Are Physicians Being Squeezed?

[Riboflavin]

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As I said before, most PhD's don't get tenure. And yes, I have the luck to have a half-broke PhD as a cousin, and a freaking rich MD as another cousin. And I have shadowed a few MD's, some of whom are absolutely awesome, and others who don't know what the meaning of ethical behavior is (like asking a HS student for his parents' credit card number for a shadowing experience).

So, this is a "I don't think doctors deserve that kind of money, and all of them are rich *******s who drive around in their Mercedes and live like the dudes from Nip/Tuck" kinda rant?

Did you read the first post? Do you research this a lot? Just because you know a few doctors are rich, it means they all are? Of course, just like I am too avoid every African American because I was robbed once, and every Hispanic will be happy to clean my yard!

 

[Riboflavin]

Tttaa, take a step back and admit that you are young and while you may have experiences pertinent to minimum wage labor, you have no clue what doctors do or the risks involved in their work. You simply do not understand how taxing a physician lifestyle can be and, when compared to the multitude of other comparable professional career paths that offer far better time/money compensation, we want to defend our entitlement to being paid what we are worth. We did not stop working for 8+ years to make the same amount as a car salesman does, even if it is enough to live off of.

Good point!

Also, I want you, Tttaa, to wake up tomorrow morning and decide what course of action you need to take to make sure someone doesn't die.

You have 5 seconds.

5...4...3...2...1 Oops! Times up.

 

[melanoleuca]

As I said before, most PhD's don't get tenure. And yes, I have the luck to have a half-broke PhD as a cousin, and a freaking rich MD as another cousin. And I have shadowed a few MD's, some of whom are absolutely awesome, and others who don't know what the meaning of ethical behavior is (like asking a HS student for his parents' credit card number for a shadowing experience).

Too bad for your half-broke cousin. But my taking a pay cut is not going to improve his circumstances. Instead of agitating for a pay cut in a career that you don't even have and in regard to which the government, hospitals, groups, and your patients will be more than happy to oblige, you should be agitating for higher pay for PhDs.

Doctoral candidates do not, by the way, work as hard as medical students and residents. There is a difference staying up, eating cheetos and bitching about your professor and being on call as a resident or working three 12-hour shifts in a row in a busy Emergency Department.

 

[Riboflavin]

Too bad for your half-broke cousin. But my taking a pay cut is not going to improve his circumstances. Instead of agitating for a pay cut in a career that you don't even have and in regard to which the government, hospitals, groups, and your patients will be more than happy to oblige, you should be agitating for higher pay for PhDs.

Doctoral candidates do not, by the way, work as hard as medical students and residents. There is a difference staying up, eating cheetos and bitching about your professor and being on call as a resident or working three 12-hour shifts in a row in a busy Emergency Department.

Not laughing at the situation, but mainly the eating Cheetos part!

 

[tttaaa]

"Doctoral candidates do not, by the way, work as hard as medical students and residents. There is a difference staying up, eating cheetos and bitching about your professor and being on call as a resident "

My experiences with postdocs/PhD's differ markedly. Doing research is most often, much, much more demanding than what you are saying. If it were easy, then why don't you solve for the 3-D structure for that random new protein I found in Nature last time?

"We did not stop working for 8+ years to make the same amount as a car salesman does"

And you don't make as much as he does. And in life, many, many people with a lower degree than you will make many times your income. But that doesn't entitle you to a higher income.

"and all of them are rich *******s who drive around in their Mercedes and live like the dudes from Nip/Tuck" kinda rant?

Did you read the first post? Do you research this a lot? Just because you know a few doctors are rich, it means they all are? Of course, just like I am too avoid every African American because I was robbed once, and every Hispanic will be happy to clean my yard!"

This is very immature from you. I did not stereotype. You did. I said "many," not all.

 

[circulus vitios]

He's also missing the point that doctorates programs (for the sciences at least) are free and even provide a stipend if you work as a TA.

And you don't make as much as he does. And in life, many, many people with a lower degree than you will make many times your income. But that doesn't entitle you to a higher income.

Are you familiar with the phrase 'exception to the rule'?

An MD/DO and a combined decade or more of schooling + training doesn't entitle me to a higher income than a car salesman?

 

[Riboflavin]

He's also missing the point that doctorates programs (for the sciences at least) are free and even provide a stipend if you work as a TA.

I mentioned that already, but I bet he's just looking at what is easier to argue against.

 

[DarknightX]

Honestly, if most of you don't care about how much you would make in your job (and this goes for any job) then you're not really being smart about your future. Because your landlord, you debt collectors, your insurance company and everyone else who wants your money doesn't care that you are a doctor. All they care about is that the check is in the mail.

👍👍👍

That was my point exactly. It doesn't make any person "bad" or "unappreciative of their career" to look out for their own financial security. You'd be a ***** if you didn't.

 

[Riboflavin]

And why do we always attack doctors? I know of plenty of occupations were people get paid ridiculous amounts of money for (when compared to a doctor's work) is nothing.

 

[tttaaa]

On average, a plumber in our area will make more than an engineer. Do engineers complain as much as you do?

And nail polish people can make many times what I will make, without having to go to college... Is that fair? No. We'll just have to suck it up.

"ridiculous amounts of money for (when compared to a doctor's work) is nothing. "

Yes, but those people are the exception to the rule. Being a doctor is the norm, once you get your MD.

"He's also missing the point that doctorates programs (for the sciences at least) are free and even provide a stipend if you work as a TA"

So does Residency. And many PhD's take longer than medical schooling. Postdocs can last even longer. And the attrition rate is much higher than what you get through med school/residency.

"I mentioned that already, but I bet he's just looking at what is easier to argue against."
Well, you also single out my points discriminately. My typing speed is limited.

 

[Riboflavin]

On average, a plumber in our area will make more than an engineer. Do engineers complain as much as you do?

And nail polish people can make many times what I will make, without having to go to college... Is that fair? No. We'll just have to suck it up.

"ridiculous amounts of money for (when compared to a doctor's work) is nothing. " Yes, but those people are the exception to the rule. Being a doctor is the norm, once you get your MD.

I love how you speak in generalities in all of your posts. I demand to see a list of all the engineers in your area that validate that comment.

 

[chessknt]

Let me get this straight, he is a HS senior who has to work 80 hrs a week to support his family, yet he has time to shadow MDs, PHDs, read nature, and bitch on SDN? This guy is a miracle!

 

[tttaaa]

"Let me get this straight, he is a HS senior who has to work 80 hrs a week to support his family, yet he has time to shadow MDs, PHDs, read nature, and bitch on SDN? This guy is a miracle!"

Not all at the same time 😀. I used the past tense when I talked about my working conditions.

 

[circulus vitios]

On average, a plumber in our area will make more than an engineer. Do engineers complain as much as you do?

And nail polish people can make many times what I will make, without having to go to college... Is that fair? No. We'll just have to suck it up.

"ridiculous amounts of money for (when compared to a doctor's work) is nothing. "

Yes, but those people are the exception to the rule. Being a doctor is the norm, once you get your MD.

"He's also missing the point that doctorates programs (for the sciences at least) are free and even provide a stipend if you work as a TA"

So does Residency. And many PhD's take longer than medical schooling. Postdocs can last even longer. And the attrition rate is much higher than what you get through med school/residency.

Do you understand what an average is? You're telling me that the average plumber, and not just a select few, makes $50-60k/year?

Residency does not waive tuition. The attrition rate for graduate school may be higher, but there's no big loss when you have $0 in debt and a terminal masters degree vs $200k of debt and no future career if you drop out of a residency program.

If you want to be a little martyr, then go to graduate school or give away whatever arbitrary amount of money that doesn't make you 'feel sick to your stomach'.

 

[tttaaa]

"I demand to see a list of all the engineers in your area that validate that comment."

The avg. lifetime learning, adjusting for time-value of money, will be lower for an engineer than a plumber. Simple as that. I found it on another website, and will try to provide it to you if you want to.

And circulus, money has a time-value to it. Spending 10 yrs on your graduate work, and restarting from scratch is definitely not as bad as going to med school and failing out. But only 3% of med students fail out of med schools. You are talking about a tiny minority of those students.

 

[Riboflavin]

"Let me get this straight, he is a HS senior who has to work 80 hrs a week to support his family, yet he has time to shadow MDs, PHDs, read nature, and bitch on SDN? This guy is a miracle!"

Not all at the same time 😀. I used the past tense when I talked about my working conditions.

"I'm a senior in high school, but I work my butt off in restaurants and mowing lawns and help out my parents (who are doing the same kind of jobs I am doing). So no, we are nowhere near 60k/yr. And hitting 80 hrs/week? That's routine for us. And I know some of my relatives who have been cooks, make 15k/yr, chopped off their fingers in their jobs, and can't pay for medical bills anyway... that's something to complain about!"

Where?

 

[Gut Shot]

Uh... PhD's also go through that hell too. And guess what, the luckiest of them all would probably near 1/3 of your future salary, and get 1/10th of your job security.

Well, naturally. The supply of physicians has been limited, and PhDs have been cranked out at an appalling rate.

While I would never demean research as a career, PhDs are not the ones accepting enormous liability to directly manage people's lives.

Sincerely,

Gut Shot, MD, PhD

 

[Riboflavin]

"I demand to see a list of all the engineers in your area that validate that comment."

The avg. lifetime learning, adjusting for time-value of money, will be lower for an engineer than a plumber. Simple as that. I found it on another website, and will try to provide it to you if you want to.

But you said if your area, how do you suspect that a demand for engineers just isn't needed in your area? Or maybe that plumbers are scarce and that can monopolize the surrounding areas. Or vice-versa, there could be an abundance of engineers where you live.

 

[tttaaa]

Where?

Yeah, sry, typo. I missed it. It should be "worked"

Riboflavin, i'm talking about the avg engineer/plumber in that previous post. Not even in my area. In the US.

 

[DarknightX]

I'm a senior in high school, but I work my butt off in restaurants and mowing lawns and help out my parents (who are doing the same kind of jobs I am doing). So no, we are nowhere near 60k/yr. And hitting 80 hrs/week? That's routine for us. And I know some of my relatives who have been cooks, make 15k/yr, chopped off their fingers in their jobs, and can't pay for medical bills anyway... that's something to complain about!

And posts like this makes me want to puke. Honestly.

You mow lawns and work in restaurants? And you are trying to compare this to medicine?

I'm sorry that you and your parents have crappy jobs and work 80 hours a week. But you need to understand the concept of value. Your skills (mowing lawns and working in restaurants) have very little value. Why?
Because you can pull anyone off the street and have them do it. I can go mow a lawn or bus some tables without any training. Can you give me the differential for chest pain? Can you read an EKG and diagnose the difference between acid reflux and an MI? Can you come up with a management and treatment plan?

You can't, and you can't pull someone off the street and have them do the same. That is what I mean by value.

And your agument about PhD's is just stupid. The problem with PhD's who aren't making money is that they aren't producing anything. A PhD who is purely doing research is being paid on the premise that they MIGHT discover something useful. What happens when a PhD makes a significant discovery? They get tenured and get the opportunity for a better job. This is why PhD's who do produce value (ie the ones who get tenured) make money and get tenure at major universities.

If your cousin isn't making money, it's because he doesn't produce anything of value. Tell him to make some significant discovery (and no, sequencing the genotype of some insignificant organism or doing an analysis of 18th century literature isn't of any value). Providing services, making discoveries that can lead to tangible products is of value. This is why your other cousin is making money as an MD. He's producing something - a service.

You see, physicians are providing a service, this is why they have value. PhD's who don't produce anything are of no monetary value.

*****.

 

[Riboflavin]

Well, naturally. The supply of physicians has been limited, and PhDs have been cranked out at an appalling rate.

While I would never demean research as a career, PhDs are not the ones accepting enormous liability to directly manage people's lives.

Sincerely,

Gut Shot, MD, PhD

👍

 

[Riboflavin]

You mow lawns and work in restaurants? And you are trying to compare this to medicine?

I'm sorry that you and your parents have crappy jobs and work 80 hours a week. But you need to understand the concept of value. Your skills (mowing lawns and working in restaurants) have very little value. Why?
Because you can pull anyone off the street and have them do it. I can go mow a lawn or bus some tables without any training. Can you give me the differential for chest pain? Can you read an EKG and diagnose the difference between acid reflux and an MI? Can you come up with a management and treatment plan?

You can't, and you can't pull someone off the street and have them do the same. That is what I mean by value.

And your agument about PhD's is just stupid. The problem with PhD's who aren't making money is that they aren't producing anything. A PhD who is purely doing research is being paid on the premise that they MIGHT discover something useful. What happens when a PhD makes a significant discovery? They get tenured and get the opportunity for a better job. This is why PhD's who do produce value (ie the ones who get tenured) make money and get tenure at major universities.

If your cousin isn't making money, it's because he doesn't produce anything of value. Tell him to make some significant discovery (and no, sequencing the genotype of some insignificant organism or doing an analysis of 18th century literature isn't of any value). Providing services, making discoveries that can lead to tangible products is of value. This is why your other cousin is making money as an MD. He's producing something - a service.

You see, physicians are providing a service, this is why they have value. PhD's who don't produce anything are of no monetary value.

*****.

I love this person!

 

[Drogba]

Go to the salary article on the first page of SDN and follow the BLS link and you will see the average salary for physicians as a group is $155,150.

You are right that SDN quotes this figure from the BLS. My figure is also from the BLS. The figure SDN quotes is calculated by the BLS as follows:

"(2) Annual wages have been calculated by multiplying the hourly mean wage by a "year-round, full-time" hours figure of 2,080 hours [40 hours per week]; for those occupations where there is not an hourly mean wage published, the annual wage has been directly calculated from the reported survey data."

Also, on the SDN cited page they do not make clear what is included as income. Extrapolating from hourly wages suggests to me that perhaps they are only considering base contract salaries.

The page I quote from the BLS addresses total compensation:

"The Medical Group Management Association's Physician Compensation and Production Survey, reports that median total compensation for physicians in 2005 varied by specialty, as shown in table 2. Total compensation for physicians reflects the amount reported as direct compensation for tax purposes, plus all voluntary salary reductions. Salary, bonus and incentive payments, research stipends, honoraria, and distribution of profits were included in total compensation."

The latter seems more reliable to me. The most obvious problem with the first is that it is an extrapolation from hourly wages to an annualized salary based on 40 hour work weeks. That is a gross understimate of work hours as far as I know. Also, it likely excludes other significant parts of a total compensation package, which is what, I think, we are concerned with here.

 

[tttaaa]

Well, maybe you wouldn't demean research as a career, but others are more than willing to do so:

"There is a difference staying up, eating cheetos and bitching about your professor and being on call as a resident or working three 12-hour shifts in a row in a busy Emergency Department"

And although I do not demean a doctor's career, I do not bear the incessant monetary complaints, when many people are much worse financially.

And I posted low-skill jobs, because some people on this thread complaining about a 60k job without debt is a bad deal needs a reality check.

 

[Bacchus]

It is a bad deal if you have higher training.

 

[Drogba]

Agreed. If you borrow $250k for med school, still have $50k outstanding from college, with an interest rate of, say, 8-9%, and then end up with that $120k peds job, and live in any sort of moderately high cost of living area, you might not be able to keep your head above water. And that's a physician earning six digits. Things are changing from just a few years ago, because the debt/interest side of the equation is fast outstripping the income side.

If all thats true then boy did you screw up and you have no one to blame but yourself, becuase you are the wrong end of EVERY distribution at EVERY step of the way...

 

[Gut Shot]

And although I do not demean a doctor's career, I do not bear the incessant monetary complaints,

Then stop reading.

 

[Riboflavin]

"The whole purpose of medicine is to put patients under the care of a physician."

That's the ideal medical world.

Sometimes it becomes, the "whole purpose of the physician is to put the patient's money in his pocket." Many, many physicians, after living through hell, definitely lose sight of what you said.

"Since you think doctors should only earn $60k"

I Never said that. The original poster who put $60k meant it without debt, and straight out of college. And he got flamed. My point was that what doctors make and will make will probably never be undercompensating them, and is definitely not sth to complain about. I rarely see a tenured-track professor complain he's too poor. Why should MD/premeds complain so much?

USA TODAY article

Medical News article

Do you pay attention to what is happening in the world around you much?

 

[DarknightX]

And although I do not demean a doctor's career, I do not bear the incessant monetary complaints, when many people are much worse financially.

And I posted low-skill jobs, because some people on this thread complaining about a 60k job without debt is a bad deal needs a reality check.

Now I'm starting to think that you're borderline ******ed.

Again, see above about low skill jobs. Low skill workers do not have value. It doesn't take much time to train a low skill worker. It takes a minimum of 11 years to train a physician, not to mention a vast amount of money.

Stop being an idiot and think for 5 minutes.

It's like being a professional athelete....Kobe Bryant gets paid $20 million dollars a year because he does something that no one else can do: He plays basketball at a high level, and people are willing to pay large amounts of money to watch him do that. Does Kobe love basketball? Yes...but will he play for free or even reduced pay? Not a chance. (by the way, all of you who are about to get started on the pro-athlete pay argument...don't. If you don't like what they make, it's very simple....stop watching sports and stop supporting their corporate advertisers)

Same with being a doctor....most doctors enjoy what they do and have a passion for it. However, most Doctors (notice how I didn't say pre-meds) know that they have a certain monetary value. It's not about being content with X amount of dollars, it's about recieving their fair market value. Again, market value has many factors, but you cannot compare the value of a low skill woker to a physician. It's stupid and ignorant to do so.

Now do us all a favor and don't post again until your balls drop.

 

[tttaaa]

I was not disputing for cutting salaries to the benefit of health care. I was disputing the fact that premeds/med people will inevitably complain all the time about they monetary quandaries, however things turn out. And yes, I know about what you pointed out with your articles.

 

[Riboflavin]

I was not disputing for cutting salaries to the benefit of health care. I was disputing the fact that premeds/med people will inevitably complain all the time about they monetary quandaries, however things turn out. And yes, I know about what you pointed out with your articles.

Not all the time, but other times they do. The whole point most of us are making is that there is a reason doctors get paid what they do. Much less of that would not "make things turn out" so well. I don't even think any of us are asking for MORE, we just feel we should doctors should get paid their "value." Any more pay-cuts (which most of us are arguing/talking, or in your opinion "complaining" about, and there will be repercussions in the medical field. This of course would effect EVERYONE, not just doctors.

 

[chessknt]

In what field besides medicine would socialization and 20% pay cuts to the primary executors of that field go over well? None, but antitrust prohibit physicians from organizing to fight back, so they are effectively reduced to having to vent on forums since their elected "representatives" sure as **** arent going to listen to them.

 

[DarknightX]

Well if money's what you want you're in the wrong profession.

I'll ask the question again, why? What is inherently wrong about making enough money to be financially satisfied and being a doctor? I have yet to find one person who can argue against this.

No, not because that's what medical schools want to hear but because it's the truth. You should realized that no amount of money can compensate for the sacrifices you'll make. You'll only be truly compensated if you find joy and self-fulfillment in being a doctor.

No, it's not the truth. It is what medical schools want to hear. When you get to medical school, you'll hear them preach about primary care, as if it is some holy grail. Then you'll see most of your classmates with the highest grades and boards scores apply for residencies in dermatology, radiology, and plastic surgery. Why? Because they pay the most. Either that, or there is some extra inherent joy in derm, plastics, and rads that I haven't discovered yet (other than a fat paycheck).

Doctors make enough for the "other stuff", I haven't seen a homeless doctor yet. Also for someone like me who's had struggles his whole life, living modestly would be perfectly fine. It's not about the money it's about being happy, and if money makes you happy find another job because medicine isn't just money.

You have got to be one of the stupidest posters I've ever seen. Your comments might have some merit if you lived in a socialist/communist society where everyone lived on the same amount of money.

I'm sure everyone in this country could survive on $20,000 a year or less...some people even survive on less than $10,000. Whatever you can survive on personally is completely irrelevant. And I highly doubt your argument is sincere. If it is, then I expect any annual income over $40,000 that you make in the future to be donated, since you probably won't need more than this to "survive" and not be homeless.

You have CEO's who make millions of dollars of year and you have professional athletes that do the same. You also have many other workers who have unions who fight for their monetary compensation, including other health care professionals such as nurses. I see nothing wrong with physicians who have a great deal of value to society demanding to compensated fairly. To put it plainly, if you don't look out for yourself, don't expect anyone else to.

I don't know where some pre-meds get the idea that doctors have to be so self sacrificing in terms of income. It's stupid and it's wrong. Future physicians need to be pro-active about their future income and not feel guilty about being properly compensated.

 

[Handy388]

speaking of engineers

When I was in school, over the summer engineers get paid internships that net them over 20k during the summer.

I had to BEG for a research internship that pays nothing, not even transportation (cost about 7 bucks a day), just to be competitive with the other premeds.

The opportunity cost of medicine is HUGE.

 

[Riboflavin]

I'm sure everyone in this country could survive on $20,000 a year or less...some people even survive on less than $10,000. Whatever you can survive on personally is completely irrelevant. And I highly doubt your argument is sincere. If it is, then I expect any annual income over $40,000 that you make in the future to be donated, since you probably won't need more than this to "survive" and not be homeless.

You have CEO's who make millions of dollars of year and you have professional athletes that do the same. You also have many other workers who have unions who fight for their monetary compensation, including other health care professionals such as nurses. I see nothing wrong with physicians who have a great deal of value to society demanding to compensated fairly. To put it plainly, if you don't look out for yourself, don't expect anyone else to.

I don't know where some pre-meds get the idea that doctors have to be so self sacrificing in terms of income. It's stupid and it's wrong. Future physicians need to be pro-active about their future income and not feel guilty about being properly compensated.

So true. 👍 Like I said earlier, "if you can't help yourself, then how will you expect to help others?"

Also, we all know dermatology is Greek for "fake doctor."

 

[Riboflavin]

speaking of engineers

When I was in school, over the summer engineers get paid internships that net them over 20k during the summer.

I had to BEG for a research internship that pays nothing, not even transportation (cost about 7 bucks a day), just to be competitive with the other premeds.

The opportunity cost of medicine is HUGE.

Damn, same thing happened to a friend of mine. She had like a 1 1/5 hour commute every day. That has got to be rough, those jerks!

 

[DarknightX]

. The whole point most of us are making is that there is a reason doctors get paid what they do. Much less of that would not "make things turn out" so well. I don't even think any of us are asking for MORE, we just feel we should doctors should get paid their "value." Any more pay-cuts (which most of us are arguing/talking, or in your opinion "complaining" about, and there will be repercussions in the medical field. This of course would effect EVERYONE, not just doctors.

Yes, exactly...well said.

 

[maceo]

This is incredibly ironic, because really you're missing everyone else's point.

No one in this thread (IIRC) is saying anything about how making money is bad, or even that physicians don't deserve to be compensated adequately. What people are saying is: I value personal satisfaction in a job highly, and to me personal satisfaction has high worth to me in a career I am considering.

Saying "I would be willing to work for So-and-so much" doesn't mean "My job is only worth me being paid So-and-so much." Rather, it means "I would be willing to work for a reduced compensation provided I could be in an environment where I felt fulfilled and accomplished."

That statement is entirely different from the claim that "My rare and valuable skills do not have worth."

Anyhow, all of this is completely besides the point which is that you can't rationally criticize anyone for making their own personal value judgment on what something is worth to themselves because it's just that -- a personal value judgment.

In any case, the world could use more idealism, not less. Being jaded is very, very overrated.

fine. point taken. you love medicine so much that you would do it for 60k. Ok we get it. BUt I dont think you will feel the same way when you are finished. I guarantee it. You are a pre med. You dont know better, thats why you are saying what you are saying. Medicine is a hard job with lots and lots of pitfalls. the liability is HUGE> you cant be paid peanuts for doing it. there is a great book i read about i guess 15 years ago. it was called " M.D. doctors who talk aboutthemselves. BAsically it was a guy (pekkanen) who intereviewed a whole bunch of docs anonymously I remember back then there were some scathing representation of the profession by docs. Ive been meaning to get intouch with the author to ask him to make a updated version of the book. would make for great reading. ANyway, my point is .. you wont feel the same way you feel now. the system will beat every bit of idealism out of your pretty little head.

 

[maceo]

And posts like this makes me want to puke. Honestly.

."

so go puke my man. nobody is stopping you. ANd you are definitely too young to be talking about puking and stuff. you should be happy out gettin ghigh and scoring chicks.

 

[maceo]

Uh... PhD's also go through that hell too. And guess what, the luckiest of them all would probably near 1/3 of your future salary, and get 1/10th of your job security.

"I'm not entitled to earn good money if I go through one of the toughest and most demanding training programs in the professional world?"

Obviously not. An MD even compared his military training as harder than his residency training. Do all military guys end up making the big bucks? No. Do all bio PhD's end up make more than 100k/yr? No.

Let's take a bio phD:

It takes: 4 yrs undergrad, a really good GPA, lots of research/publications, a whole lot of ingenuity, a crazy work ethic when you do your research, a lot of dedication with the 8yrs + of reasearch. If you are intelligent enough, and found something cool enough for you thesis, then you get your PhD (sucks for you otherwise). Guess what? No job security at all. You become a masochist postdoc workalholic, with 20k/yr, for an indefinite amount of time, until hopefully you get tenured. And guess what, once you are tenured, you won't make the big bucks either. I would be surprised to see professors make more than 100k/yr. And most of them, by that time, are 40-45 yrs old if they are lucky to ever be tenured (most PhD's never end up being professors, while most MD's end up being practicing doctors)

But at least, they enjoy their job enough that it's bearable. So must doctors, who are much, much better off.

anybody can become a bio chem (insert major here) PHD.

ITs no where near as grueling as the road to becoming a physician. cant even compare. PHD candidates sit around in the lab, they go to lunch when they want etc. there is no schedule they work out of their homes. Im telling you . its a cake walk. Not to mention it aint hard getting into any of those programs. so stop talking about phds working as hard

 

[maceo]

a freaking rich MD as another cousin.

1)define rich?
2) Im sure that MD is not rich based on a get rich quick scheme.

 

[Riboflavin]

1)define rich?
2) Im sure that MD is not rich based on a get rich quick scheme.

Russ Dalbey's "Winning in the Cash Flow Business!

 

[Gallix23]

Okay, maybe you are missing my point. I am not even going to continue on with this. Read my previous posts, if you haven't already. Plus, saying all you care about is becoming a doctor, and the money has nothing to do with it doesn't earn you any brownie points. But honestly even if people love the idea of being a doctor, you think anybody is going to want to be one if doctors keep losing out on their salary? As much as I want to be a doctor if they started taking bigger pay-cuts, I would choose something else. Call me what you will, but honestly I will have enough to worry about I don't want the fact that I cannot pay off my debt and have to live in a one bedroom apt with my family be apart of it. I don't see why you guys wouldn't want something better. Is it pride? Do you want to be glorified above the rest of use who actually care about making some money? Please, maybe someone can explain it a little better than you guys have been doing.

I can't imagine that the pay cuts would be that enormous. I mean, even if a doctor's salary is cut, it is STILL a salary that is considered extremely high amongst other professions.

I've heard older doctors say that when you reach your 50s and 60s, the money aspect starts to go away and the pride and prestige starts to come into play. Saying that you are a doctor carries weight, much more than that of most other "common" careers.

 

[iA-MD2013]

Please try and keep it civil 🙂

 

[Riboflavin]

I can't imagine that the pay cuts would be that enormous. I mean, even if a doctor's salary is cut, it is STILL a salary that is considered extremely high amongst other professions.

I've heard older doctors say that when you reach your 50s and 60s, the money aspect starts to go away and the pride and prestige starts to come into play. Saying that you are a doctor carries weight, much more than that of most other "common" careers.

Well, yeah, of course when you make it that far and you are up-to-date on all your bills (hopefully!). Though, I was just trying to say they if pay-cuts keep happening and happening who knows what it will be like. For all we know one day is could all go downhill, and that is a good point cause we can't predict the future. Stuff will come up, being prepared and able take it on will be nicer than worrying about how to handle with that "new" obstacle.

Also, check out those links I posted up. One is from last year, but the other is pretty recent. I know it isn't dire, but still...what if it kept happening over and over?

 

[Gallix23]

Well, yeah, of course when you make it that far and you are up-to-date on all your bills (hopefully!). Though, I was just trying to say they if pay-cuts keep happening and happening who knows what it will be like. For all we know one day is could all go downhill, and that is a good point cause we can't predict the future. Stuff will come up, being prepared and able take it on will be nicer than worrying about how to handle with that "new" obstacle.

I know, I just think the panic about the pay cuts that is starting is a little over hyped. The economy will eventually get back on track, given time, and everything will eventually stabilize financially again.

 

[DarknightX]

I can't imagine that the pay cuts would be that enormous. I mean, even if a doctor's salary is cut, it is STILL a salary that is considered extremely high amongst other professions.

I've heard older doctors say that when you reach your 50s and 60s, the money aspect starts to go away and the pride and prestige starts to come into play. Saying that you are a doctor carries weight, much more than that of most other "common" careers.

Again, totally irrelevant. All of you keep mentioning other factors that have to do with "pride" and "job satisfaction".

What I am asking is why should a physician be ok with taking a pay cut? Would any other profession be ok with a pay cut? It doesn't matter what you think you can live on, or how much you love your job.

If they tried to cut nursing pay or teacher's pay, their unions would raise holy hell. However, as physicians, there is some misconception, especially among pre-meds, that it would be ok to take a pay-cut, or that money shouldn't matter to a doctor.

It's not ok, and no physician should stand for that. It doesn't make you a bad doctor or a bad person. It simply forces you to stand up for yourself, like any other professional in this society already does.

 

[Gallix23]

Again, totally irrelevant. All of you keep mentioning other factors that have to do with "pride" and "job satisfaction".

What I am asking is why should a physician be ok with taking a pay cut? Would any other profession be ok with a pay cut? It doesn't matter what you think you can live on, or how much you love your job.

If they tried to cut nursing pay or teacher's pay, their unions would raise holy hell. However, as physicians, there is some misconception, especially among pre-meds, that it would be ok to take a pay-cut, or that money shouldn't matter to a doctor.

It's not ok, and no physician should stand for that. It doesn't make you a bad doctor or a bad person. It simply forces you to stand up for yourself, like any other professional in this society already does.

Why would anyone be alright taking a pay cut? Yes, they suck, but that's life.

I'd much rather take a pay cut as a doctor than as a teacher or something else.

 

[maceo]

I can't imagine that the pay cuts would be that enormous. I mean, even if a doctor's salary is cut, it is STILL a salary that is considered extremely high amongst other professions.

I've heard older doctors say that when you reach your 50s and 60s, the money aspect starts to go away and the pride and prestige starts to come into play. Saying that you are a doctor carries weight, much more than that of most other "common" careers.

I dont tell anyone im a doctor. There is little upside, and i dont wanan give out free medical advice all the time. sure the doctors who are retired now are the doctors who were paid what they were worth in the 70s and 80s. Doctors are truly being squeezed

 

[Gallix23]

I dont tell anyone im a doctor. There is little upside, and i dont wanan give out free medical advice all the time. sure the doctors who are retired now are the doctors who were paid what they were worth in the 70s and 80s. Doctors are truly being squeezed

I dunno, my mother is a nurse and the doctor she works with just got back from a 3 week ski trip in Colorado followed by one week in Florida to play golf. I don't think he's hurting too bad....