as a rule, which do you think is harder?

[uclacrewdude]

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given programs of relatively equal quality, is it more difficult to match surgery or EM? i ask b/c im on the cusp of picking trauma surg or ER ... ok, so im not on the cusp, since im only an MS1, but ive been daydreaming a lot about it. what do you guys think?

p.s. if you're gonna answer with the caveat that it depends on where you apply for residency, assume cali

 

[ckent]

EM is much more difficult. Surgery has had a decreasing number of applicants every year, a lot of good programs have had difficultly filling the last few years. This trend may partially reverse with the new 80 hr work week rules, but there are a ton of surgery programs out there that still are not currently filling.

 

[Furpal]

It is a popular misconception that surgery is an easy match. Applications are up for the second straight year and from what I understand, they are up significantly. The thing you have to understand is that while the statistics may show that there are a lot of open surgery positions the truth of the matter is that there were around 11 categorical positions at nine institutions that did not match last year. To get a prelim surgery position is far less difficult.

I honestly don't know a whole lot about applying to either one of these positions in california. I do know about surgery in the southeast.

Anyways, good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

[Pilot Doc]

Ckent,

Your assessment of surgery is about two years out of date. The number of unmatched spots peaked around 60 in 2001 and declined to 9 (out of about 1000) last year. The # of matched US applicants nadired in 2002, was up last year, and - by rumor - total US applicants slightly exceed the number of spots this year.

In comparison to ER, the stats last year for matched US seniors / total # matched / total positions are

Surgery 867/1038/1049
ER 859/1073/1114

So surgery had a higher percentage of US grads match and a smaller percentage and smaller absolute number of unmatched spots.

That having been said -- things wil change in 3 year - most likely your specialty choice. Both fields are and, because of their size, will likely remain accessible to most US students.
[Source: NRMP.org]

 

[WatchingWaiting]

I don't think the whole percentage unmatched in a specialty is at all a good way to measure how competitive a specialty is. Perhaps it can give a ballpark figure, but doesn't it totally fail to adjust for self-selection factors?

For example,

Otolaryngology 36 33 34
Radiology-Diagnostic 136 116 133
General Surgery 1,049 867 1,038

Do you really want to argue that General Surgery is as competitive as otolarynology or diagnostic radiology? I know med schools, and probably residency programs as well, guard it like their virginity, but mean USMLE scores for accepted students would probably be a much better indicator, not that there is any actual way to get them.

Originally posted by Pilot Doc
Ckent,

Your assessment of surgery is about two years out of date. The number of unmatched spots peaked around 60 in 2001 and declined to 9 (out of about 1000) last year. The # of matched US applicants nadired in 2002, was up last year, and - by rumor - total US applicants slightly exceed the number of spots this year.

In comparison to ER, the stats last year for matched US seniors / total # matched / total positions are

Surgery 867/1038/1049
ER 859/1073/1114

So surgery had a higher percentage of US grads match and a smaller percentage and smaller absolute number of unmatched spots.

That having been said -- things wil change in 3 year - most likely your specialty choice. Both fields are and, because of their size, will likely remain accessible to most US students.
[Source: NRMP.org]

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

For this year, I'd guess that surgery versus EM would be a close call. However, the number of categorical spots unfilled in surgery in 2003 (11) were less than those in EM (>40). Thbis does not account for the # of US MD versus FMG applicants and people that matched; however, by that # alone one would think surgery was moderately competitive.

2001 was not a good year for surgery (which I think is where people have gotten the notion that surgery was an easy match,) but I think the combined facts of PD's ranking more people and the 80 hour work week may shift the dynamics of the surgery match.

This year, there are ~1,030 categorical (in other words, spots that you want to get so that you are more likely guaranteed completion from the program) spots for which 4,000 people are applying. I don't remember the #, but there are slightly more US MD grads applying (~1,200-1,300) for those spots than there are spots available; in addition, there are a handful of DO's and ~2,400 FMGS going for those spots as well.

In other words, if a US MD grad ranks enough surgery programs (>5), they *should* match if the program competitiveness is within their scope.

Since you are an MS1, the dynamics may change quite a bit between now and when you apply.

For most fields (derm is a big exception), if you work hard and apply to enough programs that are within reach, you'll likely match somewhere.

 

[nuclearrabbit77]

Originally posted by WatchingWaiting
I don't think the whole percentage unmatched in a specialty is at all a good way to measure how competitive a specialty is. Perhaps it can give a ballpark figure, but doesn't it totally fail to adjust for self-selection factors?

For example,

Otolaryngology 36 33 34
Radiology-Diagnostic 136 116 133
General Surgery 1,049 867 1,038

Do you really want to argue that General Surgery is as competitive as otolarynology or diagnostic radiology? I know med schools, and probably residency programs as well, guard it like their virginity, but mean USMLE scores for accepted students would probably be a much better indicator, not that there is any actual way to get them.

this is totally true about self-selection playing a big role in the numbers. i don't like how medical schools cite figures of what percent of their graduating class matches in their top 1,2,3 choices. it's totally misleading and pointless for the reasons previously stated.

 

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

Originally posted by WatchingWaiting
I don't think the whole percentage unmatched in a specialty is at all a good way to measure how competitive a specialty is. Perhaps it can give a ballpark figure, but doesn't it totally fail to adjust for self-selection factors?

For example,

Otolaryngology 36 33 34
Radiology-Diagnostic 136 116 133
General Surgery 1,049 867 1,038

Do you really want to argue that General Surgery is as competitive as otolarynology or diagnostic radiology? I know med schools, and probably residency programs as well, guard it like their virginity, but mean USMLE scores for accepted students would probably be a much better indicator, not that there is any actual way to get them.

The numbers you provided for both otolaryngology and radiology are for combined PGY-1 positions only. Most of these matches are starting in the PGY-2 year and you must match into an intern year. There are close to 1000 radiology spots and a few hundred ENT spots available. That being said, your point is still valid.

 

[uclacrewdude]

Originally posted by Whisker Barrel Cortex
The numbers you provided for both otolaryngology and radiology are for combined PGY-1 positions only. Most of these matches are starting in the PGY-2 year and you must match into an intern year. There are close to 1000 radiology spots and a few hundred ENT spots available. That being said, your point is still valid.

which specialties require you to match a transitional year instead of just dumping you into your specific dept right away?

 

[coldsteel]

To the OP. I wouldn't worry about this stuff as a first year. Right now you should just work hard and try to master the material presented in your coursework. If you are truly interested in what you are doing (99% of us are) and you work hard you will most likely be able to match into any specialty you desire.
In terms of what you are interested in let me add this. I had quite a bit of exposure to clinical medicine before starting medical school, and there were several things I thought I would enjoy doing before starting 3rd year, but I've found that it is simply impossible to truly know what you like until you've done the work day in and day out. Several of my classmates have had the same experience.
As an example, I was almost 100% sure that I would become and ER physician until I started 3rd year. If you would have asked me 1 year ago, I would have carried on ad nauseum about how great ER is and that there is no other field that can even come close to comparing. Now it has completely dropped off my list.
If I was a first year again I would study more, have more fun, and worry less. Everything falls into place.

 

[uclacrewdude]

thanks guys, your info has been really helpful and thankfully bias free. i really appreciate it