Arguments in Adcom meetings over applicants?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
SullansAndMarians said:
Have any adcoms on SDN ever been in an adcom meeting where an argument broke out over whether to offer an interview or acceptance to an applicant that got really heated, even nasty? @Goro , @LizzyM , and @gonnif I'm curious to know if you've ever witnessed such a thing.
Click to expand...
No. We discuss, and then we vote
 
Goro said:
No. We discuss, and then we vote
Click to expand...
Man, your meetings sound lame.

This is actual video footage of an adcom meeting at my school:

tenor.gif


tumblr_mbrgxa2nsh1ry1q7do1_500.gif


ipWW8ZafqTAqc.gif


In all seriousness, OP, it's not uncommon for interviewers -- either regular or MMI -- to have different opinions of the same candidate. I've seen instances in which one candidate gets a 7/10 evaluation at one MMI station, then gets 2/10 at the next one. That usually has to do with them saying something outrageous: overly arrogant, for example, or unnecessarily judgmental. That's why adcoms use so many different things to evaluate each person: by increasing the number of data points, you increase the odds of the best and worst candidates separating themselves from the crowd. But arguing? Med schools don't have much trouble filling their rosters, so adcoms don't need to argue over divisive candidates. They'll just discuss, vote, and move on.
 
Last edited:
ChymeofPassion said:
How often is there a dissenting opinion? Is a unanimous YES or NO required (at the acceptance stage).
Click to expand...

I'd say there's at least one dissenting opinion on about half of applicants that we review. No, a unanimous vote is not required, and we can't spend more than a few minutes discussing one applicant.
 
“On the next episodes of The Real Admission Commitee of New York Medical School, Dr. Fischer and Dr. Brown hash it out over the 520 MCAT student with no real clinical experience


“but he published in Nature!”

“You only like him because he went to your alma!” ”
 
CloverBale said:
“On the next episodes of The Real Admission Commitee of New York Medical School, Dr. Fischer and Dr. Brown hash it out over the 520 MCAT student with no real clinical experience


“but he published in Nature!”

“You only like him because he went to your alma!” ”
Click to expand...

CAN YOU IMAGINE an actual pre-med reality TV show?

"And here we see the Steve is still in the library, where we last saw him five hours ago, and 4 hours before that. Kathy started crying in the middle of the science building, left to get a latte, got locked out when she left, and is now deciding between climbing in through a fifth floor window or giving up and switching to accounting"
 
ekmf27050 said:
CAN YOU IMAGINE an actual pre-med reality TV show?

"And here we see the Steve is still in the library, where we last saw him five hours ago, and 4 hours before that. Kathy started crying in the middle of the science building, left to get a latte, got locked out when she left, and is now deciding between climbing in through a fifth floor window or giving up and switching to accounting"
Click to expand...

Giirrrrrlll, what about all of the drama? People at my school would literally *stab you in the back* in chem lab just to sabotage your grade. Or kids who would give you false notes.
 
ekmf27050 said:
CAN YOU IMAGINE an actual pre-med reality TV show?

"And here we see the Steve is still in the library, where we last saw him five hours ago, and 4 hours before that. Kathy started crying in the middle of the science building, left to get a latte, got locked out when she left, and is now deciding between climbing in through a fifth floor window or giving up and switching to accounting"
Click to expand...
80b3f3d6734ad50be8fb835f643f3920--it-crowd-.jpg
 
Reminds me of all those scenes in The Good Doctor. I also wondered if it was common for one adcom member to fiercely advocate for a student despite widespread concerns about his or her competency.
 
amerepedestrian said:
Reminds me of all those scenes in The Good Doctor. I also wondered if it was common for one adcom member to fiercely advocate for a student despite widespread concerns about his or her competency.
Click to expand...
It happens, and sometimes those advocates win the argument.
 
CloverBale said:
Giirrrrrlll, what about all of the drama? People at my school would literally *stab you in the back* in chem lab just to sabotage your grade. Or kids who would give you false notes.
Click to expand...
"And the final rose from Harvard Medical School goes to...... no one. They cut the class size, please apply next cycle, goodbye."
 
Stagg737 said:
You've never heard of gunners? Are you even a pre-med...
Click to expand...
Like... at my school people just wouldn't give notes, they didn't take time away from their studying to actively commit acts of sabotage. I must have had the mild gunner group.
 
ekmf27050 said:
Like... at my school people just wouldn't give notes, they didn't take time away from their studying to actively commit acts of sabotage. I must have had the mild gunner group.
Click to expand...

The word "gunner" has gotten so watered-down, and the people you're describing aren't gunners. If we're talking about the true definition, there's no such thing as a "mild gunner", just varying degrees of sociopaths who want to destroy every other pre-med.
 
At schools with students on the admission committee, do their voices carry the same weight as professors usually?

At one of my interviews I feel like i killed it with my student interviewer but the professor was a bit on the awkward side so we didnt connect as much...
Lannister said:
I'd say there's at least one dissenting opinion on about half of applicants that we review. No, a unanimous vote is not required, and we can't spend more than a few minutes discussing one applicant.
Click to expand...
 
Welshman said:
At schools with students on the admission committee, do their voices carry the same weight as professors usually?

At one of my interviews I feel like i killed it with my student interviewer but the professor was a bit on the awkward side so we didnt connect as much...
Click to expand...

At my school both the student interviewers and student adcoms carry the same amount of weight as faculty.
 
What makes candidates a unanimous no? What makes candidates a unanimous yes? I just can't imagine every single person that got waitlisted or rejected having said something really really bad or screwed up their interview horribly. So when it comes down to it, two similar candidates or two candidates that did equally well in the interview, what pushes someone in or out?
 
lol_new_user said:
What makes candidates a unanimous no? What makes candidates a unanimous yes? I just can't imagine every single person that got waitlisted or rejected having said something really really bad or screwed up their interview horribly. So when it comes down to it, two similar candidates or two candidates that did equally well in the interview, what pushes someone in or out?
Click to expand...

Your entire application is reviewed again after the interview. So people who are unanimously rejected may have said something terrible during the interview (it happens way more often than you'd expect), but more often it's because they have a terrible GPA and/or MCAT, or weak extracurriculars, and their interview just wasn't enough to make up for that.
 
lol_new_user said:
What makes candidates a unanimous no?
Click to expand...
It can be demeanor: bored, dismissive, arrogant, flippant, depressed or just strange.
It can also be pressured speech, flight of ideas, grandiosity.
Being rude to the staff is a quick no.
 
Lannister said:
Your entire application is reviewed again after the interview. So people who are unanimously rejected may have said something terrible during the interview (it happens way more often than you'd expect), but more often it's because they have a terrible GPA and/or MCAT, or weak extracurriculars, and their interview just wasn't enough to make up for that.
Click to expand...

Why even interview the latter group - low GPA/MCAT or weak extracurriculars? What's the point of getting their hopes up?

Just wondering. I'm pretty sure this was what got my my first post-interview rejection - I had no research and the school is locally known for doing a lot of research. 9 out of 10 of my interviews went very well (got a couple of "Wow!" reactions from interviewers when talking about my experience), one was horrible... but I don't think it would have been enough to kill the other nine good interviews. It still bothers me because that school was my first choice, and first rejection.
 
SullansAndMarians said:
Have any adcoms on SDN ever been in an adcom meeting where an argument broke out over whether to offer an interview or acceptance to an applicant that got really heated, even nasty? @Goro , @LizzyM , and @gonnif I'm curious to know if you've ever witnessed such a thing.
Click to expand...
All admissions disputes at my school are settled via trial by combat. We'e pretty low on staff lately, come to think of it...
 
Mad Jack said:
All admissions disputes at my school are settled via trial by combat. We'e pretty low on staff lately, come to think of it...
Click to expand...

Come to think of it, interview invitation emails should really come with the option of "conversational interview" or "interview by combat" and the applicant can check a box with their preference.
 
lol_new_user said:
What makes candidates a unanimous no? What makes candidates a unanimous yes? I just can't imagine every single person that got waitlisted or rejected having said something really really bad or screwed up their interview horribly. So when it comes down to it, two similar candidates or two candidates that did equally well in the interview, what pushes someone in or out?
Click to expand...
Firs off, it's not a zero sum game. But with only a limited number of seats and a surplus of candidates, schools can and select out even strong candidates. Not everybody can be medal winners in the Olympics.

gyngyn said:
It can be demeanor: bored, dismissive, arrogant, flippant, depressed or just strange.
It can also be pressured speech, flight of ideas, grandiosity.
Being rude to the staff is a quick no.
Click to expand...
I've written about this in my guide to interviews. To asdd to the wise gyngyn's comments:

Here are some things that get people rejected immediately:
Being unprofessional for any reason. An example is addressing a faculty member by their first name. Another is chewing gum during the interview. If you have a dry mouth, suck on a lozenge instead. BTW, the interview lasts all day. Acting unprofessionally during your tour, like yelling at a parking attendant, or trashing the school, or expecting the Admissions Office staff to hang up your coat or fetch you coffee is duly noted and affects your fate accordingly.

Not taking the interview seriously, like showing up poorly dressed. This is suit and tie time (and nice dress/outfit/suit for the ladies). You're going into character. Yes, if the airline loses your luggage, we understand that.
  • Do NOT be arrogant. People who think that they're God's gift to Medicine do not go into Medicine.

  • Being too shy or nervous. Being quiet is OK; being monosyllabic or robotic is not.

Not making eye contact is also a no-no (yes I'm aware that in some cultures, one does not look elders in the eye, but this is the USA and you need to look people in the eye here).

Any hints of immaturity will be lethal for your chances. We expect you to be thoughtful and self-aware. Would you admit the gal who, when asked a hypothetical, "What would you do in this situation?" answers, "Oh, that wouldn't happen."

Showing you're greedy.

Showing any hint of entitlement. This includes the “I was accepted to XSOM, so what are you going to do for me?” The answer will be “Good luck and have fun at XSOM.”

  • Being clueless as to why you're choosing Medicine as a career.
  • Doing this because your mom/dad wants you to be a doctor (or don't think you can be doctor).

    Completely lacking people skills (4.0 automatons are a dime a dozen, really).

    Showing that you're more interested in research than Medicine. This might be OK at Stanford, but it won’t fly at most other schools.
  • Still being the hyper-gunner...I rejected a 4.0 gal who wanted to answer the questions I asked of another person in the interview panel. I don't want to admit someone who will be in my office whining about how they got a 95 on an exam and deserved a 96.

    Having a flat affect. This might be due to medication, or a mental or personality disorder. You ever meet someone who could never crack a smile? I don't want someone like that touching patients.
  • Copping an attitude. I asked a woman why she didn't have any volunteer experience. She replied that she was too busy working. Fair enough, some people have lives, but she copped an attitude while delivering this, and I just wrote down "reject".
Coming in with scripted answers and being unable to deviate from said script.

Being ill-prepared for fairly common interview questions (e.g. Why this school? Why Medicine?)

Thinking that always circling back to your accomplishments and how great you are impresses us.

Making excuses for misdeeds. We had rejected someone once who had some fairly benign misdemeanors, but blamed it on the policemen who gave him the tickets.

Don’t do show and tell. I don’t want you pulling out a binder with your resume or portfolio. Let your application speak for you.

Being a babbling idiot. These are those people who can't answer a question concisely. I've sure you've met people like this...why bother using one word when ten will do? I suspect that they’re thinking for an answer while they're speaking, so the mouth is going while the brain tries to come up with something.

It’s OK to gather your thoughts, but it’s not OK to blank out. This group includes the people who do something like this (and I am NOT making this up!):

goro: So tell me about this trip to Honduras
Interviewee: Well, we went there for a mission trip and...what was the question?
goro: (thinking: reject!)


Or the guy who, when asked "How does your hobby relate to the practice of Medicine?", and can't even say "It doesn't", and definitely can't even BS an answer, but sits there in a coma?

calivianya said:
Why even interview the latter group - low GPA/MCAT or weak extracurriculars? What's the point of getting their hopes up?
Click to expand...
Because sometimes people have compelling stories, or have made up for a low cGPA by reinventing themselves, or have some killer ECs.
 
Goro said:
Firs off, it's not a zero sum game. But with only a limited number of seats and a surplus of candidates, schools can and select out even strong candidates. Not everybody can be medal winners in the Olympics.
Click to expand...
How large of a portion of interviewees are auto-rejects typically?
 
Goro said:
It's rare! My committee meets every three weeks or so, and maybe 1/100 candidates are outright and unanimously rejected.
Click to expand...
Best story from what an applicant did to be unanimously rejected?
 
Microbug said:
Best story from what an applicant did to be unanimously rejected?
Click to expand...
Mine is actually the 4.0 Miss Perfect Hyperacheiver I mentioned above. One could almost imagine having her as a student....ask a question and she'd be the witht he arm int he air, going "Oooh!! Oooh!! Oooh!!" while you, the lecture, have to resist the impulse to look under her seat for a freshly laid egg.

Our student on the interview panel asked her to describe herself in three words. Stumped her!

We had another guy caught lying in the interview about his shadowing experiences. Osteopathy in my state is a small world. The candidate said that he shadowed with Dr X DO at Y Hospital. Turns out my co-interviewer Dr Z, DO, knew Dr X, and also knew that Dr X had moved on from Y Hospital prior to the time that the kid said he shadowed. When Dr Z pointed this out, you could see the candidate physically try to physically disappear into the chair.

The wise @gyngyn has some amazing interview stories...like the parent who physically pushed his kid into the interview room, and I think another one who tried to sit in on the interview! Then there was one who showed up in an ice skater's outfit. No screenplay writer could make this up.
 
Lannister said:
Your entire application is reviewed again after the interview. So people who are unanimously rejected may have said something terrible during the interview (it happens way more often than you'd expect), but more often it's because they have a terrible GPA and/or MCAT, or weak extracurriculars, and their interview just wasn't enough to make up for that.
Click to expand...

I realize this varies by school, but what would you consider a bad GPA/MCAT that would stimulate conversation at your school? 3.5, 508, subscore under 125?
I’m just unsure why a school would invite an applicant to interview if his/her academic capability was in question.
 
Goro said:
Mine is actually the 4.0 Miss Perfect Hyperacheiver I mentioned above. One could almost imagine having her as a student....ask a question and she'd be the witht he arm int he air, going "Oooh!! Oooh!! Oooh!!" while you, the lecture, have to resist the impulse to look under her seat for a freshly laid egg.

Our student on the interview panel asked her to describe herself in three words. Stumped her!

We had another guy caught lying in the interview about his shadowing experiences. Osteopathy in my state is a small world. The candidate said that he shadowed with Dr X DO at Y Hospital. Turns out my co-interviewer Dr Z, DO, knew Dr X, and also knew that Dr X had moved on from Y Hospital prior to the time that the kid said he shadowed. When Dr Z pointed this out, you could see the candidate physically try to physically disappear into the chair.

The wise @gyngyn has some amazing interview stories...like the parent who physically pushed his kid into the interview room, and I think another one who tried to sit in on the interview! Then there was one who showed up in an ice skater's outfit. No screenplay writer could make this up.
Click to expand...
I was going to ask you what the most inappropriate clothing you ever saw an interviewee wear was but I guess the ice skater's outfit might be it. Or maybe you have something better? Crop top and mini skirt? Tracksuit? Drug rug?
 
Goro said:
We had another guy caught lying in the interview about his shadowing experiences. Osteopathy in my state is a small world. The candidate said that he shadowed with Dr X DO at Y Hospital. Turns out my co-interviewer Dr Z, DO, knew Dr X, and also knew that Dr X had moved on from Y Hospital prior to the time that the kid said he shadowed. When Dr Z pointed this out, you could see the candidate physically try to physically disappear into the chair.
Click to expand...
Has behavior ever been so egregious that it warranted alerting AMCAS? I don't know if blatantly lying about an activity would, but just wondering.

edit: spelling
 
SullansAndMarians said:
I was going to ask you what the most inappropriate clothing you ever saw an interviewee wear was but I guess the ice skater's outfit might be it. Or maybe you have something better? Crop top and mini skirt? Tracksuit? Drug rug?
Click to expand...
Maybe it's a CA thing, but I've never, ever seen anything out of the ordinary concerning clothing the way gyngyn has. At my school, we typically see the funeral train of black outfits.

mydogmolly said:
Has behavior ever been so egregious that it warranted alerting AMCAS? I don't know if blatantly lying about an activity would, but just wondering.
Click to expand...
I'll have to punt that to @gyngyn, @Med Ed, @HomeSkool or @LizzyM for AMCAS stuff.

Only once has it ever been discussed about notifying AACOMAS about something blatantly dishonest. Nope, I can't share.
 
calivianya said:
Why even interview the latter group - low GPA/MCAT or weak extracurriculars? What's the point of getting their hopes up?

Just wondering. I'm pretty sure this was what got my my first post-interview rejection - I had no research and the school is locally known for doing a lot of research. 9 out of 10 of my interviews went very well (got a couple of "Wow!" reactions from interviewers when talking about my experience), one was horrible... but I don't think it would have been enough to kill the other nine good interviews. It still bothers me because that school was my first choice, and first rejection.
Click to expand...

Catahecassa said:
I realize this varies by school, but what would you consider a bad GPA/MCAT that would stimulate conversation at your school? 3.5, 508, subscore under 125?
I’m just unsure why a school would invite an applicant to interview if his/her academic capability was in question.
Click to expand...

I'm not involved in anything that happens before the interview, so I'm not the best person to answer why those people get interviews.
I'd say 3.5/508 is probably the point at which we start questioning their academic ability. I've only seen a few truly bad GPAs and MCATs (less than 3.0 or 500) on Diversity Days, and those students usually get rejected.
 
Lannister said:
I'm not involved in anything that happens before the interview, so I'm not the best person to answer why those people get interviews.
I'd say 3.5/508 is probably the point at which we start questioning their academic ability. I've only seen a few truly bad GPAs and MCATs (less than 3.0 or 500) on Diversity Days, and those students usually get rejected.
Click to expand...
Does your school reward reinvention?
 
Microbug said:
I think we need a unicorn applicant thread
Click to expand...
Done. ~*~*~*~*OFFICIAL NUTCASE APPLICANTS THREAD*~*~*~*~

Goro said:
Firs off, it's not a zero sum game. But with only a limited number of seats and a surplus of candidates, schools can and select out even strong candidates. Not everybody can be medal winners in the Olympics.
Click to expand...
This is something that we all need to remember. Getting multiple rejections is not, in and of itself, a sign that you're a poor applicant. All med schools value certain qualities (academic prowess, well-roundedness, maturity, etc.), but they also differ on other details. Two life lessons for all of us: 1) Reasonable adults can disagree; and 2) Just because someone does life different from you, it doesn't mean they're defective. That even goes for adcoms.

Goro said:
An example is addressing a faculty member by their first name.
Click to expand...
It is beyond me how anyone could think this is appropriate. There are only two appropriate ways to address your interviewer: "Doctor" and "Sir/Ma'am".

Goro said:
BTW, the interview lasts all day.
Click to expand...
And if you shadow at a school to which you're applying (like if you're UG at my university and then apply to our med school), that's part of your interview, too. And if you rotate with us as a med student, the whole month is part of your residency interview. Used well, it can give you a leg up on other equally-qualified applicants whom we only meet once. But you can also crater your chances by handling things poorly.

Goro said:
Do NOT be arrogant. People who think that they're God's gift to Medicine do not go into Medicine.
Click to expand...
Correct. They go into Surgery. (Ha! I kid my surgical colleagues.)

Goro said:
We had another guy caught lying in the interview about his shadowing experiences. Osteopathy in my state is a small world. The candidate said that he shadowed with Dr X DO at Y Hospital. Turns out my co-interviewer Dr Z, DO, knew Dr X, and also knew that Dr X had moved on from Y Hospital prior to the time that the kid said he shadowed. When Dr Z pointed this out, you could see the candidate physically try to physically disappear into the chair.
Click to expand...
Ummm...DAMN. Did the interview go any further, or did they just dismiss the candidate then and there? (I really hope they kept going just to twist the knife. Dishonesty should be punished.)

Goro said:
The wise @gyngyn has some amazing interview stories...like the parent who physically pushed his kid into the interview room, and I think another one who tried to sit in on the interview! Then there was one who showed up in an ice skater's outfit. No screenplay writer could make this up.
Click to expand...
WOW. I'm just gonna come out and say it: apart from stuff that's actually illegal, the most immoral thing you can do to your kid is force him/her into a career or marriage that s/he doesn't want. One screws up their happiness at work, the other their happiness at home, and both have lifelong -- and potentially multi-generational -- consequences.

Goro said:
I'll have to punt that to @gyngyn, @Med Ed, @HomeSkool or @LizzyM for AMCAS stuff.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, I can't comment on this, as I'm too new at my institution to be that far into the inner workings of our admissions committee. Give it time, though.
 
Last edited:
calivianya said:
Why even interview the latter group - low GPA/MCAT or weak extracurriculars? What's the point of getting their hopes up?

Just wondering. I'm pretty sure this was what got my my first post-interview rejection - I had no research and the school is locally known for doing a lot of research. 9 out of 10 of my interviews went very well (got a couple of "Wow!" reactions from interviewers when talking about my experience), one was horrible... but I don't think it would have been enough to kill the other nine good interviews. It still bothers me because that school was my first choice, and first rejection.
Click to expand...

Not saying that lacking research wasn't an issue, but the school I think you're referencing averages all 10 of those interviews...so it is possible that the one station did you in :/
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

plopplop123
Background check disclosure adcom
Replies
18
Views
6K
plopplop123
plopplop123
B
Question about Sending Updates to ADCOM
Replies
6
Views
1K
notEinstein
N
saltykiosk
to ADCOMS: How common are 520+, low gpa <3.5 with true reinvention applicants?
Replies
10
Views
1K
LizzyM
LizzyM
T
App Review by someone with adcom experience
Replies
0
Views
551
terramar
T
BlatantPlatitude
Is it over?
Replies
18
Views
3K
wysdoc
wysdoc
Top