Are Physicians Being Squeezed?

[Riboflavin]

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I know, I just think the panic about the pay cuts that is starting is a little over hyped. The economy will eventually get back on track, given time, and everything will eventually stabilize financially again.

I know, it is, but I am just saying theoretically, if you will, it can/could get worse. I think it is something to worry about now, given I'm only a sophomore if I found out tomorrow I could earn just as much being something else, I would. I don't want to get myself so far into debt and worry about giving my children a better life than I had. I'm just staying "cautious" I guess.

 

[DarknightX]

Why would anyone be alright taking a pay cut?

I have no clue, but there are yahoos on this board who would be claim they would be just fine with $60 K per year.

 

[Riboflavin]

I have no clue, but there are yahoos on this board who would be claim they would be just fine with $60 K per year.

Did they miss the one about doctors having a high risk job? How often do you see teachers getting sued?

 

[Gallix23]

I know, it is, but I am just saying theoretically, if you will, it can/could get worse. I think it is something to worry about now, given I'm only a sophomore if I found out tomorrow I could earn just as much being something else, I would. I don't want to get myself so far into debt and worry about giving my children a better life than I had. I'm just staying "cautious" I guess.

I understand where you're coming from, and I look at the debt and stuff with a little trepidation as well. However, I don't think that there would ever be a time where someone would say becoming a physician was the worst decision of their life, and I have never met a physician who wishes they had gone to plumbing school 😉

 

[Gallix23]

I have no clue, but there are yahoos on this board who would be claim they would be just fine with $60 K per year.

Well, then yes that is crazy. Taking a pay cut and still being in 6 digits in one thing, but 60 grand a year is like a teacher's salary.

 

[maceo]

I understand where you're coming from, and I look at the debt and stuff with a little trepidation as well. However, I don't think that there would ever be a time where someone would say becoming a physician was the worst decision of their life, and I have never met a physician who wishes they had gone to plumbing school 😉

Ok well im the first. It was the worst decision of my life. I wish i went to electrician school

 

[Handy388]

what's wrong with making an honest earning from an honest day of work? What's wrong with accumulation of wealth? isn't that what America is all about?

I don't understand why everybody think making money is a "bad thing". Yes, making money alone is a poor reason to go into medicine, but what's wrong with financial stability?

I love helping people, I love science, but I equally love the lifestyle of being financially free.

My parents are both immigrants, they worked hard to create a life where we can go out to grocery shopping and get any food we want or afford to take vacation.

Face it, incredible hardwork goes into the making of a physician, and the reward? well, most physician don't make enough to support a truly luxury lifestyle. I feel that what we are making is fair right now (with primary care provider being paid less than what they worth).

 

[Riboflavin]

I understand where you're coming from, and I look at the debt and stuff with a little trepidation as well. However, I don't think that there would ever be a time where someone would say becoming a physician was the worst decision of their life, and I have never met a physician who wishes they had gone to plumbing school 😉

Well, you have never ran into some of the ones I have, or residents. I know most are being sarcastic or joking. But this made my day:

[Resident walks into Starbucks and notices me and my buddy with a Kaplan book]

Resident: You guys studying for the MCAT?
Me: Yeah, it's been one fun Saturday night.
Resident: Cool, let me give you some advice...TURN BACK! DO NOT, I REPEAT DO NOT BECOME A DOCTOR! You think they studying lightens up...

[While he's talking I'm thinking in my head "Oh, great another narcissistic resident who realized he's in to far now to turn back and hates his life..."]

it never does! You study until the dat you die, forever and ever!

Me: Uhm, thanks?

Later we all talked more and he was a really cool dude. He told us about how is was hard for him because he missed his family a lot, and his father passed away while he was in med school and wasn't around so much. But yeah he said with all the bull**** that went with it, he was pretty happy doing it.

 

[Gallix23]

Ok well im the first. It was the worst decision of my life. I wish i went to electrician school

Could I ask what brand of medicine you are in?

Well, you have never ran into some of the ones I have, or residents. I know most are being sarcastic or joking. But this made my day:

[Resident walks into Starbucks and notices me and my buddy with a Kaplan book]

Resident: You guys studying for the MCAT?
Me: Yeah, it's been one fun Saturday night.
Resident: Cool, let me give you some advice...TURN BACK! DO NOT, I REPEAT DO NOT BECOME A DOCTOR! You think they studying lightens up...

[While he's talking I'm thinking in my head "Oh, great another narcissistic resident who realized he's in to far now to turn back and hates his life..."]

it never does! You study until the dat you die, forever and ever!

Me: Uhm, thanks?

Later we all talked more and he was a really cool dude. He told us about how is was hard for him because he missed his family a lot, and his father passed away while he was in med school and wasn't around so much. But yeah he said with all the bull**** that went with it, he was pretty happy doing it.

Hahah, yeah I mean I don't expect it to be easy, especially during residency years and things, but the feeling of accomplishment must be pretty great once it's all said and done.

 

[WannaBePreMed]

I'll ask the question again, why? What is inherently wrong about making enough money to be financially satisfied and being a doctor? I have yet to find one person who can argue against this.



No, it's not the truth. It is what medical schools want to hear. When you get to medical school, you'll hear them preach about primary care, as if it is some holy grail. Then you'll see most of your classmates with the highest grades and boards scores apply for residencies in dermatology, radiology, and plastic surgery. Why? Because they pay the most. Either that, or there is some extra inherent joy in derm, plastics, and rads that I haven't discovered yet (other than a fat paycheck).




You have got to be one of the stupidest posters I've ever seen. Your comments might have some merit if you lived in a socialist/communist society where everyone lived on the same amount of money.

I'm sure everyone in this country could survive on $20,000 a year or less...some people even survive on less than $10,000. Whatever you can survive on personally is completely irrelevant. And I highly doubt your argument is sincere. If it is, then I expect any annual income over $40,000 that you make in the future to be donated, since you probably won't need more than this to "survive" and not be homeless.

You have CEO's who make millions of dollars of year and you have professional athletes that do the same. You also have many other workers who have unions who fight for their monetary compensation, including other health care professionals such as nurses. I see nothing wrong with physicians who have a great deal of value to society demanding to compensated fairly. To put it plainly, if you don't look out for yourself, don't expect anyone else to.

I don't know where some pre-meds get the idea that doctors have to be so self sacrificing in terms of income. It's stupid and it's wrong. Future physicians need to be pro-active about their future income and not feel guilty about being properly compensated.

Life is about being happy. If being a doctor (people, medicine, diagnosis) makes you happy then you'll be happy as long as you get to practice medicine and receive reasonable pay; 160k seems reasonable for me. However if money is what makes you happy, you'll never be satisfied as a physician because the pursuit of money is endless. You have to look at being a physician as an end in itself and not a mere means to something else. You should take a Philosophy class, some Aristotle would do you well, especially the Allegory of the Cave.

 

[maceo]

Could I ask what brand of medicine you are in?



Hahah, yeah I mean I don't expect it to be easy, especially during residency years and things, but the feeling of accomplishment must be pretty great once it's all said and done.

one would think. but no not really. the sense of accomplishment isnt there for me

 

[WannaBePreMed]

Well, you have never ran into some of the ones I have, or residents. I know most are being sarcastic or joking. But this made my day:

[Resident walks into Starbucks and notices me and my buddy with a Kaplan book]

Resident: You guys studying for the MCAT?
Me: Yeah, it's been one fun Saturday night.
Resident: Cool, let me give you some advice...TURN BACK! DO NOT, I REPEAT DO NOT BECOME A DOCTOR! You think they studying lightens up...

[While he's talking I'm thinking in my head "Oh, great another narcissistic resident who realized he's in to far now to turn back and hates his life..."]

it never does! You study until the dat you die, forever and ever!

Me: Uhm, thanks?

Later we all talked more and he was a really cool dude. He told us about how is was hard for him because he missed his family a lot, and his father passed away while he was in med school and wasn't around so much. But yeah he said with all the bull**** that went with it, he was pretty happy doing it.

He was pretty happy, interesting.

 

[WannaBePreMed]

one would think. but no not really. the sense of accomplishment isnt there for me

Well it's still not to late for electrician school 😉

On a more serious note, is there really no sense of accomplishment what so ever?

 

[Riboflavin]

Life is about being happy. If being a doctor (people, medicine, diagnosis) makes you happy then you'll be happy as long as you get to practice medicine and receive reasonable pay; 160k seems reasonable for me. However if money is what makes you happy, you'll never be satisfied as a physician because the pursuit of money is endless. You have to look at being a physician as an end in itself and not a mere means to something else. You should take a Philosophy class, some Aristotle would do you well, especially the Allegory of the Cave.

Oh, that makes sense now. You're one of those kids who took PHIL 101 and now know the pursuit of happiness! I mean good for you, really, I'm not being sarcastic. I just feel bad when you get that reality check, cause it is going to be bad. Though, I think how you think of happiness is as a whole, when happiness contains so many divisions. You can't look at things as a whole, take chemistry as an example: You think mechanisms can be understood without looking at them form a molecular level? No. If you read up on Aristotle, you should know his views of the "part" compared to the "whole".

 

[Riboflavin]

He was pretty happy, interesting.

From what I heard, yes. But again, you're looking at things too broadly. Sure he said he was happy, he made it to residency. We didn't get too in-depth on talking, for all I know I could've brought up this topic we are all on and he made have started whistling a new tune.

 

[Riboflavin]

Well it's still not to late for electrician school 😉

On a more serious note, is there really no sense of accomplishment what so ever?

I seriously hope that was a joke, and if it was I don't even find it funny. 👎

 

[Gallix23]

I seriously hope that was a joke, and if it was I don't even find it funny. 👎

In the broad scheme of things however, it really isn't too late to make yourself happy. If switching careers could make you happier, then why not do it?

 

[DarknightX]

Life is about being happy. If being a doctor (people, medicine, diagnosis) makes you happy then you'll be happy as long as you get to practice medicine and receive reasonable pay; 160k seems reasonable for me. However if money is what makes you happy, you'll never be satisfied as a physician because the pursuit of money is endless. You have to look at being a physician as an end in itself and not a mere means to something else. You should take a Philosophy class, some Aristotle would do you well, especially the Allegory of the Cave.

Perhaps you should take a critical reading class, because you obviously have absolutely no comprehension about what I'm talking about.

What does anything you just said have to do with any of the points I brought up?

I'm not arguing about physician satisfaction being tied to money. These are two are different issues and are not being discussed in this thread.

You can be the happiest, kindest, most satisfied physician in the world, and I assure you, if you start making less money, you won't like it. Does that mean you are dissatisfied with the job and the tasks it demands in itself? No, you're dissatisfied with the pay, which is a different issue.

The converse is also true...you can be the highest paid physician in the world, and if you hate treating patients, you'll hate the job no matter what.

No where in what I'm saying am I even mentioning job satisfaction...that is a completely different issue that has nothing to do with pay, in my opinion. I am trying to point out the fallacy that because one is satisfied with their job, then they have some obligation to accept less pay; ie because I love medicine, I'd do it for less.

Somehow, in your strange little world, if a doctor complains about his pay, he is ungrateful, selfish, or hates his job. I am simply trying to say there is nothing wrong with being concerned, heck even demanding, terms of income when negotiating in future employment opportunities.

 

[WannaBePreMed]

Oh, that makes sense now. You're one of those kids who took PHIL 101 and now know the pursuit of happiness! I mean good for you, really, I'm not being sarcastic. I just feel bad when you get that reality check, cause it is going to be bad. Though, I think how you think of happiness is as a whole, when happiness contains so many divisions. You can't look at things as a whole, take chemistry as an example: You think mechanisms can be understood without looking at them form a molecular level? No. If you read up on Aristotle, you should know his views of the "part" compared to the "whole".

Yes there are many things in part, that our happiness is comprised of but only those of which that are apart of "the good" which makes the whole of happiness; money doesn't have such a good reputation with being "the good". I think self-fulfillment holds more weight then money does, but hey who cares about self-fulfillment anyway.

 

[WannaBePreMed]

Perhaps you should take a critical reading class, because you obviously have absolutely no comprehension about what I'm talking about.

What does anything you just said have to do with any of the points I brought up?

I'm not arguing about physician satisfaction being tied to money. These are two are different issues and are not being discussed in this thread.

You can be the happiest, kindest, most satisfied physician in the world, and I assure you, if you start making less money, you won't like it. Does that mean you are dissatisfied with the job and the tasks it demands in itself? No, you're dissatisfied with the pay, which is a different issue.

The converse is also true...you can be the highest paid physician in the world, and if you hate treating patients, you'll hate the job no matter what.

No where in what I'm saying am I even mentioning job satisfaction...that is a completely different issue that has nothing to do with pay, in my opinion. I am trying to point out the fallacy that because one is satisfied with their job, then they have some obligation to accept less pay; ie because I love medicine, I'd do it for less.

Somehow, in your strange little world, if a doctor complains about his pay, he is ungrateful, selfish, or hates his job. I am simply trying to say there is nothing wrong with being concerned, heck even demanding, terms of income when negotiating in future employment opportunities.

Here I'll make it simple. If you're satisfied with your job and it makes you happy a pay decrease wouldn't be too big of a deal. Of course there are boundrys and limits that are within reason but I don't think 160k a year is pushing it.

 

[Riboflavin]

U are setting yourself up to be disappointed...I don't get it..you have access to sdn and read all these threads about decreasing reimbursements and medicine not being the way it used to be, but if you could earn as much money doing something else, you would switch right away?
Now your comments here make a lot more sense

Why because I love other things? Read what threads? I love medicine, it is my first priority in education. All I am saying if one day, before I become a doctor 🙂xf🙂, I found out they were paid as much as engineers or teachers, then yes I would definitely changed my mind. I would probably go into something else that I loved doing. I wouldn't want to put myself in a position to where I couldn't make enough to pay for taxes, malpractice, rent, etc easily and then worry about the high risks associated with the job. Like DarknightX said, if you 're not looking out for yourself, don't expect anyone else to. You're not helping anyone, if you can't help yourself (probably the 5th time I've said this) and it is true. Since you guys seem (well, to me at least) to be thinking doctors are what you see on TV take it from this line then:

"Don’t get me wrong. If a guy gets shot or if he has a heart attack and I am physically the closest doctor to him, I will intervene. Shy of that, you can’t. I mean, you just can’t. It’s too much to ask yourself."

You think we're just suppose to not care about our lives so we can help others? What good will that do? You'll run yourself into the ground.

 

[DarknightX]

Here I'll make it simple. If you're satisfied with your job and it makes you happy a pay decrease wouldn't be too big of a deal. Of course there are boundrys and limits that are within reason but I don't think 160k a year is pushing it.

And I'll make it simple for you, it might be easy for you to say taking a slight pay cut is no big deal right now, but after many years and countless hours of work, you will be pissed off at the idea of taking a penny less.

That's why you see all the pre-meds in this thread saying taking a pay-cut is no big deal, and all the residents and attendings saying no freaking way.

 

[Riboflavin]

Yes there are many things in part, that our happiness is comprised of but only those of which that are apart of "the good" which makes the whole of happiness; money doesn't have such a good reputation with being "the good". I think self-fulfillment holds more weight then money does, but hey who cares about self-fulfillment anyway.

So, the money that prepares your children's future, helps pay for vaccines to go to third-world countries, pay for schools, help take care our friends and families fighting in the war, build buildings, grow crops, provide transportation, I can go on and on...money doesn't help then? Money is not evil, it's how it is used that makes it evil.

 

[WannaBePreMed]

So, the money that prepares your children's future, helps pay for vaccines to go to third-world countries, pay for schools, help take care our friends and families fighting in the war, build buildings, grow crops, provide transportation, I can go on and on...money doesn't help then? Money is not evil, it's how it is used that makes it evil.

Money is not always evil. It's also not always good.

And I'll make it simple for you, it might be easy for you to say taking a slight pay cut is no big deal right now, but after many years and countless hours of work, you will be pissed off at the idea of taking a penny less.

That's why you see all the pre-meds in this thread saying taking a pay-cut is no big deal, and all the residents and attendings saying no freaking way.

How about this, when we're both doctors and we get our pay cuts, I'll be self-fulfilled and happy, and you can be angry at the system and unhappy.

There that's the end.

 

[Riboflavin]

Money is not always evil. It's also not always good.

...That's what I said.

 

[Riboflavin]

How about this, when we're both doctors and we get our pay cuts, I'll be self-fulfilled and happy, and you can be angry at the system and unhappy.

There that's the end.

So, what happens when you get sued, and you don't have enough in the bank, and everything you make goes to that person. You better still be happy, or I'll find you!

 

[WannaBePreMed]

So, what happens when you get sued, and you don't have enough in the bank, and everything you make goes to that person. You better still be happy, or I'll find you!

That's a different thread 🙂

 

[Riboflavin]

That's a different thread 🙂

No, I just don't think you can answer it honestly.

 

[DarknightX]

How about this, when we're both doctors and we get our pay cuts, I'll be self-fulfilled and happy, and you can be angry at the system and unhappy.

There that's the end.

Wow, you really just don't understand do you?

I don't want any of us to take a pay cut....that is my whole point. That if every doctor said, "No, I'm not going to take a pay-cut," then it wouldn't happen. Again, for the millionth time....teachers do this all the time with their unions, and so do nurses. Nobody criticizes them for it.

By people like you saying "I have no problem taking a pay cut", you effectively decrease the bargaining power of every other physician. It's not about complaining about the system...it's about standing up to the system...big difference.

Maybe you should ease up on the philosophy and start taking some economics classes.

 

[Riboflavin]

Wow, you really just don't understand do you?

I don't want any of us to take a pay cut....that is my whole point. That if every doctor said, "No, I'm not going to take a pay-cut," then it wouldn't happen. Again, for the millionth time....teachers do this all the time with their unions, and so do nurses. Nobody criticizes them for it.

By people like you saying "I have no problem taking a pay cut", you effectively decrease the bargaining power of every other physician. It's not about complaining about the system...it's about standing up to the system...big difference.

Maybe you should ease up on the philosophy and start taking some economics classes.

👍

 

[WannaBePreMed]

No, I just don't think you can answer it honestly.

I wouldn't be happy about that experience. Overall I'd still be happy.

Wow, you really just don't understand do you?

I don't want any of us to take a pay cut....that is my whole point. That if every doctor said, "No, I'm not going to take a pay-cut," then it wouldn't happen. Again, for the millionth time....teachers do this all the time with their unions, and so do nurses. Nobody criticizes them for it.

By people like you saying "I have no problem taking a pay cut", you effectively decrease the bargaining power of every other physician. It's not about complaining about the system...it's about standing up to the system...big difference.

Maybe you should ease up on the philosophy and start taking some economics classes.

Maybe I should take a economics class.

160k seems reasonable. 5-10 thousand less really isn't that big of a deal, is it? Like I said, as long as it's within reason.


Oh and nobody criticizes the nurses or teachers because they make less than 150k...

 

[Riboflavin]

160k seems reasonable. 5-10 thousand less really isn't that big of a deal, is it? Like I said, as long as it's within reason.


Oh and nobody criticizes the nurses or teachers because they make less than 150k...

Malpractice insurance? Taxes? Food? Rent? Family? Series of unfortunate events? Again, you're looking at the whole instead of the parts...did you really take a philosophy class or just read the back of a "Philosophy for Dummies" book?

When did DarknightX say that?

 

[WannaBePreMed]

Malpractice insurance? Taxes? Food? Rent? Family? Series of unfortunate events? Again, you're looking at the whole instead of the parts...did you really take a philosophy class or just read the back of a "Philosophy for Dummies" book?

When did DarknightX say that?

I'm saying I would be fine and happy.

If you wouldn't then when you're a doctor join DarknightX and protest in front of your hospital about the 10k salary cut while people are dying, pretty simple.

 

[DarknightX]

160k seems reasonable. 5-10 thousand less really isn't that big of a deal, is it? Like I said, as long as it's within reason.


Oh and nobody criticizes the nurses or teachers because they make less than 150k...

Yes, 5-10 thousand doesn't seem like a big deal right now...it's only a 6.2% pay cut if you they cut your salary by 10K on a $160K salary. That doesn't sound so bad, especially to your average pre-med, who hasn't made a significant income.

However, what you are forgetting is the rate of inflation. This is the idea that 1 dollar today is not worth the same as 1 dollar 50 years ago. If you factor inflation (which is usually anywhere from 2-5% per year), you are actually losing about 8%. Which doesn't sound like a lot still.

Except for the fact that that inflation goes up every single year. So in 10 years if you haven't recieved any raises, by factoring in your initial paycut and adjusting for inflation at 2%, you've actually cut your purchasing power by roughly 28% if you factor in your initial paycut. Your purchasing power has now went down by 1/4th.

This is also assuming that your pay doesn't get cut during this time period. This is why unions re-negotiate every so often, because their salaries need to be adjusted every so often.

About nurses and teachers, see my previous posts about value in terms of training. And nursing salaries have risen drastically over the last few years due to their bargaining power (ie demand for nurses).

 

[Riboflavin]

I'm saying I would be fine and happy.

If you wouldn't then when you're a doctor join DarknightX and protest in front of your hospital about the 10k salary cut while people are dying, pretty simple.

First, it is illegal for doctors to do so.

Second, where do you get this idea that I wouldn't do my job because of a pay-cut? We've merely been saying in simplest terms it costs to be a doctor. You think you're some saint because you believe that way? Get off you high horse, buddy. How do you know I won't be happy? Did I say I wouldn't be? No, I never said that. Again, personal fulfillment and salary are on two different wavelengths (like DarknightX said). You obviously aren't grasping any of this.

 

[Forthegood]

I'm a senior in high school, but I work my butt off in restaurants and mowing lawns and help out my parents (who are doing the same kind of jobs I am doing). So no, we are nowhere near 60k/yr. And hitting 80 hrs/week? That's routine for us. And I know some of my relatives who have been cooks, make 15k/yr, chopped off their fingers in their jobs, and can't pay for medical bills anyway... that's something to complain about!

Can someone ban this clown? Seriously. I was in tears laughing when I read that first sentence. Perfect.

My experiences with postdocs/PhD's differ markedly. Doing research is most often, much, much more demanding than what you are saying. If it were easy, then why don't you solve for the 3-D structure for that random new protein I found in Nature last time?

As I finish my nights work on a current publication on interactions of large biological molecules, I get on SDN and read this. Lovely, you truely no nothing about anything. Here goes... what I do on a day to day basis is NOTHING compared to physician internship/residencies. Not even medical school. Seriously, research is all intellectual, and it is relatively laid back. Please do not comment on something you know nothing about. At this point, it is pretty obvious that well will never run dry. Medschool/PGY/Residency/Practice is harder in every aspect and not appreciated by anyone in the way it should be.

"Free and even provide a stipend if you work as a TA"

So does Residency. And many PhD's take longer than medical schooling. Postdocs can last even longer. And the attrition rate is much higher than what you get through med school/residency.

As a former TA, the pay is excellent, the work is EASY, and the hours are fantastic. For the time, i made well over 45 an hour, doing nothing but giving a lecture with no preparation (its very simple stuff). Residency (though I have not walked the road) is apparently none of these aforementioned. Not even close. Perhaps this is why we joke about graduate students as "gradual" students. Life is good, some take 7 years to get their PhD because of their choice in projects or their own incompetency. Trying to compare these two is so stupid I can't help but feel bad for you. Please stop this. After seeing the PhD world firsthand, you are making me laugh so hard my face hurts.

 

[WannaBePreMed]

Yes, 5-10 thousand doesn't seem like a big deal right now...it's only a 6.2% pay cut if you they cut your salary by 10K on a $160K salary. That doesn't sound so bad, especially to your average pre-med, who hasn't made a significant income.

However, what you are forgetting is the rate of inflation. This is the idea that 1 dollar today is not worth the same as 1 dollar 50 years ago. If you factor inflation (which is usually anywhere from 2-5% per year), you are actually losing about 8%. Which doesn't sound like a lot still.

Except for the fact that that inflation goes up every single year. So in 10 years if you haven't recieved any raises, by factoring in your initial paycut and adjusting for inflation at 2%, you've actually cut your purchasing power by roughly 28% if you factor in your initial paycut. Your purchasing power has now went down by 1/4th.

This is also assuming that your pay doesn't get cut during this time period. This is why unions re-negotiate every so often, because their salaries need to be adjusted every so often.

About nurses and teachers, see my previous posts about value in terms of training. And nursing salaries have risen drastically over the last few years due to their bargaining power (ie demand for nurses).

28% isn't within reason, I gave a bad example.

Back to the theory behind the cuts; as long as it's within reason.

 

[WannaBePreMed]

First, it is illegal for doctors to do so.

Second, where do you get this idea that I wouldn't do my job because of a pay-cut? We've merely been saying in simplest terms it costs to be a doctor. You think you're some saint because you believe that way? Get off you high horse, buddy. How do you know I won't be happy? Did I say I wouldn't be? No, I never said that. Again, personal fulfillment and salary are on two different wavelengths (like DarknightX said). You obviously aren't grasping any of this.

Pay cuts aren't fair we get it. My point is, move on with your life. It's about fulfillment.

 

[Riboflavin]

28% isn't within reason, I gave a bad example.

Back to the theory behind the cuts; as long as it's within reason.

Oh, now 28% is thrown your way and you change it to "within reason." Too bad you, me, or anyone else don't have control on that really. Add in the malpractice insurance now, which varies, and also taxes, which also varies.

 

[WannaBePreMed]

Oh, now 28% is thrown your way and you change it to "within reason." Too bad you, me, or anyone else has control on that really. Add in the malpractice insurance now, which varies, and also taxes, which also varies.

This is unnecessary.


I'm sure we both have made our points. There's no point in this back and forth mess.

 

[Cp22kjer]

PhD's go all through those hellish years too, work their butt offs, have to exhibit incredible intellectual ingenuity, and end up in a 20k/yr postdoc job..............

You've clearly fallen off your rocker my man. It's good to have opinions on certain matters but your posts are so off base. Here's to hoping you're just trolling.

 

[Riboflavin]

This is unnecessary.


I'm sure we both have made our points. There's no point in this back and forth mess.

I know, but as strange as it sounds, I worry about people that have this mentality. While it is good to have, you can't say for sure you will always be happy. You have to be expected to know about everything that could/might happen, or else when it happens its going to suck even more. You don't know what can happen in the future.

 

[WannaBePreMed]

I know, but as strange as it sounds, I worry about people that have this mentality. While it is good to have, you can't say for sure you will always be happy. You have to be expected to know about everything that could/might happen, or else when it happens its going to suck even more. You don't know what can happen in the future.

I agree no one knows what's going to happen in the future but I just like to be positive.

It's also important to be like you and be cautious of the future possibilities too whether positive or negative.

 

[Riboflavin]

I agree no one knows what's going to happen in the future but I just like to be positive. It's also important to be like you and be cautious of the future possibilities, positive or negative.

You should know being too positive can lead to a big, big let down. Just warning you.

 

[WannaBePreMed]

You should know being too positive can lead to a big, big let down. Just warning you.

Yeah, it's hard but I find away to keep chugging along.

 

[niranjan162]

28% isn't within reason, I gave a bad example.

Back to the theory behind the cuts; as long as it's within reason.

Theres a difference between being positive and being glib.

First of all you talk about how you would be so happy being a doctor, but you've never been a doctor so how could you really know what its like and that it will make you happy?

Following a doctor around for a couple hours doesnt give you an idea of what its really like, and it certainly doesnt give you an idea or appreciation of how hard the training is.

Secondly, your example wasnt bad, your reasoning is what is poor. You thought 5-10k was reasonable or within limits, but your view is obviously so simplistic its not counting other factors. Change the numbers to whatever you want and you will still face the same problems.

Doctors salaries are one of the only professions losing ground to inflation every year.

idealism is blissful ignorace. Its easy to be positive and upbeat about something when youre not actually doing it.

 

[Slack3r]

Doctor's also have very low ceilings. While you start out of med school with a good/great salary (most often times $100k+, and even more for specialties), you don't improve too much over time. AND you spent a decade getting to that point, at which you won't improve.

Your business/engineering/law/whatever friends, on the other hand, started out of college with job offers ranging from $40-60k. Peanuts, eh? Unfortunately (for us MD's, fortunate for them), most of those careers have virtually no ceiling. The 4 years of med school you spent losing money + the residency (3-6, depending on specialty) you spent making near minimum wage means they are leaps and bounds ahead of you by the time you're a practicing physician. In 7-10 years, your business friends are in management/becoming partners. These salaries can range from $200k into the millions depending on the business.

Problem with medicine is, there's a (relatively low) ceiling. An all-star in business becomes partner/CFO/CEO/miscellaneous executive position and makes (potentially) millions. You could be the best primary care physician in the country, but let's face it, you're never going to scratch the type of salaries available in other fields.

Now, medicine does have a redeeming quality. You're basically guaranteed 6 figures, at least in our current climate of reimbursement. You have accountants that work 20 years and still pull <$100k, but even lowly PCP's will make 6 figures. There are no guarantees in other fields like medicine, and I doubt medicine will ever lose that redeeming quality (as far as money goes), but there are also very few opportunities to maximize earning potential in medicine that are available to your business/law/engineering friends. But let's face it, everyone gets rich investing anyway, and that 6 figure salary would allow for some decent investing power.

 

[Law2Doc]

If all thats true then boy did you screw up and you have no one to blame but yourself, becuase you are the wrong end of EVERY distribution at EVERY step of the way...

Sure, but there will be thousands of people who find themselves in a similar, if not this exact, situation every year. It's easy to say "you have nobody to blame but yourself", but honestly if you need to borrow money to go to school, if the school you end up getting into isn't cheap, if the specialty you like (or the ones your board scores dictate) isn't that lucrative and if for job or family reasons you end up in a high cost of living area, then this is the situation you have. Saying -- it's your own fault for going to an expensive school and choosing a less lucrative field isn't exactly fair. Not everybody can go to a state school and not everybody can do derm.

The average borrowing in med school is about $160k and rising. Every private med school has some folks who have borrowed in the $200k - $260k range. And tuition debt is going up each year. In the near term $300k might not be unheard of. Student loan consolidation/interest rates are bad right now; that's not exactly a figure you have any control over. Reimbursements (and with them salaries) are going down, and doctors are finding that they need to either work longer hours to earn the same as prior years, or they lose income.

Thus, that half (or 40% or whatever you want to concede is at the low end) who is averaging at $150k or below is going to be living very tight if they borrowed for school. There will be whole segments of the medical community who are going to be living paycheck to paycheck.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
Now, medicine does have a redeeming quality. You're basically guaranteed 6 figures, at least in our current climate of reimbursement. You have accountants that work 20 years and still pull <$100k, but even lowly PCP's will make 6 figures. There are no guarantees in other fields like medicine, and I doubt medicine will ever lose that redeeming quality (as far as money goes), but there are also very few opportunities to maximize earning potential in medicine that are available to your business/law/engineering friends. But let's face it, everyone gets rich investing anyway, and that 6 figure salary would allow for some decent investing power.

Agree with your ceiling concept, but not this last paragraph. There are no guarantees in life. But I would also suggest that $100k to be earned in 10 years is worth a lot less than $100k earned today. The time value of money, the first law of finance, is at play. Reduced to net present value, $100k in the future isn't worth $100k. In real, today's dollars, it's probably less than that person earning "peanuts" you referenced earlier in your discussion.

Think of it like an annuity. If you win lotto, they will pay you something like $250k lump sum today or $1,000,000 over 15 years. Do they care which you pick? No. Why? Because it's the same amount of money. They are going to earmark that same amount of money, either way. You have to look at physician incomes the same way. Your friends will come out of college and those who get lucrative jobs are going to get their "lump sum" amounts each year starting with year 1. You will be getting a much larger figure, but not for a decade. Guess what -- under the laws of finance, it's often going to be about the same. The only difference is that you are going to also borrow a ton on top. So you are SOL.

As for the notion of making money via investing in your last sentence, again giving others a decade long head start obviates any benefit of having a higher income later. This is going to be especially true in the current economy, because once they recession is resolved, and the next economic boom starts, you will be broke in residency eating Ramen, while your college buddy who started at his $50k/year job 5 years ago is now a senior vp of marketing earning $90k and able to partake in the boom. You will see many college classmates get rich while you are a resident. Happens to everyone, but will absolutely happen to folks starting in the next few years because after every extreme downturn, there are folks who get rich as the economy bounces back. Just my two cents. Don't forget the time value of money. $100k isn't $100k unless you are getting it today. If you are going to have to wait a decade you really should think of it as more like $60k. If folks don't understand this basic concept, I guarantee someone shrewd is going to take all of your money somewhere down the road.

 

[Depakote]