Are top schools the best choice

[Mr. Tee]

I was just wondering why people with crappy stats are so cynical towards top schools... to say that there is no difference in intelligence between the population at a state med school and washu or hopkins, where some kids score higher in just 2 sections of their mcat than total scores from state schools.

Hey Rey, what about the state of California. There's no difference in intelligence between UCSF and WashU students, wouldn't you say?

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[dr_90210]

Hey Rey, what about the state of California. There's no difference in intelligence between UCSF and WashU students, wouldn't you say?

i think when most ppl use the phrase "state med school" vs top 10, they mean the crappy ones that they can actually get into.

additionally, Law2doc, u say that there is no difference between ppl who make straight As and ppl who made mostly As... I agree, there is none. But ppl with 3.3 GPAs can get into med schools. 3.3 gpa is not mostly As... its mostly Bs. And additionally, the kids who get 2.9 gpas and do post bacc... thats mostly Bs and some Cs. They also get into med school (maybe after their 5th time applying, [you can usually tell who those kids are because they have over 5000 posts on sdn and think that ECs>>>>>>>>>stats]).

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

Hey Rey, what about the state of California. There's no difference in intelligence between UCSF and WashU students, wouldn't you say?

That's sort of an exception, because UCSF (and UWash) are top-10 schools that are also state schools. I think most people are talking about non-top10 state schools in this context.

If you expand your definition of "top school" to top-20, there are even more state schools included (UCLA, UMich, UCSD, Pitt (?), UTSW, and UNC)

All else being equal, I'd say go with the top school over the lower ranked school, but, of course, all else is not equal. School choice is a tradeoff between cost/price, research opportunities, clinical facilities/opportunities, location, as well as name. It seems prudent to go to the highest ranked school that you would actually LIKE to attend (forget about ranking for a minute -- identify the schools that you would like to attend, and then order them according to rank.) Just my opinion.

 

[Law2Doc]

i think when most ppl use the phrase "state med school" vs top 10, they mean the crappy ones that they can actually get into.

additionally, Law2doc, u say that there is no difference between ppl who make straight As and ppl who made mostly As... I agree, there is none. But ppl with 3.3 GPAs can get into med schools. 3.3 gpa is not mostly As... its mostly Bs. And additionally, the kids who get 2.9 gpas and do post bacc... thats mostly Bs and some Cs. They also get into med school (maybe after their 5th time applying, [you can usually tell who those kids are because they have over 5000 posts on sdn and think that ECs>>>>>>>>>stats]).

The average GPA at the middle of the pack med schools the OP was describing is higher than a 3.3. The average for such schools is more like a 3.5-3.6, hence mostly A's. (he said "reasonable medium schools"). Not that I think you will be at the top of any school if you choose it because you hope it is "easier". It doesn't work that way.
Every med school is going to have some range, and the difference from one to another is not as drastic as you might think looking at the US News rank.
And I wouldn't underestimate the postbacs -- someone who overcame early bad grades and comes to med school with a long string of A's in a postbac is not always going to be the bottom of your med school class. People peak at different times, and folks who show up to med school on a streak of A's are as competitive as anyone.

(If you are trying to imply something about me based on my post count I'm afraid you aren't even in the ballpark. )

 

[somemaybedoc]

Doing well in high school gets you into a prestigious undergrad, which according to some here allows you to get into a prestigious med school with an OK application, which will allow you to get into a top residency with OK boards. Doesn't seem too logical to determine where someone can do their residency based on how well they did in HS, it just wouldn't be a good predictor of performance.

The most direct assessment of future performance is the most recent indicator. Those indicators are grades/evaluations, adjusted for school difficulty and test scores (MCAT or Step 1, depending on what level we're talking about.)

Sure if you have nothing else to go on you may as well use the more distant indicators of performance such as the prestige of their undergrad or med school, but these indicators are fundamentally more removed from the future performance that the administration is trying to evaluate.

That's what makes sense to me, I'm not a PD or adcom so I have no idea if their system would make sense to me.

 

[somemaybedoc]

That's sort of an exception, because UCSF (and UWash) are top-10 schools that are also state schools. I think most people are talking about non-top10 state schools in this context.

I see Baylor as a state school in all but name.

 

[psipsina]

i think when most ppl use the phrase "state med school" vs top 10, they mean the crappy ones that they can actually get into.

The fact that you feel that you can apply the term "crappy" as a descriptor of any US allopathic medical school speaks volumes to where you are in this process. Its pretty pretencious to put down any medical school when you haven't even matriculated yet. You have much to learn young one.

The only major difference big name schools may have is access to a larger variety of research projects and access to some big name faculty to write you letters. I'm not into research enuf to have a greater variety to choose from be worth an extra 120K, . . I can do research at my school that I find interesting which is all I really care about. The second aspect is as easy to fix as a few well timed and well chosen away rotations in your fourth year. Yet again a much better option than an extra 120K for me, as most students do them anyways unless their top choice match is at their institution itself. When you get further along in the process you will realize that medschool is pretty much all on you, you choose what books to buy and whether or not you will read them, you choose whether you attend lectures, you choose wheather you put in the extra 10 hours a week in the gross lab to edge up your grade a few points, you choose how you study for the usmles . . . really nothing is handed to you ever again. . . no matter what school you go to. Your faculty will be supportive of you as you self teach medicine and help you when you hit the many walls along the way, but its not like you're going to get better spoonfeedings at a top10 than at a school ranked 60th, because neither is going to spoonfeed you anything. Its all about you, and you will be you regardless of which institution you end up being affiliated with.

 

[Towelie]

The average GPA at the middle of the pack med schools the OP was describing is higher than a 3.3. The average for such schools is more like a 3.5-3.6, hence mostly A's. (he said "reasonable medium schools"). Not that I think you will be at the top of any school if you choose it because you hope it is "easier". It doesn't work that way.
Every med school is going to have some range, and the difference from one to another is not as drastic as you might think looking at the US News rank.
And I wouldn't underestimate the postbacs -- someone who overcame early bad grades and comes to med school with a long string of A's in a postbac is not always going to be the bottom of your med school class. People peak at different times, and folks who show up to med school on a streak of A's are as competitive as anyone.

(If you are trying to imply something about me based on my post count I'm afraid you aren't even in the ballpark. )

Law2Doc, where do you go to med school? I'm just curious to see how biased your arguments are.

Your post count is kind of freakish. 😱 Do you ever see daylight?

 

[Guile]

Law2Doc, where do you go to med school? I'm just curious to see how biased your arguments are.

Your post count is kind of freakish. 😱 Do you ever see daylight?

Have you seen mshheaddoc's post count? 29,000 the last time I saw it. Incredible.

The new trailer looks amazing. Can't wait for the new season of 24 to start. I've been suffering through Grey's until then....

 

[solitude]

A few points:

I think there is a significant difference between med students at top-10 schools and med students at bottom-tier schools. If the differences were small, adcoms would essentially disregard GPA and MCAT as long as they were passable (say 3.3 and high 20's), and make their decisions based solely on other characteristics to obtain the best physicians, but we know this is not the case. I do not believe that adcoms institute these inflated GPA/MCAT criteria solely as a mechanism for selecting from the piles of applicants, but rather, because they are reflective of the ability to succeed as a physician (and I don't want to hear all the statistical MCAT/USLME crap again because I'm not talking about just one correlation).

The same argument applies for residency directors selecting students from top med schools. There is a reason that they favor applicants from these schools (and I can tell you anecdotally that at least some do, having confirmed this to me) and it is because, on the average, they are better physicians. People have repeatedly mentioned that "name only matters if you want to go into academics". Well, get this, people: top-flight residency programs are almost unilaterally affiliated with academic institutions. Residency directors at these programs are trying to train fledgling academics, and consequently they value one's academic pedigree. I know, shocking. This isn't to say that an applicant can't make it into these programs from lower-ranked schools (as many anecdotes will confirm), only that they are at a distinct disadvantage in the process, just like the guy from Joe Schmoe U applying to Harvard for medical school.

Finally, the one thing missing from this thread is that nobody seems to value the intrinsic value of medical education, and education in general. People can wax poetic about cost and residency chances, etc. But in the end, some people do what it takes to obtain the best education possible and others don't. And if you don't, you might just regret it for the rest of your life.

 

[dr_90210]

A few points:

I think there is a significant difference between med students at top-10 schools and med students at bottom-tier schools. If the differences were small, adcoms would essentially disregard GPA and MCAT as long as they were passable (say 3.3 and high 20's), and make their decisions based solely on other characteristics to obtain the best physicians, but we know this is not the case. I do not believe that adcoms institute these inflated GPA/MCAT criteria solely as a mechanism for selecting from the piles of applicants, but rather, because they are reflective of the ability to succeed as a physician (and I don't want to hear all the statistical MCAT/USLME crap again because I'm not talking about just one correlation).

The same argument applies for residency directors selecting students from top med schools. There is a reason that they favor applicants from these schools (and I can tell you anecdotally that at least some do, having confirmed this to me) and it is because, on the average, they are better physicians. People have repeatedly mentioned that "name only matters if you want to go into academics". Well, get this, people: top-flight residency programs are almost unilaterally affiliated with academic institutions. Residency directors at these programs are trying to train fledgling academics, and consequently they value one's academic pedigree. I know, shocking. This isn't to say that an applicant can't make it into these programs from lower-ranked schools (as many anecdotes will confirm), only that they are at a distinct disadvantage in the process, just like the guy from Joe Schmoe U applying to Harvard for medical school.

Finally, the one thing missing from this thread is that nobody seems to value the intrinsic value of medical education, and education in general. People can wax poetic about cost and residency chances, etc. But in the end, some people do what it takes to obtain the best education possible and others don't. And if you don't, you might just regret it for the rest of your life.

👍 👍 👍

finally, a person with the ability to get into a top school shedding light;
law2doc, how is the weather in the carribs?

 

[psipsina]

A few points:

I think there is a significant difference between med students at top-10 schools and med students at bottom-tier schools. If the differences were small, adcoms would essentially disregard GPA and MCAT as long as they were passable (say 3.3 and high 20's), and make their decisions based solely on other characteristics to obtain the best physicians, but we know this is not the case. I do not believe that adcoms institute these inflated GPA/MCAT criteria solely as a mechanism for selecting from the piles of applicants, but rather, because they are reflective of the ability to succeed as a physician (and I don't want to hear all the statistical MCAT/USLME crap again because I'm not talking about just one correlation).

The same argument applies for residency directors selecting students from top med schools. There is a reason that they favor applicants from these schools (and I can tell you anecdotally that at least some do, having confirmed this to me) and it is because, on the average, they are better physicians. People have repeatedly mentioned that "name only matters if you want to go into academics". Well, get this, people: top-flight residency programs are almost unilaterally affiliated with academic institutions. Residency directors at these programs are trying to train fledgling academics, and consequently they value one's academic pedigree. I know, shocking. This isn't to say that an applicant can't make it into these programs from lower-ranked schools (as many anecdotes will confirm), only that they are at a distinct disadvantage in the process, just like the guy from Joe Schmoe U applying to Harvard for medical school.

Finally, the one thing missing from this thread is that nobody seems to value the intrinsic value of medical education, and education in general. People can wax poetic about cost and residency chances, etc. But in the end, some people do what it takes to obtain the best education possible and others don't. And if you don't, you might just regret it for the rest of your life.

What I think your missing, which is entirely understandable because you aren't here yet, is that the majority of your basic sciences medschool learning is going to be done on your own with resources you found on your own . . . I certainly didn't get it until I was in the thick of medschool but thats just how it is. And I know people at top 10s who do the same thing. The quality of your education will be no different. The only thing that top schools have to offer are connections and these can be arranged during your fourth year via away rotations.

The top ten get these higher numbers because gullible premeds fall for your line of thinking every year, so they get to be picky. And sure to some extent previous MCAT performance correlates with USMLE performance, though this isn't a rocksolid coorelation you can depend upon as an individual (you can check out the usmle thread for some kids with "crappy" mcats who rocked out the usmle harder than most of us can ever hope to, and I'm sure there are some top mcaters who bombed the USMLE, though I doubt their posting with pride on SDN about it). Adcoms like people who pass usmles because accredidation rides on a school's pass rate. But to state that great clinicians have great mcats is preposterous. Most people I know with stellar mcats have the personality of a rock, and all your scientific knowledge means jack if your patient feels alienated and won't tell you pertinent diagnostif info. Please find me the data that proves that high mcats make good clinicians. But I digress . . . plenty of top minds don't fall for this line of crap and go to their state schools, so its not like state schools are filled with *****s who couldn't make it to Haaarrvvaad, and its not like mcats are even indicative of whether or not you have a top mind. Someone recently dropped out of my medschool class who from what I hear looked friggin great on paper, they just didn't adjust well, great premed stats don't make you a great medstudent automatically.

Finally, making your medschool choice based on your percieved advantage in a "top residency" is frankly laughable. Its great to aim high, but only a very small fraction of all the brilliant pre-med minds reading this forum are going to be in a position to apply for these "top residencies". Sure, you could be that stellar superstar medstudent, but statistically you're not. Most of us arrive at medschool only to find that we're really pretty average, or gasp below average, once were competing within a group of some friggin brilliant hardworkin people. I know this is pretty inconcievable to y'all right now . . . but maybe you might want to listen to all the jaded medstudents who have said this a thousand times on SDN . . .

Anyways, this post isn't really to try to change your mind, cause frankly I don't care if you're too full of yourself to listen to a bunch of people who are currently in the thick of medschool and just maybe know sumthing useful, but instead it is for the other young malleable premed minds who are reading this thread, know that you don't have to shell out a quarter of a million dollars to get a quality education or quality opportunities. If you can get into your state school go there. This is advice given to me by countless clinicians and residency directors and my experiences in a "crappy" state medschool have only proven it thus far.

 

[R.P. McMurphy]

And if you don't, you might just regret it for the rest of your life.

super depressing dude. Should I just slit my wrist if I don't get into Duke?

 

[Smokey]

People tend to support ideas that make themselves look good. People from big-name schools (or pre-meds with the possiblity of going to one) will say "oh hell yeah, it matters." People going to schools outside these crazy places will say "nope, doesn't matter at all, it's all on you." Who's right? Who knows? Probably somewhere in the middle. Life is all about balance, folks.

 

[Guile]

A few points:

I think there is a significant difference between med students at top-10 schools and med students at bottom-tier schools. If the differences were small, adcoms would essentially disregard GPA and MCAT as long as they were passable (say 3.3 and high 20's), and make their decisions based solely on other characteristics to obtain the best physicians, but we know this is not the case. I do not believe that adcoms institute these inflated GPA/MCAT criteria solely as a mechanism for selecting from the piles of applicants, but rather, because they are reflective of the ability to succeed as a physician (and I don't want to hear all the statistical MCAT/USLME crap again because I'm not talking about just one correlation).

The same argument applies for residency directors selecting students from top med schools. There is a reason that they favor applicants from these schools (and I can tell you anecdotally that at least some do, having confirmed this to me) and it is because, on the average, they are better physicians. People have repeatedly mentioned that "name only matters if you want to go into academics". Well, get this, people: top-flight residency programs are almost unilaterally affiliated with academic institutions. Residency directors at these programs are trying to train fledgling academics, and consequently they value one's academic pedigree. I know, shocking. This isn't to say that an applicant can't make it into these programs from lower-ranked schools (as many anecdotes will confirm), only that they are at a distinct disadvantage in the process, just like the guy from Joe Schmoe U applying to Harvard for medical school.

Finally, the one thing missing from this thread is that nobody seems to value the intrinsic value of medical education, and education in general. People can wax poetic about cost and residency chances, etc. But in the end, some people do what it takes to obtain the best education possible and others don't. And if you don't, you might just regret it for the rest of your life.

Hey buddy, I can see that you're still making negative comments about so-called "bottom tiered" medical schools and how we're going to be poorer physicians. I can remember you and MWillie crapping on state schools quite well in a thread a while ago. But you know what, YOU TOO can wax poetic about academic pedigrees and the ilk, but the proof is in the pudding.

Take, for instance, Bascom Palmer's match list. Now, those of us familiar with you know how you have wet dreams about this place, and I think it was your dad who went there and is now a PD at Duke and how it's supposedly the hardest residency to match into. Well, I'm really surprised that your dad of all people would stoop so low to train alongside lowly physicians from state schools. The chief residents? Where did they go? Harvard you must thinking. Hopkins perhaps. Maybe Duke, nah...probably not. That's ranked a little low for Bascom Palmer's taste. Nope! Ohio State University and the Medical College of Georgia (my state school actually which I'm heavily considering going to). And if you look at the rest of the residents, only a small minority went to top schools! In fact, there's a first-year who graduated from University of Northern Iowa for his BA. He didn't even get a BS. And Univ. of Northern Iowa? Who's heard of that? Boy, his academic pedigree is holding him back.

Now, you tell me. Does it look like Bascom Palmer--you know, according to you, the hardest residency to match in--strongly favors graduates from top schools? Please, tell me what I'm supposed to make of this evidence, because as someone who wants to go to his state school over a top 20 school, I'm probably not intelligent enough to comprehend it.

 

[Towelie]

Hey buddy, I can see that you're still making negative comments about so-called "bottom tiered" medical schools and how we're going to be poorer physicians. I can remember you and MWillie crapping on state schools quite well in a thread a while ago. But you know what, YOU TOO can wax poetic about academic pedigrees and the ilk, but the proof is in the pudding.

Take, for instance, Bascom Palmer's match list. Now, those of us familiar with you know how you have wet dreams about this place, and I think it was your dad who went there and is now a PD at Duke and how it's supposedly the hardest residency to match into. Well, I'm really surprised that your dad of all people would stoop so low to train alongside lowly physicians from state schools. The chief residents? Where did they go? Harvard you must thinking. Hopkins perhaps. Maybe Duke, nah...probably not. That's ranked a little low for Bascom Palmer's taste. Nope! Ohio State University and the Medical College of Georgia (my state school actually which I'm heavily considering going to). And if you look at the rest of the residents, only a small minority went to top schools! In fact, there's a first-year who graduated from University of Northern Iowa for his BA. He didn't even get a BS. And Univ. of Northern Iowa? Who's heard of that? Boy, his academic pedigree is holding him back.

Now, you tell me. Does it look like Bascom Palmer--you know, according to you, the hardest residency to match in--strongly favors graduates from top schools? Please, tell me what I'm supposed to make of this evidence, because as someone who wants to go to his state school over a top 20 school, I'm probably not intelligent enough to comprehend it.

There are seven first year Optho residents at Bascom Palmer. Three of them went to top schools. That's over 40%. Among second year residents, 5 out of 7 went to top schools. They certainly seem to be favoring graduates of top schools to me.

 

[Law2Doc]

👍 👍 👍

finally, a person with the ability to get into a top school shedding light;
law2doc, how is the weather in the carribs?

ROFL.
Dude, when you actually get into med school, THEN you can come back and insult others. Till then you are really at the bottom of the food chain.

FWIW I didn't hear solitude suggest that the same person who was at the bottom of a top program would be at the top of a "reasonable medium" tier school (the OP's question).

 

[coco11]

I love it how these pre-meds think they know everything about med school and prestige. Ask attendings what they think. It's no accident that the farther out people are from med school, the less and less med school name matters. The older people are, the more they will tell you to go to the cheapest place you got into because your debt is going to matter more than the name on your diploma. (Now of course in response to the earlier question, with equal cost of attendance, why would you not go to the more prestigious school unless you hated it?)

Case in point: Duke's surgical resident list. Let's give it look-see, shall we?

Orthopedics: U of Cincinnati (people are told to apply there if your stats are low), Rush (ditto), U of Vermont (ditto), New York Medical College, (WHERE ARE ALL THE PRESTIGIOUS MEDICAL SCHOOLS?!?!), and Albany Medical College. There were 3 from top 10 schools. 3 out of 8. Maybe there were only 3 people from top schools who wanted to go to Duke ortho--you know one of the top programs in the country. Or maybe your school's name doesn't hold you back....

(Examples from the match list abound and are too numerous to list here. Of the 3 neurosurgery residents at Duke, one was from Medical College of Georgia, one from SUNY-Syracuse, and the other from Duke. 67% from state schools not in the top 50. But, nope, gotta go to the top med school to match well!)

maybe i'm a little biased since i just got accepted there, but cinci is a good school. it's ranked in the low 40's (not that that matters that much, but at least it's ranked), and they have a large proportion of their graduates matching into competitive specialties. they also have a great EM program. i'm not sure what you're trying to say.

 

[beetlerum]

Hey buddy, I can see that you're still making negative comments about so-called "bottom tiered" medical schools and how we're going to be poorer physicians. I can remember you and MWillie crapping on state schools quite well in a thread a while ago. But you know what, YOU TOO can wax poetic about academic pedigrees and the ilk, but the proof is in the pudding.

Take, for instance, Bascom Palmer's match list. Now, those of us familiar with you know how you have wet dreams about this place, and I think it was your dad who went there and is now a PD at Duke and how it's supposedly the hardest residency to match into. Well, I'm really surprised that your dad of all people would stoop so low to train alongside lowly physicians from state schools. The chief residents? Where did they go? Harvard you must thinking. Hopkins perhaps. Maybe Duke, nah...probably not. That's ranked a little low for Bascom Palmer's taste. Nope! Ohio State University and the Medical College of Georgia (my state school actually which I'm heavily considering going to). And if you look at the rest of the residents, only a small minority went to top schools! In fact, there's a first-year who graduated from University of Northern Iowa for his BA. He didn't even get a BS. And Univ. of Northern Iowa? Who's heard of that? Boy, his academic pedigree is holding him back.

Now, you tell me. Does it look like Bascom Palmer--you know, according to you, the hardest residency to match in--strongly favors graduates from top schools? Please, tell me what I'm supposed to make of this evidence, because as someone who wants to go to his state school over a top 20 school, I'm probably not intelligent enough to comprehend it.

Relax, no one is saying that it is impossible for a state grad to match into a very competitive residency. So your anecdotes are irrelevant. The argument is that, with equal stats, going to a top school will give you a big boost.

 

[Guile]

There are seven first year Optho residents at Bascom Palmer. Three of them went to top schools. That's over 40%. Among second year residents, 5 out of 7 went to top schools. They certainly seem to be favoring graduates of top schools to me.

It's simply self-selection. If you took the top 10% of USLME scores, more of those scorers would be found in the top 10% of med schools since the people attending there are the most qualified med school applicants in the country (majority anyway) and will for the most part have the highest scores. However, in that 10% of USMLE scores, you'll also have scorers from state schools, and those people make up the state school graduates who match well. That's why those numbers are so shocking. It should be 80-90% of the residents that are there come from top schools.

All I'm trying to say is that your school name is not going to hold you back. If you want to match at a top school, it's incumbent on you to do the work and earn the spot. Your top school won't get you there. I see that you were accepted at JHU. Congrats. It's a great school, and you had to have worked hard to get there. But when you graduate and go to your great residency, there will be guys there who went to state schools right alongside you who are $150K less in debt than you. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Guile]

maybe i'm a little biased since i just got accepted there, but cinci is a good school. it's ranked in the low 40's (not that that matters that much, but at least it's ranked), and they have a large proportion of their graduates matching into competitive specialties. they also have a great EM program. i'm not sure what you're trying to say.

All US med schools are good schools. All I was trying to say was that it's not a top school.

 

[Reimat]

While I agree with most of your post, bear in mind that there isn't a perfect correlation with the top schools posting the top board scores.

Yea, my bad - I meant to say avg mcat scores

 

[Guile]

Relax, no one is saying that it is impossible for a state grad to match into a very competitive residency. So your anecdotes are irrelevant. The argument is that, with equal stats, going to a top school will give you a big boost.

No, people are arguing that state schools turn out crappy docs, and that's simply not true. And it's not true that a residency will take someone from a state school over an Ivy guy with the same stats. They will take the one who isn't a pr!ck because they're going to be working with him 80+ hours/week for 3-5 years.

 

[psipsina]

ROFL.
Dude, when you actually get into med school, THEN you can come back and insult others. Till then you are really at the bottom of the food chain.

FWIW I didn't hear solitude suggest that the same person who was at the bottom of a top program would be at the top of a "reasonable medium" tier school (the OP's question).

Serioiusly, you can't insult others until not only have you actually matriculated at a medical school, but you have survived your first semester. Untill you've been chin deep in the muck you really have no frame of reference to judge your collegues by. You have no idea where you will stand once you are in the game, you may just be warming the bench.

 

[Law2Doc]

They will take the one who isn't a pr!ck because they're going to be working with him 80+ hours/week for 3-5 years.

Interviews, references and word of mouth certainly do play a bigger role in residency matching than med school admissions. You can never really get away from your personality in a service oriented profession. 🙂

 

[somemaybedoc]

Finally, the one thing missing from this thread is that nobody seems to value the intrinsic value of medical education, and education in general. People can wax poetic about cost and residency chances, etc. But in the end, some people do what it takes to obtain the best education possible and others don't. And if you don't, you might just regret it for the rest of your life.

I don't know what it is about Duke undergrads, but of all the people I know from the top schools you guys are the most dogmatically attached to the importance of institutional prestige; maybe it's my nonrandom sample, but do you care to shed some light?

Many PD's at prestigious programs are not graduates of top 10 medical schools

Do you really think that one does not have to opportunity to learn the same things at an average state school that one would learn at a Top 10?

The importance of prestige to PD's and admissions types is one thing, but accusing the non top 10 schools of providing an inferior education, you should back that up.

 

[Dookter]

However, I still think that there is less of a burden on your shoulders in getting some of these "tough" residencies if you're at a top school. I mean, look at Harvard's match list--over 50% of their students stay and go to Harvard's residencies. Those students can't all be killing the boards--some of them must be getting in because they're Harvard students.

I think this has to be true. I know I have looked at last year's match list here at Duke, and it is pretty incredible. 33 kids matched at Duke. When you add in Harvard and all the other big names, a TON of the class went somewhere impressive. I think Duke generally has good board averages. And we do have a full year of research built into the curriculum, so that might be a leg up for big research oriented hospitals. But still, 33 kids matching at Duke?? I think the name and affiliation help a lot. But that is the case everywhere....I purposely chose a school I could see myself being at for a long time [med school, residency, etc.] I think most schools keep their own students as residents preferably. That being said, since statistically you have the greatest chance of getting into a residency where you go to med school, make sure it is someplace you can be happy!

 

[Towelie]

It's simply self-selection. If you took the top 10% of USLME scores, more of those scorers would be found in the top 10% of med schools since the people attending there are the most qualified med school applicants in the country (majority anyway) and will for the most part have the highest scores. However, in that 10% of USMLE scores, you'll also have scorers from state schools, and those people make up the state school graduates who match well. That's why those numbers are so shocking. It should be 80-90% of the residents that are there come from top schools.

All I'm trying to say is that your school name is not going to hold you back. If you want to match at a top school, it's incumbent on you to do the work and earn the spot. Your top school won't get you there. I see that you were accepted at JHU. Congrats. It's a great school, and you had to have worked hard to get there. But when you graduate and go to your great residency, there will be guys there who went to state schools right alongside you who are $150K less in debt than you. That's all I'm saying.

I totally agree with everything you said. Your school name will not hold you back. But I do think that you might have to work a little harder to get those "tough" residencies from a lower tiered school than you would from a top school (emphasis on "a little"). Not that it wouldn't be worth it to save $150K. 😛

I think, as you seem to, that people should go to school where they think they will be happy, regardless of name and "prestige." However, I still think that there is less of a burden on your shoulders in getting some of these "tough" residencies if you're at a top school. I mean, look at Harvard's match list--over 50% of their students stay and go to Harvard's residencies. Those students can't all be killing the boards--some of them must be getting in because they're Harvard students.

 

[R.P. McMurphy]

I don't know what it is about Duke undergrads, but of all the people I know from the top schools you guys are the most dogmatically attached to the importance of institutional prestige; maybe it's my nonrandom sample, but do you care to shed some light?

Many PD's at prestigious programs are not graduates of top 10 medical schools

Do you really think that one does not have to opportunity to learn the same things at an average state school that one would learn at a Top 10?

The importance of prestige to PD's and admissions types is one thing, but accusing the non top 10 schools of providing an inferior education, you should back that up.

This is what happens when you invest your every second into academics.....you tend to be deeply concerned about that prestige *points at solitude's mdapps link*🙂

 

[Mr. Tee]

super depressing dude. Should I just slit my wrist if I don't get into Duke?

Oh well, can you settle for UNC Chapel Hill?

 

[Guile]

Oh well, can you settle for UNC Chapel Hill?

I see you changed your name...I wonder if the 2700+ posts had something to do with the rules being bent...

 

[Zymogen]

top school because then you are a better and cooler person

 

[solitude]

This is what happens when you invest your every second into academics.....you tend to be deeply concerned about that prestige *points at solitude's mdapps link*🙂

I guess you didn't read the part about hobbies, because I have those, and a girlfriend, too. 🙄

 

[Mr. Tee]

I see you changed your name...I wonder if the 2700+ posts had something to do with the rules being bent...

Please be more explicit and tell me what's on your mind.

 

[solitude]

OK OK, you're a first or second year medical student and I'm sure you have soooo much more knowledge than me about medical school. Right. Don't you dare condescend to me like that. I've spent my whole life around universities, medical schools, and academics (physicians and otherwise). Sorry, but I think you misjudged your audience.

It also doesn't look like you read my post very closely. I never claimed (and don't claim) that every individual will become a better physician by going to the better med school or getting better MCATs, only that, on average, these are indicative of better physicians. I should add in passing that my comments are really only made in the context of academic medicine since anybody can be a decent FP in my book.

What I think your missing, which is entirely understandable because you aren't here yet, is that the majority of your basic sciences medschool learning is going to be done on your own with resources you found on your own . . . I certainly didn't get it until I was in the thick of medschool but thats just how it is. And I know people at top 10s who do the same thing. The quality of your education will be no different. The only thing that top schools have to offer are connections and these can be arranged during your fourth year via away rotations.

The top ten get these higher numbers because gullible premeds fall for your line of thinking every year, so they get to be picky. And sure to some extent previous MCAT performance correlates with USMLE performance, though this isn't a rocksolid coorelation you can depend upon as an individual (you can check out the usmle thread for some kids with "crappy" mcats who rocked out the usmle harder than most of us can ever hope to, and I'm sure there are some top mcaters who bombed the USMLE, though I doubt their posting with pride on SDN about it). Adcoms like people who pass usmles because accredidation rides on a school's pass rate. But to state that great clinicians have great mcats is preposterous. Most people I know with stellar mcats have the personality of a rock, and all your scientific knowledge means jack if your patient feels alienated and won't tell you pertinent diagnostif info. Please find me the data that proves that high mcats make good clinicians. But I digress . . . plenty of top minds don't fall for this line of crap and go to their state schools, so its not like state schools are filled with *****s who couldn't make it to Haaarrvvaad, and its not like mcats are even indicative of whether or not you have a top mind. Someone recently dropped out of my medschool class who from what I hear looked friggin great on paper, they just didn't adjust well, great premed stats don't make you a great medstudent automatically.

Finally, making your medschool choice based on your percieved advantage in a "top residency" is frankly laughable. Its great to aim high, but only a very small fraction of all the brilliant pre-med minds reading this forum are going to be in a position to apply for these "top residencies". Sure, you could be that stellar superstar medstudent, but statistically you're not. Most of us arrive at medschool only to find that we're really pretty average, or gasp below average, once were competing within a group of some friggin brilliant hardworkin people. I know this is pretty inconcievable to y'all right now . . . but maybe you might want to listen to all the jaded medstudents who have said this a thousand times on SDN . . .

Anyways, this post isn't really to try to change your mind, cause frankly I don't care if you're too full of yourself to listen to a bunch of people who are currently in the thick of medschool and just maybe know sumthing useful, but instead it is for the other young malleable premed minds who are reading this thread, know that you don't have to shell out a quarter of a million dollars to get a quality education or quality opportunities. If you can get into your state school go there. This is advice given to me by countless clinicians and residency directors and my experiences in a "crappy" state medschool have only proven it thus far.

 

[solitude]

I guess they don't require reading at your medical school either, because it doesn't look like you read my post. Never in my post did I make negative comments about so-called "bottom tiered" medical schools. I did suggest that going to a top school will help one get ahead in residency, and will give one a better education, but those aren't negative comments about bottom-tiered schools. Let's face it: there is some inequality in medical school education, as there is inequality in everything. I would argue that so-called "top-tier" medical schools on the average, and for the average medical student, provide a better education. This is really is an axiomatic argument so I won't change your mind and you won't change mine, and there's no need to argue about it. But it does justify my comments.

Somebody already addressed the Bascom Palmer match list. If you had read through my post, I noted that applicants from "lower tiered" med schools can still get into top residencies, just that, on the average, it's more difficult. I can tell you for a fact that despite your anecdotal evidence that there are some state med school grads at top residencies, these applicants are discriminated against at least slightly in the residency process. Sorry, but that's just the way it is, fair or not. That's not to say that applicants from these schools have NO chance at getting top residencies, as your evidence can attest. I think you took my comments, got riled up, and interpreted them as suggesting that "nobody from low-tier med schools (or undergrads) can get into top residencies", which is certainly not the case.

Glad my intelligence could make up for your logical deficiencies. Let me know how else I can help.

Hey buddy, I can see that you're still making negative comments about so-called "bottom tiered" medical schools and how we're going to be poorer physicians. I can remember you and MWillie crapping on state schools quite well in a thread a while ago. But you know what, YOU TOO can wax poetic about academic pedigrees and the ilk, but the proof is in the pudding.

Take, for instance, Bascom Palmer's match list. Now, those of us familiar with you know how you have wet dreams about this place, and I think it was your dad who went there and is now a PD at Duke and how it's supposedly the hardest residency to match into. Well, I'm really surprised that your dad of all people would stoop so low to train alongside lowly physicians from state schools. The chief residents? Where did they go? Harvard you must thinking. Hopkins perhaps. Maybe Duke, nah...probably not. That's ranked a little low for Bascom Palmer's taste. Nope! Ohio State University and the Medical College of Georgia (my state school actually which I'm heavily considering going to). And if you look at the rest of the residents, only a small minority went to top schools! In fact, there's a first-year who graduated from University of Northern Iowa for his BA. He didn't even get a BS. And Univ. of Northern Iowa? Who's heard of that? Boy, his academic pedigree is holding him back.

Now, you tell me. Does it look like Bascom Palmer--you know, according to you, the hardest residency to match in--strongly favors graduates from top schools? Please, tell me what I'm supposed to make of this evidence, because as someone who wants to go to his state school over a top 20 school, I'm probably not intelligent enough to comprehend it.

 

[solitude]

ROFL.
Dude, when you actually get into med school, THEN you can come back and insult others. Till then you are really at the bottom of the food chain.

FWIW I didn't hear solitude suggest that the same person who was at the bottom of a top program would be at the top of a "reasonable medium" tier school (the OP's question).

I wouldn't make a generalization of that sort, but if you held a gun to my head and told me to posit an answer, I would say very unlikely that a student at the bottom of a top program would be at the top of a "reasonable medium" tier school. There are simply too many variables.

 

[solitude]

All US med schools are good schools. All I was trying to say was that it's not a top school.

Agreed, all US med schools are good schools on an absolute scale. But everything is relative.

 

[solitude]

I don't know what it is about Duke undergrads, but of all the people I know from the top schools you guys are the most dogmatically attached to the importance of institutional prestige; maybe it's my nonrandom sample, but do you care to shed some light?

Many PD's at prestigious programs are not graduates of top 10 medical schools

Do you really think that one does not have to opportunity to learn the same things at an average state school that one would learn at a Top 10?

The importance of prestige to PD's and admissions types is one thing, but accusing the non top 10 schools of providing an inferior education, you should back that up.

It's my hypothesis that most humans are, as you put it, "attached to the importance of institutional prestige". Those that can't afford the "prestigious" schools, are angry/jealous that they couldn't get in, or simply don't want to sacrifice the money required to attend (not making any judgments here: could be for any reason e.g. laziness or family illness or whatever) try to distance themselves from that sentiment.

You made some wild extrapolations based on my post, and I don't feel like thoroughly refuting them.

 

[solitude]

I think, as you seem to, that people should go to school where they think they will be happy, regardless of name and "prestige."

Finally, I agree with this. If you're going to be perfectly happy at a state med school, then go there by all means. If you're going to go to your state med school and erupt in anger every time somebody suggests that your education (or research opportunities or clinical opportunities or residency director's opinion of your school or whatever) might be lower than Harvard or UCSF's, you should go to Harvard or UCSF and save yourself the anxiety.

 

[MollyMalone]

The pissing on each other needs to stop here. People are going to have varying opinions on this issue... this has nothing to do with logicial deficiencies or experience in med school per se. Cease with the personal insults.

 

[somemaybedoc]

It's my hypothesis that most humans are, as you put it, "attached to the importance of institutional prestige". Those that can't afford the "prestigious" schools, are angry/jealous that they couldn't get in, or simply don't want to sacrifice the money required to attend (not making any judgments here: could be for any reason e.g. laziness or family illness or whatever) try to distance themselves from that sentiment.

You made some wild extrapolations based on my post, and I don't feel like thoroughly refuting them.

It's part of life that institutional prestige plays a role, I think we disagree on the extent of its importance.

The reverse may be true instead; those who made the sacrifice to attend those institutions could find the idea that the investment they made might not have the yield they expected upsetting.

Choosing not to refute them is your perogative, but I can't help but believe that your statement that one group sacrifices to get the "best" education and others don't implies that the education recieved at prestigious institutions is superior and therefore graduates of other institutions are inferior.

 

[somemaybedoc]

Finally, I agree with this. If you're going to be perfectly happy at a state med school, then go there by all means. If you're going to go to your state med school and erupt in anger every time somebody suggests that your education (or research opportunities or clinical opportunities or residency director's opinion of your school or whatever) might be lower than Harvard or UCSF's, you should go to Harvard or UCSF and save yourself the anxiety.

Is it not fair for those who go to the less prestigious institutions to campaign against what they feel is an unfair label of inferiority being ascribed to them. Of course they could save themselves the grief, but in the end we should strive for a system which accurately determines the quality of candidates, rather than one that depends on a measure of competence as flawed as institutional prestige, especially since other more accurate indicators of competency exist.

 

[enigma85]

I think the point some people are trying to make is that, at the time of medical school admission, the average student at a top school is better at science than the average student at a "low-tier" school. All they're basically saying is people with a 3.80/34 are generally smarter and/or more hard-working than people with a 3.55/29. As always, there are exceptions, but I think that it's a fair statement on the whole. Certainly med school is a whole new ball game and success largely depends on working your butt off.
I don't see the point in looking at where students at top residency programs went to medical school, especially since the evidence refutes the point that is being made. Any program where over 8% (10/125) of residents are from top 10 schools shows an advantage to going to a top 10 school (the advantage probably being somewhat due to higher board scores, more connections, or prestige/quality of the medical school attended). It's better to look at the match lists from top 10 medical schools, where it's statistically more likely to obtain that cush derm residency or internal medicine at jhu. so, on average, the students who work the hardest to get the high gpa/mcat, and get into a top medical school have an advantage, partly due to being better at tests in general. i was speaking to an admissions dean from a top 5 school and she told me "our students have one of the highest step 1 scores in the nation, not because of anything we do, but because they came in intellectually prepared, good at test taking, and studious." obviously what i said doesn't apply to the top students who simply choose not to apply to top medical schools or prefer a 'lower-tier' school for financial/personal reasons. in the end, if two of the exact same residency applications were submitted/interviewed, one from ucsf and one from joe schmoe u, the ucsf person would probably have an advantage.
if you're bright and motivated enough, i'm sure any med student can be a wonderful clinician and obtain a great residency regardless of where you went to med school. i'm only saying that the students who attend top schools are generally brighter than those who attend lower-tier schools. psipsina made a comment about many "top minds" not falling for the prestige crap and choosing state schools. Consider the physicians who have won the Nobel Prize since 1960. Where did they attend medical school?

harvard (4)
hopkins (2)
washu (2)
penn (2)
columbia(2)
case western (2)
ut-southwestern (1)
nyu (1)

A very strong concentration at the top schools. as an adcom, predicting Nobel Prizes when looking at applications is probably tough, but these people must have had excellent MCAT/GPA to get into those schools. most of them don't have phds either. So..probably a noticeable relationship between mcat/gpa and probability (however low it may be) of winning a nobel prize!

i don't know what the OP was concerned about, i was just responding to some of the other posts. didn't mean to insult anyone, i certainly won't be accepted at a top 10 school with my gpa.

 

[somemaybedoc]

OK OK, you're a first or second year medical student and I'm sure you have soooo much more knowledge than me about medical school. Right. Don't you dare condescend to me like that. I've spent my whole life around universities, medical schools, and academics (physicians and otherwise). Sorry, but I think you misjudged your audience.

So violent.👎

 

[somemaybedoc]

I think the point some people are trying to make is that, at the time of medical school admission, the average student at a top school is better at science than the average student at a "low-tier" school. All they're basically saying is people with a 3.80/34 are generally smarter and/or more hard-working than people with a 3.55/29. As always, there are exceptions, but I think that it's a fair statement on the whole. Certainly med school is a whole new ball game and success largely depends on working your butt off.

I agree completely that the average person at a top school is likely better academically. My point is that generally on an individual basis there are more relavent measures available to evaluate a candidate, such as Step 1, clinical evaluations, and residency interviews. Using institutional prestige indirectly evaluates residency candidates using undergraduate grades, the MCAT, ECs, and med school interviews which are inferior methods to evaluate a residency candidate. At the end of the day if you have nothing else to go on, you might as well use prestige, but if there are other differences it seems more logical to use those.

 

[dantt]

The average GPA at the middle of the pack med schools the OP was describing is higher than a 3.3. The average for such schools is more like a 3.5-3.6, hence mostly A's. (he said "reasonable medium schools"). Not that I think you will be at the top of any school if you choose it because you hope it is "easier". It doesn't work that way.
Every med school is going to have some range, and the difference from one to another is not as drastic as you might think looking at the US News rank.
And I wouldn't underestimate the postbacs -- someone who overcame early bad grades and comes to med school with a long string of A's in a postbac is not always going to be the bottom of your med school class. People peak at different times, and folks who show up to med school on a streak of A's are as competitive as anyone.

(If you are trying to imply something about me based on my post count I'm afraid you aren't even in the ballpark. )

3.5-3.6 is B+/A-. It is much harder to improve your GPA the higher your GPA is . . . diminishing returns. A 3.85 (half A's, half A's) is MUCH harder than a 3.5. And a 3.9 is even harder than that.

 

[cwb]

Speaking from someone who got into "top" schools and decided not to go due to the VERY fragile health care system (can you say national health care system = $100,000 for physician salaries?) and just the fact that I would have to put up with most every anal pre-med posting on this thread who will probably see a vagina/penis for the first time in gross lab I don't regret it.

Going to a top school probably has its advantages... But the fact of the matter is I go to a state school and I am amazed how classmates of mine can read the book 1x before an insanely hard test and not miss any. I am working my ass off for honors and I would put my undergrad stats against any of the pre-med's future stats. The fact is you get to the real deal and none of this sh** matters - no one cares and no one has the time to care - do well on your steps, don't be an arrogant a-hole on the rounds (which judging by your behavior and defensiveness on an internet message board is going to be very hard to do), do some cool research and you will get into a top residency - It doesn’t matter what name is at the end of the diploma.

 

[Towelie]

This has degenerated into the dumbest argument ever. OF COURSE you can get top residencies from lower-tiered schools. And OF COURSE it gives you some advantage to go to a top school, otherwise nobody would attend these schools and everyone would just go to their state school. Everyone is getting a little too riled up about nothing.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

This has degenerated into the dumbest argument ever. OF COURSE you can get top residencies from lower-tiered schools. And OF COURSE it gives you some advantage to go to a top school, otherwise nobody would attend these schools and everyone would just go to their state school. Everyone is getting a little too riled up about nothing.

I look forward to the day when we enter medical school. Gone will be the days of "Will I ever get into medical school and become a physician", and all the stress of putting so much time and money into something where you have no guarantees about anything until that acceptance comes in.

Those of us stuck in the premed hell of "weed-out" undergraduate life I guess are a little on edge, so it translates to this type of discourse. Once medical school starts, we know we'll be a physician somewhere and can then focus better with less stress.