree.
 
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compensation for family medicine specialists in the US is rising, not falling

Source? From what I've seen, its only rising due to inflation. I don't see any real rise in salary.
 
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No. I'm taking my ball and going home.

Nice. You hem and haw about providing evidence for claims, then the second someone asks you the same you pack up your balls and leave.

Keep it classy.
 
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Source? From what I've seen, its only rising due to inflation. I don't see any real rise in salary.

Nice. You hem and haw about providing evidence for claims, then the second someone asks you the same you pack up your balls and leave.

Keep it classy.

I'm only posting this for the benefit of preclinicals interested in family medicine but who feel discouraged by people who might not know what they're talking about.

Realistically, @username456789 and company, I'm not going to change your mind, I'm not interested in changing your mind, and you've repeatedly turned this into a personally derogatory discussion, when it didn't need to be. I could cite my own experiences directly working on physician compensation, as I've done in the past and provided advice to several attendings via PM, but obviously that's not going to get me very far. So, @Yadster101:

1. Consider, from first principles, that following reasons that may explain why primary care compensation has increased. For example, the Affordable Care Act, as per the RAND Corporation, has expanded insurance coverage to over 17 million people who previously didn't qualify for insurance. These people are strongly incentivised through the ACA to receive care through primary care specialists, with much higher out-of-pocket costs for ED visits, free annual physicals, and free access to USPTF Grade A or B recommended screenings. Kaiser Permanente, a very large ACO, has publically stated that they could hire every single medical school graduate in California as primary care specialists and still not meet demand for their services. That's one of the reasons why they're starting their own medical school and several new residencies. That's also why everybody is resorting to midlevels to outsource easily protocolised care, which most physicians aren't interested in providing anyways. And then there's the reality of an aging population with multiple medical-comorbidities that make managing these patients very difficult. Demand, as always, drives compensation.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. Fine, whatever.

2. Read the anecdotes of your seniors and colleagues here on SDN. These are folks who are reporting a significant rise in compensation from their personal experience as FM attendings. Here is one example, and there are more if you search SDN or even reach out to attendings via PM: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/family-medicine-salaries-continue-to-climb.1206496/. @Blue Dog is a great, fair-minded attending to follow on the FM subforum.

Well that's just anec-data. Sure.

3. Look at the large amount of survey data that says compensation in family medicine is rising much faster than inflation. For example, in 2014, average compensation for primary care specialists grew about 10% between 2014 and 2015, which was the fifth highest rate of increase for any specialty. The CPI for that year was around 1-2%, so compensation grew at about 10 x inflation. This is according to the Medscape Compensation Survey. You'll say, that's just self-reported nonsense. But it's in concordance with more rigorous surveys of physician compensation like the MGMA's Physician Compensation and Productivity Survey Report, which you can get through your medical school. These are proprietary data that many practices use as an industry benchmark. In its latest report for 2016, they write that "primary care physicians gained a median 3.6 percent in compensation from the previous year; by comparison, the median compensation for specialists rose 2.4." Merritt Hawkins provides similar data, and just read their survey of Final Year Family Medicine Residents, which notes that about half of FM residents are contacted over 100 times by recruiters with job offers in their final year in residency. Finally, according to Medscape, family medicine ranks sixth among specialties in employing the highest percentage of female physicians, at 35 percent, but male physicians earn, on average, $55,500 more than female physicians--so that skews the data. (There's also geographic variation, which is a whole other can of worms.)

On a broader note, why is reporting physician compensation so damn difficult? Because doctors don't get salaried: they get a mix of salary, remuneration, bonuses and other benefits. For example, in large ACOs, it's roughly 50:45:5 in terms of salary, productivity (remuneration), and other things. But this ratio varies dramatically outside the ACOs, in more traditionally remunerative private practices, medical groups, Federally Qualified Health Centers, etc. All of these can vary further in terms of Medicare and private insurance payer mix. And then you get into cash only, DPC, concierge models, etc. with make up to about 10% of all FM practices.

How does remuneration work? Ahhh... the RVU. Often misunderstood by residents and even some attendings. I don't want to explain it here. It's complicated, but I've linked some helpful resources below. Why am I mentioning RVU? Because there's increasing political pressure to raise RVUs associated with non-procedural specialities, like FM. (As an aside, many FM specialists don't code properly, and they can easily increase their remuneration by correctly documenting for 99214s, for example). This topic has been eloquently discussed in the Psychiatry subforum.

Look, it's not all puppies and sunshine. Family Medicine is still one of the lowest compensated specialities with tremendous burnout and lower job satisfaction. (Part of that might have to with its status as the residency of last resort for some medical students, who probably weren't keen on family medicine in the first place, but that's my controversial opinion.)

But the speciality offers a lot of advantageous. It's tremendously flexible; you can work all around the world with reciprocal licensing agreements in Canada, Australia, New Zealand; and, most definitely, compensation is rising.

Fear of midlevels is largely a bogeyman. It certainly hasn't resulted in a net negative impact on compensation in family medicine. And the game is played way the hell above our heads anyways. You're not going to get far arguing about it on SDN or mentioning it to your clerkship director, especially when if it means insulting or alienating people.

Preclinicals, I wish you the best of luck. Like I said before, I think the most important skill to develop is the ability to critically evaluate knowledge. You don't know me, and you don't know my qualifications. All you know is the data I've presented. Make up your own minds, and don't rule out a specialty (or needlessly denigrate your colleagues or other health professionals) based on the advice of your sometimes uninformed seniors.

http://medgroup.ucsf.edu/sites/medgroup.ucsf.edu/files/the_basics_of_rvus_and_rbrvs_0.pdf
https://www.sgim.org/File Library/SGIM/Communities/Advocacy/Advocacy 101/Do-RVUs-Undervalue-Primary-Care---Primer-on-the-RUC-3-14-2014.pdf
 
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I'm only posting this for the benefit of preclinicals interested in family medicine but who feel discouraged by people who might not know what they're talking about.

Realistically, @username456789 and company, I'm not going to change your mind, I'm not interested in changing your mind, and you've repeatedly turned this into a personally derogatory discussion, when it didn't need to be. I could cite my own experiences directly working on physician compensation, as I've done in the past and provided advice to several attendings via PM, but obviously that's not going to get me very far. So, @Yadster101:

1. Consider, from first principles, that following reasons that may explain why primary care compensation has increased. For example, the Affordable Care Act, as per the RAND Corporation, has expanded insurance coverage to over 17 million people who previously didn't qualify for insurance. These people are strongly incentivised through the ACA to receive care through primary care specialists, with much higher out-of-pocket costs for ED visits, free annual physicals, and free access to USPTF Grade A or B recommended screenings. Kaiser Permanente, a very large ACO, has publically stated that they could hire every single medical school graduate in California as primary care specialists and still not meet demand for their services. That's one of the reasons why they're starting their own medical school and several new residencies. That's also why everybody is resorting to midlevels to outsource easily protocolised care, which most physicians aren't interested in providing anyways. And then there's the reality of an aging population with multiple medical-comorbidities that make managing these patients very difficult. Demand, as always, drives compensation.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. Fine, whatever.

2. Read the anecdotes of your seniors and colleagues here on SDN. These are folks who are reporting a significant rise in compensation from their personal experience as FM attendings. Here is one example, and there are more if you search SDN or even reach out to attendings via PM: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/family-medicine-salaries-continue-to-climb.1206496/. @Blue Dog is a great, fair-minded attending to follow on the FM subforum.

Well that's just anec-data. Sure.

3. Look at the large amount of survey data that says compensation in family medicine is rising much faster than inflation. For example, in 2014, average compensation for primary care specialists grew about 10% between 2014 and 2015, which was the fifth highest rate of increase for any specialty. The CPI for that year was around 1-2%, so compensation grew at about 10 x inflation. This is according to the Medscape Compensation Survey. You'll say, that's just self-reported nonsense. But it's in concordance with more rigorous surveys of physician compensation like the MGMA's Physician Compensation and Productivity Survey Report, which you can get through your medical school. These are proprietary data that many practices use as an industry benchmark. In its latest report for 2016, they write that "primary care physicians gained a median 3.6 percent in compensation from the previous year; by comparison, the median compensation for specialists rose 2.4." Merritt Hawkins provides similar data, and just read their survey of Final Year Family Medicine Residents, which notes that about half of FM residents are contacted over 100 times by recruiters with job offers in their final year in residency. Finally, according to Medscape, family medicine ranks sixth among specialties in employing the highest percentage of female physicians, at 35 percent, but male physicians earn, on average, $55,500 more than female physicians--so that skews the data. (There's also geographic variation, which is a whole other can of worms.)

On a broader note, why is reporting physician compensation so damn difficult? Because doctors don't get salaried: they get a mix of salary, remuneration, bonuses and other benefits. For example, in large ACOs, it's roughly 50:45:5 in terms of salary, productivity (remuneration), and other things. But this ratio varies dramatically outside the ACOs, in more traditionally remunerative private practices, medical groups, Federally Qualified Health Centers, etc. All of these can vary further in terms of Medicare and private insurance payer mix. And then you get into cash only, DPC, concierge models, etc. with make up to about 10% of all FM practices.

How does remuneration work? Ahhh... the RVU. Often misunderstood by residents and even some attendings. I don't want to explain it here. It's complicated, but I've linked some helpful resources below. Why am I mentioning RVU? Because there's increasing political pressure to raise RVUs associated with non-procedural specialities, like FM. (As an aside, many FM specialists don't code properly, and they can easily increase their remuneration by correctly documenting for 99214s, for example). This topic has been eloquently discussed in the Psychiatry subforum.

Look, it's not all puppies and sunshine. Family Medicine is still one of the lowest compensated specialities with tremendous burnout and lower job satisfaction. (Part of that might have to with its status as the residency of last resort for some medical students, who probably weren't keen on family medicine in the first place, but that's my controversial opinion.)

But the speciality offers a lot of advantageous. It's tremendously flexible; you can work all around the world with reciprocal licensing agreements in Canada, Australia, New Zealand; and, most definitely, compensation is rising.

Fear of midlevels is largely a bogeyman. It certainly hasn't resulted in a net negative impact on compensation in family medicine. And the game is played way the hell above our heads anyways. You're not going to get far arguing about it on SDN or mentioning it to your clerkship director, especially when if it means insulting or alienating people.

Preclinicals, I wish you the best of luck. Like I said before, I think the most important skill to develop is the ability to critically evaluate knowledge. You don't know me, and you don't know my qualifications. All you know is the data I've presented. Make up your own minds, and don't rule out a specialty (or needlessly denigrate your colleagues or other health professionals) based on the advice of your sometimes uninformed seniors.

http://medgroup.ucsf.edu/sites/medgroup.ucsf.edu/files/the_basics_of_rvus_and_rbrvs_0.pdf
https://www.sgim.org/File Library/SGIM/Communities/Advocacy/Advocacy 101/Do-RVUs-Undervalue-Primary-Care---Primer-on-the-RUC-3-14-2014.pdf

What about this recent Oregon law which demands that PAs/NPs get paid the same for the same service. From my understanding, they already use many of the same codes as PCPs and now they'll be paid the same for it. What if other states follow suit?

http://www.oregonrn.org/?page=670
 
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What about this recent Oregon law which demands that PAs/NPs get paid the same for the same service. From my understanding, they already use many of the same codes as PCPs and now they'll be paid the same for it. What if other states follow suit?

http://www.oregonrn.org/?page=670
The battle has been loss. If you want to be a PCP or an anesthesia 'provider' (gosh! I hate that word), there are easier ways to do that.
 
What about this recent Oregon law which demands that PAs/NPs get paid the same for the same service. From my understanding, they already use many of the same codes as PCPs and now they'll be paid the same for it. What if other states follow suit?

http://www.oregonrn.org/?page=670
If they cost as much why not go w a physician though? Idg how they save money.
 
What about this recent Oregon law which demands that PAs/NPs get paid the same for the same service. From my understanding, they already use many of the same codes as PCPs and now they'll be paid the same for it. What if other states follow suit?

http://www.oregonrn.org/?page=670

If that happened then hospitals and clinics would likely hire fewer midlevel providers and the physician job market will open wide up. Why pay for second best when you have the gold standard for the same price? Physicians are more efficient, know much more and have a better work ethic. There would be other ways to cut provider pay though (as we are already seeing from these metrics and meaningful use initiatives) because money doesn't come from nowhere and insurance is really expensive. But no one can predict the future.
 
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If that happened then hospitals and clinics would likely hire fewer midlevel providers and the physician job market will open wide up....

But no one can predict the future.

If this happened? It's already happened as per the link I posted. And there are still a great number of job postings for midlevels in Oregon.
 
If this happened? It's already happened as per the link I posted. And there are still a great number of job postings for midlevels in Oregon.

In one of the most liberal states in the country. Unless those regulations happen on a federal level, there will be plenty of states that won't ever follow suit. Even if it did pass federally, certain states would still find loopholes around paying mid-levels as much as physicians.
 
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In one of the most liberal states in the country. Unless those regulations happen on a federal level, there will be plenty of states that won't ever follow suit. Even if it did pass federally, certain states would still find loopholes around paying mid-levels as much as physicians.

You guys are overlooking a possible solution:

Pay the physicians less.
 
I'm only posting this for the benefit of preclinicals interested in family medicine but who feel discouraged by people who might not know what they're talking about.

Realistically, @username456789 and company, I'm not going to change your mind, I'm not interested in changing your mind, and you've repeatedly turned this into a personally derogatory discussion, when it didn't need to be. I could cite my own experiences directly working on physician compensation, as I've done in the past and provided advice to several attendings via PM, but obviously that's not going to get me very far. So, @Yadster101:

1. Consider, from first principles, that following reasons that may explain why primary care compensation has increased. For example, the Affordable Care Act, as per the RAND Corporation, has expanded insurance coverage to over 17 million people who previously didn't qualify for insurance. These people are strongly incentivised through the ACA to receive care through primary care specialists, with much higher out-of-pocket costs for ED visits, free annual physicals, and free access to USPTF Grade A or B recommended screenings. Kaiser Permanente, a very large ACO, has publically stated that they could hire every single medical school graduate in California as primary care specialists and still not meet demand for their services. That's one of the reasons why they're starting their own medical school and several new residencies. That's also why everybody is resorting to midlevels to outsource easily protocolised care, which most physicians aren't interested in providing anyways. And then there's the reality of an aging population with multiple medical-comorbidities that make managing these patients very difficult. Demand, as always, drives compensation.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. Fine, whatever.

2. Read the anecdotes of your seniors and colleagues here on SDN. These are folks who are reporting a significant rise in compensation from their personal experience as FM attendings. Here is one example, and there are more if you search SDN or even reach out to attendings via PM: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/family-medicine-salaries-continue-to-climb.1206496/. @Blue Dog is a great, fair-minded attending to follow on the FM subforum.

Well that's just anec-data. Sure.

3. Look at the large amount of survey data that says compensation in family medicine is rising much faster than inflation. For example, in 2014, average compensation for primary care specialists grew about 10% between 2014 and 2015, which was the fifth highest rate of increase for any specialty. The CPI for that year was around 1-2%, so compensation grew at about 10 x inflation. This is according to the Medscape Compensation Survey. You'll say, that's just self-reported nonsense. But it's in concordance with more rigorous surveys of physician compensation like the MGMA's Physician Compensation and Productivity Survey Report, which you can get through your medical school. These are proprietary data that many practices use as an industry benchmark. In its latest report for 2016, they write that "primary care physicians gained a median 3.6 percent in compensation from the previous year; by comparison, the median compensation for specialists rose 2.4." Merritt Hawkins provides similar data, and just read their survey of Final Year Family Medicine Residents, which notes that about half of FM residents are contacted over 100 times by recruiters with job offers in their final year in residency. Finally, according to Medscape, family medicine ranks sixth among specialties in employing the highest percentage of female physicians, at 35 percent, but male physicians earn, on average, $55,500 more than female physicians--so that skews the data. (There's also geographic variation, which is a whole other can of worms.)

On a broader note, why is reporting physician compensation so damn difficult? Because doctors don't get salaried: they get a mix of salary, remuneration, bonuses and other benefits. For example, in large ACOs, it's roughly 50:45:5 in terms of salary, productivity (remuneration), and other things. But this ratio varies dramatically outside the ACOs, in more traditionally remunerative private practices, medical groups, Federally Qualified Health Centers, etc. All of these can vary further in terms of Medicare and private insurance payer mix. And then you get into cash only, DPC, concierge models, etc. with make up to about 10% of all FM practices.

How does remuneration work? Ahhh... the RVU. Often misunderstood by residents and even some attendings. I don't want to explain it here. It's complicated, but I've linked some helpful resources below. Why am I mentioning RVU? Because there's increasing political pressure to raise RVUs associated with non-procedural specialities, like FM. (As an aside, many FM specialists don't code properly, and they can easily increase their remuneration by correctly documenting for 99214s, for example). This topic has been eloquently discussed in the Psychiatry subforum.

Look, it's not all puppies and sunshine. Family Medicine is still one of the lowest compensated specialities with tremendous burnout and lower job satisfaction. (Part of that might have to with its status as the residency of last resort for some medical students, who probably weren't keen on family medicine in the first place, but that's my controversial opinion.)

But the speciality offers a lot of advantageous. It's tremendously flexible; you can work all around the world with reciprocal licensing agreements in Canada, Australia, New Zealand; and, most definitely, compensation is rising.

Fear of midlevels is largely a bogeyman. It certainly hasn't resulted in a net negative impact on compensation in family medicine. And the game is played way the hell above our heads anyways. You're not going to get far arguing about it on SDN or mentioning it to your clerkship director, especially when if it means insulting or alienating people.

Preclinicals, I wish you the best of luck. Like I said before, I think the most important skill to develop is the ability to critically evaluate knowledge. You don't know me, and you don't know my qualifications. All you know is the data I've presented. Make up your own minds, and don't rule out a specialty (or needlessly denigrate your colleagues or other health professionals) based on the advice of your sometimes uninformed seniors.

http://medgroup.ucsf.edu/sites/medgroup.ucsf.edu/files/the_basics_of_rvus_and_rbrvs_0.pdf
https://www.sgim.org/File Library/SGIM/Communities/Advocacy/Advocacy 101/Do-RVUs-Undervalue-Primary-Care---Primer-on-the-RUC-3-14-2014.pdf
Medicaid patients can still go to the E.D. for free.

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile
 
I'm a resident and had a NP precept me for a few weeks of geriatric rotation during residency, completely unacceptable..she snapped at me when I politely asked the other RN if she could check the patients orthostatic vital signs..NP preceptor told me to go check it myself in front of the other nurse..yeah...
 
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I didn't miss that, and it's a fairly obvious "solution" that will solve basically nothing (at least on the large scale in most fields).

I didn't mean to suggest that it will actually solve the issue. But it is a definite possibility.
 
I'm a resident and had a NP precept me for a few weeks of geriatric rotation during residency, completely unacceptable..she snapped at me when I politely asked the other RN if she could check the patients orthostatic vital signs..NP preceptor told me to go check it myself in front of the other nurse..yeah...

The fact that you're being put with an np as a resident is unimaginable. Why even have a rotation like that? And you're completely within your rights to tell the nurse to get orthostatics. "If you don't want to her to do it, you do it." She's probably one of those straight through np nurses who doesn't know how to do basic nursing tasks though.
 
The fact that you're being put with an np as a resident is unimaginable. Why even have a rotation like that? And you're completely within your rights to tell the nurse to get orthostatics. "If you don't want to her to do it, you do it." She's probably one of those straight through np nurses who doesn't know how to do basic nursing tasks though.
If a residency program deemed a person who skipped residency to be skilled enough to precept a resident, they've basically stated that residency is unnecessary.
 
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If a residency program deemed a person who skipped residency to be skilled enough to precept a resident, they've basically stated that residency is unnecessary.
Nah, the difference between a midlevel and an attending is the ceiling. The point where the midlevel will have nothing more to teach a resident will happen relatively early. But until a resident reaches that point a midlevel can be a fountain of knowledge. No reason not to take advantage of it until you've exhausted that fountain.

In terms of evaluation, in many places in medicine they now use a 360 degree evaluation system. Meaning every person you work with, nurses, midlevels, etc. will gets to weigh in on you even if you are higher in the hierarchy. PDs take it for what it's worth but the stuff gets filed away. You don't get grades in residency so who is evaluating you doesn't matter all that much.
 
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Nah, the difference between a midlevel and an attending is the ceiling. The point where the midlevel will have nothing more to teach a resident will happen relatively early. But until a resident reaches that point a midlevel can be a fountain of knowledge. No reason not to take advantage of it until you've exhausted that fountain.

In terms of evaluation, in many places in medicine they now use a 360 degree evaluation system. Meaning every person you work with, nurses, midlevels, etc. will gets to weigh in on you even if you are higher in the hierarchy. PDs take it for what it's worth but the stuff gets filed away. You don't get grades in residency so who is evaluating you doesn't matter all that much.
Is that true about law school? Are you ever precepted or evaluated by paralegals? Just generally curious.
 
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Is that true about law school? Are you ever precepted or evaluated by paralegals? Just generally curious.
We don't "train" with paralegals, so it's a bit different. there really is no clinical phase of law school - it's all classroom based. You emerge from law school the legal equivalent of attending. (And that's not a good thing btw). So no.
 
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We don't "train" with paralegals, so it's a bit different. there really is no clinical phase of law school - it's all classroom based. You emerge from law school the legal equivalent of attending. (And that's not a good thing btw). So no.
Is that really true? When you get your first job out of law school do you have all the same responsibilities as the senior most lawyer? I thought your responsibilities would increase with experience, much like residency (without a formal training process, of course).
 
Is that really true? When you get your first job out of law school do you have all the same responsibilities as the senior most lawyer? I thought your responsibilities would increase with experience, much like residency (without a formal training process, of course).
You can hang up a shingle, take clients on, go to court etc. you are full fledged at that point -- totally different than residency. Like in any job you are given more responsibility as you prove yourself, so you'll be the second chair at the meetings for a while, and you'll learn from mentors along the way. But you'll be leading a team of paralegals and secretaries pretty much from day one, and may be going to court or client meetings very early on without supervision. Having done both careers you aren't really a trainee The same way in law, your victories are your own and if you screw up in law you stand alone. At a firm, the more senior people tend to focus on client development and big picture stuff while the juniors are the grunts handling the details, but you aren't really working under anyone else's license, and your name goes on the final documents - nobody is signing off on you.
 
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You can hang up a shingle, take clients on, go to court etc. you are full fledged at that point -- totally different than residency. Like in any job you are given more responsibility as you prove yourself, so you'll be the second chair at the meetings for a while, and you'll learn from mentors along the way. But you'll be leading a team of paralegals and secretaries pretty much from day one, and may be going to court or client meetings very early on without supervision. Having done both careers you aren't really a trainee The same way in law, your victories are your own and if you screw up in law you stand alone. At a firm, the more senior people tend to focus on client development and big picture stuff while the juniors are the grunts handling the details, but you aren't really working under anyone else's license, and your name goes on the final documents - nobody is signing off on you.

What do you think about the current law market? I know some people that are interested in law, despite the seemingly terrible job market. Your thoughts?
 
You can hang up a shingle, take clients on, go to court etc. you are full fledged at that point -- totally different than residency. Like in any job you are given more responsibility as you prove yourself, so you'll be the second chair at the meetings for a while, and you'll learn from mentors along the way. But you'll be leading a team of paralegals and secretaries pretty much from day one, and may be going to court or client meetings very early on without supervision. Having done both careers you aren't really a trainee The same way in law, your victories are your own and if you screw up in law you stand alone. At a firm, the more senior people tend to focus on client development and big picture stuff while the juniors are the grunts handling the details, but you aren't really working under anyone else's license, and your name goes on the final documents - nobody is signing off on you.
Is there a reason why law has a much lower threshold to practice than medicine? It seems to me that an incompetent lawyer can do almost as much damage to your life as an incompetent doctor, with the exception of actually killing you (although I suppose that could happen if you end up getting the death penalty).
 
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Is there a reason why law has a much lower threshold to practice than medicine? It seems to me that an incompetent lawyer can do almost as much damage to your life as an incompetent doctor, with the exception of actually killing you (although I suppose that could happen if you end up getting the death penalty).
It's not a good thing, and largely just based on history. Incompetent lawyers can definitely cost people money, which frankly is more dear to some than death of a loved one.
 
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