Are there any residencies I *certainly* can't get into as a DO?

[FutureDoctor5000]

I've read that integrated plastics had a 0% match rate for DOs last year. Would that make it a "certainly can't" residency?

Nope 2 DO's matched Integrated Plastics last year(U Missouri and CCF), I will say that plastics and I6 CT and Neurosurgery(little less harder due to former AOA spots) are the hardest for DO's with match rates in the 30's and 40's or even lower depending on the year. The MD match rates also lower obviously compared to most other specialties even competitive ones. In other competitive stuff like derm, ortho, uro, ent etc the DO and MD match rates are atleast comparable. Its a moot point because theres only like 180 total IP spots, its very difficult regardless if you are USMD or DO....

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[Angus Avagadro]

I think a couple years ago someone from PCOM matched integrated plastics at UPenn.

Again, any specialty is possible from a DO school. But certain programs in just about any specialty will never recruit a DO.

This is true. My former university's IM program has never taken a DO and never will as I have been told.

 

[diehappy]

This is true. My former university's IM program has never taken a DO and never will as I have been told.

I mean they'll have to because that's part of the conditions of the merger. If they're discriminating against DO's I think someday they'll get penalized.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I mean they'll have to because that's part of the conditions of the merger. If they're discriminating against DO's I think someday they'll get penalized.

Yea eventually they will, it's only a matter of time. I mean even Yale, UTSW, Brown has taken DO in its IM program. Vandy has interviewed DO's. Can't think of more ivory tower or brand name programs than that in IM. These few state university programs that just refuse to take qualified DO's are just being stupid at this point lol.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

I mean they'll have to because that's part of the conditions of the merger. If they're discriminating against DO's I think someday they'll get penalized.

No it wasn’t “conditions of the merger”…. Programs are not obligated to consider DOs in any way, shape, or form.

 

[diehappy]

No it wasn’t “conditions of the merger”…. Programs are not obligated to consider DOs in any way, shape, or form.

100% they have to according to acgme discrimination policies. Practically, everyone is still getting used to DOs but technically every residency program has to accept the comlex. In the future the programs that refuse to consider DOs will definitely get called out and will be pressured to change.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

100% they have to according to acgme discrimination policies. Practically, everyone is still getting used to DOs but technically every residency program has to accept the comlex. In the future the programs that refuse to consider DOs will definitely get called out and will be pressured to change.

I mean, this is straight up delusional thinking. DOs aren’t some protected class by anti-discrimination laws and rules. It’s part of your academic profile and it is 100% within the right of any program to use your academic profile as a discriminator when comparing you to other applicants. DO schools don’t even have the same accreditation body, that fact alone justifies any bias or discrimination against any DO applicant. These programs get highly qualified applicants every single year and the reality is most DOs simply can’t measure up.

And no they don’t have to accept COMLEX, despite the AOA and NBOME’s squawking. COMLEX is a joke of an exam and if I’m ever a PD I will automatically eliminate any DO app that doesn’t have a USMLE S1 and 2, and I’m a DO.

This is the bed you make when you go to a DO school. Now yes people can match well from a DO school as is evidenced every single year, but the bias will always exist as long as the AOA continues to claim we are somehow equal but also separate and distinct.

 

[Doctoscope]

I've got a question about the "DO disadvantage" in general for the DO residents/students.

I've recently shadowed a neurologist and a PM&R doctor, and I found their work/what I've seen to be absolutely fascinating, and I'm very interested in pursuing these fields if I'm able to matriculate.

I'm a nontrad with a pretty ugly academic record, and it's more likely for me to end up at a DO school than an MD school (which I have no problem with).

I understand neuro/PM&R are fairly DO friendly fields; but, do DO students still have to outperform the average MD student to these fields to be at an even footing? Can the average DO student with similar stats as the average MD student for these fields still reliably match (any solid program, ignoring "brand name" academic institutions)?

Watching the neurologist I shadowed at work has been incredibly motivating, and it's definitely something I'm highly interested in if I'm able to gain an acceptance in the next cycle.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I mean, this is straight up delusional thinking. DOs aren’t some protected class by anti-discrimination laws and rules. It’s part of your academic profile and it is 100% within the right of any program to use your academic profile as a discriminator when comparing you to other applicants. DO schools don’t even have the same accreditation body, that fact alone justifies any bias or discrimination against any DO applicant. These programs get highly qualified applicants every single year and the reality is most DOs simply can’t measure up.

And no they don’t have to accept COMLEX, despite the AOA and NBOME’s squawking. COMLEX is a joke of an exam and if I’m ever a PD I will automatically eliminate any DO app that doesn’t have a USMLE S1 and 2, and I’m a DO.

This is the bed you make when you go to a DO school. Now yes people can match well from a DO school as is evidenced every single year, but the bias will always exist as long as the AOA continues to claim we are somehow equal but also separate and distinct.

Bro i appreciate all your input on this, but how do you possibly have THIS MUCH time to be quarreling about this stuff on SDN in your intern year of surgery residency? I see you commenting on nearly every post of every DO/MD/Surgery thread like ever. Once I am in residency I dont think I would ever go on this site or have the time to think about this BS stuff haha

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I've got a question about the "DO disadvantage" in general for the DO residents/students.

I've recently shadowed a neurologist and a PM&R doctor, and I found their work/what I've seen to be absolutely fascinating, and I'm very interested in pursuing these fields if I'm able to matriculate.

I'm a nontrad with a pretty ugly academic record, and it's more likely for me to end up at a DO school than an MD school (which I have no problem with).

I understand neuro/PM&R are fairly DO friendly fields; but, do DO students still have to outperform the average MD student to these fields to be at an even footing? Can the average DO student with similar stats as the average MD student for these fields still reliably match (any solid program, ignoring "brand name" academic institutions)?

Watching the neurologist I shadowed at work has been incredibly motivating, and it's definitely something I'm highly interested in if I'm able to gain an acceptance in the next cycle.

Totally specialty and program dependent, low tier programs and former AOA programs you wont have to "out perform" any USMD. In PMR I dont think you have to outperform USMD. In surgical specialties and subspecialties you will need a higher step score and more research, but you will be interviewing with USMD's 5-10 points lower than you, and have less research than you. Not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things. You shouldn't worry about this USMD or DO BS and first just try to gain an acceptance at a medical school.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Bro i appreciate all your input on this, but how do you possibly have THIS MUCH time to be quarreling about this stuff on SDN in your intern year of surgery residency? I see you commenting on nearly every post of every DO/MD/Surgery thread like ever. Once I am in residency I dont think I would ever go on this site or have the time to think about this BS stuff haha

Lol. Even surgery residency isn’t 100% go go every minute of every day. We do actually get days off, and it takes time to turn ORs over lol.

I care because I’ve been around here a long time and people deserve to know what lies ahead of them. I have serious issues with the DO leadership organizations and view them as nothing more than scam artists who have no one’s wellbeing in mind outside of their bottom line. I want students to be motivated to rise above all of that and be successful, not have their lives and goals ruined by the lies they get fed from the AOA and their admins.

Edit: I also love surgery and love talking about it lol, so that’s why I post in all of those threads.

 

[Ho0v-man]

100% they have to according to acgme discrimination policies. Practically, everyone is still getting used to DOs but technically every residency program has to accept the comlex. In the future the programs that refuse to consider DOs will definitely get called out and will be pressured to change.

Oh sweet summer child…

You’ll never be able to prove that the applicants they interviewed/matched were inferior to the DO applicants. There’s NOTHING in the merger agreement that magically makes DOs equivalent to MDs. Absolutely nothing will happen to these programs. You’re living in a fantasy land.

 

[diehappy]

Oh sweet summer child…

You’ll never be able to prove that the applicants they interviewed/matched were inferior to the DO applicants. There’s NOTHING in the merger agreement that magically makes DOs equivalent to MDs. Absolutely nothing will happen to these programs. You’re living in a fantasy land.

I never said it was going to be easy to change mindsets, especially with the older generation. But you guys seem so defeatist that you don't even the acknowledge the possibility of change. It's the same thing with discriminatory hiring. Is it hard to prove or hard to change? Yes and it might take 10 years or longer and it probably needs to start with bigger institutions. But if PDs are going around saying well never hire DOs or never interview them, they'll get called out on it as DOs get more recognition. There is precedent that AOA has brought legal action already against residency programs to acknowledge equal consideration for DOs. In practice, I know it'll take some time.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I never said it was going to be easy to change mindsets, especially with the older generation. But you guys seem so defeatist that you don't even the acknowledge the possibility of change. It's the same thing with discriminatory hiring. Is it hard to prove or hard to change? Yes and it might take 10 years or longer and it probably needs to start with bigger institutions. But if PDs are going around saying well never hire DOs or never interview them, they'll get called out on it as DOs get more recognition. There is precedent that AOA has brought legal action already against residency programs to acknowledge equal consideration for DOs. In practice, I know it'll take some time.

DOs usually apply with inferior apps, from non-prestigious schools, that have inferior clinical education, with letters of recommendation from people no ones ever heard of.

Are there stand out applicants every year? Of course. But some programs have a bajillion apps to review. They don’t need to dig through the DO list to look for the few that measure up to the USMD list. Looking for qualified DOs is low yield for these programs when they know they have enough MDs to match. That’s just reality. The merger did nothing to improve this. In fact, most MD faculty/PDs have no idea the merger even happened. Seriously.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

The merger did nothing to improve this. In fact, most MD faculty/PDs have no idea the merger even happened. Seriously.

This. People act as if PDs sit around pontificating about how to keep dem DOs out, when the reality is the vast majority of MDs and PDs don’t even think about DOs… we are barely a blip on their radar.