Are there any residencies I *certainly* can't get into as a DO?

[jamesb01]

Or are all of them fair game? I'm a matriculating OMS-1, sorry for the naivety of the question. Am I pretty much excluded from specialties like dermatology and radiology?

At my medical center, our head of neurosurgery is a DO.

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[Cushing H]

The only specialities that flat out would not take a DO to a MD program despite the merge are ENT and plastics. Luckily DO have their own equivalent programs for these specialities and if you ended up pursuing something competitive like Derm or a surgical subspecialty it would be wise to also apply to the classically AOA programs because at the end of the day you want to match and you wanna match into your chosen specialty above all.

 

[deleted1022107]

Don’t let anyone tell you anything is impossible. If you preform well on your steps and have great letters of recommendation you will be fine. Also keep in mind try and do some electives in derm on your 4th year and make connections. I know personally of two scenarios that will help with this question. One student failed her step 1 twice step 2 CS once and step 2 ck twice and managed to land a residency in California because of the relationship she made during her clinical rotations. I also know someone from St. George’s ( Caribbean) matched into orthopedic surgery this past year and one of the grads into dermatology the year before. Everyone’s path is different so just control what you can.

 

[shezadeh]

Damn, I heard my friend tell me it's pretty much impossible for a DO to get into dermatology.

I literally know a DO dermatologist. Also know of a DO spine and neurosurgeon. So....

 

[formerF1DO]

No. There might be a few specific programs, but definitely not any whole fields that are off-limits.

True. And you probably have to show better stats. Theoretically possible. Just a lot harder compared to if you went to a high tier MD school. Just being honest.

 

[forgetting]

Damn, I heard my friend tell me it's pretty much impossible for a DO to get into dermatology.

purely anectdotal but a dermatology practice in my area has 2 DOs and one MD

 

[calvinhobbes]

Or are all of them fair game? I'm a matriculating OMS-1, sorry for the naivety of the question. Am I pretty much excluded from specialties like dermatology and radiology?

No. You can do anything. Don’t let anyone stop you. So many DOs match Rads, maybe some less into Derm but either way you need to do well, so focus on doing well and making the right connections and either way if you don’t match into that, you will still have the stellar app for a stellar IM program, which you need to do a prelim in anyway.

 

[YCAGA]

To answer the question in OP's post title: no. Almost nothing in medicine is truly 0% or 100%, there are insane case reports for all sorts of 1 in a million outcomes. Of course, matching ortho as a DO is not 1 in 1,000,000, it is like 1 in 2 which is horrible or great depending on how you look at it. And yet another anecdote: a US IMG matched integrated CT surgery in 2021. So anything is (technically) possible.

These are from Charting outcomes 2020.
I don't know where you get your Data from. You said the avg DO Step 1 was not even a 220. I agree. The avg score of DOs who matched was 228. The avg MD was 234. The avg MD who did not match was 226. The avg score for DOs who did not match was 223. So a couple points difference. Maybe you could share your source with the rest of us? . I would be curious.

I think this downplays the differences in Step 1 scores between MD's and DO's. For matched students, the average Step 1 is 227.7 for DO's and 234.0 for MD's. This is "just a few points," but it is the difference between a 37th percentile score compared to all LCME test-takers (US + Canadian MD students) versus 50th percentile. 37th vs. 50th percentile is pretty huge, considering the large sample sizes at play. Add to this the insane selection bias created by the fact that most DO's get to choose to take Step 1. 39% of DO's in the match don't report a Step 1 score. I have a feeling that DO students who are scoring in the low 200's on their NBME's decide not to take Step 1.

I think it is fair to say that if Step 1 were required for DO's, their average would be at or below 220.

And that really shouldn't be a controversial statement. "Bottom tier" MD schools have average Step 1 scores approaching 220. Bottom tier MD schools have objectively stronger students (academically speaking, not bench + Step 1 composite) than the average DO school.

 

[ballet01]

Or are all of them fair game? I'm a matriculating OMS-1, sorry for the naivety of the question. Am I pretty much excluded from specialties like dermatology and radiology?

No, someone who just graduated from my program ( I am also a matriculating OMS 1) just matched derm this year at a top institution. If you work hard, nothing should be off limits to you

 

[sundr]

Nothing is off the table, per se. But the ball is in your court. Like @benruitz98 said above, some of the things that are within your control are "good research, perform stellar on Step 2, and network like crazy". There's a lot of work, but if it's what you want, it's doable. Just know what you're getting yourself into.

Isn't this the case with MDs as well?

 

[seanm028]

Isn't this the case with MDs as well?

Yes.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

To answer the question in OP's post title: no. Almost nothing in medicine is truly 0% or 100%, there are insane case reports for all sorts of 1 in a million outcomes. Of course, matching ortho as a DO is not 1 in 1,000,000, it is like 1 in 2 which is horrible or great depending on how you look at it. And yet another anecdote: a US IMG matched integrated CT surgery in 2021. So anything is (technically) possible.

I think this downplays the differences in Step 1 scores between MD's and DO's. For matched students, the average Step 1 is 227.7 for DO's and 234.0 for MD's. This is "just a few points," but it is the difference between a 37th percentile score compared to all LCME test-takers (US + Canadian MD students) versus 50th percentile. 37th vs. 50th percentile is pretty huge, considering the large sample sizes at play. Add to this the insane selection bias created by the fact that most DO's get to choose to take Step 1. 39% of DO's in the match don't report a Step 1 score. I have a feeling that DO students who are scoring in the low 200's on their NBME's decide not to take Step 1.

I think it is fair to say that if Step 1 were required for DO's, their average would be at or below 220.

And that really shouldn't be a controversial statement. "Bottom tier" MD schools have average Step 1 scores approaching 220. Bottom tier MD schools have objectively stronger students (academically speaking, not bench + Step 1 composite) than the average DO school.

Only about 60% of DOs take USMLE every year, so 39% not reporting step isn't surprising.

 

[selah778]

Are you attending a private or state DO school? If private - is it one of the "better ones"?

SAP Crystal Reports - (kinstacdn.com)

If you look at the charting outcomes then it is nearly "impossible". Your chances are helped by attending a "good" DO school that has its own GME or strong connections, good research, perform stellar on Step 2, and network like crazy. These things are all much harder to do as a DO and some people might be rockstars clinically but perform poorly on tests so therefore they might self-select for a lesser competitive specialty than derm (which is even hella competitive for MDs)

For what it's worth my friends all wanted surgical subspecialties and one wanted cardiology but after getting beat down by first year they decided they want out of the rat race and just went into IM and FM. Freed up a ton of time during MS to vacation and develop their hobbies, one even got married. Short residency, make $250-$300k - they're pretty happy so far.

What are “good” DO schools? Is there a way to find out where applicants from DO schools were accepted to residencies? Thanks.

 

[YCAGA]

Only about 60% of DOs take USMLE every year, so 39% reporting step isn't surprising.

You are missing the point. I am not saying that some DO students are deciding not to report their bad scores. I am saying that DO students who are scoring badly on NBME practice exams just decide not to take Step 1. MD students do not have that choice and still perform significantly better on Step 1. Significant in the statistical sense (P < 0.0001), in magnitude, and colloquially.

That is largely irrelevant to the original topic of this thread though, given how OP framed their question.

 

[drducky.]

You are missing the point. I am not saying that some DO students are deciding not to report their bad scores. I am saying that DO students who are scoring badly on NBME practice exams just decide not to take Step 1. MD students do not have that choice and still perform significantly better on Step 1. Significant in the statistical sense (P < 0.0001), in magnitude, and colloquially.

That is largely irrelevant to the original topic of this thread though, given how OP framed their question.

I believe a lot more DO students would take step 1 if it weren’t for the admins. When you’ve been told for 2 years that usmle = comlex and that usmle is just a MD exam, some people will actually start believing it.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

You are missing the point. I am not saying that some DO students are deciding not to report their bad scores. I am saying that DO students who are scoring badly on NBME practice exams just decide not to take Step 1. MD students do not have that choice and still perform significantly better on Step 1. Significant in the statistical sense (P < 0.0001), in magnitude, and colloquially.

That is largely irrelevant to the original topic of this thread though, given how OP framed their question.

As I stated earlier, our students are required to take both Step and Comlex. They must first attain prescribed metrics on.practice exams before taking the exam for credit.
I don't agree with your statement that the avg Step score for all DOs would be less than 220 if everyone was mandated to take it. You are making some ambitious assumptions and extrapolating data. We will know for sure when all are required to take steps and the data will be available.. This should occur in a few years.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

What are “good” DO schools? Is there a way to find out where applicants from DO schools were accepted to residencies? Thanks.

It feels like your first question is a thread that’ll get reintroduced every few months or so. Ask 100 different people, and you’ll get maybe 70 unique responses. The public ones tend to be the most helpful in keeping their students on track however.

Don’t know if you’ve already done this, but check to see each school’s match list. Most will state the location/hospital to the specialty. If they don’t, it’s usually a red flag.

 

[Whysoez]

You are missing the point. I am not saying that some DO students are deciding not to report their bad scores. I am saying that DO students who are scoring badly on NBME practice exams just decide not to take Step 1. MD students do not have that choice and still perform significantly better on Step 1. Significant in the statistical sense (P < 0.0001), in magnitude, and colloquially.

That is largely irrelevant to the original topic of this thread though, given how OP framed their question.

At my school we do these "mock" NBME exams twice every semester, with the first one you do not have to pass, so naturally the average was super low. However, the school requires everyone to pass the 2nd mock NBME exam of of the semester (scoring within certain range of class average) and all of the sudden the class average shoots up by +20%. IMO, knowing whether or not you have to pass something matters.

 

[YCAGA]

At my school we do these "mock" NBME exams twice every semester, with the first one you do not have to pass, so naturally the average was super low. However, the school requires everyone to pass the 2nd mock NBME exam of of the semester (scoring within certain range of class average) and all of the sudden the class average shoots up by +20%. IMO, knowing whether or not you have to pass something matters.

That is an interesting point. I think in an ideal world, DO students would just take the Step exams and COMLEX would be nuked, save for a small exam on only OMM which they could do in an hour or two. Well, ideal in the sense that DO schools could stay accredited as osteopathic schools; I definitely would not want to have to learn OMM on top of everything else we need to know. Having two separate paths to being an American-trained physician should not exist anyways, imo. The only reason two pathways have survived is history and chest-thumping from both the DO and MD side.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

That is an interesting point. I think in an ideal world, DO students would just take the Step exams and COMLEX would be nuked, save for a small exam on only OMM which they could do in an hour or two. Well, ideal in the sense that DO schools could stay accredited as osteopathic schools; I definitely would not want to have to learn OMM on top of everything else we need to know. Having two separate paths to being an American-trained physician should not exist anyways, imo. The only reason two pathways have survived is history and chest-thumping from both the DO and MD side.

I believe what you describe is in the works. There is a lot of that chest thumping for sure. Many DOs of my generation feel like they knocked down the barriers and want to maintain their distinction. I think we should just declare victory and move on.

 

[Osminog]

Having two separate paths to being an American-trained physician should not exist anyways, imo. The only reason two pathways have survived is history and chest-thumping from both the DO and MD side.

If we're being honest, the chest-thumping mostly comes from the DO side. It was DO organizations alone that thwarted efforts to merge the DO and MD degrees in California in the 70s, even after a majority of osteopathic physicians in the state gladly paid a nominal fee to receive MD degrees. The osteopathic racket was, and still is, largely run by profiteers and quacks who don't represent the interests or values of the average physician with a DO degree. Until more students and everyday doctors speak out, the bureaucrats and Kool-Aid brewers won't loosen their grips and allow progress to be made.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

If we're being honest, the chest-thumping mostly comes from the DO side. It was DO organizations alone that thwarted efforts to merge the DO and MD degrees in California in the 70s, even after a majority of osteopathic physicians in the state gladly paid a nominal fee to receive MD degrees. The osteopathic racket was, and still is, largely run by profiteers and quacks who don't represent the interests or values of the average physician with a DO degree. Until more students and everyday doctors speak out, the bureaucrats and Kool-Aid brewers won't loosen their grips and allow progress to be made.

I don't disagree that financial incentive was part of the DOs looking to be separate. Plenty of that in the ACGME. I think you discount the existing DO bias out there. This bias was also a factor in maintaining separate but equal. Look only at PD surveys which demonstrate how many programs rarely or never interview DOs. Our local Uni IM program has never taken a DO and never will. This told to me by my personal MD who is a highly ranked faculty member there. It will take awhile for that to change, if ever.

 

[Osminog]

I don't disagree that financial incentive was part of the DOs looking to be separate. Plenty of that in the ACGME. I think you discount the existing DO bias out there. This bias was also a factor in maintaining separate but equal. Look only at PD surveys which demonstrate how many programs rarely or never interview DOs. Our local Uni IM program has never taken a DO and never will. This told to me by my personal MD who is a highly ranked faculty member there. It will take awhile for that to change, if ever.

The bias will go away if pseudoscience (especially cranial and Chapman’s points) is eliminated from the curriculum, extra burdens are removed (COMLEX), and schools start meeting the standards of the LCME rather than COCA (especially when it comes to quality of clinical education). Until that happens, yes, some MDs will be reluctant to merge the degrees and allow DO schools to function as US MD-granting institutions.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

The bias will go away if pseudoscience (especially cranial and Chapman’s points) is eliminated from the curriculum, extra burdens are removed (COMLEX), and schools start meeting the standards of the LCME rather than COCA (especially when it comes to quality of clinical education). Until that happens, yes, some MDs will be reluctant to merge the degrees and allow DO schools to function as US MD-granting institutions.

Respectfully, I think you are naive. Our local Uni doesn't take DOs because you had to learn Chapman's points. They think DOs are an inferior product that will hurt their reputation if people, or applicants, see DOs in their program. Thankfully more programs are changing, but the upper tier places are slow to change. Even with the Holy Grail of of merging degrees, where you went to med school will still matter. Why? Because MDs from the Ivys, or higher ranked schools, do it to each other and certainly will do it to you.Few people will tell you these truths, but I did my residency and fellowship at MD universities and taught at our local university. If you believe you are discriminated against because you had to learn Chapman's points, or that extra studying lowered your Step score,, you are misguided. There are MD and DO students who could do that and score 250+ on Step 1. When you become a boarded attending, most of this nonsense will vanish. Insurers pay the same if you went to Harvard or PCOM.

 

[Osminog]

Respectfully, I think you are naive. Our local Uni doesn't take DOs because you had to learn Chapman's points. They think DOs are an inferior product that will hurt their reputation if people, or applicants, see DOs in their program. Thankfully more programs are changing, but the upper tier places are slow to change. Even with the Holy Grail of of merging degrees, where you went to med school will still matter. Why? Because MDs from the Ivys, or higher ranked schools, do it to each other and certainly will do it to you.Few people will tell you these truths, but I did my residency and fellowship at MD universities and taught at our local university. If you believe you are discriminated against because you had to learn Chapman's points, or that extra studying lowered your Step score,, you are misguided. There are MD and DO students who could do that and score 250+ on Step 1. When you become a boarded attending, most of this nonsense will vanish. Insurers pay the same if you went to Harvard or PCOM.

The bias doesn’t exist because MD PDs randomly decided one day that “the letters after their names are different from ours, so we don’t like them.” They think that DOs are less qualified candidates because they believe aspects of DO education are inferior. And they’re right. There are aspects of the DO education that are inferior, and I listed some of them in my prior post. Instead of pretending the stigma is just senseless bias for the sake of exclusion, we should be fighting to improve the curricula at DO schools and to raise the accreditation standards.

 

[Jth94]

Our school just graduated their first year DO class, ARCOM is the school. We had derm, and even neuro surg. Pretty good for a DO school let alone the first match we’ve had. Definitely not impossible

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Our school just graduated their first year DO class, ARCOM is the school. We had derm, and even neuro surg. Pretty good for a DO school let alone the first match we’ve had. Definitely not impossible

This. ARCOM had Derm, Ortho, Neuro surg, Urology, IR, DR, and Gen surg matches.

 

[YCAGA]

The bias will go away if pseudoscience (especially cranial and Chapman’s points) is eliminated from the curriculum, extra burdens are removed (COMLEX), and schools start meeting the standards of the LCME rather than COCA (especially when it comes to quality of clinical education). Until that happens, yes, some MDs will be reluctant to merge the degrees and allow DO schools to function as US MD-granting institutions.

The bias will not go away while DO average MCAT, undergraduate GPA, and USMLE scores are drastically lower than all but the lowest-tier MD schools. I don’t say that to rag on individual DO students, that’s just a statistical fact. “DO” and “osteopathic” is a scarlet letter that says to a PD that someone for whatever reason could not get into an MD school.

And to be very clear, it is irrelevant whether or not the above metrics or the current system are fair. Similar discussions about DO schools on SDN normally devolve into arguments about whether or not USMLE exams should be scored, if the MCAT predicts anything, etc. Again, that argument doesn’t matter unless you and your team are making admission decisions for a medical school or residency, or are involved in national policy.

 

[YCAGA]

The DO accreditation body will also have to demand high quality and consistent core clinical rotations. Currently the standard DO clinical rotation system is an absolute joke. It is an exception for a DO school to have the majority of their students rotate at a tertiary/quarternary hospital that is tightly affiliated with the medical school, if not part of the itself. On the other hand, it is the very rare exception for an MD school to NOT have that.

For example, a well known DO school like PCOM sends it students all over the country to sites of varying quality, many of which don’t even full time faculty or clinical curriculums. For lesser known DO schools, I have literally seen DO students show up for core rotations where they just shadow the doctor working that day…and their preceptor doesn’t even expect them. Compare that to a “low-tier” MD school like the University of Mississippi which has DO level average MCAT scores, GPA’s and Step scores. Regardless, all of their students have the opportunity to do core rotations at an academic level 1 trauma center that is tightly integrated with the school and has full time clinical attendings.

Now, of course there are exceptions. I believe @Goro ’s school is quite established and has more consistent clinical rotations and faculty. So some PD’s might know which DO schools produce clinically competent interns, but many PD’s don’t even want to bother sorting that out, as shown by the number of programs that NEVER interview DO students for residency.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

The bias will not go away while DO average MCAT, undergraduate GPA, and USMLE scores are drastically lower than all but the lowest-tier MD schools. I don’t say that to rag on individual DO students, that’s just a statistical fact. “DO” and “osteopathic” is a scarlet letter that says to a PD that someone for whatever reason could not get into an MD school.

And to be very clear, it is irrelevant whether or not the above metrics or the current system are fair. Similar discussions about DO schools on SDN normally devolve into arguments about whether or not USMLE exams should be scored, if the MCAT predicts anything, etc. Again, that argument doesn’t matter unless you and your team are making admission decisions for a medical school or residency, or are involved in national policy.

Yet some MD schools average lower MCAT and GPA than some DO schools, and they still match better than those DO schools. Examples: Meharry vs DMU or NOVA vs PCOM or Ponce vs TCOM. The average MCAT and GPA is not the main issue in my opinion. Average stat for DO schools are still pretty decent 3.7/504.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

The DO accreditation body will also have to demand high quality and consistent core clinical rotations. Currently the standard DO clinical rotation system is an absolute joke. It is an exception for a DO school to have the majority of their students rotate at a tertiary/quarternary hospital that is tightly affiliated with the medical school, if not part of the itself. On the other hand, it is the very rare exception for an MD school to NOT have that.

For example, a well known DO school like PCOM sends it students all over the country to sites of varying quality, many of which don’t even full time faculty or clinical curriculums. For lesser known DO schools, I have literally seen DO students show up for core rotations where they just shadow the doctor working that day…and their preceptor doesn’t even expect them. Compare that to a “low-tier” MD school like the University of Mississippi which has DO level average MCAT scores, GPA’s and Step scores. Regardless, all of their students have the opportunity to do core rotations at an academic level 1 trauma center that is tightly integrated with the school and has full time clinical attendings.

Now, of course there are exceptions. I believe @Goro ’s school is quite established and has more consistent clinical rotations and faculty. So some PD’s might know which DO schools produce clinically competent interns, but many PD’s don’t even want to bother sorting that out, as shown by the number of programs that NEVER interview DO students for residency.

I believe the clinical rotation issue might be one for the main problems for DO bias.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

The bias exists because historically the osteopaths were quacks who couldn’t get into real medical school. Things have actually come a very long way, as evidenced by the annual increase in DOs matching places they traditionally couldn’t.

It doesn’t really have anything to do with GPA and MCAT these days….

Not sure why we are discussing this. It is what it is. A complete merger is inevitable.

 

[YCAGA]

Yet some MD schools average lower MCAT and GPA than some DO schools, and they still match better than those DO schools. Examples: Meharry vs DMU or NOVA vs PCOM or Ponce vs TCOM. The average MCAT and GPA is not the main issue in my opinion. Average stat for DO schools are still pretty decent 3.7/504.

I might not have done a good job explaining this but what you are describing is part of my point. The average DO student body is less competitive academically than the average MD student body, so going to an allopathic school vs osteopathic school is an easy mental division that PD’s can use. When you start getting granular with specific schools, you are doing more leg work than most PD’s will probably do.

Now for a lot of programs this doesn’t matter, which is evidenced by very solid DO match rates in stuff like IM, FM, peds…heck I think even rads in recent years.

The difference in study bodies matters for stuff like clinical grades and AOA. The DO version of AOA isn’t really respected due to a less competitive student body, and more salty PD’s will see that 20% of a DO class honored core rotation X and think “so what? They are competitive against people with college GPAs of 3.1.” Not really true, but most unfair biases aren’t grounded in solid facts.

 

[Ali23]

No field is off the table. Certain programs in every field are though. Only the really good DO schools like OSU, MSU, and TCOM actually have resources that help you match into the Uber competitive specialties. So that is limiting. The research you’ll need to do to match those fields will have to be found outside of your school just like almost any other DO school. But it’s possible. My school had a derm match at a former AOA program and an MD university neurosurgery match.

I matched very well into rads as a DO. It’s a notch down in competitiveness from surgical fields and derm.

While the lack of resources at an osteopathic school as well as the bias against DOs are valid points as to why we struggle to match these fields; the biggest reason is that the majority of DO students simply don’t have the insane drive needed to do this stuff.

People like to point out that it’s worse at new schools because the schools are worse and inexperienced. There’s some truth to that, too. But its probably more to do with just taking a lot of applicants who aren’t that strong academically. It’s not the schools fault that these students can’t all be brain surgeons when the majority of the class is struggling to get through at all.

I'm sorry but I am not familiar with all the abbreviations. RADS? forgive me I'm new here.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

I'm sorry but I am not familiar with all the abbreviations. RADS? forgive me I'm new here.

Radiology

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I would disagree with this statement. The bottom third at my MD school can walk into good academic IM programs, gas, rads, etc without much trouble - the same can't be said for the bottom third of most DO.

The bottom third of any MD school still had to pass Step 1 whereas the bottom third of many DOs (and in some cases the bottom 50%) did not take USMLE and only took COMLEX (with avg to below avg scores). The bottom third of my school still had the same quality of clinical rotations as the top 70%. With DO its a mixed bag. I have DO friends starting residency in July who haven't touched a patient since March 2020.

Even if you compare a DO school with a nearby low-tier MD school, they might have "similar" percentages of primary care vs specialty but 100% of the time the MD school matches will be at more prestigious institutions (and for IM this means GI/Cardio fellowships). My "low-tier" school has sent people to MGH and similar caliber programs, no DO school can say that - maybe they don't care where they end up, fine. Point is, these MGH IM matches could have easily been a lower-tier ENT, ophtho, etc. The most prestigious IM match of any DO doesn't translate in the same way.

I follow a non-famous plastic surgeon on Instagram and I was shocked to learn he graduated from SGU. I looked him up and it took him over 10 years (gen surg -> research -> fellowship) to accomplish it. You can even tell he looks 50 when he's only in his late 30s. That doesn't mean "Oh just go to SGU and you can do plastic surgery no problem"

This video couldn't have come at a better time. The data doesn't lie.


If you want to equate the bottom third of MD to bottom third of DO, or any comparisons at all then make USMLE a graduation requirement for all DOs. This would do more harm than good. Strong schools like KCU, TCOM, etc might only lose 10-15% of their students but weaker schools like LMU, KYCOM, will lose 40-50% who aren't able to pass at all. These people would have otherwise been a great asset to their community as family doctors or hospitalists. Schools will be forced to matriculate OOS (mostly Cali kids with higher stats) over their own community members (typically weaker stats) and it would greatly increase health disparities in their community.

Lol I love how the video only talks about plastics and leaves out stuff like derm, ortho, ent and uro where DO’s % matched is atleast comparable to MD(per 2020 charting outcomes) thanks largely to the former aoa programs that made it to acgme. There is only 180 total spots in plastics. Keep in mind there are like 24000+ total USMD and DO seniors who match every year. That’s 0.75% of spots for plastics(even then 1-2 DO’s match it almost every year lol). I would actually argue the opposite, it would be absolutely terrible advice to tell a pre medical student that they should give up DO acceptance (after failing to get a USMD acceptance for once cycle) to try again and again when it gets harder to get into DO and MD school every passing year, just because it will be easier to be part of that .75% of all medical students who match something like Plastics, neurosurgery or CT surgery. Also the charting outcomes shows that there are in fact bottom 1/3 DO students who match stuff like Anesthesia, Rads, pmr, neuro, like there a bunch of DO seniors in 2020 who matched Gas with less than a 210 step 1. Also idk but I doubt a bottom 1/3 USMD Is just waltzing into MGH and penn for IM.. they will most likely end up at a low tier university IM program. I do agree though that is easier to match upper tier IM from low tier MD then DO but I doubt many people go into medical school wanting to be at top tier IM… your also overestimating how hard it is to pass USMLE, I doubt that the 40-50% of people would fail out at any DO school(even a brand new one) if they all had to take step. More than likely if you can pass comlex you can atleast pass usmle(no one said you will do well or even average, we are talking about passing, COMLEX scores and USMLE scores track fairly evenly for DO students so a DO student who passes comlex with a 450 would get a passing 192-200 on step most likely). So that number that failed would more or less be the same(around 10% -15%for a brand new school) more established schools would also essentially be the same. The average scores would be lower I give you that but the overall impact would be very minimal if at all. Those who only take comlex, mostly only match FM,IM, Peds and maybe PMR? Those same people would be below average step 1 and 2(200-210 is scores) and would ultimately still end up in FM, community IM, Peds, PMR etc..

 

[aml868]

I shadowed a dermatologist at a hospital and he said they reserve two DO spots for them specifically!! So not impossible

 

[diehappy]

I shadowed a dermatologist at a hospital and he said they reserve two DO spots for them specifically!! So not impossible

Curious, which hospital?

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Curious, which hospital?

I believe its CCF, I know UH CMC also does this, CCF also reserves a spot for plastics for DO's lol

 

[drstranger]

I shadowed a dermatologist at a hospital and he said they reserve two DO spots for them specifically!! So not impossible

most former AOA programs still take majority DO's so this is true in almost all specialties but its not a very large number of spots and every year there are more and more DO students.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

most former AOA programs still take majority DO's so this is true in almost all specialties but its not a very large number of spots and every year there are more and more DO students.

Yea but some original acgme places like UH CMC actually reserve spots for DO's

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Yea but some original acgme places like UH CMC actually reserve spots for DO's

UH reserves spots because they absorbed a DO program and that was the agreement.

CCF does not reserve spots for DOs in their plastics program lol

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

UH reserves spots because they absorbed a DO program and that was the agreement.

CCF does not reserve spots for DOs in their plastics program lol

It does I am 100% sure about it

 

[DOVinciRobot]

It does I am 100% sure about it

They don’t lol. Evidence please.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

They don’t lol. Evidence please.

My bad I read somewhere on this site that they did, and when I checked their residents on the CCF website there were several DO's so I assumed it was true.

 

[drstranger]

They don’t lol. Evidence please.

they only have a PGY-5, 2 and 1. So its not evey year Source. but pretty good for a DO-friendly program.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

they only have a PGY-5, 2 and 1. So its not evey year Source. but pretty good for a DO-friendly program.

The latest pgy 1 class isn't updated, there is one from CCOM this year as well

 

[DOVinciRobot]

My bad I read somewhere on this site that they did, and when I checked their residents on the CCF website there were several DO's so I assumed it was true.

they only have a PGY-5, 2 and 1. So its not evey year Source. but pretty good for a DO-friendly program.

Yeah it’s not a like a guaranteed spot. But they are like Mayo, they will consider a qualified DO.

 

[Doctoscope]

I've read that integrated plastics had a 0% match rate for DOs last year. Would that make it a "certainly can't" residency?

 

[Ho0v-man]

I've read that integrated plastics had a 0% match rate for DOs last year. Would that make it a "certainly can't" residency?

I think a couple years ago someone from PCOM matched integrated plastics at UPenn.

Again, any specialty is possible from a DO school. But certain programs in just about any specialty will never recruit a DO.