Are We Surrounded by Idiots?

[AustinFinklea]

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So, this last week, I was walking down the hall with a guy who is in one of my classes. He is applying aswell, MD only. He is the Pre Med Pres, the Pres of the AED chapter at my Univ. and so forth. We were talking about how he applied the 1st of July and hasnt heard anything regarding acceptances from any of the schools he applied to. He was frustrated. He asked me if I had, and I said, "sure, I have interviewed at a couple of places and have had a couple of acceptances". He told me, "I wish that MEDICAL SCHOOLS got back to students that fast". WTF!!!! I was so freakin pissed. Are we really surrounded by such freakin ******s that dont think Osteopathic med students are medical students. His attitude was as if I was a chiropractic student or something. I imagined diving off the corner ropes and body smashing this dude like Super Fly Jimmy Snuka, then breaking a wooden chair over his back!!!!!! 😡 😡 Am I over-reacting? 😱 Please, comments and biased opinions welcome.....

 

[koennen]

You mean osteopathic schools ARE medical schools??? Damn ....

 

[bkpa2med]

Unfortunately we are surrounded by those idiots. Wait till your colleagues, maybe he'll wake up then.

 

[Taus]

listen....until you're a practicing physician (ie when no one cares what degree you have, where you trained, what asses you've kissed, etc)....people will ask you what Osteopathic and DO is all about.....while some people are just a combination of ignorant/arrogant/a$$holes ....most people really don't know and will just as clueless if you don't take 2 minutes to calmly and professionally explain it to them.

I know thats probably not the response you wanted....but if the above is too difficult for you then you are in for many frustrating conversations in the next few years

 

[AustinFinklea]

You mean osteopathic schools ARE medical schools??? Damn ....

Sorry to say it Bro, yep, you are going to be a doctor. Sorry to break it to ya....

 

[koennen]

Exactly. Forget about the "next few years," I would venture to say you will have to explain to people what a DO is for the rest of your career. Especially if you practice in an area where there aren't many DOs.

 

[AustinFinklea]

listen....until you're a practicing physician (ie when no one cares what degree you have, where you trained, what asses you've kissed, etc)....people will ask you what Osteopathic and DO is all about.....while some people are just a combination of ignorant/arrogant/a$$holes ....most people really don't know and will just as clueless if you don't take 2 minutes to calmly and professionally explain it to them.

I know thats probably not the response you wanted....but if the above is too difficult for you then you are in for many frustrating conversations in the next few years

Dude, easy does it. This isnt hard for me at all to expain to others that just dont know what a DO is. I was totally wierded out that students that have been applying to med schools and have been involved in many aspects of medicine while pursuing a career in it, dont know what a DO is. OBVIOUSLY, I wouldnt be pursuing osteopathy if I wasnt prepared to explain to many people for many years what it is. I do agree with your post, however. Thanks dude.👍

 

[Nasrudin]

While I agree that the dude is obviously ignorant. You should be calmed by the reminder that you are going on to med school to pursuit your dreams while this fellow is still pandering for interviews. Ignorance and arrogance can be hard to distinguish in some cases, but this guy is clearly ignorant and should be given the benefit of the doubt in the case of his arrogance.

I agree with the above poster. Retain you piece of mind. Your on your way to being a doctor--you'll have tremendous responsibilities. Anyone who shares in these responsibilities with you will only be concerned with your degree of professionalism. Anyone who maintains the luxury of ignorance and ridiculous opinions likely will not have to bear the burdens of your responsibilities. They will pop up from time to time for the rest of your professional career. It seems like a good idea to come up with a solid mental stategy now for dealing with them with agility and little wasted energy. Congrats and good luck.

 

[Yes_I_DO]

Dude, easy does it. This isnt hard for me at all to expain to others that just dont know what a DO is. I was totally wierded out that students that have been applying to med schools and have been involved in many aspects of medicine while pursuing a career in it, dont know what a DO is. OBVIOUSLY, I wouldnt be pursuing osteopathy if I wasnt prepared to explain to many people for many years what it is. I do agree with your post, however. Thanks dude.👍

I know what you mean. I can *somewhat* (with very much patience) tolerate the general public not knowing. But come on! Med school ppl?!? I actually had the same experience. I was shadowing a DO actually (and had been for months) and this other pre-med comes to shadow who only barely knew about DO. She just wanted to shadow a rural FP. So one of the patients says "so you are two going to med school?" And she goes "Well, I am. But she's..." And then she trailed off and giggled. Im not kidding. 😡 Wow. Just wow. I said "it's still MED SCHOOL!" And she goes, "well..." My only hope is that she doesnt get accepted anywhere this year. Maybe she needs some more time to mature into an intelligent human being.

 

[AustinFinklea]

While I agree that the dude is obviously ignorant. You should be calmed by the reminder that you are going on to med school to pursuit your dreams while this fellow is still pandering for interviews. Ignorance and arrogance can be hard to distinguish in some cases, but this guy is clearly ignorant and should be given the benefit of the doubt in the case of his arrogance.

I agree with the above poster. Retain you piece of mind. Your on your way to being a doctor--you'll have tremendous responsibilities. Anyone who shares in these responsibilities with you will only be concerned with your degree of professionalism. Anyone who maintains the luxury of ignorance and ridiculous opinions likely will not have to bear the burdens of your responsibilities. They will pop up from time to time for the rest of your professional career. It seems like a good idea to come up with a solid mental stategy now for dealing with them with agility and little wasted energy. Congrats and good luck.

I guess breaking chairs over patients backs simply because they arent aware of what a DO exactly is, is a tad much huh?

 

[AustinFinklea]

I know what you mean. I can *somewhat* (with very much patience) tolerate the general public not knowing. But come on! Med school ppl?!? I actually had the same experience. I was shadowing a DO actually (and had been for months) and this other pre-med comes to shadow who only barely knew about DO. She just wanted to shadow a rural FP. So one of the patients says "so you are two going to med school?" And she goes "Well, I am. But she's..." And then she trailed off and giggled. Im not kidding. 😡 Wow. Just wow. I said "it's still MED SCHOOL!" And she goes, "well..." My only hope is that she doesnt get accepted anywhere this year. Maybe she needs some more time to mature into an intelligent human being.

Yo, that is what I am talking about. My brother is a 2nd year resident in OH, and he feels the same way. He doesnt really have to worry much about it over there (tons of DO's in OH). Anyhoo, I knew long ago that I was going to have to explain to others what a DO is, yadadadada...... It bugs me that other potential medical students dont though.

 

[dr.z]

Unfortunately we are surrounded by those idiots. Wait till your colleagues, maybe he'll wake up then.

👍

 

[dr.kicia]

Exactly. Forget about the "next few years," I would venture to say you will have to explain to people what a DO is for the rest of your career. Especially if you practice in an area where there aren't many DOs.

this problem only exists in heads of pre-med students.
I am arround DO's all day long while volunteering in the ER and shadowing. I have never heard any patient ask about DO after the docs name.
All they know that the person is a doctor...and of story.
It's as if a dentis should explain why he has a DMD and not DDS after his name...who cares? He is a dentist.
Besides many docs have a lot of letters after their names and no one asks (for instance) what the heack FACP means.

I know ppl who would rather go to third world country to get MD after their name and go through hurdle of FMG rather then have DO after their name...because their affraid of stigma....and that stigma doesn't exist.

Well better for us....

thanks to those ignorants there is more spots at DO schools for ppl who are applying DO because they are passionate about being a DOCTOR...and are not rejects from "normal med schools"

 

[PhantomfanMD]

"I wish that MEDICAL SCHOOLS got back to students that fast".

I know what you mean...I am one of those MD only people too but that's just a preference with philosophy I have. Anyway, people who think that DO's aren't docs are ruckin' fetarded! The only different thing is the philosophy and the initials. Residency opportunities are the same and I would imagine the pay is as well. Don't pay attention to idiots like that! He probably hadn't heard anything back from his med schools because he didn't submit secondaries since he probably thought the primary application through AMCAS was all he needed. I know lots of premeds at my school who are dumb like that...only some of these people think that by taking a CC course, they can just get by on a C and it will only transfer as credit to the university. HELLO??? YOU SEND IN YOUR TRANSCRIPTS!! LOL! Anyway, people like your friend suck and are too immature to be doctors if they think like that!

 

[AustinFinklea]

this problem only exists in heads of pre-med students.
I am arround DO's all day long while volunteering in the ER and shadowing. I have never heard any patient ask about DO after the docs name.
All they know that the person is a doctor...and of story.
It's as if a dentis should explain why he has a DMD and not DDS after his name...who cares? He is a dentist.
Besides many docs have a lot of letters after their names and no one asks (for instance) what the heack FACP means.

I know ppl who would rather go to third world country to get MD after their name and go through hurdle of FMG rather then have DO after their name...because their affraid of stigma....and that stigma doesn't exist.

Well better for us....

thanks to those ignorants there is more spots at DO schools for ppl who are applying DO because they are passionate about being a DOCTOR...and are not rejects from "normal med schools"

AMEN Brother........👍

 

[dr.kicia]

AMEN Brother........👍

u mean sister😉 😛

 

[HunterGatherer]

I only heard about DOs when looking up application info on the internet and came accross SDN. I'm not certain I would find out about DOs otherwise. Although the info is out there not all people see it and/or believe it.

I can't call them idiots either.

 

[AustinFinklea]

I only heard about DOs when looking up application info on the internet and came accross SDN. I'm not certain I would find out about DOs otherwise. Although the info is out there not all people see it and/or believe it.

I can't call them idiots either.

What do you mean believe it?

 

[AustinFinklea]

u mean sister😉 😛

Sorry Sister........

 

[VALSALVA]

So, this last week, I was walking down the hall with a guy who is in one of my classes. He is applying aswell, MD only. He is the Pre Med Pres, the Pres of the AED chapter at my Univ. and so forth. We were talking about how he applied the 1st of July and hasnt heard anything regarding acceptances from any of the schools he applied to. He was frustrated. He asked me if I had, and I said, "sure, I have interviewed at a couple of places and have had a couple of acceptances". He told me, "I wish that MEDICAL SCHOOLS got back to students that fast". WTF!!!! I was so freakin pissed. Are we really surrounded by such freakin ******s that dont think Osteopathic med students are medical students. His attitude was as if I was a chiropractic student or something. I imagined diving off the corner ropes and body smashing this dude like Super Fly Jimmy Snuka, then breaking a wooden chair over his back!!!!!! 😡 😡 Am I over-reacting? 😱 Please, comments and biased opinions welcome.....

Yeah...I think you're over-reacting. Next time, just let that stuff go in one ear and out the other. Whether you intend it or not, you attitude reflects that you feel like you have something to prove. This is the same attitude that makes the AOA so damn ineffective.

 

[jason3278]

I think that if someone makes an ignorant comment, you should confront them (nicely) on it. It may work, it may not, but silence doesn't get you (or them) anywhere.

 

[NonTradMed]

He probably hadn't heard anything back from his med schools because he didn't submit secondaries since he probably thought the primary application through AMCAS was all he needed. I know lots of premeds at my school who are dumb like that...only some of these people think that by taking a CC course, they can just get by on a C and it will only transfer as credit to the university. HELLO??? YOU SEND IN YOUR TRANSCRIPTS!! LOL! Anyway, people like your friend suck and are too immature to be doctors if they think like that!

Wow, are there people that dumb? Dont' send in secondaries and think they can avoid sending in CC transcripts? Sheesh, I guess it's a good thing med schools have standards then. 😀

To the OP, I go to an allo school and I still hear some ignorant stuff said about DOs (not derogatory, but old stereotypes of DOs are heard repeated). The funny thing is....our school's hospital gets quite a few DOs rotating through it. We regularly receive email from rotating med students who ask for someone to give them a place to stay for their rotations. And then I hear MS1 students saying that DOs can't specialize or 'don't do real medicine'----well, I think some people will be in for a surprise come third year when they're rotating and doing the exact same thing as the DO students. 😉

Don't worry about the guy. Once you're a doctor at your 20th college reunion, I think it's safe to say that you'll be getting the last laugh.

He will either have:
1. Gotten into med school and find out he has to work with DOs (as some of my classmates will).
2. Never get into med school and find himself working in some cubicle while you'll living his dream and practicing medicine.

It's a win-win. 😀

 

[RollWave11]

Yo, that is what I am talking about. My brother is a 2nd year resident in OH, and he feels the same way. He doesnt really have to worry much about it over there (tons of DO's in OH). Anyhoo, I knew long ago that I was going to have to explain to others what a DO is, yadadadada...... It bugs me that other potential medical students dont though.

I think the only way any of us can prove them wrong is to be the absolutely best docs we can be. If we master our craft then the tables will turn in the "who is a real doctor" argument.

 

[AustinFinklea]

I think the only way any of us can prove them wrong is to be the absolutely best docs we can be. If we master our craft then the tables will turn in the "who is a real doctor" argument.

You are RIGHT!!!!!👍 👍

 

[Jamers]

So, this last week, I was walking down the hall with a guy who is in one of my classes. He is applying aswell, MD only. He is the Pre Med Pres, the Pres of the AED chapter at my Univ. and so forth. We were talking about how he applied the 1st of July and hasnt heard anything regarding acceptances from any of the schools he applied to. He was frustrated. He asked me if I had, and I said, "sure, I have interviewed at a couple of places and have had a couple of acceptances". He told me, "I wish that MEDICAL SCHOOLS got back to students that fast". WTF!!!! I was so freakin pissed. Are we really surrounded by such freakin ******s that dont think Osteopathic med students are medical students. His attitude was as if I was a chiropractic student or something. I imagined diving off the corner ropes and body smashing this dude like Super Fly Jimmy Snuka, then breaking a wooden chair over his back!!!!!! 😡 😡 Am I over-reacting? 😱 Please, comments and biased opinions welcome.....

We can always look to the great Spaceballs for the answer to this question...



Dark Helmet: Careful you idiot! I said across her nose, not up it!
Laser Gunner: Sorry sir! I'm doing my best!
Dark Helmet: Who made that man a gunner?
Major dingus: I did sir. He's my cousin.
Dark Helmet: Who is he?
Colonel Sandurz: He's an dingus sir.
Dark Helmet: I know that! What's his name?
Colonel Sandurz: That is his name sir. dingus, Major dingus!
Dark Helmet: And his cousin?
Colonel Sandurz: He's an dingus too sir. Gunner's mate First Class Philip dingus!
Dark Helmet: How many asholes do we have on this ship, anyway?
[Entire bridge crew stands up and raises a hand]
Entire Bridge Crew: Yo!
Dark Helmet: I knew it. I'm surrounded by dinguses!
[Dark Helmet pulls his face shield down]
Dark Helmet: Keep firing, dinguses!

 

[HunterGatherer]

What do you mean believe it?

as in you never heard about a DO before and then after some research, come to the conclusion that after graduating, getting a DO degree will lead you to the same choices as an MD degree. Some people look into a DO degree and either don't buy it, didn't research it enough, or some combo.

 

[dr.kicia]

I think the only way any of us can prove them wrong is to be the absolutely best docs we can be. If we master our craft then the tables will turn in the "who is a real doctor" argument.

yeah that whole debate about stigma just shows how few ppl go into medicine for the sake of helping others and striving to be the best in it.

If you really want to be a doctor....in the full definition of that word...what letters will be written after your name should be no concern to you.
A Doctor is a doctor...in fact having the same training as MD plus some "extra stuff" that could be useful for your patiens should make you want to be a DO.

Thats how i feel...and though i came from a country where no one heard of DO, i totally fell in love with the osteopathic philosophy after i learned more about it...
I also could have been in the MD program as of now (in Poland...and man i would save like 200K) but i chose not to.

What is upsetting the most is that there are some ppl, asking questions like MD vs. DO and is it possible for a DO to become an MD or to transfer from DO school to MD...this is kinda sad and only shows that DO schools could do better in admissions process...letting in the applicants who really want it and who will be DOCTORS not prestige of the two letters after their name.

 

[baylormed]

Wow, are there people that dumb? Dont' send in secondaries and think they can avoid sending in CC transcripts? Sheesh, I guess it's a good thing med schools have standards then. 😀

Yes, there are people that dumb.

I had somebody tell me "I didn't know we had to write an essay!!". This person as a junior pre-med, who'd always been pre-med and told everyone so. Some people don't even know what secondaries are, or how you are supposed to turn in your application, or letters of recommendation. I wish I could say they just haven't been well informed...but when one is interested in something one LOOKS for the information, you don't wait until somebody else tells you the summer of your junior year. And yeah, neither of these people went through the application this year, I guess they got scared when they realized it was so much work.

 

[noshie]

One of my first posts was just like this. It was about how some of the premeds at my school dont know what the heck they are doing, and they dont even investigate how to apply or have any medical experiences. This is so irritating to me because they all have great grades but I feel that this alone should not grant you admission to med school. How can you dedicate your life to something when you have no idea what you are getting yourself into? Anyways, I got crap for that post just like you are getting for this one. So I just want to be the one to tell you I know exactly how you feel and I agree 100%. Ignorant people should not be allowed to hold others lives in their hands. They just shouldn't.

 

[sunmoon6689]

People really are that dumb! I met someone once who said that he wanted to become a surgeon, but not a doctor. He was completely serious. He went so far as to say that he was glad he did not have to attend medical school! In all honesty, I had no idea how to reply. I just stood there in shock until my friend interrupted.

 

[RollWave11]

What is upsetting the most is that there are some ppl, asking questions like MD vs. DO and is it possible for a DO to become an MD or to transfer from DO school to MD...this is kinda sad and only shows that DO schools could do better in admissions process...letting in the applicants who really want it and who will be DOCTORS not prestige of the two letters after their name.

This is definitely true. DO schools need to change their admissions methodology to get the students who realy want it.

 

[Nate]

I am just impressed by the superfly snuka reference

 

[Doc2007]

The problem is premedical committee is not well informed about Osteopathic medicine and they hold stereotypical veiw of it. Same view is passed along to the students. One of the first thing AOA needs to do is to pass information to the premedical committee and hold presentation at every school about two different types of medicine. Show them that as a DO, you can enter in most of the field if not all.

 

[VALSALVA]

I think that if someone makes an ignorant comment, you should confront them (nicely) on it. It may work, it may not, but silence doesn't get you (or them) anywhere.

Do you actually confront someone everytime he/she makes in ignorant comment? Truly, that's amazing. You can't think of anytime when silence is appropriate? Geez...whatever happened to "actions speak louder than words?" Sometimes it's just not worth the effort and, often times, keeping ones mouth shut is more an act of maturity than anything else. Naturally, these are only my opinions. I couldn't care less about what people think of the DO behind my name. I found that one's individual performance (not words or sound bites), more than anything, earns respect.

 

[VALSALVA]

Let me also say that although we each earn our own reputations...collectively, D.O.'s have much to be proud of.

 

[dr.kicia]

The problem is premedical committee is not well informed about Osteopathic medicine and they hold stereotypical veiw of it. Same view is passed along to the students. One of the first thing AOA needs to do is to pass information to the premedical committee and hold presentation at every school about two different types of medicine. Show them that as a DO, you can enter in most of the field if not all.

well that is true...but some ppl, me included, never even stood close to a pre-med committee and still were able to find out, ask questions, and figure out what to do on their own...
Anyone can be a great doctor...you just have to really want it...and that includes finding out what you need to do.
In med school and later in your career no one will be spoon feeding you information...it's a matter of maturity and what you really want and how bad you want it...and i guess that all these ingnorant pre-meds out there just didn't really want it and are not even material for a doctor to begin with.

 

[FutureDoc2011]

"sure, I have interviewed at a couple of places and have had a couple of acceptances".

You're going to be a doc, he's still not sure...how about them apples!

 

[Dr JPH]

this problem only exists in heads of pre-med students.

Dont know about only, but 99% of it is a premed stigma.

I have rotated with medical students from 4 MD schools located here in Philadelphia and none of them has ever treated me any differently. In fact, I have gotten just the opposite reaction...I get more of a curiosity surrounding why I chose DO, whats different, etc.

On Tuesday I was at one of those MD schools helping teach a manual medicine lecture to a group of MD residents and MD students.

MDs can be pretty good palpators when you take the time to teach them. 😉

 

[dr.kicia]

Dont know about only, but 99% of it is a premed stigma.

I have rotated with medical students from 4 MD schools located here in Philadelphia and none of them has ever treated me any differently. In fact, I have gotten just the opposite reaction...I get more of a curiosity surrounding why I chose DO, whats different, etc.

On Tuesday I was at one of those MD schools helping teach a manual medicine lecture to a group of MD residents and MD students.

MDs can be pretty good palpators when you take the time to teach them. 😉

 

[Nasrudin]

I think the only way any of us can prove them wrong is to be the absolutely best docs we can be. If we master our craft then the tables will turn in the "who is a real doctor" argument.

This is my sentiment exactly, whether I go md or do, i will seek to maintain this principle. A good doctor is a good doctor period. Nobody can take that away from you if you know in your heart your there striving for the best care you can give to your patients and coworkers.

I am however, put off by the reactionary, self-pride of some on the DO path, that actually see themselves as a "different" kind of doctor due to the more patient centered philosophies and methodologies when clearly the economics of expanding, extremely expensive, DO schools and a lack of increasing numbers and quality of residencies does not edify a more holistic and patient centered philosophy but rather sound fundamental venture capitalist goals with the idea of giving the consumer an oppurtunity to practice medicine, period.

I'm OK with seeing things as they are. I'm not OK with seeing with one's imagination and sense of self justification.

I want to be a good doctor period. I want a chance to do that in the USofA. Whoever gives me the shot is gonna get a kid driven to do well on USMLE step one and to get a quality residency in a city my wife can thrive in with her work. I think the majority of DO applicants share my sentiments and are accepting of OMM as just acquiring another skill that could benefit our patients.

I don't see any evidence for the grandiose separate vision of the osteopathic eduation. I see it as simply a medical education. Furthermore, if the goal is to integrate effectively with other professionals on our merits, I think a philosophy based in reality serves everyone better. Osteopaths are physicians. Your phiosophies are your philosophies. An MD or a DO can be interested in alternative medical models and approaches.

Any thoughts about the way I see things, because I'm curious about how my perspective will be recieved from osteopathic interviewers and adcoms?

 

[dr.kicia]

This is my sentiment exactly, whether I go md or do, i will seek to maintain this principle. A good doctor is a good doctor period. Nobody can take that away from you if you know in your heart your there striving for the best care you can give to your patients and coworkers.

I am however, put off by the reactionary, self-pride of some on the DO path, that actually see themselves as a "different" kind of doctor due to the more patient centered philosophies and methodologies when clearly the economics of expanding, extremely expensive, DO schools and a lack of increasing numbers and quality of residencies does not edify a more holistic and patient centered philosophy but rather sound fundamental venture capitalist goals with the idea of giving the consumer an oppurtunity to practice medicine, period.

I'm OK with seeing things as they are. I'm not OK with seeing with one's imagination and sense of self justification.

I want to be a good doctor period. I want a chance to do that in the USofA. Whoever gives me the shot is gonna get a kid driven to do well on USMLE step one and to get a quality residency in a city my wife can thrive in with her work. I think the majority of DO applicants share my sentiments and are accepting of OMM as just acquiring another skill that could benefit our patients.

I don't see any evidence for the grandiose separate vision of the osteopathic eduation. I see it as simply a medical education. Furthermore, if the goal is to integrate effectively with other professionals on our merits, I think a philosophy based in reality serves everyone better. Osteopaths are physicians. Your phiosophies are your philosophies. An MD or a DO can be interested in alternative medical models and approaches.

Any thoughts about the way I see things, because I'm curious about how my perspective will be recieved from osteopathic interviewers and adcoms?

i think this is a great perspective. I especially do agree with the statement that some ppl choose a DO path for the fact of "some extra skills" that you learn and that may be beneficial( which i have seen with my own, bare eyes while shadowing my DO) for the patients. The bottom line is that if you want to be a DOCTOR, for the sake of the whole idea about medicine, then the degree or letters after your name shouldn't matter to you.

But from my own observation, shadowing a DO, talkig to some DO schools and even a simple interview feedback on this page, i will feel more like home at the DO school...and like i said i could have done MD ( i would be doing my first year right now, paying a rediculously small 8k per year) but i resigned and i chose DO because i want to know everything possible that can to help my patient.
OMM is amazing...even Harvard teaches it now and as a DO i will not have to take extra courses to know how to do it.

Saves money too😀

 

[AustinFinklea]

This is my sentiment exactly, whether I go md or do, i will seek to maintain this principle. A good doctor is a good doctor period. Nobody can take that away from you if you know in your heart your there striving for the best care you can give to your patients and coworkers.

I am however, put off by the reactionary, self-pride of some on the DO path, that actually see themselves as a "different" kind of doctor due to the more patient centered philosophies and methodologies when clearly the economics of expanding, extremely expensive, DO schools and a lack of increasing numbers and quality of residencies does not edify a more holistic and patient centered philosophy but rather sound fundamental venture capitalist goals with the idea of giving the consumer an oppurtunity to practice medicine, period.

I'm OK with seeing things as they are. I'm not OK with seeing with one's imagination and sense of self justification.

I want to be a good doctor period. I want a chance to do that in the USofA. Whoever gives me the shot is gonna get a kid driven to do well on USMLE step one and to get a quality residency in a city my wife can thrive in with her work. I think the majority of DO applicants share my sentiments and are accepting of OMM as just acquiring another skill that could benefit our patients.

I don't see any evidence for the grandiose separate vision of the osteopathic eduation. I see it as simply a medical education. Furthermore, if the goal is to integrate effectively with other professionals on our merits, I think a philosophy based in reality serves everyone better. Osteopaths are physicians. Your phiosophies are your philosophies. An MD or a DO can be interested in alternative medical models and approaches.

Any thoughts about the way I see things, because I'm curious about how my perspective will be recieved from osteopathic interviewers and adcoms?

Huh??? After reading your post like 3 times, yeah, I like your style dude.

 

[czanetti]

i think this is a great perspective. I especially do agree with the statement that some ppl choose a DO path for the fact of "some extra skills" that you learn and that may be beneficial( which i have seen with my own, bare eyes while shadowing my DO) for the patients. The bottom line is that if you want to be a DOCTOR, for the sake of the whole idea about medicine, then the degree or letters after your name shouldn't matter to you.

But from my own observation, shadowing a DO, talkig to some DO schools and even a simple interview feedback on this page, i will feel more like home at the DO school...and like i said i could have done MD ( i would be doing my first year right now, paying a rediculously small 8k per year) but i resigned and i chose DO because i want to know everything possible that can to help my patient.
OMM is amazing...even Harvard teaches it now and as a DO i will not have to take extra courses to know how to do it.
Saves money too😀

I think that there is a distinction now I wouldn't be hell bent on saying that there is an extremely large one but there is a distinction between MD and DO. You can compare the situation to our political system, the Two party system accept the MD is going to stand for both dominant parties. The DO is more like a 3rd party running on the same basic principles as the main parties but has a slight distinction or concentration in an area of particular interest. There SCHOOL philosophy is to teach a patient centered approach with an application of OMM added to the mix. That being said just like our political system over time the dominant party groups swallow up the 3rd party group by utilizing there ideas to make there program better (it's a good thing). The only thing is that this "3rd" party (DO) has been able to stay afloat because of its "strategic elitist" support (also a good thing). This can be analogous to the 3rd party getting enough votes by the people to be founded by the government and officially recognized at a political party(really good thing).

Now to speak about OMM which I also see as something that can additionally help patients. I might be alone on this but this is one thing that really attracted me to DO because it was an example of taking the philosophy and actually implementing it into physical means. When I started reading about it I thought the aspects of integrating catastrophe theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catastrophe_theory) chaos theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory) makes the transition of cold science to a living chaotic system that is a human being more tangible.

Now to speak for the "holistic" aspect of Osteopathic medicine, the fact that they mention it as a concentration in DO medicine I think is true, yet I think this is more of its 3rd party historical roots coming out than a true distinction from MD (because as I said earlier the Dominant political parties swallow up the liked aspects of the 3rd parties). Now because I am not a student yet (but will be this coming August 07 at TCOM YAY) I can not say with absolute certainty that there is a true distinction at all, maybe it is just hyped up.
** My own true belief is that it really doesn't matter where you train and get your degree it is solely dependent on the type of person you are that will really determine how you practice medicine. I chose DO because it seemed to be in cadence with how I would like to see myself as a doctor, this doesn't mean that I thought that by going MD I wouldn't be the same doctor but the distinctions that I read about persuaded me to take this path. I do think there is a historical distinction between the two but because of inferiority complex of students that go the DO route because they didn't get accepted to MD and the lack of knowledge that the public has about the DO profession creates core identity issues with the DO degree. All this is what contributes to the constant questioning and comparing of the two degrees. No matter where you go and what degree you get you will come across pompous arrogant jerks that put you down (no matter where you came from or what degree you have) once you realize this the better off you will be. I mean one thing that you can say is almost a benefit of the DO degree is that you go into this program having to explain to everyone what it is and why it is distinct, you expect to be put down and go in knowing that you are going to have to work even harder to prove your worthiness to be in this profession its in a way a bigger challenge which will better prepare your mindset and persistence to do well. My 2 cents.

 

[luckyfool]

ignorants deserve to be shot. i urge you all to keep a 9mm ready in your pockets.

 

[Nasrudin]

But from my own observation, shadowing a DO, talkig to some DO schools and even a simple interview feedback on this page, i will feel more like home at the DO school...and like i said i could have done MD ( i would be doing my first year right now, paying a rediculously small 8k per year) but i resigned and i chose DO because i want to know everything possible that can to help my patient.
OMM is amazing...even Harvard teaches it now and as a DO i will not have to take extra courses to know how to do it.

Saves money too😀[/QUOTE]

Wow. That's great that you found something that you believe that much in. I'm sure someone that dedicated towards seeking a knowledge they believe will be helpful to their patients will make a fine physican. You have my respect. Myself... I would have chosen the $8000/ yr tuition in a heartbeat and picked up the OMM later in my career. I really believe in the practice of yoga for example, in the treatment and prevention of musculoskeletal disorders like Chronic Low Back Pain. Both from my experience as a patient of herniated disc surgery, and from a research project for a hollistic health class where I really dug into the clinical efficacy of yoga and the clinical trials that justify its use as a therapy for chronic low back pain. These types of things interest me as a person and will affect my career as a physican--god willing of course--and what I want to do with my career.

I am however finding no evidence to suggest that an osteopathic school will enable these pursuits anymore than an allopathic school. I consider price, location, and clinical affiliations with good hospitals and residency programs, and structure of the 3rd and 4th year education to be foremost of my consideration of any school that accepts me--presuming i'm fortunate enough to be accepted by any school osteopathic or allopathic.

All the research I've done or people I've talked to said these things were more important considerations for looking at med schools, Osteopathic or Allopathic being secondary considerations for me. I have the suspicion that consideration of philosophies of different schools are more the notions and creations of the potential students than the operating principles of working medical schools. This however could have an effect on the overall student population and thus the vibe one feels from the school...and of course that that's an important consideration.

Where does that leave the the appicant to osteopathic schools who believes in analizing the relative practical abilities of a medical school in question to deliver high quality clinical education rather than any expressed philosophy of a school or type curricilum, ie osteopathic? Where does that leave the applicant who believes in philosophy as an indivual's expression and the junction of student/school to be the exchange of money (and lots of it) for a spot and chance to learn take board exams and aplly for residencies?

Any thoughts?

 

[Kuba]

Great posts Nasrudin👍 . You share my sentiments. I just read the last paragraph again though, and I disagree with it. I think that a candidate who does not believe in ANY difference in philosophies should not consider osteopathic medical schools. They will be dissapointed when the school starts talking about it and they don't want to hear it.

 

[scpod]

I am however, put off by the reactionary, self-pride of some on the DO path, that actually see themselves as a "different" kind of doctor due to the more patient centered philosophies and methodologies when clearly the economics of expanding, extremely expensive, DO schools and a lack of increasing numbers and quality of residencies does not edify a more holistic and patient centered philosophy but rather sound fundamental venture capitalist goals with the idea of giving the consumer an oppurtunity to practice medicine, period.

You talk about the osteopathic philosophy, the opening of new schools and the lack of new residencies as if they were all directly related, when in actuality they are apples, oranges and pears.

While there is actually a "for profit" DO school on the horizon, nobody is making any money off of tuition. DO school tuition is typically higher because they don't have the endowment, research dollars, state funding, hospital revenue or alumni contributions, etc. that many allopathic schools have. So, tuition is higher. Tuition pays for <10% of the cost of education at allopathic schools, but somewhere between 15% and 50% for DO schools. Tuition barely scratches the surface when it comes to paying for your education. This "venture capitalist" idea of yours is faulty.

Graduate Medical Education (GME) is mostly paid for by Medicare and the number of spots is limited by a governmentally imposed cap. You can't just say we need more spots and have them magically appear. The AOA, or any other organization, can't force hospitals to go through all the crap required to revise the cap. It's not an easy process. However, there are more than enough residency slots in the US right now since thousands go to FMG's every year-- just not enough good osteopathic ones. More than 1/2 of this year's DO graduates will end up in an allopathic residency, just like happens every year. The number of osteopathic residencies will NEVER catch up to the number of graduates. While DO's account for only 6% of practicing physicians today, one in every 5 new medical students is now a DO student. It would be foolhardy to try to open up that many osteopathic residencies. The smart thing to do at this point is to just try to consolidate these residencies under one big umbrella. The osteopathic residency system is broken-- you could say it is diseased. Using allopathic residencies is the "rational" way to treat it for now, and using rational treatments is part of the osteopathic philosophy after all, isn't it?

I don't see any evidence for the grandiose separate vision of the osteopathic eduation. I see it as simply a medical education...Any thoughts about the way I see things, because I'm curious about how my perspective will be recieved from osteopathic interviewers and adcoms?

You already know the answer to that; it'll be received poorly-- if you actually have the guts to repeat some of this face-to-face to your interviewers. Whether or not YOU believe in the separate vision of osteopathy, you can bet that the admissions committee does.

 

[dr.kicia]

Where does that leave the the appicant to osteopathic schools who believes in analizing the relative practical abilities of a medical school in question to deliver high quality clinical education rather than any expressed philosophy of a school or type curricilum, ie osteopathic? Where does that leave the applicant who believes in philosophy as an indivual's expression and the junction of student/school to be the exchange of money (and lots of it) for a spot and chance to learn take board exams and aplly for residencies?

Any thoughts?

I do not want to repeat myself but:
anybody can be a great doctor...you just have to REALLY want it.

I really want it, and i want DO. I am not narrowminded and i do not care about the letters after my name. i do care, though, about the things i will be able to do as a physician.
Maybe the part of me is just very ipressed with a DO i shadow and the things he can do (ie heal the patient's painn, in just 2 minutes, after device implant with OMM ). My jaw was at the floor when i saw him do it...all i thought was :"I want to learen how to fo what you just did!!!".
Before i run across SDN i didn't even know what a DO was...i didn;t even know what an MD was...all for me was just doctor.
I could apply do MD schools but i really feel DO...so i am not going to waste money applying to schools i am not willing to go to...I am DO all the way!!!!
Even the campus of my #1 choice feels like home😀

 

[Nasrudin]

You talk about the osteopathic philosophy, the opening of new schools and the lack of new residencies as if they were all directly related, when in actuality they are apples, oranges and pears.

....

You already know the answer to that; it'll be received poorly-- if you actually have the guts to repeat some of this face-to-face to your interviewers. Whether or not YOU believe in the separate vision of osteopathy, you can bet that the admissions committee does.

Alright that's the type of anwer I needed. Thank you. I just hadn't seen that type of honesty on this board with regards to osteopathy's lack of residency quality. Truthfully i just assumed the higher tuitions and expansions must be for a profit motive. Although you gave me the more important take home thought--they have a medical school not me and if they have a vision its up to me to convince them I have a place in their class. I feel I can do this without being untruthful based on my passion for being a doctor and a curiosity about omm...the rest is all a matter of preparation for board exams and getting what I want out of the deal--a good residency.

 

[G.O.A.T.]

i think DO's are just as competent and well trained as MD's. i don't know why there is such a bias against them. i hope that one day DO's are allowed to practice on their own, without having to be supervised by MD's.


that was a joke, by the way, so calm down. seriously though, you guys need to get rid of this inferiority complex (just not too soon.........it's the only reason i come into the pre-osteo forum........it's freaking halarious). DO, MD it doesn't matter. it's the person behind the initials, not the initials behind the person. if you guys really and truly believed this, you wouldn't let yourself get all worked up over the "ignorant ******s" (as you so eloquently put it......my cousin has down's, so thanks for that) who think otherwise or don't know any better. if you truly believed all this stuff you are spouting, you would just be like what an idiot, and not waste your time thinking another second about it.

like some dude said, DO's only make up 6% of all physicians......so you can't be surprised if people are uninformed about what a DO is. even as a pre-med, i didn't know what an osteopath was until i filled out tmdsas and saw tcom on there.

to the dude that said DO tuition only covers 15 -85% of your tuition, who pays the other 50 - 85%?

and to the dude that said MD's need to be taught how to palpate, that was funny. i really hope you don't believe that.

oh and to the dude that said there is no philosophical dif b/w MD's and DO's......right on brother. you hit the nail on the head. that is something pre-meds perpetuate. we have DO residents, attendings, and even chairmen at our school and they are no different than their MD counterparts.

look how this thread exploded. you are just feeding the fire. be happy with your choice and don't feel the need to defend it to the haters, b/c i promise you, you could devise the most logical, sincere explanation of osteopathy and it would not change their minds. they need to put someone else down to make themselve feel rightous.