Are pediatricians happy?

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principessa

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I will enter medical school in the fall and although I'm open-minded about specialties, I'm really drawn to pediatrics. I recently told my fiance's uncle, a radiologist, about this, and he said that pediatricians are the unhappiest doctors. He said they are the most likely to do another residency and switch specialties.

Is this true? If so, why do so many pediatricians switch specialties?
 
Hard to say.

However, it seems that certain medical specialties attract certain personality types. Pediatricians as a whole seem to be pretty happy-go-lucky folks, but that's just my observation.

Anecdotal, but my two cents.
 
For what it's worth, Iserson's "Getting Into a Residency" has a table listing relative satisfaction of doctors in various specialties. General Pediatrics is in the top 10 at 48.1% "Very Satisfied" (range is 27%-59%). The info is apparently from 2000 AMA survey data. Of course each subspecialty will vary as well. In truth, you simply have to ask yourself if YOU would be happy. Make every effort to gain a realistic perspective of the specialties that interest you and go with what will make YOU happy.

I would quite unhappy as a radiologist I think but am planning on loving pediatrics. 😉 Don't let others tell you what specialty will make you happy -- you're the one that has to (or gets to) go to work every day in the specialty you choose.

Good luck!
 
I think all the radiation got to your uncles head. What he said is not true at all. From my experience pediatricians are among the happiest doctors. From my experience general surgeons and internists and the unhappiest docs. Everyone is going to have their opinions. You will need to figure out these things for yourself as you go through med school. Use yo
 
principessa said:
I will enter medical school in the fall and although I'm open-minded about specialties, I'm really drawn to pediatrics. I recently told my fiance's uncle, a radiologist, about this, and he said that pediatricians are the unhappiest doctors. He said they are the most likely to do another residency and switch specialties.

Is this true? If so, why do so many pediatricians switch specialties?

Dear Principessa: I have found that it is common for people in one specialty to be sure that the people in another specialty are either more or less happy than they are. I've enclosed an abstract that gives some actual data about physician satisfaction in pediatrics, and if you want more information, it is easy to do a medline search using terms like "pediatricians" and "job" and "satisfaction" to find a few other articles.

My own perspective is that, like many primary care specialties, the stress of seeing more patients in less time, more difficulty getting third party reimbursements and the increase in malpractice claims has caused many older pediatricians to see the field less positively than they might have early in their career. However, I don't see that attitude in younger pedis or in pediatric residents whose expectations are more in tune with current realities. I've known very, very few people to complete residency in pedi and then switch to another residency, but I'm unaware of statistics on this.

Perhaps you can look at the enclosed article or other similar ones and we can discuss this topic more.

Regards

"oldbearprofessor"

My apologies for not knowing how best to link this reference....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entr...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11533358


Pediatrics. 2001 Sep;108(3):E40.



Shugerman R, Linzer M, Nelson K, Douglas J, Williams R, Konrad R; Career Satisfaction Study Group.

Department of Pediatrics, University of Washington, Seattle, Washington, USA. [email protected]
Pediatric generalists and subspecialists: determinants of career satisfaction
OBJECTIVES: To evaluate the work life and job satisfaction of pediatric generalists and subspecialists in comparison to each other and to a group of general internists and internal medicine subspecialists. METHODS: Data were collected by survey of a national sample of 5704 general pediatricians, subspecialty pediatricians, general internists, internal medicine subspecialists, and family physicians who were selected randomly from the American Medical Association Masterfile using stratified sampling with disproportionate weighting to ensure ethnic diversity and representation of high managed care areas. Surveys were mailed up to 4 times and contained 150 items that reflected 10 facets of physician job satisfaction as well as an assessment of individual and practice demographic information. This study reports data from all groups except for family medicine. RESULTS: The adjusted response rate was 58% for general pediatricians (n = 590), 67% for specialty pediatricians (n = 345), and 52% (n = 1823) for the entire pool. In comparison with general internists, general pediatricians were more likely to be female (44% vs 24%); to work part time (20% vs 12%); to have lower annual income ($125 679 vs $143 875); and to report significantly higher levels of job, career, and specialty satisfaction on a 5-point scale (3.81 vs 3.52, 3.80 vs 3.55, and 3.76 vs 3.17 respectively). In comparison with internal medicine subspecialists, pediatric subspecialists were more likely to be female (42% vs 22%); to work in academically affiliated settings (35% vs 17%); to have lower incomes ($156 284 vs $192 006); to receive significantly less time for a complete history and physical examination (39 minutes vs 51 minutes); and to report similar levels of job, career, and specialty satisfaction (3.69 vs 3.71, 3.74 vs 3.78, and 3.60 vs 3.47 respectively). Of all 4 physician groups, general pediatricians worked the fewest hours (50/week), spent the greatest percentage of time in the office and the lowest percentage in the hospital (58% and 16%, respectively), saw the lowest percentage of patients with complex medical and complex psychosocial problems (15% and 17%, respectively), and were the least likely to endorse symptoms of burnout or job stress (13% and 18%, respectively). In comparison, pediatric subspecialists worked longer hours (59/week), spent the lowest percentage of time in the office and the greatest percentage of time in the hospital (22% and 44%, respectively), saw a much higher percentage of patients with complex medical and complex psychosocial problems (46% and 25%, respectively), and reported significantly higher levels of burnout and job stress (23% and 26%, respectively). CONCLUSIONS: Despite lower incomes, general pediatricians reported the highest levels of satisfaction and the least job stress of all 4 physician groups, whereas pediatric subspecialists reported levels of stress and burnout that raise significant concerns for the workforce of pediatric subspecialists of the future. Initiatives that improve clinical workload, balance inpatient and outpatient hours, and increase personal time of pediatric subspecialists should be considered.
 
Thanks everyone. I'm really looking forward to learning more about peds. This doc tried to rain on my parade multiple times:

Me: I'd like to work in an academic setting.
Him: You'll make less money.
Me: I want to teach and do research, and the business side of private practice doesn't appeal to me.
Him: You'll starve.
Me: I'm thinking about pediatrics.
Him: You'll be miserable.

Why do people do this?
 
principessa said:
Thanks everyone. I'm really looking forward to learning more about peds. This doc tried to rain on my parade multiple times:

Me: I'd like to work in an academic setting.
Him: You'll make less money.
Me: I want to teach and do research, and the business side of private practice doesn't appeal to me.
Him: You'll starve.
Me: I'm thinking about pediatrics.
Him: You'll be miserable.

Why do people do this?

Why? Because they don't want to admit that the single most important factor to them is money. Plain and simple. Why did 10% of Yale's graduating class go into Derm. Same answer: money. "You'll Starve" What a stupid comment. Many of these people just can't see that money isn't everything.

Ed
 
Why? Because they don't want to admit that the single most important factor to them is money. Plain and simple. Why did 10% of Yale's graduating class go into Derm. Same answer: money. "You'll Starve" What a stupid comment. Many of these people just can't see that money isn't everything.

Hmmm...I thought it was their burning dedication to the dermatological welfare of humankind :laugh:
 
That's something I've been telling people - that pediatricians' satisfaction with their jobs are at or near the top, and, at the same time, their average salaries are at the bottom - with a specialty (adolescent medicine) that is a rarity - where a fellowship will get you less per year than if you had not done the specialty.

Peds people can't pay their staff, can't pay their loans, yet LOVE their jobs, whereas people making gazillions per year and hating every day of it are legion.
 
Apollyon said:
That's something I've been telling people - that pediatricians' satisfaction with their jobs are at or near the top, and, at the same time, their average salaries are at the bottom - with a specialty (adolescent medicine) that is a rarity - where a fellowship will get you less per year than if you had not done the specialty.

Peds people can't pay their staff, can't pay their loans, yet LOVE their jobs, whereas people making gazillions per year and hating every day of it are legion.

That's a really interesting point, but there might be some selection bias within each group at work.

Peds, and especially peds subspecialists, KNOW they are getting paid less than their IM counterparts but still decide to go into peds. Why? Because they know they will like their job and who they deal with that much.

All the people in it just for the money pursue other avenues, and when you do something for around 60 hours a week just for the money and hate it--youre not going to like your job.

I have all the respect in the world for peds people, because to have 250k in debt and still do peds (like my cousin) just for the love of it, well, its about a noble a thing as you can do in medicine from that standpoint.

Plus, I hear peds people are good colleagues too, in part because of those very personality traits (some of which apply to academia in general) 😀
 
Apollyon,

What are you talking about? Peds people can;t pay their staff, can't pay their loans. So are you saying that Pediatricians literally are impoverished? Are they on food stamps? Does their staff work for free then if they can't pay their staff? Are they in default of their loans. Is their credit then ruined forever. Do they live in housing projects? Do they take the bus to work? I am really confused. Can you clarify your statements. Were they meant to be taken literally?

Are opthalmologists who make gazillions of dollars a year miserable? Do they hate their life? Are they really all miserable? Can you clarify this as well?

I'm really confused. Help me.


Thanks
 
jdog said:
Apollyon,

What are you talking about? Peds people can;t pay their staff, can't pay their loans. So are you saying that Pediatricians literally are impoverished? Are they on food stamps? Does their staff work for free then if they can't pay their staff? Are they in default of their loans. Is their credit then ruined forever. Do they live in housing projects? Do they take the bus to work? I am really confused. Can you clarify your statements. Were they meant to be taken literally?

Are opthalmologists who make gazillions of dollars a year miserable? Do they hate their life? Are they really all miserable? Can you clarify this as well?

I'm really confused. Help me.


Thanks

I think its hyperbole 😉.

I think the point is that pediatricians get paid a lot less than their IM or adult surgical counterparts yet are still happier. I do think its weird that your salary for your subspecialty can be lower than if you hadn't specialized at all though. That strikes me as very strange.
 
Glad to see some intelligent comments on this thread . . .

First, as oldbearprofessor writes, it's true that much of the existing dissatisfaction in peds has to do with the previous generation of peds docs who are not accustomed to seeing the speciality in its current light. Yes, reimbursements are lower and yes, work hours are long, but those who are going into it right now already know that and hopefully won't be in for too much of a shock!

And as edmadison writes, the "You'll starve" comment is ridiculous. Even if I made the bottom salary at, say, 60K, you won't find me complaining in a world where people make a LOT, LOT less and manage to be happy. True, large student loans and such will delay your hopes for a Mercedes and vacation home in Florida, but then ask yourself why you are going into medicine . . .

Your fiancee's uncle, a radiologist, claims that pediatricians are the unhappiest people in the world . . . WHAT???? Most (not all) pediatricians love what they do. I personally cannot imagine sitting in a dark room looking at films all day. And yes, I had the grades and board scores for just about anything I would want to do (okay, maybe except derm), but I chose pediatrics on the same day I chose to do medicine and never looked back. I cannot imagine doing anything else! What a beautiful specialty!

I could not imagine dealing day in/day out with emphysema patients who refuse to quit smoking, diabetics who refuse to change their diet, hepatic cirrhosis patients who refuse to stop drinking, and ER frequent flyers who refuse to control their health care resource utilization. Seeing my 20th cholescystectomy or appendectomy was not breath-taking. Rushing in to deliver the body of a baby when the nurse had already done most of the coaching and delivery herself was not terribly challenging, at most times. Talking to depressed people and constantly prescribing/tweaking psych meds was not challenging. True, you see some of this in peds. And somehow, it's usually okay because you and the parents are usually on the same side - both of you want to see the child getting better.

So, no I could not take care of the above patients and lead a satisfied life - but I would hope that someone who loves adult medicine is around for me or my folks when we develop chronic illness. Similarly, I don't fault others for hating the screaming and smelly, poopy kids who tear up their offices - but they have to realize that someone needs to be around to take care of their kids when worse comes to worst.

To each his own.

Go with your gut - you'll know when the time comes if peds is right for you.
 
I am a soon to be MSIV planning on going into radiology. I seriously considered a pediatric subspecialty. I never felt bad about staying late because the patients were worth helping, there illnesses were no fault of their own. From my experiences the peds residents and attendings were some of the happiest and most satisfied people I worked with this year. I admire their nobility, because I feel that all GOOD primary care docs are drastically underpaid. I feel that people in peds truly do it b/c they love it and are willing to give up a lot of money and time for the most satisfying patient contact in medicine. That being said, I think that it depends on how much you LOVE a specialty. I ended up liking everything and did not feel strongly enough about any specialty to dedicate my life to it. I decided on rads (probably interventional), largely b/c of procedural nature/broad scope/ and yes, lifestyle. I figured that if I hated my 4th yr electives or residency I could always switch to peds/medicine. By the way, radiologist do not just sit in a dark room all day unless they choose to. The only time you see a radiologist is in the reading room and therefore everyone thinks they spend all their time there. Just as pediatricians do not just see OM and runny noses.

If money is a big issue for you then peds may not provide you with all your wants. But if you love it go for it. You will not "starve." I suggest speaking with as many pediatricians, both subspecialist and generalist/ academics and PP, and see what it is that makes them happy. Ask them about job satisfaction/money/hrs. See if what makes them happy would make you happy, especially the females if you plan on playing an active role in raising your kids. Keep in mind that older docs are more bitter in all specialties for reasons already discussed. Even as a future radiologist I will say that there is nothing more satisfying than curing a kid. I think that it is one of the few rewards in medicine that is still worth all the headaches we must endure and hoops we have to jump through to oneday practice medicine. Good luck.
 
jdog said:
Apollyon,

What are you talking about? Peds people can;t pay their staff, can't pay their loans. So are you saying that Pediatricians literally are impoverished? Are they on food stamps? Does their staff work for free then if they can't pay their staff? Are they in default of their loans. Is their credit then ruined forever. Do they live in housing projects? Do they take the bus to work? I am really confused. Can you clarify your statements. Were they meant to be taken literally?

Are opthalmologists who make gazillions of dollars a year miserable? Do they hate their life? Are they really all miserable? Can you clarify this as well?

I'm really confused. Help me.


Thanks

Dude - the world is grey - not black and white, as you're trying to elicit.

I can't speak for ALL ophthalmologists, nor for all pediatricians. And, no, in your concrete way, peds aren't on food stamps, or laying off staff. But they're not rolling in cash, either. It's just the averages of income.

If you're confused by SDN, I feel for you.
 
Gleevec said:
I do think its weird that your salary for your subspecialty can be lower than if you hadn't specialized at all though. That strikes me as very strange.

Adolescent is one, and adult endocrinology is another. I was also told allergy/immuno. Also, if someone does heme only (without onc), and doesn't find a niche that you're the ONLY doc for disease "X", you can also make less.
 
True - many subspecialties don't pay much more than general peds, or even less - but it's still pretty good and the schedule is a heck of a lot better, I think. 😉
 
If there are any young impressionable med students out there reading these posts, reading things like pediatricians are starving, reading the pity of other specialists saying how sorry they feel for pediatricians, reading about how miserable people are, I want to give my words of advice. You don't know who I am or where I am or anything about me, so I am not trying to give yoiu advice on what is going to make you happy or what salary is going to make yiou happy. so here is my advice.

1. The only way to really get answers to these questions is to ASK people directly. Find a pediatrician and straight up ask them how much money they make. Don't listen to this Bull on here about starving pediatricians and 60 K salaries. Ask the docs at your med school Ask community docs. Only then will you know the real answer.

2. Decide for yourself what is a good salary. someone above posted that he would be happy with 60K for a salary and could live a comfortable life. Salary issues are very personal and you need to decide for yourself. How dare anyone tell you what an acceptable salary is. You need to decide what is going to make you happy, take the information you gained from talking to docs, and then make your decision.

3. Why would you listen to other's people's perception of who is happy and who is not. See what it is like at your med school. See which docs are happy. Everyone has their little anecdotal evidence of who is happy and who is not. Feel it out on your own. You also need to see why they are not happy. is if the hours. is it the money. is it the patient population they deal with. is it the hospital.

4. Don't steryotype other specialties. for example

a. Pediatricians don't make any money
b. Radiologists sit in a dark room all day
c. Surgeons are all jerks and hate their job.
d. as someone commented above--ob gyn just walk in the delivery room and don't do anything.
e. anesthesia is boring

MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND BASED UPON YOUR EXPERIENCE.

I will never forget in med school, a very arrogant radiology resident told me that pediatricians made 80K a year working 70 hours a week and were all miserable. Being naive I believed him and wrote off pediatrics.
Then I did my own investigating, found that that was complete bull----, and here I am.

3.
 
Here's a salary survey from multiple sources.

"Physicians who specialize in the treatment of children, newborns, the elderly and skin disorders and who practice in the New England and West Central regions of the country are more satisfied with their careers than their colleagues in other specialties and regions, say researchers at the UC Davis School of Medicine and Medical Center."

From this article from UC Davis.

Primary care pays less - that's a proven fact. I suspect (but have no evidence) that peds practitioners get paid often less than IM because they are more willing to provide care to the indigent/uninsured who cannot pay (since they are children).

I just finished my peds block this morning, and, what I can tell you is that peds are, as a group, the nicest people I've met this year, hands down. Moreover, they are some of the most caring, giving people I've ever met. It's not about the money, as far as I could see.
 
http://www.smbs.buffalo.edu/RESIDENT/CareerCounseling/intro.htm

This is a great link. The results for each specialty are based upon surveys within that specialty. It analyzes everything from job satisfaction/patient interaction to money/hrs. It highlights what docs do and don't like about their specialties. I highy recommend taking a look at it. A lot of the info is suprising. Enjoy.
 
Apollyon said:
Here's a salary survey from multiple sources.

"Physicians who specialize in the treatment of children, newborns, the elderly and skin disorders and who practice in the New England and West Central regions of the country are more satisfied with their careers than their colleagues in other specialties and regions, say researchers at the UC Davis School of Medicine and Medical Center."

It's interesting that physicians in the Midwest report higher levels of career satisfaction than those in California, but it seems everyone wants to practice in California. All of these links are interesting. Keep it coming.
 
Hudson said:
http://www.smbs.buffalo.edu/RESIDENT/CareerCounseling/intro.htm

This is a great link. The results for each specialty are based upon surveys within that specialty. It analyzes everything from job satisfaction/patient interaction to money/hrs. It highlights what docs do and don't like about their specialties. I highy recommend taking a look at it. A lot of the info is suprising. Enjoy.

That link is REALLY cool. Then again, I take emode tests for fun. So my definition of cool is kinda screwy. 😉

Thanks!
 
jdog said:
Don't listen to this Bull on here about starving pediatricians and 60 K salaries.

Decide for yourself what is a good salary. someone above posted that he would be happy with 60K for a salary and could live a comfortable life.

Why would you listen to other's people's perception of who is happy and who is not. See what it is like at your med school. See which docs are happy.

4. Don't steryotype other specialties. for example

a. Pediatricians don't make any money
b. Radiologists sit in a dark room all day
c. Surgeons are all jerks and hate their job.
d. as someone commented above--ob gyn just walk in the delivery room and don't do anything.
e. anesthesia is boring

MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND BASED UPON YOUR EXPERIENCE.

I will never forget in med school, a very arrogant radiology resident told me that pediatricians made 80K a year working 70 hours a week and were all miserable. Being naive I believed him and wrote off pediatrics.
Then I did my own investigating, found that that was complete bull----, and here I am.

3.

jdog: I think we are in agreement here . . . for the most part.

First, the figure of 60K wasn't meant to be taken literally. I have no idea what a bottom-end salary is for a pediatrician. It really depends. I know 2 docs who are making a lot less doing charity work overseas, and a specialist who is making about 200K. But it's not only about salaries . . .

I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone by overgeneralizing what other doctors do all day. I totally agree that this is all such a personal experience. Obviously there is a spectrum of good/bad, pleasant/unpleasant, challenging/rote in all areas of medicine. The comments about all the other specialties were just my own experiences and what led me to choose peds (even though I always knew I wanted to do it, seeing other stuff really cemented my decision. Also, just the general breadth of pediatric issues I found interesting.)

I don't want impressionable med students to get the wrong idea. I just wanted to throw out there that yes, some of us actually chose peds because we love it, and not because we weren't well informed or because we couldn't do anything else. As for making comments that could sway people's minds, be careful, jdog:

" I think all the radiation got to your uncles head. What he said is not true at all. From my experience pediatricians are among the happiest doctors. From my experience general surgeons and internists and the unhappiest docs."
 
One thing about pediatrics is that you can do it until you are in the grave. Where as the work life expectancy of a surgeon ER or specialist doing procedures seems to be a little bit shorter. If you enjoy it you probably make up for the money issue by working a little longer. Lets face it it does not take much hard work to be a pediatrician if you genuinely enjoy it. I think older general pediatrician probably get even a little more respect than younger ones. Where as older specialty fields require youger up to date docs. I see this in surgery and cardiology. IMHO what do you guys think?
 
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