Are they doing the right thing?

[obvithrowaway]

Obviously a throwaway account to ask a question.

My school, US MD, found out recently that there's a rampant cheating ring going on within my class. There is digital proof. Not sure, if the school just hasn't been able to get a hold of this proof, but its widely known to exist (at least now that the "story" has broken).

Its also acknowledged that most of these students are top performers. So they didn't need to cheat to pass but are grouping together to get honors. Our school doesn't rank, but does put you into tiers in your MSPE based on your preclinical class percentages. Also, they use preclinical grades for AOA and offer a year end honors distinction if you score a certain percentile overall in your coursework.

Maybe because they're top performers the school has done close to nothing about this. They asked the students if they're doing it, they said "no." And the administration sent out an email telling us to "not cheat."

Is this how this should be handled? How can students who are understandably upset about this rigged system put pressure on the school to expel/suspend/disqualify from AOA said students? Or is this just another instance of mistreatment to swallow if you are an honest student at this school?

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[obvithrowaway]

@Goro @gyngyn

 

[libertyyne]

What option do you even have? the school knows, and their response was an email.

 

[obvithrowaway]

What option do you even have? the school knows, and their response was an email.

I'm asking if there are other options. You might be right that there are none outside of the nuclear option of anonymously reporting to LCME which I wouldn't put past one of my classmates to have already done.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I mean if admin doesn't want to do anything about it even with proof, the main solace is to round up people who weren't in that group (and care like you do) and have a meeting with admin about how it's bs.

The fact that the 'top performers' were cheating and thus should be given any leniency is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. How do you know that the top performers aren't the top performers BECAUSE they're cheating?

 

[libertyyne]

I mean if admin doesn't want to do anything about it even with proof, the main solace is to round up people who weren't in that group (and care like you do) and have a meeting with admin about how it's bs.

The fact that the 'top performers' were cheating and thus should be given any leniency is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. How do you know that the top performers aren't the top performers BECAUSE they're cheating?

The only solace to be had is that step 1 will set this behavior straight. But maybe it wont, such is life.

 

[obvithrowaway]

I mean if admin doesn't want to do anything about it even with proof, the main solace is to round up people who weren't in that group (and care like you do) and have a meeting with admin about how it's bs.

The fact that the 'top performers' were cheating and thus should be given any leniency is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. How do you know that the top performers aren't the top performers BECAUSE they're cheating?

Exactly the point. If they were capable of being top performers on their own, they wouldn't be cheating.

This is a good idea, maybe it would go somewhere

 

[libertyyne]

Exactly the point. If they were capable of being top performers on their own, they wouldn't be cheating.

This is a good idea, maybe it would go somewhere

Do you have the evidence? Why not send it to the school?

 

[obvithrowaway]

I don't have the evidence- only the cheaters had it i'm sure- without doxxing the school bc i'm not sure how safe I am even with a throwaway account. I'm sure its been deleted by now and the school knows it exists it was mentioned in the email that this was a structured event they knew about.

Not kicking them out bc they're top performers is highly hypocritical. All the "been expelled help" posts from cheaters in the past give a false impression that med school doesn't tolerate cheating. But I guess if you cheat this well, its okay since youre at the top of the class.

 

[libertyyne]

I don't have the evidence- only the cheaters had it i'm sure- without doxxing the school bc i'm not sure how safe I am even with a throwaway account. I'm sure its been deleted by now and the school knows it exists it was mentioned in the email that this was a structured event they knew about.

Not kicking them out bc they're top performers is highly hypocritical. All the "been expelled help" posts from cheaters in the past give a false impression that med school doesn't tolerate cheating. But I guess if you cheat this well, its okay since youre at the top of the class.

 

[curbsideconsult]

A few options (none of them great):

• You could report this to the AOA in addition to LCME if you wanted
• You could blast the school on SDN by revealing the name of your institution
• You could contact the alumni society to let them know what's going on (it's all about the green)
• You could contact your local paper to investigate
• If these people are cheating using school resources (i.e. school emails) then IT could easily prove it if admin wanted them to

For your own protection: avoid these people at all costs during rotations. Goodness knows what they'd be willing to do to fellow classmates on the wards when you're all competing for glowing evals from the same preceptors.

 

[obvithrowaway]

A few options (none of them great):

• You could report this to the AOA in addition to LCME if you wanted
• You could blast the school on SDN by revealing the name of your institution
• You could contact the alumni society to let them know what's going on (it's all about the green)
• You could contact your local paper to investigate
• If these people are cheating using school resources (i.e. school emails) then IT could easily prove it if admin wanted them to

For your own protection: avoid these people at all costs during rotations. Goodness knows what they'd be willing to do to fellow classmates on the wards when you're all competing for glowing evals from the same preceptors.

Thanks for the advice, you bring up a great self preserving point for later on.

Also, these are excellent suggestions. Will bring them back to others to discuss. There are many of us who feel this should not just be brushed under the rug as its being.

 

[CyrusHabs7695]

A few options (none of them great):

• You could report this to the AOA in addition to LCME if you wanted
• You could blast the school on SDN by revealing the name of your institution
• You could contact the alumni society to let them know what's going on (it's all about the green)
• You could contact your local paper to investigate
• If these people are cheating using school resources (i.e. school emails) then IT could easily prove it if admin wanted them to

For your own protection: avoid these people at all costs during rotations. Goodness knows what they'd be willing to do to fellow classmates on the wards when you're all competing for glowing evals from the same preceptors.

pick choice #2

 

[BluegrassBuckeye]

I understand being frustrated and even angry about this, but the school already knows about it and has dealt with it how they chose. What benefit is it to you to push this issue more? You only run the risk of making enemies with your administration/faculty and destroying the reputation of your whole class with residency directors who may or may not hear about it. Is there any way for them to know you were one of the good guys? I would imagine not and they would likely be inclined to just avoid the whole class.

Edit: This response is in reply to the "nuclear option". I definitely agree with meeting with your administration privately to discuss it further.

 

[mistafab]

Cheating makes doctors look bad.

Cheating also makes the school look bad.

I hope something gets done about it for your sake and other student’s sake. I myself would not be a whistleblower in almost any scenario, however. Whistleblowers almost ALWAYS face negative consequences.

 

[obvithrowaway]

I understand being frustrated and even angry about this, but the school already knows about it and has dealt with it how they chose. What benefit is it to you to push this issue more? You only run the risk of making enemies with your administration/faculty and destroying the reputation of your whole class with residency directors who may or may not hear about it. Is there any way for them to know you were one of the good guys? I would imagine not and they would likely be inclined to just avoid the whole class.

Edit: This response is in reply to the "nuclear option". I definitely agree with meeting with your administration privately to discuss it further.

yeah i would not do that although program directors are unlikely to know all this in the end- my peers would know bc we keep up on the thigns happenign at other med schools and i wouldn't want my fellow co-residents in a few years to think i'm one of the cheaters.

but people are angry and i wouldn't put it past someone else to have done this. think about it, the school is sending the message that cheating is okay as long as you get good scores with the cheating. what honest student wouldn't be depressed knowing their admin is not only letting the cheaters all stay (a GROUP of kids who created elaborate schemes to cheat their ways to top scores) but is also telling you that your actually earned scores will rank you lower compared to the cheaters when MSPE comes out?

 

[obvithrowaway]

Cheating makes doctors look bad.

Cheating also makes the school look bad.

I hope something gets done about it for your sake and other student’s sake. I myself would not be a whistleblower in almost any scenario, however. Whistleblowers almost ALWAYS face negative consequences.

yes in this case, the school will punish any whistleblowers more harshly than the cheaters they're protecting. i don't want to be a whislteblower but i do think the students who are angry will/should push for further consequences.

 

[BluegrassBuckeye]

yeah i would not do that although program directors are unlikely to know all this in the end- my peers would know bc we keep up on the thigns happenign at other med schools and i wouldn't want my fellow co-residents in a few years to think i'm one of the cheaters.

but people are angry and i wouldn't put it past someone else to have done this. think about it, the school is sending the message that cheating is okay as long as you get good scores with the cheating. what honest student wouldn't be depressed knowing their admin is not only letting the cheaters all stay (a GROUP of kids who created elaborate schemes to cheat their ways to top scores) but is also telling you that your actually earned scores will rank you lower compared to the cheaters when MSPE comes out?

Let me play devil's advocate here. Is it possible the school just doesn't have the stone cold proof you think they do?

 

[getdown]

It's obvious the school doesn't want to do anything about it. And thus, it'd be extremely stupid on your end to keep pursuing this.

Life's not fair and just move on with it. Would you complain as well should someone use their connections to get an interview spot at your #1 program while you didn't get an invite? Make the most out of what you have. If they are truly cheating than that'll catch up with them sooner or later and they'll suffer the consequences. Just focus on you and move on.

 

[obvithrowaway]

It's obvious the school doesn't want to do anything about it. And thus, it'd be extremely stupid on your end to keep pursuing this.

Life's not fair and just move on with it. Would you complain as well should someone use their connections to get an interview spot at your #1 program while you didn't get an invite? Make the most out of what you have. If they are truly cheating than that'll catch up with them sooner or later and they'll suffer the consequences. Just focus on you and move on.

you are right in the larger picture of things. i'm not arguing that.

i'm surprsied so few people here have thoughts on what the school is doing in sweeping this under the rug. as colleagues and future colleagues why aren't more people surprised at the actions of a US MD school's administration? i would think more people would want hte school to do the right thing and expel the students.

is anyone surprised by the actions of the school? or would one expect this treatment bc some of these replies have me thinking i'm the idiot in being outraged by this action when this may have been expected considering that there were so many students cheating and they were all top performers

 

[libertyyne]

you are right in the larger picture of things. i'm not arguing that.

i'm surprsied so few people here have thoughts on what the school is doing in sweeping this under the rug. as colleagues and future colleagues why aren't more people surprised at the actions of a US MD school's administration? i would think more people would want hte school to do the right thing and expel the students.

is anyone surprised by the actions of the school? or would one expect this treatment bc some of these replies have me thinking i'm the idiot in being outraged by this action when this may have been expected considering that there were so many students cheating and they were all top performers

If the school has the proof and not acting on it . thats bad. But if the school only has rumors or reports without any evidence not sure there is much they can do.

 

[curbsideconsult]

It's obvious the school doesn't want to do anything about it. And thus, it'd be extremely stupid on your end to keep pursuing this.

Life's not fair and just move on with it. Would you complain as well should someone use their connections to get an interview spot at your #1 program while you didn't get an invite? Make the most out of what you have. If they are truly cheating than that'll catch up with them sooner or later and they'll suffer the consequences. Just focus on you and move on.

But is it really stupid for OP to keep pursuing this? The mentality of "you do you" and move on is probably how we got the anti-vax movement. I'm not saying cheaters = the next Andrew Wakefield, but what if someone who had known about his fraudulent activities had reported him and had pursued it until someone listened before he submitted his "research" for publication? It seems to me that reporting on him happened much too late.

Too many of us are afraid or lazy or apathetic to do what OP is doing and I wonder if we all shouldn't be more like OP in pursuing these things. The comparison that someone used their connections to what is happening at OP's school is not even close. A better comparison would be if someone used their connections to somehow alter the accepted list to get someone else kicked off. I'm not saying that we should all go crying to admin if a colleague calls us an idiot or if a group of students are withholding information like when important study sessions are happening. But OP's complaint is that active cheating is going on that has consequences for everyone in the class and on a long-term scale.

 

[libertyyne]

But is it really stupid for OP to keep pursuing this? The mentality of "you do you" and move on is probably how we got the anti-vax movement. I'm not saying cheaters = the next Andrew Wakefield, but what if someone who had known about his fraudulent activities had reported him and had pursued it until someone listened before he submitted his "research" for publication? It seems to me that reporting on him happened much too late.

Too many of us are afraid or lazy or apathetic to do what OP is doing and I wonder if we all shouldn't be more like OP in pursuing these things. The comparison that someone used their connections to what is happening at OP's school is not even close. A better comparison would be if someone used their connections to somehow alter the accepted list to get someone else kicked off. I'm not saying that we should all go crying to admin if a colleague calls us an idiot or if a group of students are withholding information like when important study sessions are happening. But OP's complaint is that active cheating is going on that has consequences for everyone in the class and on a long-term scale.

I think the problem is with the proof. OP or school cant do much unless there is proof . Even a report to LCME wont accomplish anything. However if there is proof it can be handled anonymously with temp emails and screenshots etc. Thats the problem, just being angry about it is useless.

 

[curbsideconsult]

I think the problem is with the proof. OP or school cant do much unless there is proof . Even a report to LCME wont accomplish anything. However if there is proof it can be handled anonymously with temp emails and screenshots etc. Thats the problem, just being angry about it is useless.

I agree with you on the proof. It would be horrible if someone's career got tanked without any evidence to back up OP's claims. What I was responding to was the laissez faire attitude of getdown's post. Perhaps I interpreted it incorrectly.

 

[obvithrowaway]

I haven't heard from the administration directly, but those who started bringing these issues to the administration's attention initially say they included proof in the form of screenshots and names. The administration acknowledges they know i was a preplanned scheme.

I udnerstand this may be a fools mission but we shouldn't be turning out students who are so bold to cheat in this highly elaborate way for the obvious reason that dishonest students turn into dishonest physicians. In the larger picture this is most important. However, what about morale and faith in the process for peers? If this slides, those involved will be at the top of the class when they graduate and will have that on their MSPE, not that they cheated their way to that top.

 

[Goro]

you are right in the larger picture of things. i'm not arguing that.

i'm surprsied so few people here have thoughts on what the school is doing in sweeping this under the rug. as colleagues and future colleagues why aren't more people surprised at the actions of a US MD school's administration? i would think more people would want hte school to do the right thing and expel the students.

is anyone surprised by the actions of the school? or would one expect this treatment bc some of these replies have me thinking i'm the idiot in being outraged by this action when this may have been expected considering that there were so many students cheating and they were all top performers

In a cheating scandal at the US Naval Academy a number of years ago, many cadets were expelled.
An Inquiry Finds 125 Cheated On a Naval Academy Exam
Two Dozen Expelled in Naval Academy Cheating Scandal - The Tech

Then there's this:
MUSC Cheating Scandal: Bombshell Dropped
MUSC Cheating Scandal: Update

and this:
Cheating scandal forces medical students to resit exam
“Lifting the carpet” on cheating in medical school exams

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Life's not fair and just move on with it. Would you complain as well should someone use their connections to get an interview spot at your #1 program while you didn't get an invite?

This is straight bull**** and you know it. That isn't even kind of the same.

I would get my hands on proof, and then give it to the local news station anonymously, perhaps anonymous reporting to the LCME as well.

The fact that so many posters are being so casual about this irks me to no end. I'm with @libertyyne that if they actually don't have the hard proof then that's a whole different situation, but if they truly have it and have done nothing but send an email then that is pretty damning.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I would confirm there is 100% undisputable proof before you pursue this any further. Discuss with the people who reported it initially, discuss it with admin, whatever. There are always 'rumors' of cheating, but the only time the school is in the wrong if there is evidence staring them in the face and blatantly ignore it.

Feel free to PM me the name of the school, OP or any of his classmates that know about this, who worry about retaliation. Obviously I don't care who you are, and I'll put the school on blast - this is something applicants should know about, even if the cheating is just a rumor.

 

[gyngyn]

@Goro @gyngyn

Call the LCME.

 

[Treebeard]

My suggestion is to put your head down, study hard, do well, and go to residency at a different institution. I get why this is frustrating and definitely should not be happening, but it's also outside of your control, and trying to blow it up is unlikely to have a desirable result anyway.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Your problem is that you can’t prove the accusation. So, you think you know but you don’t really. If one of the students with proof wants to come forward, he or she could contact the LCME, the press, etc. But, absent proof, you could face serious consequences for making an accusation.

 

[getdown]

But is it really stupid for OP to keep pursuing this? The mentality of "you do you" and move on is probably how we got the anti-vax movement. I'm not saying cheaters = the next Andrew Wakefield, but what if someone who had known about his fraudulent activities had reported him and had pursued it until someone listened before he submitted his "research" for publication? It seems to me that reporting on him happened much too late.

Too many of us are afraid or lazy or apathetic to do what OP is doing and I wonder if we all shouldn't be more like OP in pursuing these things. The comparison that someone used their connections to what is happening at OP's school is not even close. A better comparison would be if someone used their connections to somehow alter the accepted list to get someone else kicked off. I'm not saying that we should all go crying to admin if a colleague calls us an idiot or if a group of students are withholding information like when important study sessions are happening. But OP's complaint is that active cheating is going on that has consequences for everyone in the class and on a long-term scale.

This is straight bull**** and you know it. That isn't even kind of the same.

I would get my hands on proof, and then give it to the local news station anonymously, perhaps anonymous reporting to the LCME as well.

The fact that so many posters are being so casual about this irks me to no end. I'm with @libertyyne that if they actually don't have the hard proof then that's a whole different situation, but if they truly have it and have done nothing but send an email then that is pretty damning.

You are entitled to your opinions and everyone has their own priorities. For me it comes down to a simple risk and benefit assessment. Though admirable, the risk for OP (administration retaliation, possibly even getting expelled, reputation as a problem student, etc) far outweighs the benefit. What is the actual benefit? Sense of satisfaction of doing the right thing? Preventing an undesirable from becoming a physician? Preventing harm from happening to a future patient? None of which are tangible enough to risk your own neck for. If there was direct danger to patient care then of course report it, 100%. If the school did not know then report it. But this? Not worth pursuing especially that the medical school admin already knows and not willing to do anything. You both are medical students and still sheltered within the confines of the Ivory Tower. Once you're out in the real world practicing, have bills to pay you'll quickly realize that no one really is out there looking out for you except you. Actually, everyone's more willing to throw you under the bus to save their own asses. So, as commendable your righteous indignation may be, I don't the risks are worth it.

 

[bigindian4891]

For those of you telling OP to ignore it, I think some of you would think quite differently if this happened at your school.

 

[getdown]

For those of you telling OP to ignore it, I think some of you would think quite differently if this happened at your school.

Not really. Something similar happened at my med school. Same basic response from the admin. I moved on.

 

[sella.turcica]

the press, etc.

CNN or Fox?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

CNN or Fox?

I was thinking more local channels but I like your style, go big or go home. I say send it to both and see what happens.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Turning yourself into a martyr can go wrong pretty quick when it's you versus the massive administration with massive resources. Remember that time you farted in anatomy lab? You might be placed under such scrutiny, that the tiniest lapse would get you booted from school. If this is a risk you are willing to accept, then go ahead and act as a whistle-blower. It is noble doing the right thing. But at the same time, keeping quiet on the sidelines would be the safest bet for your future.

When I took my concealed carry course, I learned about lawful and unlawful use of your firearm for self defense. The instructor threw the term "judge, jury, and executioner" quite a bit. It really put things into perspective for me, and that you can't just go around and shooting whoever you believe should be shot all nilly willy, and get away with it. It sounds like the school is aware (judge), they said not to cheat (jury), and maybe they sent a warning or some other slap on the wrist (executioner). Although you may have expected them to be expelled, this is not what the school wanted. If you attempt to take the process into your hands, it is uncertain what would happen.

Do you believe in any higher powers (aside from LCME)? They are Prometric and then later on the federal government.

As for Prometric, they will not be able to cheat on the Step. Since they are top students, I don't think they would have intended to cheat anyhow (or would at least not be able to). So let's skip over to the federal government.

As for the federal government, these students may partake in something called Medicare fraud. I saw a lot of that in Chicago. Although they will probably not harm patients directly, they may up-code and take part in fraudulent billing. The government doesn't look too kindly upon this, and they will go to prison and face massive penalties.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

you are right in the larger picture of things. i'm not arguing that.

i'm surprsied so few people here have thoughts on what the school is doing in sweeping this under the rug. as colleagues and future colleagues why aren't more people surprised at the actions of a US MD school's administration? i would think more people would want hte school to do the right thing and expel the students.

is anyone surprised by the actions of the school? or would one expect this treatment bc some of these replies have me thinking i'm the idiot in being outraged by this action when this may have been expected considering that there were so many students cheating and they were all top performers

I'm surprised at absolutely nothing.

I have very low expectations for people. Maybe that's why I'm content. I just strive to do the best I can do within my power.

Maybe back in the day, I would be more proactive, but whistleblower protection is the biggest crock of ****. Whistleblowers get the long end of the **** stick. Unless you're 100% prepared for the consequences, administration will **** you up if you mess with their reputation ($$$).

Once you're out in the real world practicing, have bills to pay you'll quickly realize that no one really is out there looking out for you except you. Actually, everyone's more willing to throw you under the bus to save their own asses. So, as commendable your righteous indignation may be, I don't the risks are worth it.

This x1000.

You best protect ya neck

 

[curbsideconsult]

You both are medical students and still sheltered within the confines of the Ivory Tower. Once you're out in the real world practicing, have bills to pay you'll quickly realize that no one really is out there looking out for you except you. Actually, everyone's more willing to throw you under the bus to save their own asses. So, as commendable your righteous indignation may be, I don't the risks are worth it.

You seem to be making the assumption that I haven't lived in the real world nor dealt with people who are willing to sacrifice others for their own needs nor have seen humanity at their worst through the actions of people close to me (including myself). I choose to not let these experiences keep me from trying to do the right thing. I'm not saying I always do the right thing, hence my use of "we" in response to you.

The other assumption that many people in this thread seem to be making is that telling the truth = sticking out your neck to risk beheading. I never told OP to risk his future career, but maybe I should have been more explicit about that. I fully agree that we all need to look out for number one and protect ourselves. If we don't do that, how can we be fully functional to do what we're going to med school for?: taking care of patients. There are ways to inform the powers that be of what is going on without putting one's self in the line of fire. This is not necessarily an either/or situation.

 

[getdown]

You seem to be making the assumption that I haven't lived in the real world nor dealt with people who are willing to sacrifice others for their own needs nor have seen humanity at their worst through the actions of people close to me (including myself). I choose to not let these experiences keep me from trying to do the right thing. I'm not saying I always do the right thing, hence my use of "we" in response to you.

The other assumption that many people in this thread seem to be making is that telling the truth = sticking out your neck to risk beheading. I never told OP to risk his future career, but maybe I should have been more explicit about that. I fully agree that we all need to look out for number one and protect ourselves. If we don't do that, how can we be fully functional to do what we're going to med school for?: taking care of patients. There are ways to inform the powers that be of what is going on without putting one's self in the line of fire. This is not necessarily an either/or situation.

The school already knows and they don't seem to want to do anything about it. The rest of the suggestions here about going to LCME, newspaper, CNN opens up OP to significant retaliation from the administration. Like I said before, if the school didn't know then inform them but since they do know continuing to pester them about it won't do you any good.

 

[operaman]

I’m afraid that I have to side with the school here based on the info in this thread. It pains me to say that because I believe cheating merits expulsion, but I don’t think the school has truly actionable proof.

While screenshots and copies of emails may seem like enough, they are too easily faked and dismissing the students on these grounds would open the school to some serious liability. You can rest assured that administration had some talks with the legal department about how to handle things. They interviewed the accused and they all apparently denied it. They send an email about academic integrity and will likely revamp future testing procedures to prevent future dishonesty. Sadly, this is the best they could do under the circumstances.

Let’s say they wanted to investigate and really nail these arses. How? There’s no state or federal crime so you can’t really tap into the investigative resources of law enforcement. There’s no grand jury process to depose witnesses. Absent some sort of legal proceeding the school can’t get server logs from ISPs or access to email accounts, no search warrants or subpoenas to seize laptops and phones. Yes if they used school IT resources there may be a smoking gun but I think anyone taking that kind of career risk would be smart enough to cover their tracks. Maybe you could do some analysis of exam performance but at best that just gives some weak circumstantial evidence.

So without truly solid proof they have done the only prudent thing. Yes it sucks but I don’t see what the school could have done differently. I don’t think trying to litigate this in the press or online will do anything other than open the whistleblower up to defamation suits from the accused and/or sanctions from the school.