If I decide I want to join the military to become a doctor could they help me pay for college? How long would I be required to serve?
The mechanisms by which the military might pay for college (undergrad) tend to be unhelpful or even counterproductive for doctor wannabes.If I decide I want to join the military to become a doctor could they help me pay for college? How long would I be required to serve?
Well ... yeah, but ... I think we're supposed to be nurturing and encouraging, or something.If he does what 98% of people do, he will stop being premed by halfway thru soph year.
Well ... yeah, but ... I think we're supposed to be nurturing and encouraging, or something.
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This is a terrible idea for all the reasons I mentioned in my post above.I'm interested in something similar to what OP posted. What are the chance of me getting an educational delay after undergrad? For example; I can do undergrad at local university and ROTC for all four years (w/ contract between Soph-Jr yrs). Then I'd apply to USUHS (first choice). If I get in to USUHS, can I get an educational delay? If not, what would I do in between?
I don't mind the payback years because I plan on serving for a long time anyway in the long-run.
I cry a little every night knowing my civilian counterparts are earning $100,000 or more a year for doing the same thing I'm doing. It's a tad demoralizing.
I cry a little every night knowing my civilian counterparts are earning $100,000 or more a year for doing the same thing I'm doing. It's a tad demoralizing.
Ditto this!
My K-1 this past year was around $500K more than my last W-2 in the military (including tax free BAH/BAS). Granted, I am a surgical sub-specialist but even as a primary care doc your pay is like to be near $100K/yr more as a civilian.
Take out loans and stay away unless you really want to be a career military physician.
my peasant mind and humble background cannot even comprehend that amount of money Dr. Chonal. Good to hear you are on greener pastures! Much much greener...
I was under the impression primary care pay in the military is reasonably competitive?
average ~$200k/year for PCP according to Medscape Physician Compensations Report 2015
~$150,000/year gross accounting for the tax advantage of BAH (San Antonio locale) & BAS for military PCP in family medicine, fresh out of residency (O-3 w/ 3 years TIS), board certified, VSP, ASP, ISP. Single.
And then after HPSP obligation is done.
~$180,000/year gross as O-4 w/ 7 years TIS without MSP (+ ~$25,000 (??) w/ MSP). Married w/ wife and 2 children.
But to hit average PCP pay and still having to deal with the military stuff...
The prior numbers are a bit off. O3 with 5 tis is about 130k gross. O4 with 6 bumps up to 147k. Another problem I wish I knew before signing is that a huge chunk of our income is our lump sum special pays. Many financial institutions will exclude these because they get treated like bonuses. It can take a lot of work and documentation to prove otherwise and even then doesn't always work.
My exact position is being advertised for a civilian for 310k per year and even with that nobody wants it as its gone vacant for about 5 years for various reasons. Imagine making less than half that amount with the additional workload from the mandatory military stuff and you'll understand why so many say that hpsp isn't worth it. Oh yeah, plus the restrictions on moonlighting and needing permission from command to even do it.
Again, I don't think people really understand compound interest all that well, which is both why so many students keep signing up for these loans and why so many military doctors keep thinking they're being screwed.
Paying your way through an average private school these days costs about 300K with minimal living expenses, but that's not what you pay. The loans compound to about 500K at the end of medical school and a 3 year residency, but that's not what you pay either. They keep compounding throughout your payback, so if you pay the whole thing off in 10 years what you pay is 750K, But that's not what you have to earn. You pay the money back with after tax dollars, so you need to earn 1.5 times as much, or about 1.1 million. Add on the military tax advantage, the stipend during medical school, and the extra pay during residency and the civilian physician needs to make 1.3 million a year extra during the 4 years of HPSP payback just to break even. The extra 150K you could be making as a civilian for your exact position doesn't even come close to that.
Is it possible to make 320K/year more in the military than as a civilian? For the highest paid surgical subspecialists, yes. For 95% of physicians no. And again, that's just to break even. Getting screwed by the HPSP scholarship means that you're making way more than an extra 320K more than the military physician, which means a salary north of 600K. Those are pretty rare, even in medicine.
Again, I don't think people really understand compound interest all that well, which is both why so many students keep signing up for these loans and why so many military doctors keep thinking they're being screwed.
Paying your way through an average private school these days costs about 300K with minimal living expenses, but that's not what you pay. The loans compound to about 500K at the end of medical school and a 3 year residency, but that's not what you pay either. They keep compounding throughout your payback, so if you pay the whole thing off in 10 years what you pay is 750K, But that's not what you have to earn. You pay the money back with after tax dollars, so you need to earn 1.5 times as much, or about 1.1 million. Add on the military tax advantage, the stipend during medical school, and the extra pay during residency and the civilian physician needs to make 1.3 million a year extra during the 4 years of HPSP payback just to break even. The extra 150K you could be making as a civilian for your exact position doesn't even come close to that.
Is it possible to make 320K/year more in the military than as a civilian? For the highest paid surgical subspecialists, yes. For 95% of physicians no. And again, that's just to break even. Getting screwed by the HPSP scholarship means that you're making way more than an extra 320K more than the military physician, which means a salary north of 600K. Those are pretty rare, even in medicine.
Money is not the reason to eschew HPSP, it's the stuff the military can do to you (that most pre-meds have no clue about) after you take the money that should be the reason to evaluate HPSP so critically. Deployments, loss of geographic control for your family, chance you won't match your desired specialty, residency quality, GMO tours that surreptitiously extend your military commitment, skill atrophy, the "unique" aspects of military culture and authority, etc. These are the things that people need to carefully consider before signing up. The only real question people need to consider when deciding on HPSP is whether the money is worth the loss of autonomy. And the answer to that question is highly variable as evidenced by the varying opinions on this board.
That math might be off. Assuming a disbursement of $75K/year annually over four years with an interest of 6.8%, you'd owe $431K by the end of medical school and a three year residency.Paying your way through an average private school these days costs about 300K with minimal living expenses, but that's not what you pay. The loans compound to about 500K at the end of medical school and a 3 year residency
Again, I don't think people really understand compound interest all that well, which is both why so many students keep signing up for these loans and why so many military doctors keep thinking they're being screwed.
Paying your way through an average private school these days costs about 300K with minimal living expenses, but that's not what you pay. The loans compound to about 500K at the end of medical school and a 3 year residency, but that's not what you pay either. They keep compounding throughout your payback, so if you pay the whole thing off in 10 years what you pay is 750K, But that's not what you have to earn. You pay the money back with after tax dollars, so you need to earn 1.5 times as much, or about 1.1 million. Add on the military tax advantage, the stipend during medical school, and the extra pay during residency and the civilian physician needs to make 1.3 million a year extra during the 4 years of HPSP payback just to break even. The extra 150K you could be making as a civilian for your exact position doesn't even come close to that.
Is it possible to make 320K/year more in the military than as a civilian? For the highest paid surgical subspecialists, yes. For 95% of physicians no. And again, that's just to break even. Getting screwed by the HPSP scholarship means that you're making way more than an extra 320K more than the military physician, which means a salary north of 600K. Those are pretty rare, even in medicine.
MANY specialties can make north of 600K (private practice, not hospital employed) if you are willing to push hard in clinic, OR, etc.
I am in a moderate-sized city in the southeast US. The orthopods, urologists, neurosurgeons, GI guys, cardiologists and bariatric surgeons all routinely hit this benchmark. Hell, our spine guy made nearly $3M last year!
My point is the money is there if you're willing to work hard and not live in Manhattan, San Francisco, etc.
That's specialty dependent and what the reimbursement rates are. Not many paying premium cash prices. For me seeing 20 per day in clinic (because of late cancels and no shows) and at 4 days per week, I'll be between 200-250k.
I see 40-45 on average and work 5 days per week, so double that amount you are making by working more.
That's the beauty of capitalism and the downfall of socialistic medicine in the military, you can work as much as you want (within reason) and you are compensated accordingly. I will give you that you (or I) will never make what a spine surgeon makes.
HPSP can be a good financial deal for some, but whenever folks try to make this case, I notice that they tend to hedge things in the favor of their arguments.
You can easily knock off $20-30K from your debt during residency without much effort. If you're aggressive about moonlighting, you can do a LOT more than that. Earning an extra $75K with one weekend moonlighting gig through residency is not too much of a challenge for many.
- The applicant does not seek out post-residency work that has a loan repayment scheme
- The applicant does not take PSLF that wipes out their debt 10 years later (I definitely would make this assumption, as I'm not confident it'll be around for long)
If you care about your debt, you don't watch it accumulate during residency.
I'm curious on the specifics of how he's coming up with his "total financial benefits" for the numbers he's running, but I agree with his overall assessment, which is:Not necessarily. If you don't buy Perrotfish's assessment, check out Jim's:
http://whitecoatinvestor.com/personal-finance/should-i-join-the-military-to-pay-for-medical-school/
I don't know anything about the 75% or where that comes from, but I do know that HPSP is and will depend on a bunch of variables that each applicant needs to consider before saying it's a good financial deal or a bad one. Arguments about whether it's a good investment or a bad investment is so user-dependent as to make any generalizations to be unhelpful. That's why I object to assertions that HPSP is a "great deal." Whole bunch of assumptions need to be made for that to be anywhere close to true.There are many reasons not to take the HPSP scholarship that I and others have chronicled ad infinitum on this forum. But in the present reality, for 75% or so of medical students, the financial situation of a physician who takes HPSP and repays his initial commitment is not one of those reasons.
There's also an element of bias in these discussions that is very hard to get around. Folks who argue strongest for what a great deal HPSP is are folks who have signed up for it and folks who argue strongest against what a great deal HPSP is are folks who have considered it and rejected it. And both parties have a very vested interest in believing they were right (sweet lemons vs. sour grapes).