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Discussion in 'Pharmacy' started by gwarm01, Sep 7, 2016.

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  1. owlegrad

    owlegrad Uncontrollable Sarcasm Machine Staff Member SDN Administrator 7+ Year Member

    I think you need to learn what "objectively" means. A personal decision to leave pharmacy school is probably the right decision for you to make (and I don't see anyone posting to the contrary) but it hardly qualifies as "objective".
     
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  3. PAtoPharm

    PAtoPharm

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    When I say "objective," I mean that on basically a common-sense basis that any reasonable-minded person would have, leaving pharmacy school/profession is obviously the best decision for anyone to make, especially considering the other healthcare/IT/engineering fields that could be pursued instead.
     
  4. owlegrad

    owlegrad Uncontrollable Sarcasm Machine Staff Member SDN Administrator 7+ Year Member

    In that case, you are "literally" correct.
     
  5. confettiflyer

    confettiflyer Did you just say something? 10+ Year Member

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    I blocked him and ignored, stop quoting him. You're part of the problem.


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
     
  6. confettiflyer

    confettiflyer Did you just say something? 10+ Year Member

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    Stop replying, you're part of the problem.


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
     
  7. PharmD500

    PharmD500 SDN Gold Donor Gold Donor

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    I wish @owlegrad would ban him already. It should have happened months ago.
     
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  8. gwarm01

    gwarm01 7+ Year Member

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    What can I say, I have a sickness that makes me need to know what everyone is saying. But now.. now I am free. If we can just get others to join us and stop quoting him these threads won't be so hard to follow.
     
  9. owlegrad

    owlegrad Uncontrollable Sarcasm Machine Staff Member SDN Administrator 7+ Year Member

    Oh my goodness there's no winning with you people! I STILL get complaints about banning SHC and she was 10x the troll this guy will ever be.

    Besides I legitimately find him funny. What's the harm in a little troll-baiting? The site can get so dull without a few harmless trolls here and there. In truth I really do regret banning shc just because with her around it was never dull. :(

    And of course I do fully support the use of ignore for people who find his inputs distracting, annoying, or otherwise loathsome.
     
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  10. owlegrad

    owlegrad Uncontrollable Sarcasm Machine Staff Member SDN Administrator 7+ Year Member

    No cross posting/dup posting or it is you I will ban! MWHAHAHAHA
     
  11. PharmD500

    PharmD500 SDN Gold Donor Gold Donor

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    You people!:eek:

    :p
     
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  12. PharmD500

    PharmD500 SDN Gold Donor Gold Donor

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    It's not his fault if people don't listen the first time. Lol. ;)
     
    owlegrad likes this.
  13. owlegrad

    owlegrad Uncontrollable Sarcasm Machine Staff Member SDN Administrator 7+ Year Member

    Twist: it was me all along. MHAhaha
     
  14. radio frequency

    radio frequency 2+ Year Member

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    Blocking for good.

    So tired of having to read these never ending strings of arguments with someone who will likely never find satisfaction in anything in life but only more complaints.
     
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  15. PharmD500

    PharmD500 SDN Gold Donor Gold Donor

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    I think I blocked him in the first few months I joined SDN, but then certain conversations weren't making sense. I didn't know what people were responding to. I unblocked him just so I wouldn't be confused.
     
  16. Winged Scapula

    Winged Scapula Cougariffic! Staff Member Lifetime Donor SDN Chief Administrator 10+ Year Member

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    To the user who asked that we require proof of attendance at pharmacy school from a certain user, I'll remind that user that those of you who are not verified pharmacists, could also be accused of misleading users about your identity. You cannot be demanding such proof and subsequent banning of an individual if you are not willing to undergo the same scrutiny.

    If you find another user objectionable, put them on Ignore as others have done. SDN is not going to be asking for enrollment transcripts or other proof of user identity.
     
  17. Dalteparin

    Dalteparin 7+ Year Member

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    Respectfully, I disagree. SHC was actually amusing, and I think (hope?) that once she got out in the real world she'd have been less of a princess. PAtoWhatever contributes nothing to this forum. They hijack every single thread they post in, so much so that even those of us who have them on Ignore (which I do) still have to read their posts to find out what people are talking about. This forum has been very useful to me over the years, but seeing this person's behavior tolerated and even encouraged by someone who should be shutting it down is very disheartening and makes me want to avoid the forum. I agree that we shouldn't ask for proof of enrollment, but expecting members to be respectful of people who are trying to help them and not turn every thread into a discussion about them is more than reasonable. Just my $0.02.


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
     
  18. lord999

    lord999 Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    As observed on another thread and as a previous mod, I know that there is little that can be done, but I agree that like ten years ago, we have a member who is very disruptive. If we can have a general agreement among us that we should not respond, then ignoring won't be a problem. However, there is still major thread derailment even with ignore which is very irritating.

    I agree with @Dalteparin that there is a difference between a troll and someone being intentionally disruptive.
     
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  19. confettiflyer

    confettiflyer Did you just say something? 10+ Year Member

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    lol I forgot you're a mod, the app strips out everything except username. This app is also why I take weeks to view PM's


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
     
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  20. BidingMyTime

    BidingMyTime Lost Shaker Of Salt 10+ Year Member

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    I completely disagree. PAToPharm is currently the most entertaining part of our board, now that Sparda is too busy working and dating to post more often. PA2Pharm is like a soap-opera, and I'm genuinely curious to see how his 3rd go at a professional school works out. I'm still upset that the SHC saga was prematurely cancelled, and I never got to find out if she found her rich sugar daddy dentist or whatever, and how long her marriage lasted before she got kicked out for a newer trophy wife.
     
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  21. Z-Qualizer

    Z-Qualizer 2+ Year Member

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    This.

    I also keep hoping that @PAtoPharm will start his own thread where people can follow his journey(s). I'm really excited to see which field(s) he pursues after PA/AA (again).
     
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  22. PAtoPharm

    PAtoPharm

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    Ha, so you've already come to the conclusion that I'll fail out of AA/PA school, regardless of which type of program I end up matriculating at. I can understand the psychological defense mechanism at play here: if someone with my kind of background had the nerve to quit pharmacy school when they should've simply felt immensely grateful to be in ANY professional school, even if it's pharmacy, then there's no way that the egos here can process the notion of me leaving this dead-end field (find me a message board for physicians, PAs, or NPs where there is an actual demographic group of members who are actively talking about leaving the profession entirely) to pursue something with better prospects than what pharmacy offers. It's almost like there's a collective mentality of "if I'm stuck in what this profession has become, then there's no way that someone like PAtoPharm should have the opportunity to move onto something better."

    I'll ask you this, Z-Qualizer. Other than the fact that I already unsuccessfully attempted two professional programs (despite the fact that I absolutely left the second one on my own terms --because duh), why are you so convinced that I won't be able to pass a general PA program, especially after I made all A's in the basic medical science courses that are taught to both AA and PA students (anatomy, physiology, etc.)?

    At least I'll have a reason to be motivated in PA school. After reading posts from people here who say they worked as interns, had good GPAs, and served as presidents of student orgs and STILL couldn't find jobs as pharmacists, it's a wonder anyone pursues this field anymore.
     
  23. BenJammin

    BenJammin No Apologies 5+ Year Member

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    Anyway, back on topic. Residencies are ruining this profession. It really is the perfect scam. It won't surprise me to see PGY 2 being required for a staff position. Clinical specialists are far and few between due to the lack of quality contribution they bring to the medical team.

    You gotta love it if you're an employer. Convince new grads that their pharmacy education was inadequate and needs to be augmented with two years of residency. Those two years will save the hospital $160,000 per pharmacist and will keep the staff lean. If you have a 5 man rotation like we do that's nearly a 5 million dollar cost reduction over 6 years. It's genius, really.
     
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  24. PharmD500

    PharmD500 SDN Gold Donor Gold Donor

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    Do you think pharmacy schools and residencies should have a Certificate of Need each year? For example, if 3 ID pharmacists are retiring or close to retirement, then there should be 3 ID PGY2 residency spots that year. Same with schools. If there's a need for 40 new pharmacists in the upcoming years in a given area, then the schools should only accept about the number of students needed to fill the need in the area. Thoughts?
     
  25. confettiflyer

    confettiflyer Did you just say something? 10+ Year Member

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    But how does this differ from practically every other profession out there? The offloading of fully paid, on-the-job training and expected in-school training has been dumped by everyone else from nurses (the whole RN/BSN thing) to fashion designers (unpaid internships) to winemaking.

    Opining the loss of on-the-job training, apprenticeships, and in-house advancement is about as useful as writing your senator to bring back 8-track tapes.

    Pharmacy residency as a prerequisite to full inpatient employment is just the manifestation of this "new" reality which really isn't new at all.

    The next thing to drop is actual guaranteed FT employment for new PGY-1's....oh, wait, that's been ongoing.


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  26. confettiflyer

    confettiflyer Did you just say something? 10+ Year Member

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    1) people travel, system breaks
    2) who would enforce? it would be illegal market manipulation (antitrust) if tied to approval/accreditation
    3) define retirement....full stop, drop to part time, drop to 0 FTE but stay on and silently intend to work a random amount between 0-40hrs depending on your travel plans? I've seen all 3. How do you consolidate a 0.5 FTE need? with a 0.5 FTE residency?


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
     
  27. PharmD500

    PharmD500 SDN Gold Donor Gold Donor

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    A Certificate of Need is required for other things, so maybe it won't cause the system to break.

    The state or federal government would enforce.

    No, they won't all require residency. Just the specialties would. You can replace the retired people with regular graduates.
     
  28. steveysmith54

    steveysmith54 Member 10+ Year Member

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    I realize this is a free country and we have freedom of speech, but how about you come back and visit us when you actually graduate from a professional school and get a job. With all due respect, you have nothing to contribute to this pharmacist forum at this time. You're neither a pharmacist, health care professional, or a even a health professional student. There is very little doubt that you can handle professional level courses from an academic point of view, it's your overall decision making in life which gets you in trouble and what caused you to fail out of that AA program. The question still remains is if you have what it takes to get to the finish line in any health professional program. The reality is you still have a giant mountain to climb to even get to the level of an average poster in this forum who earns six figures.
     
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  29. Charcoales

    Charcoales 5+ Year Member

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    Don't ban them, this is a forum, if we really didn't like their posts, their threads would simply fall off the front page tbh.
     
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  30. PAtoPharm

    PAtoPharm

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    I get it; until I've accomplished something concrete, the talk is meaningless. That's why I actually consider starting pharmacy school to have been the biggest mistake of my life and not starting AA school. The realization hit me a few weeks ago that if I had started PA school when I had started pharmacy school, I would be over 60% of the way done with the program by now. No wonder people are applying in droves to PA schools and not pharmacy schools. I still stand by my point that making the decision to stay in pharmacy school just for the sake of FINALLY finishing SOMETHING would have been an idiotic justification, especially when you consider the current state of the field and where it's heading. The only caveat would've been if I truly had no chance of getting accepted to any other graduate health professions programs. In other words, if I had been leaving pharmacy school with a 2.7 overall GPA (not just for pharmacy school classes but for all classes), I would've agreed that I should finish pharmacy school just to have some sort of professional qualification, but instead, the fact that I left with a 3.6+ overall means that I have at least some options. Like I said before, the fact that someone with my background would risk leaving pharmacy school to pursue something else with no guarantees of getting accepted should be a tell-tale indicator of just how bleak pharmacy's outlook is.
     
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  31. confettiflyer

    confettiflyer Did you just say something? 10+ Year Member

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    Not a fan of banning but for the love of Jesus Jones please stop fcking quoting and replying


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
     
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  32. confettiflyer

    confettiflyer Did you just say something? 10+ Year Member

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    No I was saying people relocate. Say California is full, North Dakota has need, the Californian will go to North Dakota with the school opening and return to CA. Already happening.

    Federal govt can't enforce if it's against federal law. You'd have to set up the equiv of a legal, regulated monopoly.


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  33. BidingMyTime

    BidingMyTime Lost Shaker Of Salt 10+ Year Member

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    I agree with Benjammin that residencies are a scam after a formal college/university education (and one that is used in many industries), but I also agree with ConfettiFlyer that they are here to stay, and that there is no practical way to limit or do away with them. We all must just adjust to the new reality.
     
  34. msweph

    msweph 2+ Year Member

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    Hahaha. LOLOL

    Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
     
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  35. msweph

    msweph 2+ Year Member

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    I assume he meant working in IT as a pharmacist, not quitting working or finding a new profession in general

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  36. gwarm01

    gwarm01 7+ Year Member

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    Yep. I feel way more appreciated working in IT. I don't have to deal with any of the attitude, people aren't constantly measuring credentials. I work a great schedule, have very little stress, and make more than I did as a clinical pharmacist. Plus it opens pathways to promotion through hospital administration, or potentially doubling my salary as a consultant.

    I still work as a hospital pharmacist for a PRN side job and I'm happy with that. It's just enough to be fun but not be burnt out, and I don't really care about the politics of a side job.

    edit: about quitting working.. that would be the dream. I'm trying to save / invest fairly aggressively with the hopes of retiring in my 50's. I'd like to still be young enough to enjoy life and my hobbies.
     
  37. wucool33

    wucool33 New Member 10+ Year Member

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    You banned SHC?!?!?! You MONSTER!!!
     
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  38. owlegrad

    owlegrad Uncontrollable Sarcasm Machine Staff Member SDN Administrator 7+ Year Member

    Uhm....what I meant was, whoever banned her still gets complaints. The identity of the banner is of course privileged information.
     
  39. Z-Qualizer

    Z-Qualizer 2+ Year Member

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    "Right here, right now, there is no other place I wanna be."
     
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  40. Z-Qualizer

    Z-Qualizer 2+ Year Member

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    I never said you'd flunk out. You just seem like a fickle person - nothing wrong with that, if that's who you are. Whether you drop out, flunk out, or even make it through, become a PA/AA, & then decide it's not really for you, I just don't see you sticking with ONE thing for very long. And that's OKAY man, it's your life.

    Now will you please start your own thread, so I don't have to derail these nice people's threads???
     
  41. BidingMyTime

    BidingMyTime Lost Shaker Of Salt 10+ Year Member

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    Maybe what we need is a permanent stickied thread for PA2Pharm updates & postings. Seems like a win-win situation for everyone.
     
  42. CYP-0

    CYP-0 Navigator

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    I'm a new grad...and not in a residency program. I am going through a recruitment process right now for a clinical position with a coveted schedule that demanded PGY-1 as a requirement. Turns out that the latter is not as absolute as they made it look. No, I didn't do any APPE's there, neither am I acquainted with anyone there.

    They use some website/program called "Predictive Index" as part of their 'lawn-mowing' process, which makes a lot of sense. The program is suppose to be able to estimate your likely work ethics or attributes, which they believe has more weight than the credentials you may have. Again, very smart system, I think.

    But as far as making PGY-1 universal requirement for hospitals, what about the rural hospitals that sing "no experience required" for their vacancies, let alone a PGY-1? Umm....yeah. I wish ASHP much luck with that. Unless that requirement will be restricted to metro or heavily saturated areas alone.
     
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  43. gwarm01

    gwarm01 7+ Year Member

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    Maybe in a world where every new graduate must have a residency to practice, but hopefully the maniacs that push this stuff haven't strayed that far from the light just yet. Hopefully some people will remember that there was a time before everything was an electronic, multiple-choice exam, and before you could retake your lowest tests several times, and before everything was adaptive to smooth out your grades. Pharmacists who graduated when pharmacy education wasn't a joke are perfectly capable of practicing without having taken an additional year or two of PGY-tutoring to get them up to speed. Imagine turning down a 10-year experienced clinical pharmacist (and let's even say they have BCPS just to satisfy the credential lust) in favor of someone who just graduated from some joke residency program like this guy is in: PGY1 Residency Programs, accreditation with ASHP, and standards • r/pharmacy

    edit: I've never heard of that predictive index you are going through, but it sounds kind of interesting. Most of pharmacy practice is basic enough that you are going to have many qualified candidates for any given position. How can you just narrow it down to the people who aren't going to cause drama, be jerks, or flake out all of the time? I just want someone dependable who can get the job done.
     
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  44. CYP-0

    CYP-0 Navigator

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    My favorite part from your reddit link was that he or she mentioned that they didn't spend more than 20% of the time in their area of practice. And this is precisely the reason why I think most of these programs have become a grandiose scam, which they utilize to save RPh costs. Like a user mentioned, "genius, really." I would rather spend a whole year accumulating real, on-the job experience, while being paid my worth than to be paid peanuts to run a research project...and showcase my journal club skills, only to end up with a staff position and be re-trained for the job. AND I still won't get paid any extra for being PGY1-trained?

    As for the predictive index thing, I never heard of it as well till now; www.predictiveindex.com
    I guess that's their own way of narrowing things down to the most potentially dependable person for the job.
     
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  45. confettiflyer

    confettiflyer Did you just say something? 10+ Year Member

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    C'mon, do people still think PGY-1 is about making better trained pharmacists? It's all about cost reduction and offloading traditional on-the-job training onto temporary contract employees.

    We can easily.... EASILY hire new grads and train them to clinical unicorn status.

    But, why?

    It's like buying the giant Costco pack of salsa without trying it. Why would you even do that when the sample lady is standing right there?

    Even a big proponent of residency like me understands that.
     
  46. CYP-0

    CYP-0 Navigator

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    Perhaps so. But that ideology only favors institutions that are in attractive geographical locations for employment. They have more negotiating power to retain worthy "salsa samples" per their specifications.

    Something along the lines of "ASHP-recommended qualifications of a hospital pharmacist" might be a more acceptable bill. I'm very curious to learn how they plan to enforce PGY-1 as a requirement, if they plan to do so at all.
     
  47. confettiflyer

    confettiflyer Did you just say something? 10+ Year Member

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    They legally cannot. I don't know how people got around to thinking they somehow have the ability to do so.

    ASHP is a private, non-profit organization that has zero bearing on anything outside of its immediate purview accrediting residencies themselves. There's no requirement anyone be a member, much less listen to or adhere to their vision statements.

    Even the residencies themselves don't need to be ASHP accredited. You can open one yourself, flip ASHP the bird, and you will be loved by your hospital administrators. Obviously, the challenges there are private (not being listed on phorcas, graduates not eligible for BPS certs straight away), but it's purely voluntary.

    The only entities that can force requirements onto hospitals would be TJC, CMS, or some other governmental body...which would never ever happen because that idea doesn't make any sense.

    ASHP calling for residencies being required is like me calling for the requirement that everyone love Donald Trump and hang his photo up in their house. Some people might think that's a fantastic idea, but completely unenforceable, at least under this Constitution/system of government.
     
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  48. Dred Pirate

    Dred Pirate 2+ Year Member

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    the closest ASHP could come to requiring it is that they could say if you want to host an accredited residency - all of your RPh's must be residency trained - this may even be a stretch, but they could easily require it of all of your preceptors
     
  49. PharmD500

    PharmD500 SDN Gold Donor Gold Donor

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    Unless the resident ends up staying on after residency, it seems like the hospital is losing money from having them. I wonder why so many hospitals have pharmacy residents or even students. It doesn't seem like a good deal at all. It takes up time and resources for no good reason. At least with regular employees, you invest the time to train them and they usually stay longer than a year.

    What am I missing? And don't say the residency project benefits the hospital, because the projects are usually nothing of great value imo.
     
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  50. PAtoPharm

    PAtoPharm

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    At the local hospital here that has a residency program, the DOP flat-out told me that one of the benefits (from the hospital's perspective) of bringing in new residents every year is that they basically use them as cheap labor instead of hiring new pharmacists on a "regular basis." In fact, the hospital with the residency program hasn't hired a single pharmacist in over 4 years. This fact was first relayed to me by a user on this forum, and at the time, I didn't believe it (this was also when I had whatever transient mental illness caused me to ignore any negative realities presented to me about pharmacy). So for many hospitals, it's basically an issue of cost savings over hiring an "official" pharmacist.
     
  51. gwarm01

    gwarm01 7+ Year Member

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    Reduced cost weekend staffing?
     
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