Are Pre-Meds Altruistic

[cthorburn]

---

Members do not see this ad.

There is a very big school of philosophy behind the validity of altruism. The argument is usually that a) you do good things because it feels good or you'd feel bad not helping, which boils down to hedonism and/or as already mentioned b) you do good things for evolutionary reasons. If anybody here can come up with solid evidence that altruism is or isn't possessed by anyone, inc premeds, congrats, because you'll shortly be getting lots of attention for solving an ages-old, much examined problem. See also: Problem of evil, free will, the hard problem of consciousness, etc

Its an interesting topic to think about. If you perform an apparently altruistic act but you derive emotional satisfaction from it is that still altruism? In a way you were performing that act for your own emotional benefit.

 

[lifetothefullest]

Its an interesting topic to think about. If you perform an apparently altruistic act but you derive emotional satisfaction from it is that still altruism? In a way you were performing that act for your own emotional benefit.

It'd be interesting, then, to ask why you're deriving emotional satisfaction from the act, especially because our brains are shaped by conditioning. Something that's "selfish" would conceivably be rewarded with the warm fuzzy feelings inside because those type of acts help you survive so they're positively reinforced. There are two possibilities: 1) there is a selfish reason for the altruism but our brains just haven't thought of the reason yet or 2) the act is really altruistic and you are truly an exception to the rule.

 

[Planes2Doc]

I've been trying to answer this question ever since I joined SDN... Here is one of my posts from a thread from 2012:

People get all up in arms when they hear about airlines or doctors talking about making money. I used to work in the airline industry, and I heard so many complaints when airlines would put in new fees in order to make money. Somehow people didn't realize that airlines were businesses, and they needed to make money.

Fast-forwarding to pre-med, I learned that we generally had to show our "altruistic" side to the ADCOMs, and present ourselves as people that pretty much want to work for free. I thought this was just for show until breakfast with classmates this morning...

There was a fellow classmate who was saying that she knows a physician who drives a Bentley and lives in a large house. She then proceeded to say that doctors should not make that much money. I was in absolute shock! attachFull190685 Was she serious? I thought that this mentality disappeared once people got into medical school, but I guess I was wrong? I don't understand where this is coming from.

If you were in any other profession, you would be considered an absolute IDIOT for ever saying something like this. I hear people talking all the time about their friends who graduated from T14 law schools and are now making big bucks, or their friends on Wall Street who are making money in the hundreds of thousands range. Can you imagine the following happening at a law firm interview:

Interviewer: Well we are very impressed with you, and would like to offer you a job here! We will start you at $300,000 a year.
Applicant: That's great! But $300,000 a year is way too much. I would feel wrong taking it. I will only take the job if I get $150,000.
Interviewer: Great! We'll see you next Monday.

If you think the above situation sounds ludicrous, then why do people believe that this is what physicians should honestly be doing? Why is it that people believe that doctors should be working for free? We are giving up years of our lives so that we can go and help others for the rest of our lives. Why should we not have a right to expect a decent amount of compensation? There are so many people out there, especially celebrities, that contribute NOTHING to society. They make millions of dollars, and no one makes a peep. But all of a sudden, you see a doctor in a Ferrari, and all hell breaks loose! attachFull190686

It's even more frustrating when your fellow MEDICAL STUDENTS are holding this opinion. I didn't think that anyone would ever say that they deserve to make less money. If they really have an altruistic nature, then why not spend time on weekends working at a free clinic or doing mission trips around the world? That's a good way to give back. But would someone who says that "doctors make too much" actually request to make a lower salary? This is just beyond comprehension. So what are YOUR experiences with students at your school? Do you see people like this? If you do, then how does it make you feel? Do you actually feel this way? I seriously thought the whole "I love working for free because I'm the next Mother Teresa" song and dance for ADCOMs was over once someone had an acceptance. I guess not. I just think it's plain wrong to villainize doctors for wanting to make money. We should seriously stand up for ourselves, especially with all of the sacrifices that we make to do this! What do you guys think?

And on top of that, I recently went to see my primary care physician to address a problem. He was spot on with the diagnosis, and everything went well. So yes, that was ultimately the purpose of my visit. I had a problem, he addressed it, and I felt better. Was I there to go out with a friend? No. Did it matter what his intentions were when he entered the room? No. Did I care whether he was there to help people or to make money to finance nice things? No. Did I care what he does on weekends; whether he is volunteering in free clinics or screwing hookers in Vegas? No. All of these things are completely irrelevant. In fact, when is the last time you looked at a physician's bio, and saw the volunteer work that they take part in? Do people even care? If the the general public actually cared about one's altruism, then Microsoft would still be far ahead of Apple, since Bill Gates is one of the most charitable people in the world; while the late Steve Jobs was well-known to not be charitable.

Ultimately, whether a physician is altruistic or not should be completely irrelevant to anything. Also, whether someone is a nice person or not is not dependent on the number of volunteer activities and hours the accumulate. None of my friends take part in volunteer work, and none of that makes them bad people. Thus, "altruism" is a completely irrelevant method of seeing whether someone will be a good physician or not.

 

[touchpause13]

Can we bring Streampaw back, she was way better than this.

against all odds

 

[DubVille]

I've been trying to answer this question ever since I joined SDN... Here is one of my posts from a thread from 2012:

People get all up in arms when they hear about airlines or doctors talking about making money. I used to work in the airline industry, and I heard so many complaints when airlines would put in new fees in order to make money. Somehow people didn't realize that airlines were businesses, and they needed to make money.

Fast-forwarding to pre-med, I learned that we generally had to show our "altruistic" side to the ADCOMs, and present ourselves as people that pretty much want to work for free. I thought this was just for show until breakfast with classmates this morning...

There was a fellow classmate who was saying that she knows a physician who drives a Bentley and lives in a large house. She then proceeded to say that doctors should not make that much money. I was in absolute shock! attachFull190685 Was she serious? I thought that this mentality disappeared once people got into medical school, but I guess I was wrong? I don't understand where this is coming from.

If you were in any other profession, you would be considered an absolute IDIOT for ever saying something like this. I hear people talking all the time about their friends who graduated from T14 law schools and are now making big bucks, or their friends on Wall Street who are making money in the hundreds of thousands range. Can you imagine the following happening at a law firm interview:

Interviewer: Well we are very impressed with you, and would like to offer you a job here! We will start you at $300,000 a year.
Applicant: That's great! But $300,000 a year is way too much. I would feel wrong taking it. I will only take the job if I get $150,000.
Interviewer: Great! We'll see you next Monday.

If you think the above situation sounds ludicrous, then why do people believe that this is what physicians should honestly be doing? Why is it that people believe that doctors should be working for free? We are giving up years of our lives so that we can go and help others for the rest of our lives. Why should we not have a right to expect a decent amount of compensation? There are so many people out there, especially celebrities, that contribute NOTHING to society. They make millions of dollars, and no one makes a peep. But all of a sudden, you see a doctor in a Ferrari, and all hell breaks loose! attachFull190686

It's even more frustrating when your fellow MEDICAL STUDENTS are holding this opinion. I didn't think that anyone would ever say that they deserve to make less money. If they really have an altruistic nature, then why not spend time on weekends working at a free clinic or doing mission trips around the world? That's a good way to give back. But would someone who says that "doctors make too much" actually request to make a lower salary? This is just beyond comprehension. So what are YOUR experiences with students at your school? Do you see people like this? If you do, then how does it make you feel? Do you actually feel this way? I seriously thought the whole "I love working for free because I'm the next Mother Teresa" song and dance for ADCOMs was over once someone had an acceptance. I guess not. I just think it's plain wrong to villainize doctors for wanting to make money. We should seriously stand up for ourselves, especially with all of the sacrifices that we make to do this! What do you guys think?

And on top of that, I recently went to see my primary care physician to address a problem. He was spot on with the diagnosis, and everything went well. So yes, that was ultimately the purpose of my visit. I had a problem, he addressed it, and I felt better. Was I there to go out with a friend? No. Did it matter what his intentions were when he entered the room? No. Did I care whether he was there to help people or to make money to finance nice things? No. Did I care what he does on weekends; whether he is volunteering in free clinics or screwing hookers in Vegas? No. All of these things are completely irrelevant. In fact, when is the last time you looked at a physician's bio, and saw the volunteer work that they take part in? Do people even care? If the the general public actually cared about one's altruism, then Microsoft would still be far ahead of Apple, since Bill Gates is one of the most charitable people in the world; while the late Steve Jobs was well-known to not be charitable.

Ultimately, whether a physician is altruistic or not should be completely irrelevant to anything. Also, whether someone is a nice person or not is not dependent on the number of volunteer activities and hours the accumulate. None of my friends take part in volunteer work, and none of that makes them bad people. Thus, "altruism" is a completely irrelevant method of seeing whether someone will be a good physician or not.

You had a career before and have real world experience. Most premeds don't and so far their opinions are influenced by professors who operate in the academic realm. Just wait until a few months into clinicals and that classmate will be singing a different tune. She will probably go into derm or plastics (and there is nothing wrong with that.)

Nothing wrong with leaning left or anything, but the "acceptance" of lower pay is ludicrous. I feel like it's an internal bartering/prayer to think "if I can just get into med school/_____ specialty I'd be willing to make less." It gets repeated so long and by so many they start to believe it.

 

[efle]

You had a career before and have real world experience. Most premeds don't and so far their opinions are influenced by professors who operate in the academic realm. Just wait until a few months into clinicals and that classmate will be singing a different tune. She will probably go into derm or plastics (and there is nothing wrong with that.)

Nothing wrong with leaning left or anything, but the "acceptance" of lower pay is ludicrous. I feel like it's an internal bartering/prayer to think "if I can just get into med school/_____ specialty I'd be willing to make less." It gets repeated so long and by so many they start to believe it.

It's bizarre that it's even expected of physicians to work themselves half to death in the most life-saving specialties to bring this sort of help people vs lifestyle into question. In Scandinavia doctors of all specialties work <40 hours a week (plus more vacation time) and derm is one of the least desired specialties, go figure!

 

[Spinach Dip]

Planes2Doc: One of my favorite posters on this site.

BTW, my favorite quote from you comes from a year or two ago. I think it was: I always hear premeds asking "how can I make myself look better"--never "how can I help more people"

 

[efle]

Planes2Doc: One of my favorite posters on this site.

BTW, my favorite quote from you comes from a year or two ago. I think it was: I always hear premeds asking "how can I make myself look better"--never "how can I help more people"

Haven't we repeatedly established on SDN that going into medicine actually isn't the way to help the most people to the greatest degree? True highly capable altruists would probably end up in policy or international relief and aid orgs. But I like his points too

 

[lifetothefullest]

Haven't we repeatedly established on SDN that going into medicine actually isn't the way to help the most people to the greatest degree? True highly capable altruists would probably end up in policy or international relief and aid orgs. But I like his points too

One of the reasons I turned from policy actually was because it was so so difficult to help people. You might make progress but that could easily be undone a month later by someone else. For instance, Obamacare is now in place but a GOP Congress and/or President could undo all of that in a year. It's very frustrating because you make less of an impact unless you have exclusive access to those in the upper echelons of power. But the catch is, if you do get your idea translated into sound policy, then you do impact more people.

I think that the concept behind Doctors Without Borders is excellent and you can really make an impact there. But as a physician, you likely won't ever make a huge impact. That's the trade-off. You can really help individuals and that sort of aid is not reversible whereas through policy, you can help a lot of people but whether or not that policy makes it depends on political climate, etc.

 

[efle]

One of the reasons I turned from policy actually was because it was so so difficult to help people. You might make progress but that could easily be undone a month later by someone else. For instance, Obamacare is now in place but a GOP Congress and/or President could undo all of that in a year. It's very frustrating because you make less of an impact unless you have exclusive access to those in the upper echelons of power. But the catch is, if you do get your idea translated into sound policy, then you do impact more people.

I think that the concept behind Doctors Without Borders is excellent and you can really make an impact there. But as a physician, you likely won't ever make a huge impact. That's the trade-off. You can really help individuals and that sort of aid is not reversible whereas through policy, you can help a lot of people but whether or not that policy makes it depends on political climate, etc.

An interesting argument but more of a critique of my stated alternatives than the low relative altruism of physicianship. I suspect there are many jobs which let you do more direct and irreversible benefit than most docs can on a daily basis, like what a lot of non-medically trained red cross personnel can do (eg bringing food to starving refugees).

 

[lifetothefullest]

An interesting argument but more of a critique of my stated alternatives than the low relative altruism of physicianship. I suspect there are many jobs which let you do more direct and irreversible benefit than most docs can on a daily basis, like what a lot of non-medically trained red cross personnel can do (eg bringing food to starving refugees).

Of course. One could make the argument that Habitat for Humanity does a lot more for a lot more people than Doctors without Borders do. But that's talking about altruism at a very broad level. I think it's more interesting to talk about altruism in a more directed sense because everybody can bring food to refugees but not everybody can stop a refugee from dying from a pneumothorax. The latter takes years and years of training and by its very nature, it can only result in what you would call "low" relative altruism. What I mean is that the question shouldn't be "what type of position can help the greatest number of people in any way" but rather "what type of position can help the greatest number of people medically."

In that case, while the physician cannot save a great number of people from starvation, that task can be done by virtually any volunteer, no skills required. On the other hand, when you ask who can save a great number of people from strokes, the answer is the physician. Sure, the doctor is saving maybe fifty stroke victims a year versus the volunteer food guy saving a hundred victims a day, but that's a very utilitarian way of looking at things. It doesn't mean that just because the doctor saves fewer people each year, he/she is less altruistic than the volunteer food relief guy. You can also look at it in terms of alternatives. You have a hundred hungry refugees and two volunteers. One is a doctor, one is the volunteer food distributor. Volunteer food guy refuses to help. What's the alternative? The doctor can go and hand out the food - no biggie, nobody dies. What if the doctor refuses to help even a single sick refugee? Refugee dies. Volunteer is helpless.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Planes2Doc: One of my favorite posters on this site.

BTW, my favorite quote from you comes from a year or two ago. I think it was: I always hear premeds asking "how can I make myself look better"--never "how can I help more people"

Thanks so much! 🙂 Yes that quote is very true for this thread!