!@#% Around and Found Out

[WisNeuro]

The suggestion is that the poster is engaging in virtue signaling and has not come to their view authentically.

It was more that the poster was not, in fact, listing biases, but rather viewpoints. It was a definitional argument, not 'to the person.'

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[Fan_of_Meehl]

Pot meet kettle. I fail to see how that last dozen posts were not ad hominem attacks on a poster's view. I fail to see how the alternative views presented here are not representative of a generalized, cooker cutter contrarianism. It must be nice to view oneself as above it all or representing the more moderated position.

ad hominem:
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

Attacks on a poster's 'view' are not ad hominems. If you're going to engage in intellectual or academic discourse, you have to be able to separate your ideas from your self.

People 'attacking' or testing or debating your ideas is the entire point of a real discussion, especially within the context of claims made within a presumably scientific field of inquiry like psychology. It is impossible to even have a meaningful discussion without 'attacking a poster's view.'

This is the very root of the problem. Some people cannot handle vigorous (or even meaningful) attacks on their intellectual positions or ideas without succumbing to the temptation to ignore the valid critique (of the idea) and respond with an attack (either direct or indirect) upon the character, morals, or 'worth' of the person.

 

[SomeGreatNotion]

It was more that the poster was not, in fact, listing biases, but rather viewpoints. It was a definitional argument, not 'to the person.'

According to who?

 

[WisNeuro]

According to who?

According to the words that were used.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

The suggestion is that the poster is engaging in virtue signaling and has not come to their view authentically.

Fair enough. Use of that term went beyond the facts and did involve a degree of interpretation but let's be real--we all 'virtue signal' from time to time and in varying degrees depending on the context and the audience. Other words for it would be 'being polite,' or engaging in public speech influenced by the 'social desirability' (or lack thereof) of the expressed content.

The response of what constituted a 'personal bias' struck me as overly generic, full of slogans and generalities and not really addressing the specific 'error' that we're presumed to acknowledge as a 'bias.' Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. Hard to tell if all that are being 'shared' are generalities. And--if you reread my post carefully--you'll find that my 'attack' was directed against the content that was shared, not the person. Again, in a discussion it's fair game to 'attack' ideas or proposed hypotheses or claims.

I think that this is a genuine point of disagreement between the two camps.

 

[Pragma]

It would be nice to have an argument where I could always fall back on “if you don’t agree with me 100%, the problem is you” and on the further extreme, start insinuating or explicitly throwing out negative labels towards the other person. That is why these conversations don’t have legs for the long haul.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

It would be nice to have an argument where I could always fall back on “if you don’t agree with me 100%, the problem is you” and on the further extreme, start insinuating or explicitly throwing out negative labels towards the other person. That is why these conversations don’t have legs for the long haul.

What is really interesting is the effect that this is apparently having on professional psychology and discourse between psychologists. 'Attacks' on a person's 'view' (ideas) are now considered (by some) to be 'out-of-bounds' or 'offensive' or a 'personal attack' (but only if committed by one side, not the other). Such a worldview leads us back into a new 'Dark Age' where there are certain sets of ideas that simply can't be 'attacked' or subjected to criticism or skepticism. It results in the empirical literature on the topic being chock full of holes and shoddy arguments because it has been insulated from serious scrutiny.

 

[WisNeuro]

It would be nice to have an argument where I could always fall back on “if you don’t agree with me 100%, the problem is you” and on the further extreme, start insinuating or explicitly throwing out negative labels towards the other person. That is why these conversations don’t have legs for the long haul.

Just respond to any and all criticisms of your argument with "you're just being defensive" instead of addressing the critique. Particularly when you are shown actual data that disconfirms your assertion. That seems to be the way to go.

 

[Pragma]

Just respond to any and all criticisms of your argument with "you're just being defensive" instead of addressing the critique. Particularly when you are shown actual data that disconfirms your assertion. That seems to be the way to go.

Not saying I didn’t see other ad hominems flying around in the thread either, but over about 2 decades on this topic they come very reliably from one side in particular.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

It was more that the poster was not, in fact, listing biases, but rather viewpoints. It was a definitional argument, not 'to the person.'

It also struck me as a form of 'begging the question'

'We all have biases.'

'Okay, what are some of yours (and why do you consider them 'biases?')

'...{among other claims} systemic oppression is alive and well...'

The claim that 'systemic oppression is alive and well' is a whole can of worms that--depending on what you mean by the term--would be open to debate. Saying that statement/conclusion doesn't tell me anything about the specific experiences you had and data you observed and interpreted that led you to believe that conclusion.

Begging the question is a logical fallacy in which an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion. Arguments that beg the question work to obscure the actual points in controversy and can be looked at as a form of circular reasoning.

 

[WisNeuro]

Not saying I didn’t see other ad hominems flying around in the thread either, but over about 2 decades on this topic they come very reliably from one side in particular.

You mean the "your argument is wrong because you are a white man" one? Even when it's leveled at Sanman, hilariously?

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

You mean the "your argument is wrong because you are a white man" one? Even when it's leveled at Sanman, hilariously?

Yeah...I was kinda hoping that someone would fess up to that particular assumption/bias.

'Anyone who is critical of DEI or its implementation must be a white man.'

 

[Pragma]

You mean the "your argument is wrong because you are a white man" one? Even when it's leveled at Sanman, hilariously?

Well that’s a good example, but there were ad hominem statements in the other direction as well (albeit at a lower frequency).

 

[alice_in_neuro_wonderland]

The suggestion is that the poster is engaging in virtue signaling and has not come to their view authentically.

Thank you 😅 I’m glad someone else on here sees it.

 

[PsyDWannabe]

Pot meet kettle. I fail to see how that last dozen posts were not ad hominem attacks on a poster's view. I fail to see how the alternative views presented here are not representative of a generalized, cooker cutter contrarianism. It must be nice to view oneself as above it all or representing the more moderated position.

Whew! You saved me some words, thank you.

#adhominem has GOT to be the word of the year on this forum, it just has to 😂. Whenever a person gets called out, they can just scream AD HOMINEM and automatically it absolves them of having to provide a relevant response.

Just like Michael Scott declaring bankruptcy on the office, thinking that simply by literally verbally declaring bankruptcy, he wouldn’t have to officially file nor make good on his debt lol!

The beautiful irony here is that the same deflective and willfully ignorant tactics being used on here are the exact ones used when the issue is broached in real life. What was that someone said about ‘groupthink’ again? Or are the ad hominem and groupthink labels only relegated to those advocating for a cause you don’t agree with?

 

[alice_in_neuro_wonderland]

I think I’ve realized why there seem to be more (very vocal and persistent) people on this thread who are against DEI compared to us minority (haha) who are in favor of it. I think they’re upset because out in the real world, they’re losing, and this is their refuge for outdated ideas to be propagated and supported. I feel as though I’ve quite literally stumbled into a hornet’s nest of bitterness and anger at the fact that the world is moving forward, and people are feeling left behind. Woooooo what a trip.

*cue defensive responses, projection, ‘ad hominem’ attacks, etc etc* 😂

 

[alice_in_neuro_wonderland]

Whew! You saved me some words, thank you.

#adhominem has GOT to be the word of the year on this forum, it just has to 😂. Whenever a person gets called out, they can just scream AD HOMINEM and automatically it absolves them of having to provide a relevant response.

Just like Michael Scott declaring bankruptcy on the office, thinking that simply by literally verbally declaring bankruptcy, he wouldn’t have to officially file nor make good on his debt lol!

The beautiful irony here is that the same deflective and willfully ignorant tactics being used on here are the exact ones used when the issue is broached in real life. What was that someone said about ‘groupthink’ again? Or are the ad hominem and groupthink labels only relegated to those advocating for a cause you don’t agree with?

I’m dead 😂🤣

 

[PsyDWannabe]

I’m dead 😂🤣

Laugh all you want, I’m putting it on a T-shirt! It’s the holiday season, perfect stocking stuffer. Got to strike while the iron is hot *shrugs* #AdHominem

 

[WisNeuro]

I think I’ve realized why there seem to be more (very vocal and persistent) people on this thread who are against DEI compared to us minority (haha) who are in favor of it. I think they’re upset because out in the real world, they’re losing, and this is their refuge for outdated ideas to be propagated and supported. I feel as though I’ve quite literally stumbled into a hornet’s nest of bitterness and anger at the fact that the world is moving forward, and people are feeling left behind. Woooooo what a trip.

*cue defensive responses, projection, ‘ad hominem’ attacks, etc etc* 😂

Ah, and a literal textbook definition of ad hominem. At least you are consistent in your lack of any substantive argument.

 

[alice_in_neuro_wonderland]

Laugh all you want, I’m putting it on a T-shirt! It’s the holiday season, perfect stocking stuffer. Got to strike while the iron is hot *shrugs* #AdHominem

I’ll take five, please. Been meaning to start on my holiday shopping. 🎁 ✨

 

[alice_in_neuro_wonderland]

Ah, and a literal textbook definition of ad hominem. At least you are consistent in your lack of any substantive argument.

Oh that one sure was 😉 I’m not denying it one bit.

 

[Pragma]

people on this thread who are against DEI

What a sad, inaccurate characterization.

 

[WisNeuro]

What a sad, inaccurate characterization.

What's more sad is that this is the exact type of behavior that hinders the end goal of DEI initiatives. WHo knows how much faster a realistic goal of equity could have been achieved with actual discussion and intelligent policy decisions.

 

[PsyDWannabe]

I think I’ve realized why there seem to be more (very vocal and persistent) people on this thread who are against DEI compared to us minority (haha) who are in favor of it. I think they’re upset because out in the real world, they’re losing, and this is their refuge for outdated ideas to be propagated and supported. I feel as though I’ve quite literally stumbled into a hornet’s nest of bitterness and anger at the fact that the world is moving forward, and people are feeling left behind. Woooooo what a trip.

*cue defensive responses, projection, ‘ad hominem’ attacks, etc etc* 😂

Oh I peeped this way way way back, at this point I’m very familiar with all the tricks. I think we all know by now that we’re not dealing with anyone who is willing to be talked out of their stance, all we are doing is listing points for consideration for whomever may be interested in posterity. That’s why I refuse to shut up about it.

My favorite part of this go-round was someone calling me “frustrated“ and “overwhelmed“, only to spew the very same frustration and overwhelm in my direction because I called them out 😂😂😂 You can’t make this up. The speed with which they went from benevolent all-knowing therapist projecting their emotions onto me, to exhibiting the exact same frustration and overwhelm they just had accused me of one breath ago was record-breaking.

But the funniest part is that they thought discrediting me by labeling me with random negative emotions was going to stop anything lmao. As the young ones say, “you thought”. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad.

 

[Pragma]

Oh I peeped this way way way back, at this point I’m very familiar with all the tricks. I think we all know by now that we’re not dealing with anyone who is willing to be talked out of their stance, all we are doing is listing points for consideration for whomever may be interested in posterity. That’s why I refuse to shut up about it.

My favorite part of this go-round was someone calling me “frustrated“ and “overwhelmed“, only to spew the very same frustration and overwhelm in my direction because I called them out 😂😂😂 You can’t make this up. The speed with which they went from benevolent all-knowing therapist projecting their emotions onto me, to exhibiting the exact same frustration and overwhelm they just had accused me of one breath ago was record-breaking.

But the funniest part is that they thought discrediting me by labeling me with random negative emotions was going to stop anything lmao. As the young ones say, “you thought”. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad.

Well that’s a good example, but there were ad hominem statements in the other direction as well (albeit at a lower frequency).

I had that one in mind earlier.

 

[alice_in_neuro_wonderland]

Oh I peeped this way way way back, at this point I’m very familiar with all the tricks. I think we all know by now that we’re not dealing with anyone who is willing to be talked out of their stance, all we are doing is listing points for consideration for whomever may be interested in posterity. That’s why I refuse to shut up about it.

My favorite part of this go-round was someone calling me “frustrated“ and “overwhelmed“, only to spew the very same frustration and overwhelm in my direction because I called them out 😂😂😂 You can’t make this up. The speed with which they went from benevolent all-knowing therapist projecting their emotions onto me, to exhibiting the exact same frustration and overwhelm they just had accused me of one breath ago was record-breaking.

But the funniest part is that they thought discrediting me by labeling me with random negative emotions was going to stop anything lmao. As the young ones say, “you thought”. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad.

#support✊ Also, love your razor sharp analysis of the process, and couldn’t agree more. Also, “you thought” has entered the chat ahaha 😂🤣🤣 Love.

 

[PsyDWannabe]

#support✊ Also, love your razor sharp analysis of the process, and couldn’t agree more. Also, “you thought” has entered the chat ahaha 😂🤣🤣 Love.

Back in the early pages (clearly I’ve been here a while 😂) a couple of folks felt my posts were causing them to feel like they were not intellectual enough to engage in conversation with me. Mind you, not a single phoneme to that effect was stated by me. They read my posts and apparently automatically felt their intellect being under attack. Yikes! I don’t even want to attempt to label what complex that is. My point is, the projections are nothing new and I’ve gotten very comfortable with them. But there’s always a humorous undercurrent, because I was like wait a second, so of all the times you expect me to abandon intellectual conversation, it’s when discussing such a profound issue??


The jokes write themselves lol!

 

[alice_in_neuro_wonderland]

Oh I peeped this way way way back, at this point I’m very familiar with all the tricks. I think we all know by now that we’re not dealing with anyone who is willing to be talked out of their stance, all we are doing is listing points for consideration for whomever may be interested in posterity. That’s why I refuse to shut up about it.

My favorite part of this go-round was someone calling me “frustrated“ and “overwhelmed“, only to spew the very same frustration and overwhelm in my direction because I called them out 😂😂😂 You can’t make this up. The speed with which they went from benevolent all-knowing therapist projecting their emotions onto me, to exhibiting the exact same frustration and overwhelm they just had accused me of one breath ago was record-breaking.

But the funniest part is that they thought discrediting me by labeling me with random negative emotions was going to stop anything lmao. As the young ones say, “you thought”. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad.

I also just want to wholeheartedly agree with this here and add something….I went into this thread sort of expecting for it to go the way it went, but still trying hard to present my view in a way that would facilitate some consideration rather than immediate seemingly-blind defense. I tried. I didn’t even expect to convince anyone of anything. I just hoped I could present some food for thought in as non-threatening of a way as possible. But evidently, from the responses I received, unsuccessfully so. 😬

 

[WisNeuro]

I also just want to wholeheartedly agree with this here and add something….I went into this thread sort of expecting for it to go the way it went, but still trying hard to present my view in a way that would facilitate some consideration rather than immediate seemingly-blind defense. I tried. I didn’t even expect to convince anyone of anything. I just hoped I could present some food for thought in as non-threatening of a way as possible. But evidently, from the responses I received, unsuccessfully so. 😬

Some here, have tried to engage in good faith discussion with you, and would still do so. This seems somewhat disingenuous as you never responded to actual questions of your assertions and instead resorted to name calling when questioned on factual, verifiable, information.

 

[alice_in_neuro_wonderland]

Some here, have tried to engage in good faith discussion with you, and would still do so. This seems somewhat disingenuous as you never responded to actual questions of your assertions and instead resorted to name calling when questioned on factual, verifiable, information.

Whoa when did I ever name call anyone? Receipts please, sir

 

[WisNeuro]

Whoa when did I ever name call anyone?

The many instances of textbook ad hominem responses.

 

[alice_in_neuro_wonderland]

The many instances of textbook ad hominem responses.

Please enlighten me on my many instances. I’d genuinely like to know.

Side note, can we put #textbook on a shirt too? 😂😂 #2 word of the year for sure

 

[WisNeuro]

Please enlighten me on my many instances. I’d genuinely like to know.

Side note, can we put #textbook on a shirt too? 😂😂 #2 word of the year for sure

Calling someone's argument invalid because DEI makes then uncomfortable and that their views are due to bias without any backup to the assertion to come back at a point are a few recent. You haven't resorted to it as frequently or as basely as others, to be fair.

 

[PsyDWannabe]

I also just want to wholeheartedly agree with this here and add something….I went into this thread sort of expecting for it to go the way it went, but still trying hard to present my view in a way that would facilitate some consideration rather than immediate seemingly-blind defense. I tried. I didn’t even expect to convince anyone of anything. I just hoped I could present some food for thought in as non-threatening of a way as possible. But evidently, from the responses I received, unsuccessfully so. 😬

You and I have very different (almost opposite) approaches towards the same goal, and I think what recent conversations have shown is that the approach is irrelevant so anyone trying to make it about the approach is gaslighting and manipulating their way out of whatever it is they’re trying to avoid. Fortunately, I didn’t just start having these conversations yesterday, and the above has played out so often in the real world that I can see it coming in my sleep.

They chastised me for being too zealous and then you came in with a more tempered approach. Yet here we are

p.s. I highly and strongly admire your approach!!!!!!

 

[PsyDWannabe]

Please enlighten me on my many instances. I’d genuinely like to know.

Side note, can we put #textbook on a shirt too? 😂😂 #2 word of the year for sure

I was already going to add #projection, for the sake of fairness!! We are running out of T-shirt real estate!

 

[Sanman]

As this conversation is devolving I will repeat this thought here. One bias I am seeing a lot of is assuming negative intent of anyone who disagrees with you. That does not need to be the case. Like it or not, people will have different opinions. One of the wonderful things about SDN is that anonymity allows one to be honest with those opinions.

 

[WisNeuro]

As this conversation is devolving I will repeat this thought here. One bias I am seeing a lot of is assuming negative intent of anyone who disagrees with you. That does not need to be the case. Like it or not, people will have different opinions. One of the wonderful things about SDN is that anonymity allows one to be honest with those opinions.

Pssh, you're just saying that because you're white

Also, some of us are not all that anonymous, really. I know more than a handful of people here in real life. When are we doing our SDN conference/bar crawl?

 

[Sanman]

Pssh, you're just saying that because you're white

Also, some of us are not all that anonymous, really. I know more than a handful of people here in real life. When are we doing our SDN conference/bar crawl?

You guys and your elitist hangouts. I hear a bunch you used to get together a few times a year. Some of you even made people interested in hanging out with you interview and pledge servitude for two years. I will have none of it!

 

[SomeGreatNotion]

I’m reading a lot of congratulatory back-patting posts here. Good job distilling the DEI message promoted by myself and others as “white man is bad”. We all have learned so much.

 

[WisNeuro]

I’m reading a lot of congratulatory back-patting posts here. Good job distilling the DEI message promoted by myself and others as “white man is bad”. We all have learned so much.

I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[SomeGreatNotion]

Is this a public forum or have I stumbled into a friend group chat?

 

[PsyDWannabe]

I’m reading a lot of congratulatory back-patting posts here. Good job distilling the DEI message promoted by myself and others as “white man is bad”. We all have learned so much.

That’s been the refrain throughout. Always been that way. It’s embarrassing, but ultimately sad.

And FYI, it’s not embarrassing because we don’t agree, it’s embarrassing because of the continuous yet thinly veiled intentional misstating of points being made just because folks love trying victimhood on for size lol. I have found that in a lot of cases, there is no one more thirsty for extra ‘victim points’ than those who have never really experienced historical systemic oppression. Folks see marginalized individuals persevering through adversity, and delude themselves into believing that being a member of a marginalized group is all about the perks.

 

[Sanman]

That’s been the refrain throughout. Always been that way. It’s embarrassing, but ultimately sad.

And FYI, it’s not embarrassing because we don’t agree, it’s embarrassing because of the continuous yet thinly veiled intentional misstating of points being made just because folks love trying victimhood on for size lol. I have found that in a lot of cases, there is no one more thirsty for extra ‘victim points’ than those who have never really experienced historical systemic oppression. Folks see marginalized individuals persevering through adversity, and delude themselves into believing that being a member of a marginalized group is all about the perks.

Damn and here I thought all of those times I had racist remarks hurled at me, people get into physical altercations with me, cops follow me home, etc I was facing oppression. Please tell me more about how only people with your point of view have been oppressed.

Not for nothing, the only members of a racial minority group still living that were all unilaterally held against their will are Japanese Americans during WWII. A group not included in DEI initiatives.

 

[borne_before]

Okay, your turn. Let’s hear your biases so I can offer my helpful opinions on them. 😉

Prolly not the best way to make a process comment, you're right - I did get frustraited. I am not immune to that emotion - just ask my toddler and wife.

You know, when you're sitting with a patient and you were just together as a team trying to figure something out together. You're in the moment, you're listening to your patient, you're rooting for them, you're not doing much, they're doing it, you're just with them. It feels creative, it feels like discovery. Then something happens, the patient brings up a current event or they get hooked by the past. It's like all the spark of the connection and creativity, left the room and they start repeating/scripting a story - often the same conceptualized story about themselves or others they've brought up many times before.

That's what I felt there - I hope that's a better way to communicate my thinking? I guess what I am saying is that you have your own thoughts about this stuff and I really want to hear them but you're towing a line that makes it hard to discover with you. Is there fear of nonconformity there? Is there fear of repercussions for not toeing the line? You've got a lot to bring to this discussion, but it feels like I'm talking to concept rather than individual.

That's my frustration with this stuff.

 

[PsyDWannabe]

Damn and here I thought all of those times I had racist remarks hurled at me, people get into physical altercations with me, cops follow me home, etc I was facing oppression. Please tell me more about how only people with your point of view have been oppressed.

Not for nothing, the only members of a racial minority group still living that were all unilaterally held against their will are Japanese Americans during WWII. A group not included in DEI initiatives.

I never said you have never faced oppression. I have no idea what exactly you’re responding to. If the shoe didn’t fit you, why did you squeeze your foot into it just to justify an angry response?

 

[Sanman]

I never said you have never faced oppression. I have no idea what exactly you’re responding to. If the shoe didn’t fit you, why did you squeeze your foot into it just to justify an angry response?

You generalized about the group disagreeing with you "trying on victimhood" to get points. I'm not angry. I am pointing out you also have no idea what the people on the other side have experienced. You're making assumptions about their motives.

 

[PsyDWannabe]

You generalized about the group disagreeing with you "trying on victimhood" to get points. I'm not angry. I am pointing out you also have no idea what the people on the other side have experienced. You're making assumptions about their motives.

As opposed to asking each stranger on here for a detailed personal history and then commenting on each one individually? If that was generalizing, then every single poster since the beginning of this thread has been generalizing so I guess that’s already being controlled for. Make sure you tag each person and let them know how you feel, since that’s your preferred approach.

 

[borne_before]

The suggestion is that the poster is engaging in virtue signaling and has not come to their view authentically.

Can we ask them if they feel like they are being attacked ad hominem?

Edit: I was catching up. sorry. They did. I contributed to that. It'll give me something to think about in future interactions.

 

[borne_before]

It would be nice to have an argument where I could always fall back on “if you don’t agree with me 100%, the problem is you” and on the further extreme, start insinuating or explicitly throwing out negative labels towards the other person. That is why these conversations don’t have legs for the long haul.

Why do you think that is? This comment touches a cord.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Why do you think that is? This comment touches a cord.

The same reason someone would pull the pin on a hand grenade if you had a rapier to their throat.