Are you kidding me?!

[tongiecc]

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I was baffled when I took a gander at some of the "diploma mill list" threads school websites. Particularly if you look at notre dame of maryland's, the home page was plastered with giant "apply now" and "follow us on facebook" buttons/links. This seemed subpar for a presumed professional program. What's next, DeVry/ITTtech combined PharmD/massage therapy degrees that you can get in 9 months online?! What do all of you think of this devolution of our profession and shameless self promotion on what should be the webpage of a professional program that doesn't implicitly "go begging" for students?

 

[PumpkinSmasher]

I was baffled when I took a gander at some of the "diploma mill list" threads school websites. Particularly if you look at notre dame of maryland's, the home page was plastered with giant "apply now" and "follow us on facebook" buttons/links. This seemed subpar for a presumed professional program. What's next, DeVry/ITTtech combined PharmD/massage therapy degrees that you can get in 9 months online?! What do all of you think of this devolution of our profession and shameless self promotion on what should be the webpage of a professional program that doesn't implicitly "go begging" for students?

That is why a required residency is going to be so important.

 

[pinksparkly]

I was baffled when I took a gander at some of the "diploma mill list" threads school websites. Particularly if you look at notre dame of maryland's, the home page was plastered with giant "apply now" and "follow us on facebook" buttons/links. This seemed subpar for a presumed professional program.

Funny, their adcom looks down on community colleges:

Students taking science courses at community colleges should check with the School Office of Admissions to determine if the course will meet the pre-requisite requirement. It is unlikely that Anatomy and Physiology and Microbiology at community colleges will meet the pre-requisite requirement and applicants must take the course at a 4 year institution.

🙄 I've taken A & P at both a 4 yr institution and a CC. I've paid $2000 for the course (10 yrs ago) and $500 (last year). The CC course was vastly superior.

If I take it at ITTtech will it count?

*steps down from soapbox*

 

[Carboxide]

Funny, their adcom looks down on community colleges:

🙄 I've taken A & P at both a 4 yr institution and a CC. I've paid $2000 for the course (10 yrs ago) and $500 (last year). The CC course was vastly superior.

If I take it at ITTtech will it count?

*steps down from soapbox*

You can start this debate for the hundredth time or not. But the fact of the matter is, there are so many CCs with extremely low standards (did yours curve to a C average? I bet not) that it's not a reliable estimate as it is with a four year university.

 

[deleted205891]

just letting you know that other prof. schools also promote themselves when they're new. For example, in Philly there are (or at least were) big billboards for Drexel med school and law school in various places.

But otherwise I'm not arguing the fact that opening more schools (regardless of their quality) is harm done to our profession.

 

[quartel]

That is why a required residency is going to be so important.

let's not kid ourselves, the pharmacy profession is doomed to go the way of the Law school. Already tiers are forming. The only thing that can prolong the inevitable is an increase in demand that can't be met with the supply of graduates.

For me, I go to class everyday with the assumption that I will only have 5~7 years of employment before pharmacy jobs suddenly start to become scarce. I'm honestly prepared for the prospect of saving money up to start a business.

 

[aboveliquidice]

let's not kid ourselves, the pharmacy profession is doomed to go the way of the Law school. Already tiers are forming. The only thing that can prolong the inevitable is an increase in demand that can't be met with the supply of graduates.

For me, I go to class everyday with the assumption that I will only have 5~7 years of employment before pharmacy jobs suddenly start to become scarce. I'm honestly prepared for the prospect of saving money up to start a business.

Your perspective has been tarnished by this forum. There exists many opportunities. As a new grad, I was offered three great jobs. The one I worked for the most is the one I went with. Many of my classmates were in the same position. The ones that didn't have a job had been lazy and did not attempt a job search until after graduation.

It won't be handed to you, but your career is out there.

 

[Medwell]

You can start this debate for the hundredth time or not. But the fact of the matter is, there are so many CCs with extremely low standards (did yours curve to a C average? I bet not) that it's not a reliable estimate as it is with a four year university.

Seconded. I don't know what all the pro-CC people on this website are talking about. I've heard logic on SDN like "I withdrew from Organic at my university, took it at a CC and got an A. It wasn't easier, the professor just focused on the important stuff and didn't try to trick us." I'm sorry, but that means it was easier. Just because you had a more relaxed time at CC, doesn't mean it gave you a better education.

Back in high school I took a statistics course at a CC and it was literally the easiest class I've ever taken, including my high school classes. The guy told us exactly what would be on every test, made them open-book and open-note, and let us drop as many tests as we wanted (except for the final). Then on TOP of all that, he made the first one a take-home.

One friend from my high school did his senior year at a CC (instead of going to hs) and described it as a "nice break before starting university." Another friend went to a CC for two years and got a 4.0. She's told me, "I don't see how you couldn't get 100% on every test" regarding her Physics 2 class. She no longer has a 4.0 after her first semester at university.

 

[rph3664]

The community college experience is going to vary widely, depending on where you go. My personal experience was that the classes were just as difficult as those at a university, and I certainly saw plenty of people flunk out. It totally depends on the teacher.

 

[therxist]

Your perspective has been tarnished by this forum. There exists many opportunities. As a new grad, I was offered three great jobs. The one I worked for the most is the one I went with. Many of my classmates were in the same position. The ones that didn't have a job had been lazy and did not attempt a job search until after graduation.

It won't be handed to you, but your career is out there.

This is exactly my thought. I just passed my state boards last week and already had a couple DM's calling me for upcoming shifts. Of course, unlike the old days, those jobs are not across the street from my house. But if I'm willing to accept them, they are readily available for me.

 

[owlegrad]

Seconded. I don't know what all the pro-CC people on this website are talking about. I've heard logic on SDN like "I withdrew from Organic at my university, took it at a CC and got an A. It wasn't easier, the professor just focused on the important stuff and didn't try to trick us." I'm sorry, but that means it was easier. Just because you had a more relaxed time at CC, doesn't mean it gave you a better education.

Back in high school I took a statistics course at a CC and it was literally the easiest class I've ever taken, including my high school classes. The guy told us exactly what would be on every test, made them open-book and open-note, and let us drop as many tests as we wanted (except for the final). Then on TOP of all that, he made the first one a take-home.

One friend from my high school did his senior year at a CC (instead of going to hs) and described it as a "nice break before starting university." Another friend went to a CC for two years and got a 4.0. She's told me, "I don't see how you couldn't get 100% on every test" regarding her Physics 2 class. She no longer has a 4.0 after her first semester at university.

Look to me it's a simple choice. Would you rather have no debt for your undergrad education (you can come out ahead financially if you work while in CC, try that at a university) and have plenty of time for work/EC or spend a disgusting amount of money for undergrad and have less time for ECs? Who do you think the committees accept, those students who have high GPAs and tons of ECs/experience or those whose only accomplishment is "I went to a four year institute".

I don't blame you guys for trying to convince yourselves that CCs are inferior; if I spent that much money on undergrad I would want to think that as well.

 

[naus]

That is why a required residency is going to be so important.

Except retail wouldn't care if you did a residency or not, nor would they care about the reputation of the pharm school.

 

[Medwell]

Look to me it's a simple choice. Would you rather have no debt for your undergrad education (you can come out ahead financially if you work while in CC, try that at a university) and have plenty of time for work/EC or spend a disgusting amount of money for undergrad and have less time for ECs? Who do you think the committees accept, those students who have high GPAs and tons of ECs/experience or those whose only accomplishment is "I went to a four year institute".

I don't blame you guys for trying to convince yourselves that CCs are inferior; if I spent that much money on undergrad I would want to think that as well.

No idea what you're talking about, bro. I'm a 3rd-year engineering major at a top 50 school. I get one scholarship, work 15 hours/week, and am not in any debt so far (3.88 GPA to date). And with that high-paid internship I did at a Top 25 Fortune company over the summer, I certainly came out financially ahead last year. 😀 You think I would have gotten that internship if I went to a CC? Hell no - that company doesn't even recruit from the 2nd-best school in the state, why would they take a CCer? Universities ARE superior, regardless of what your parents/hs guidance counselor told you to make you feel better.

Plus, football is awesome. Da, na na na na - GO GATORS!!

 

[Marcus X]

I took some parts of organic chemistry at a local CC and other parts at the UC from which I graduated. I also took a few other classes at the CC when the timing worked out better.

I can definitely say that the classes at the CC were significantly easier than at UCSD. They just expected much less of you.

 

[owlegrad]

No idea what you're talking about, bro. I'm a 3rd-year engineering major at a top 50 school. I get one scholarship, work 15 hours/week, and am not in any debt so far (3.88 GPA to date). And with that high-paid internship I did at a Top 25 Fortune company over the summer, I certainly came out financially ahead last year. 😀 You think I would have gotten that internship if I went to a CC? Hell no - that company doesn't even recruit from the 2nd-best school in the state, why would they take a CCer? Universities ARE superior, regardless of what your parents/hs guidance counselor told you to make you feel better.

Plus, football is awesome. Da, na na na na - GO GATORS!!

Look you can believe whatever you want. But financially it just doesn't make sense to go to a university if you can do the same credits at a CC. In your case (no debt, better opportunities) - hey, that's great! Go for it. But I suspect you are in a very small minority. One last thought - I don't know of any pharmacy internship where your undergrad education plays even the smallest role. I don't even think it matters what pharmacy school you go to for that matter. I can't speak for engineering but I just don't think it matters in pharmacy.

I definitely support your last point - GO GATORS!

 

[Carboxide]

Look to me it's a simple choice. Would you rather have no debt for your undergrad education (you can come out ahead financially if you work while in CC, try that at a university) and have plenty of time for work/EC or spend a disgusting amount of money for undergrad and have less time for ECs? Who do you think the committees accept, those students who have high GPAs and tons of ECs/experience or those whose only accomplishment is "I went to a four year institute".

I don't blame you guys for trying to convince yourselves that CCs are inferior; if I spent that much money on undergrad I would want to think that as well.

Why would you have less time for ECs at a university unless the classes were harder and you had to study more?

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I think there's no right answer to the CC vs. university debate. I've taken community college classes that were outstanding. I've taken university classes that were very easy. A lot of it depends on the institution and frankly, on the student. You'll get out of your education what you put into it, no matter where you go to school.

 

[owlegrad]

Why would you have less time for ECs at a university unless the classes were harder and you had to study more?

I am willing to stipulate that on the whole CC classes are probably easier than university classes. I just don't get why anyone considers that a bad thing. Harder =/= Better. Almost nothing from undergrad will help you be a good pharmacist (if anyone feels differently please chime in), so why not go to the cheaper, easier choice? Cheaper, more time for work/EC's plus (mostly) easier grades? What is the down side?

You will never convince me that you learn more in a class simply because it is harder, although if that's what you believe I can respect that. If it's hard because you cover more topics (or the same topics more in depth) that's one thing, if it's harder because you have a terrible professor, etc., well all your doing is paying more money for a harder class. Hooray!

 

[owlegrad]

I think there's no right answer to the CC vs. university debate. I've taken community college classes that were outstanding. I've taken university classes that were very easy. A lot of it depends on the institution and frankly, on the student. You'll get out of your education what you put into it, no matter where you go to school.

This is one of the more popular fruitless debate, huh? I swear we should just keep a list of stock answers ready to post at all times. Someone posting about CC's vs. Uni? Open up Word file "SDN Stock Ans" go to answer #27 "CC vs. Uni." copy - paste - post. Done and Done.

 

[Carboxide]

I am willing to stipulate that on the whole CC classes are probably easier than university classes. I just don't get why anyone considers that a bad thing. Harder =/= Better. Almost nothing from undergrad will help you be a good pharmacist (if anyone feels differently please chime in), so why not go to the cheaper, easier choice? Cheaper, more time for work/EC's plus (mostly) easier grades? What is the down side?

You will never convince me that you learn more in a class simply because it is harder, although if that's what you believe I can respect that. If it's hard because you cover more topics (or the same topics more in depth) that's one thing, if it's harder because you have a terrible professor, etc., well all your doing is paying more money for a harder class. Hooray!

You know, that's really exactly the point. Your A from CC doesn't make you as smart or as motivated as someone with an A from uni, because YOUR A WAS EASIER TO GET. THAT'S THE POINT - IT MEANS LESS.

It's like why a degree from the University of Phoenix means less than a degree from a big state university. If anyone can get in and anyone can get a degree (or an A in a CC), then what's that mean about you? Not much.

 

[owlegrad]

You know, that's really exactly the point. Your A from CC doesn't make you as smart or as motivated as someone with an A from uni, because YOUR A WAS EASIER TO GET. THAT'S THE POINT - IT MEANS LESS.

It's like why a degree from the University of Phoenix means less than a degree from a big state university. If anyone can get in and anyone can get a degree (or an A in a CC), then what's that mean about you? Not much.

I have to disagree. I doubt that anyone is smarter than me just because I went to a CC and that person else went to a university. As for my A meaning less...That's for an admission committee to decide and they decided in my favor. You may believe whatever you want about your undergrad education being superior to mine, but what objective measure would you use to prove it? I got good grades, scored high on the PCAT, got into pharmacy school and am doing well enough in my studies. What more could I want from my CC? It got me exactly where I wanted to be, with less debt/stress than if I had gone to a university. I just cannot see the down side, no matter how I look at it. I feel like I am debating with someone who is arguing that it is better to pay more for less. How exactly is making it harder to get an A a superior learning environment?

My classes covered the same topics as everyone else's and I am willing to bet that I was at least as prepared as any of my university classmates to handle pharmacy school. And not everyone can get an A in CC but I am not gonna try to argue the point. It just depends on what you want out of your undergrad experience I guess.

To me it is much better to spend less, get good grades, and have time for work/ECs/friends/family. If you are looking for unnecessarily high tuition and more "challenging" classes, go with a university I guess. If their are other good reasons to pick a university please share.

Edit: Also you don't need to shout, I can hear you just fine.

 

[thedrunkenpharm]

When I took 1st semester Chemistry at CC, it was so much harder than any chemistry I took later in my Universities. Then again, my CC prof had two degrees from Cornell, so that's not typical of CC.

I loved CC very much and it definitely helped me get into UNC's pharmacy program in 2+4 since it helped me transition smoothly from High School to University.

Don't frown upon CC. I never regretted it.

 

[Sparda29]

Any undergraduate school that charges more than $5000/year for tuition is a joke.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

My community college was awesome. Just look at their ghetto ass website. $700 a semester back in the early 00s when I was there. I didn't even have to pay that. They gave me a full scholarship because I got a 32 on my ACT. I spent two years being treated like I was some sort of hilljack Archimedes. Good times.

 

[KARM12]

My community college was awesome. Just look at their ghetto ass website. $700 a semester back in the early 00s when I was there. I didn't even have to pay that. They gave me a full scholarship because I got a 32 on my ACT. I spent two years being treated like I was some sort of hilljack Archimedes. Good times.

The place still offers a bachelor's degree? Random.

 

[JADpharm28]

Currently, I am at a CC and all of the teachers I have had are really awesome and don't give out easy A's. I'm actually doing more work than my friends who go to universities. All they do is play video games and go out 24-7 because they have nothing else to do. They barely get any work. Then again, my CC is trying to become more than what they are and they want to be able to be a 4 year school. Not really sure how that works though....

 

[b1234]

You can start this debate for the hundredth time or not. But the fact of the matter is, there are so many CCs with extremely low standards (did yours curve to a C average? I bet not) that it's not a reliable estimate as it is with a four year university.

How many four year universities curve to a C average nowadays?...

 

[Farcus]

Funny, their adcom looks down on community colleges:

🙄 I've taken A & P at both a 4 yr institution and a CC. I've paid $2000 for the course (10 yrs ago) and $500 (last year). The CC course was vastly superior.

If I take it at ITTtech will it count?

*steps down from soapbox*

It will vary a lot but as far as i have experienced, people generally from a CC doesn't compared up to a legit 4year university. Seen it way too many times. Same test, generally the person from 4th year university generally do better than the CCers. Obviously there are always a few exceptions.

 

[genesis09]

How many four year universities curve to a C average nowadays?...

It depends on the class. They had to do it in Physics because the average exam scores were always below a 70, and they did not want to flunk that many.

 

[PharMed2016]

Currently, I am at a CC and all of the teachers I have had are really awesome and don't give out easy A's. I'm actually doing more work than my friends who go to universities. All they do is play video games and go out 24-7 because they have nothing else to do. They barely get any work. Then again, my CC is trying to become more than what they are and they want to be able to be a 4 year school. Not really sure how that works though....

I guess it really depends on where you went for your primary undergraduate education. At least for me, I found that my primary undergrad university was more challenging than the state university and nearby CC that I attended for a few classes. There's is nothing wrong with a CC... nowadays it is all a numbers game and if you can't pull the numbers, forget about further education. Remember whatever route you take... just be sure at the end of the day when you are learning what counts that you really know your material so you don't kill a patient.

 

[Carboxide]

How many four year universities curve to a C average nowadays?...

Mine did...we did a real curve and all classes went to a 75% average.

 

[confettiflyer]

Funny, their adcom looks down on community colleges:

🙄 I've taken A & P at both a 4 yr institution and a CC. I've paid $2000 for the course (10 yrs ago) and $500 (last year). The CC course was vastly superior.

If I take it at ITTtech will it count?

*steps down from soapbox*

My top 50/tier 1 undergraduate school didn't even teach anatomy lab. They told us to take it at the local CC for "professional school prereq's" hahaha.

 

[confettiflyer]

It depends on the class. They had to do it in Physics because the average exam scores were always below a 70, and they did not want to flunk that many.

our average in physics was 34% once...the highest score in the class was a 48% or so. man, i miss curves =(

 

[owlegrad]

our average in physics was 34% once...the highest score in the class was a 48% or so. man, i miss curves =(

My calc class was like that. I think the average was like 57%. Huge curve upward to make sure most of the class passed. I was pushed from a low C to an A. Good times.

 

[kvl1027]

It will vary a lot but as far as i have experienced, people generally from a CC doesn't compared up to a legit 4year university. Seen it way too many times. Same test, generally the person from 4th year university generally do better than the CCers. Obviously there are always a few exceptions.

What is interesting is that you will find individuals who make the same argument against NSU. I can't say anything about you, but in my experience pharmacy students who were attending NSU haven't been up to par, but that doesn't mean I should make a generalization about all students from NSU. It wouldn't be fair to you or the others in your class who know their S**t.