Are we in another housing bubble?

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UGAZ

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A couple of my coworkers (pharmacists) borrowed home equity line to use them as down payment for their 2nd, and 3rd houses....They all believe housing will be a lot more expensive in future. Everyone at work talks about housing all day long. Even my technician wanted to take equity loan out to buy some condo for renting.

Here in Orange County, housing prices have soared rapidly. Around my area, a house built in 1956 with 3 bed, 2 bath is now at 650K....I think we are at a bubble point here. Also, I notice we have so many new home building projects ongoing around.

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Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

I am hearing a lot of “this time it’s different” due to supposed shortages in housing. We have many signs that point to a bubble, such as record low interest rates and heavy speculation.
 
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You have to look at inventory and inventory is still very low. While I agree that prices are out of wracked vs. wages, it does not mean prices will go down any time soon.

You need to ask yourself....what's going to cause homeowners to sell especially at a loss? Unemployment rate is still very low. Even if they are spending 40% of their take home income on their house, they will keep on paying their mortgage just as long as they are still working.

Don't get me wrong...I am not too optimistic on housing in coastal cities. Changes in the tax law will probably have some affect but I don't see prices dropping like crazy unless mortgage interest rate goes thru the roof and we are hit with a recession. That might happen next year or the year after but who knows?

Debt will crush you and will separate winners from losers when bad time comes.
 
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Yes, but not as bad as 2008. What's driving the real estate market? Low interest rates, low unemployment, and little inventory. But wage growth isn't there to support escalating prices.

I sold my house, primary residency and made a hefty profit. Did not have to give in to buyer concessions or make pricey upgrades. Had 2 full price offers within days of listing and this is in a rural usually flat housing market.

Your friends might get in over their heads.
 
Yes, but not as bad as 2008. What's driving the real estate market? Low interest rates, low unemployment, and little inventory. But wage growth isn't there to support escalating prices.

I sold my house, primary residency and made a hefty profit. Did not have to give in to buyer concessions or make pricey upgrades. Had 2 full price offers within days of listing and this is in a rural usually flat housing market.

Your friends might get in over their heads.

That's what is wild about the DFW market. Buyers who ask for upgrades or changes usually get told to beat it.
 
That's what is wild about the DFW market. Buyers who ask for upgrades or changes usually get told to beat it.

My house had a 19 year old furnace, air conditioner, and water heater all original and working. Over time shims had come loose off the supports in the crawl space. The buyer asked for a structural engineer to look at the crawl. They got a $150 home warranty. The house was a good deal as priced.
 
A couple of my coworkers (pharmacists) borrowed home equity line to use them as down payment for their 2nd, and 3rd houses....They all believe housing will be a lot more expensive in future. Everyone at work talks about housing all day long. Even my technician wanted to take equity loan out to buy some condo for renting.

Here in Orange County, housing prices have soared rapidly. Around my area, a house built in 1956 with 3 bed, 2 bath is now at 650K....I think we are at a bubble point here. Also, I notice we have so many new home building projects ongoing around.
Hahahah, of course we are.
Look at how they've simply made all of the same mistakes.

Synthetic securitization is going to wreck the economy in another 10 years
 
I think we’re due for a correction but if you consider very long timelines, housing will “revert to the mean” of tracking long-term inflation.

So my advice still remains the same...buy a home when YOUR fundamentals make sense (i.e mortgage parity with rent prices, likelihood of staying at your job/region x 5 years, school district need, etc...)

House price loss is only realized upon selling, and you can always apply for a Prop 8 reassessment (CA).


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You have to look at inventory and inventory is still very low. While I agree that prices are out of wracked vs. wages, it does not mean prices will go down any time soon.

You need to ask yourself....what's going to cause homeowners to sell especially at a loss? Unemployment rate is still very low. Even if they are spending 40% of their take home income on their house, they will keep on paying their mortgage just as long as they are still working.

Debt will crush you and will separate winners from losers when bad time comes.

You answered your own question, it's debt in the form of leverage (and those people too stupid to refinance an ARM to a fixed given the Feds gift to them to refinance). I would say that you're right in the sense of those factors (prices will NOT go down anytime soon for producing regions). Here are the actual questions that the housing market is going to have to worry about:

1. How much of this debt is "bad" in the sense that the loan is uncollectable?
2. How much of the underlying asset is there really? Places with mostly settled stock (Portland) will retain value, but I'd argue strongly that house quality in Phoenix, Orange County, and Florida in particular is quite variable and that the useful economic life for some of the shoddier homes is at an end.
3. Gas prices in the longer term projection. When prices are cheaper, commuting is a decent option even for long commutes. When prices per gallon exceed 50% of the minimum wage, then we have a problem as it has quite the effect on labor.
4. Taxation obligations in a district. Not a big deal in the rural districts, but the urban ones and their inner ring suburbs pay increasing amounts due to government complexity and inefficiency.

Housing is like food. There's places that sell you actual food (farmers, cooperatives, grocery stores on the walls), ersatz food (convenience stores and grocery stores in the interior), and things marketed as food (Twinkies, Pizza Hut, and White Castle). Figuring out what's actual housing is a lesson lost on most people I know. It's pretty "sad" (hilarious) to see my co-workers buy in absolute crap districts where it's cool in your 20s (cheap with funky stores), annoying in your 30s (higher crime and regular stores and facilities not nearby), and unlivable in your 40s (no city services like schools worth a damn) where they have to compensate such as buying extensive security systems and sending their kids to Pope Alexander (the Borgia Pope) School for Scumbags.

So people like you living in places that you'd live in anyway taking on debt that you can actually afford (with your job as collateral essentially) are going to be fine if a bit annoyed as things get a little expensive if you want to move. But the speculator, unless they can meet their margins, I do expect them to wipeout. But the housing concerns that "we buy *($# houses", the model works on locations, but they are even having a tough time as question 2 really is a problem (some home builders, Shea and a couple of others, were really crap construction that building code should have never signed off on).

If you look at long stable markets like Germany, it really turns out to be a wash except for the utility of holding onto a particular location. But I would argue that your point that inventory is low should be qualified as *good* in the Georgism sense (location, quality, city services) is low and sales are very hard to come by period.

Since, I'm an owner (without a mortgage, we are paid off), I'm curious and concerned about property taxes and utility access as well as city services (my schools cannot be crap even without children as I don't want to live in a neighborhood without a demographic future). It's funny how those concerns shift over the years. But what I'm not worried about is the quality of safety and policing (we don't have scumbags living in this city, and yes, that unfortunately has class and racial implications as well), my neighbors going "The Purge" on my household, or that the city is unresponsive to complaints. That's worth paying for by me, I hate the drama of living in a city where I have to spend effort fighting for basic service delivery (DC (East side), Chicago, and Portland definitely come to mind).

Georgism sense - Georgism - Wikipedia
 
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Housing prices are very localized, go on FRED sometime and look at housing values for various metro areas over the past 20 years. The coasts may be peaking but I think there is still room to run in secondary cities.
 
A couple of my coworkers (pharmacists) borrowed home equity line to use them as down payment for their 2nd, and 3rd houses....They all believe housing will be a lot more expensive in future. Everyone at work talks about housing all day long. Even my technician wanted to take equity loan out to buy some condo for renting.

Here in Orange County, housing prices have soared rapidly. Around my area, a house built in 1956 with 3 bed, 2 bath is now at 650K....I think we are at a bubble point here. Also, I notice we have so many new home building projects ongoing around.
it's clearly a housing bubble. Boomers have invested tons of money into their houses but there is going to be no one there to buy all these over-inflated properties when boomers start to croak en mass. Millennial and gen X with their massive student loans and meager wages are not going to be able to buy the houses at over inflated prices. In fact there would have already been a massive correction if the US fed had not PRINTED trillions of dollars OUT OF THIN AIR to buy bad mortgages and over inflated houses back in 2008-2009 (quantitative easing)

TL:DR
boomers all croak in 2030 tons of mcmansions in the cookiecutter suburbs flood the market from their children trying to get rid of the depreciating property tax liability. Houses lose 70% of their value in 6 months. It's simple supply demand.
 
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Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

I am hearing a lot of “this time it’s different” due to supposed shortages in housing. We have many signs that point to a bubble, such as record low interest rates and heavy speculation.
preach. Stay woke brother. I see you doing God's work on the /r/pharmacy subreddit. Help educated the young feeble unwashed minds.
 
Maybe. But housing in the two main metros of CA might actually be worth that much as demand for a place to live in such cramped areas continues to rise. I don't understand why more tech startups don't just move to Detroit or something...

But, anyway, back in the rest of the US, nobody is talking about housing. A house pretty much the exact same as mine only sold for about 20% more than I bought it in 2012 at the very bottom of the market. Which seems reasonable given the economy booming. When people making $40,000 a year start buying $300,000 houses...then you can get worried.
 
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The bubble is definitely going to burst within the next 3 years. Increased interest rates, spikes in foreclosures, increased home prices, low inventory, and a low income to debt ratio are all contributors. These speculations were seen in '06 as well, just before the '08 crash, though the current situation might not get that bad because we have better credit standards now. Either way, sell now or sell in 5-10 years. I wouldn't recommend buying at all right now.
 
Maybe. But housing in the two main metros of CA might actually be worth that much as demand for a place to live in such cramped areas continues to rise. I don't understand why more tech startups don't just move to Detroit or something...

But, anyway, back in the rest of the US, nobody is talking about housing. A house pretty much the exact same as mine only sold for about 20% more than I bought it in 2012 at the very bottom of the market. Which seems reasonable given the economy booming. When people making $40,000 a year start buying $300,000 houses...then you can get worried.

Atlanta is very hot right now. Know someone personally whose house has almost doubled (260ish to 450ish) in 5 years. This is in a suburb about 45 minutes outside Atlanta and OTP. Dozens of offers in any good area within days. People are still actively flipping (which blows my mind, I guess people are still willing to sell for a deal).
 
If you look at the current outstanding mortgage debt, it has remained flatlined since 2008. This means that the people that are buying....have tons of cash (foreigners) and are very qualified financially. Yes, there is an uptick in people over leveraging but we're not at 2008 levels.

U.S. mortgage debt outstanding 2017 | Statistic

The Fed - Mortgage Debt Outstanding, March 2018

So how can Americans be buying up houses with prices soaring since 2008, yet they do not have to borrow more? Simple...they're putting down more cash. You can also see the dramatic rise in US mortgage debt from 2000 to 2008 (doubling in 8 years). We're nowhere near that rate.
 
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A couple of my coworkers (pharmacists) borrowed home equity line to use them as down payment for their 2nd, and 3rd houses....They all believe housing will be a lot more expensive in future. Everyone at work talks about housing all day long. Even my technician wanted to take equity loan out to buy some condo for renting.

Here in Orange County, housing prices have soared rapidly. Around my area, a house built in 1956 with 3 bed, 2 bath is now at 650K....I think we are at a bubble point here. Also, I notice we have so many new home building projects ongoing around.
This whole country is in one big bubble. The healthcare bubble, student loan bubble, Car bubble, Medicaid bubble, medicare bubble, social security is a pyramid scheme, someday life will come to collect its due.
 
The stock market needs to crash and the economy goes into a recession for housing prices to go down.

Will you have a job then to benefit from a stock market crash? Do you have enough capital on hand to withstand a recession?


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The stock market needs to crash and the economy goes into a recession for housing prices to go down.

Will you have a job then to benefit from a stock market crash? Do you have enough capital on hand to withstand a recession?


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Like many people of my generation, I waited out the worst of the last recession in college. The company I worked for during undergrad went through several phases of restructuring (which is how a guy hired for data-entry found himself working shifts in the factory), layoffs, and eventually shut their doors. I graduated when the economy was starting to recover and my employer was in a growth phase. It'll be interesting and/or horrifying to see what happens. I would love to purchase a nice home at a bargain price, but I definitely don't have enough capital to weather a long period of unemployment.

In a field that is already feeling the pain of oversupply and cost-containment, what will happen if we see another 2008? We should all do our best to prepare for the worst case scenario.

edit: or YOLO on crypto, none of this even matters
 
I might just retire after the next recession IF I play my cards right.


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Many of the houses on the west coast are bought by rich international businessmen who don't even live in them. Did this happen in 2008?
 
They need to trap those millennials somehow, but on a serious note, this is absolutely ridiculous. Why haven't they learned from their mistakes?

Because there is a disconnect from the people "making" the mistakes and the people paying for them?
 
If I ever see the same moral hazard largesse from 2004-2007 manifest itself again, I’d 100% finance the heck out of a house, cash out all the speculative equity, and walk away* (after living rent-free for a year & collecting cash for keys) in a heartbeat.

In. A. Heartbeat.


*in a non-judicial one-action state, of course


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If I ever see the same moral hazard largesse from 2004-2007 manifest itself again, I’d 100% finance the heck out of a house, cash out all the speculative equity, and walk away* (after living rent-free for a year & collecting cash for keys) in a heartbeat.

In. A. Heartbeat.


*in a non-judicial one-action state, of course


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Even if not (you're licensed in California), you have something in your 401k, right? Good luck getting out of wage garnishment or 401k raiding if that's the case.
 
A couple of my coworkers (pharmacists) borrowed home equity line to use them as down payment for their 2nd, and 3rd houses....They all believe housing will be a lot more expensive in future. Everyone at work talks about housing all day long. Even my technician wanted to take equity loan out to buy some condo for renting.

Here in Orange County, housing prices have soared rapidly. Around my area, a house built in 1956 with 3 bed, 2 bath is now at 650K....I think we are at a bubble point here. Also, I notice we have so many new home building projects ongoing around.

The answer to your question is NO, we are not in a bubble. Could we be heading there, maybe. But not in a bubble. Don't know how the cap on SALT and limits on Mortgage Interest will effect housing prices... To early to tell. Housing just got more expensive, that tends to depress prices. The reason prices are rising for the most part is lack of supply. Home building is nothing like 2007-2008. So you have many buyers fighting over less supply and that's pushing up prices.......
 
Like others have said, the increase in housing prices is mostly from a lack of inventory as we're not seeing a lot of debt right now. People are buying houses with cash (the richest individuals in the country who continue to get richer). I'd say we are about halfway through a market cycle. Demand will eventually be met and exceeded as companies jump in right now to meet that demand. Houses take a long time to be built and so housing construction will continue to grow above what is demanded as the houses that are being built wont hit the market and decrease prices for several years. Once the inventory starts to hit the market there will be more inventory than needed and the bubble will pop.

Housing prices are starting to plateau meaning we'll probably more or less flatline for awhile until the inventory comes in. This is assuming it is still financially feasible to build more housing in certain metropolitan areas given what space is left (you can always build more condos).

I'm personally going to rent for the foreseeable future as I am graduating and will be moving around. Contrary to popular belief, renting can be a better financial decision for a lot of people. You have to figure out what is best for you given your individual circumstances.

Detailed explanation of the increase in housing permits:
New Residential Building Permits: 1.35M in March - dshort - Advisor Perspectives

Buying vs renting (Khan Academy has lots of awesome financial literacy videos):
Housing | Finance and capital markets | Khan Academy

Generally cheaper to buy. Not if you are going to move around. My kids were paying $1800.00/month plus utilites to rent a 1 BR townhouse. Bought a small starter house and they are paying around $1100.00 with taxes included for a house......
 
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Even if not (you're licensed in California), you have something in your 401k, right? Good luck getting out of wage garnishment or 401k raiding if that's the case.

That’s why I said non-judicial, one-action state

Which I think is California only, but I’m not knowledgeable with how the other 49 states operate foreclosures.

(Of note, a lender may still pursue a judicial foreclosure, but given the time/costs and the dreaded one-year right of redemption...it pretty much never happens).


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Even if not (you're licensed in California), you have something in your 401k, right? Good luck getting out of wage garnishment or 401k raiding if that's the case.
if you are in a non-judicial state it doesn't matter (Cali and Arizona to name a few) - my state - not so much - I considered it when I was up-side-down in my old home, instead I bit the bullet and paid 25k to sell it.
 
if you are in a non-judicial state it doesn't matter (Cali and Arizona to name a few) - my state - not so much - I considered it when I was up-side-down in my old home, instead I bit the bullet and paid 25k to sell it.

$25k wouldn’t be worth it, I would have done the same. Strategic walk away only makes sense if the deficiency is non-recourse and/or in a non-judicial state >$100k, IMO.


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Anyone else buying rental properties? Just curious what other people look for in a rental?


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I would suggest to you to know your market well and work the financials out in detail. I live in a condo complex where 17 of the 20 units are rentals with a 50/50 mix of long vs short term (air bnb etc). The short term renters only are occupied at the peak times and the rates are low. So, if you are counting on rent to cover the note, hoa etc that would not happen with a short term rental.
 
Anyone else buying rental properties? Just curious what other people look for in a rental?


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Consistent recession-resistant demand — universities, desirable coastal or mountain vacation areas, etc... and areas with naturally limited supply (meaning a developer can’t drop 500 housing units in the area at the tail end of a boom cycle).

Also rule of thumb is ratio house price / rent cost < 160

As tax law percolates, great opportunities to buy as people unload their second/third homes - make sure you incorporate to take advantage of tax benefits not available to normal people now.


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Anyone else buying rental properties? Just curious what other people look for in a rental?


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I have one I’m actually selling and under contract to clear just at 10% or purchase price in profit. Did the live in it 2 of last 5 years bit. Made about 1% of rent monthly based on original purchase price (which is typically what you want minimum for good rental). I no longer lived in the town and holding it long term wasn’t worth the amount of money I was making. If we have another housing crash I might buy a few.
 
Housing market is a lot different than 2008 for several reasons.
1. International buyers have been aggressively buying properties overseas.
2. Hedge funds bought many foreclosure properties and turned them into rentals. This income has been good and they have not put the houses back on the market. Many capital groups continue to pool capital and increase their rental portfolios.
3. Airbnb buyers continue to invest around the country in strategic areas.
4. Home builders have been under-developing less profitable economy houses.
5. Low interest rates and an almost 10-year bull market have created a ton of free capital. Much of this capital has been used in the stock market, the venture capital startup business, and in the real estate market. Treasury rates are finally creeping up, but there is still a huge amount of excess money out there. All of this money is in the hands of wealthy people and baby boomers.
6. The cost to build has also steadily increased in many areas. If anyone has looked at building a new house or building the costs to build are crazy. Plus the competition for builders has driven the labor costs way up.

Things aren't the best for homebuyers, but unless there is a big market meltdown I don't know if things are going to change much anytime soon.
 
If anyone wants to invest in a house hoping that prices will increase, I've got one for sale. More than a year on the market and it's a nice, reasonably priced 5 bedroom house. Don't tell me it's a sellers market all over the country because with 100 houses for sale in a small county where I used to live, NOTHING is selling.

Owning 2 houses sucks and I have no idea why people would go into more debt for it.
 
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