Asians at a disadvantage?

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huge. asians are expected to have a 35+ on the mcat to be competitive.
 
bleargh said:
huge. asians are expected to have a 35+ on the mcat to be competitive.
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I'll assume sarcasm on this.

So you're trying to get across that it's not a factor at all?
 
It won't hurt you, but it definitely won't help you either.
 
PCxX said:
I keep hearing that they're an ORM in medicine.

Just how big of a factor is this in admissions?
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What really does it matter? Its not something that one can change about one's self before or during the application process (unless you MJ, rip). Why focus on the things that are out of your control?

Kick the **** out of the mcat and your classes to the best of your abilities, care about something enough to participate in it outside of class, and test the medicine waters.
 
Look at the school average on the msar and then add 2 pts on the mcats, and thatis what you need to be competitive if you have the standard ECs, no joke.
 
Infinitydrop said:
Look at the school average on the msar and then add 2 pts on the mcats, and thatis what you need to be competitive if you have the standard ECs, no joke.
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Do you mean for anyone w/ average ECs or just asian americans with average ECs? If its the latter, I find it hard to believe that an adcom would specifically and consciously discriminate based on race and say, "well since he is asian american he really should have at least a 35. what a disgrace! REJECT." They may not even look at race while considering applicants, especially in the screenings. Once students are interviewed, there is a concerted effort to create "diverse" classes. Just maybe it factors in here, but "diverse" means a lot of things.
 
lol theres no factor playing in if you are asian. you are neither considered a URM nor are you expected to out perform anyone else.
 
Just my two cents.

A couple of weeks ago, I got an email about a research opportunity for underrepresented students. It specifically mentioned that asians were "not underrepresented in health care", so you need not apply.......
 
Don15 said:
lol theres no factor playing in if you are asian. you are neither considered a URM nor are you expected to out perform anyone else.
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There's no penalty. You're held to the same standard as anyone else that's not URM.

funklab said:
Just my two cents.

A couple of weeks ago, I got an email about a research opportunity for underrepresented students. It specifically mentioned that asians were "not underrepresented in health care", so you need not apply.......
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Well clearly Asian's are not underrepresented...
 
Well, that not true that they compare all the non urm together. i do believe that the school has a quota for most asian types, and will not exceed that quota. So in reality, you are competing only with your own race. i personally think it sucks more to be asian than white in the application process. I don't think its a just a sterotype that asian people value testing and thus have high grades and scores, which in fact they do a bit on the AMCAS website, but i think the difference is more than most people think because when they combine asian from all parts of asia, bith over and underrepresented in medicine.

To runningdiva, obviously they won't do what you said, but if they only got 30 seats to offer to say Indian students and the applicantiomn pool is filled with 100 people of 35+ with a variety of different ECs, you are clearly at a disadvantage if you have regular ECs and below 35 even though the school's mkatriculation average is only about about a 33.

To be fair, its probably not a whole worse for asians than whites in the admission game, but when you are talking about acceptances in 5% or less range, EVER little bit makes a difference, especially when you are fighting a lot of negative sterotypes against mostly WHITE adcom.
 
Well let's be honest here. Asians are the reason why getting into medical school has become such a gungho process. Not only do you have to have a great GPA and a good MCAT score, you pretty much have to show that you have absolutely NO LIFE outside of studying and curing cancer to have a chance at a well known medical school. Blame the Asians!
 
I'm an Asian female and I have had an interviewer tell me this last cycle that usually Asians need a few points higher due to just the amount of Asian people in Medicine. This includes Indian people too.

But it does depend on where you apply. I think schools also want diversity. I'm sure any school in the South will be more willing to take on Asians than CA schools, NY schools, Big name schools. If you look at the stats for some of these schools, they have like 4 Chinese students so I'm sure you get a little bit of perk for being Asian. However, most Asians won't be appyling to these schools so just apply broadly!
 
Infinitydrop said:
Well, that not true that they compare all the non urm together. i do believe that the school has a quota for most asian types, and will not exceed that quota. So in reality, you are competing only with your own race. i personally think it sucks more to be asian than white in the application process. I don't think its a just a sterotype that asian people value testing and thus have high grades and scores, which in fact they do a bit on the AMCAS website, but i think the difference is more than most people think because when they combine asian from all parts of asia, bith over and underrepresented in medicine.

To runningdiva, obviously they won't do what you said, but if they only got 30 seats to offer to say Indian students and the applicantiomn pool is filled with 100 people of 35+ with a variety of different ECs, you are clearly at a disadvantage if you have regular ECs and below 35 even though the school's mkatriculation average is only about about a 33.

To be fair, its probably not a whole worse for asians than whites in the admission game, but when you are talking about acceptances in 5% or less range, EVER little bit makes a difference, especially when you are fighting a lot of negative sterotypes against mostly WHITE adcom.
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Which would be highly illegal.
 
I am sure it is probably like an unwritten rule that asians have to have highers gpas and mcats. Of course no school will say that it is true, but it obviously is. As shown above, asians only make up 4% of the population yet are an ORM in medicine. African-Americans and Hispanics, respectively are 12% and 15% yet are URM. Of course asians are going to need better numbers.
 
mdbound1987 said:
I am sure it is probably like an unwritten rule that asians have to have highers gpas and mcats. Of course no school will say that it is true, but it obviously is. As shown above, asians only make up 4% of the population yet are an ORM in medicine. African-Americans and Hispanics, respectively are 12% and 15% yet are URM. Of course asians are going to need better numbers.
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Total and utter garbage if true. Institutional racism is pathetic.

Oh well, better apply as "white" then, given I am part white.
 
I don't see it as racism, but that is a topic that comes up far too often on SDN and never achieves anything, so no need to discuss it here. As for applying "white," yea you can prolly get at most, a couple fewer on ur mcat if u do that. Lol.
 
Statistically yes.

Classes have to be diverse, and appropriate to the community they will be serving.

Because there is a disproportionate amount of asians applying, there will be slightly more competition if you are asian.

+1/2 on the MCAT is what you will see in the statistics.

In a way, this is discrimination, but then again, the american system has it such that they look at all factors of your application and this is a known fact, compared to other countries which are more grade focused.

You might benefit, you might not, this is just the system, and at the moment, it works fine.
 
PCxX said:
Total and utter garbage if true. Institutional racism is pathetic.

Oh well, better apply as "white" then, given I am part white.
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The adcoms could fill every single med school seat in the US with qualified Asian candidates. Do you think every doctor in the US should be Asian given the racial makeup of the country? I'm Asian and did just fine in admissions. I find the people who complain about reverse discrimination against "orms" are usually the ones who are mediocre.
 
drizzt3117 said:
The adcoms could fill every single med school seat in the US with qualified Asian candidates. Do you think every doctor in the US should be Asian given the racial makeup of the country? I'm Asian and did just fine in admissions. I find the people who complain about reverse discrimination against "orms" are usually the ones who are mediocre.
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Pretty much this but there are some posts on the main board by Cali students who got into multiple schools but are still mad at URMs the topic was called "A qualitative discussion about URMs" He basically BS'd some stats and ignored all the Asian students who do not get in because the are notWhite yet he blamed the URMs even though URMs have a lower acceptance rate.
 
drizzt3117 said:
The adcoms could fill every single med school seat in the US with qualified Asian candidates. Do you think every doctor in the US should be Asian given the racial makeup of the country? I'm Asian and did just fine in admissions. I find the people who complain about reverse discrimination against "orms" are usually the ones who are mediocre.
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I don't care if they are. I think the job should go to the person with the best credentials - race should play no factor. Any time a person is judged not by their merits, but by their race or status as a racial majority (or minority), it's racism. That's the very definition of racism.

Now, if the difference is almost non-existent and there is no real disadvantage to applying as an Asian, then I have no qualms with ADCOMs here.
 
Jews are probably ORM in medical school and probably have to deal with the same higher bar. Feel better now?

Even if you want to equalize everyone according to the numbers, problem here is that there is no objective standard other than the MCAT. A 3.9 at school X may or may not equal a 3.9 at another school; thus, the medical schools have discretion.

OP wants every school to look like UC Berkeley. Ain't gonna happen.
 
docelh said:
Jews are probably ORM in medical school and probably have to deal with the same higher bar. Feel better now?

OP wants every school to look like UC Berkeley. Ain't gonna happen.
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I don't care. I don't want any race deemed superior to another. If a black or hispanic person has a better application than an asian or white person, then they deserve the spot.

This racial warfare does nothing but worsen the situation.

And I love the use of the strong-man argument. Here's a question for you - why do you wish to punish success? See, I can put words in your mouth too.
 
PCxX said:
I don't care if they are. I think the job should go to the person with the best credentials - race should play no factor. Any time a person is judged not by their merits, but by their race or status as a racial majority (or minority), it's racism. That's the very definition of racism.

Now, if the difference is almost non-existent and there is no real disadvantage to applying as an Asian, then I have no qualms with ADCOMs here.
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I don't think adcoms really judge people by race. To be honest, I feel like a lot of the asian pre-meds/med students aren't the strongest ones in any case. Obviously some of them are really top tier, but in my experience, a lot of the asian gunner premeds actually aren't wonderful when it comes to actually taking care of patients. Maybe the adcoms aren't so dense after all 😛
 
Do ADCOMs consider "Asians" and "Asian Americans" same? Cause that wouldn't be fair since Asians don't speak English as their first language. I definitely spend 2X more effort than Asian American students to get the same grade in humanity classes. Of course it's exactly opposite in physics and physical chemistry.
 
docelh said:
Jews are probably ORM in medical school and probably have to deal with the same higher bar. Feel better now?

Even if you want to equalize everyone according to the numbers, problem here is that there is no objective standard other than the MCAT. A 3.9 at school X may or may not equal a 3.9 at another school; thus, the medical schools have discretion.

OP wants every school to look like UC Berkeley. Ain't gonna happen.
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The last number I saw was that Jews made up 1% of the population but 12% of med students. Asians are about 4% and about 28% of med students.
 
PCxX said:
And I love the use of the strong-man argument. Here's a question for you - why do you wish to punish success? See, I can put words in your mouth too.
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Punish success? That's ridiculous. The only way your argument is valid is if the people medical schools are accepting are failing out in great numbers. Given that less than 1% fail out, I'd have to say they know what they're doing.

Their job is to train doctors who will pass the various exams and residency. They seem to be doing a good job of that.
 
docelh said:
Punish success? That's ridiculous. The only way your argument is valid is if the people medical schools are accepting are failing out in great numbers. Given that less than 1% fail out, I'd have to say they know what they're doing.

Their job is to train doctors who will pass the various exams and residency. They seem to be doing a good job of that.
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I never said they were - I never accused the ADCOM of discrimination, only asked if it was the case.

You accused me of wanting "every school to look like UC Berkley," which wasn't even the point I was trying to make.

My point is that if the asian population as a whole churns out competitive applicants in larger numbers, then why should they be punished for that by having the bar raised for them and them alone? Whether or not that is the case, I don't know - that's why I asked the question in the first place.
 
PCxX said:
I never said they were - I never accused the ADCOM of discrimination, only asked if it was the case.

You accused me of wanting "every school to look like UC Berkley," which wasn't even the point I was trying to make.

My point is that if the asian population as a whole churns out competitive applicants in larger numbers, then why should they be punished for that by having the bar raised for them and them alone? Whether or not that is the case, I don't know - that's why I asked the question in the first place.
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Asians are already 7 times as represented in medicine as their representation in the population, what more do you want? I hardly think they're treated unfairly.
 
PCxX said:
You accused me of wanting "every school to look like Berkley," which wasn't even the point I was trying to make. I hope your reading comprehension is better than that when you take the MCAT.
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The gist is the same. UC Berkeley changed its policy as a result of various lawsuits and pressure to admit students based solely on the hard numbers. This correlates to the argument you're trying to make, which is that medical schools should base admissions solely on the numbers equalized for everyone.

Regardless, I'm empathetic to the plight Asian-Americans face with regards to society's over-expectations of them. I just happen to think that a competitive candidacy is more than just about the numbers. Frankly, a lot of Asian-Americans want to become doctors because of various external pressure from their parents or peer group. And that's just not compelling.
 
docelh said:
The gist is the same. UC Berkeley changed its policy as a result of various lawsuits and pressure to admit students based solely on the hard numbers. This correlates to the argument you're trying to make, which is that medical schools should base admissions solely on the numbers equalized for everyone.

Regardless, I'm empathetic to the plight Asian-Americans face with regards to society's over-expectations of them. I just happen to think that a competitive candidacy is more than just about the numbers. Frankly, a lot of Asian-Americans want to become doctors because of various external pressure from their parents or peer group. And that's just not compelling.
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Well, if their E.C.s, Personal Statement etc. is lacking, then they aren't competitive. Therefore, if another candidate, URM or not, has a more compelling application, then they should get the spot.

I'm not asking for any race to be given any favors in any way. The best person should the job, and as long as race/gender/anything that the applicant cannot control plays no role, then I don't care.
 
There's a lot to be said for diversity in medical school. Learning is better when it's in an environment with people of different backgrounds. I'd want to kill myself if I was in a class with all Asians. That's why I ultimately chose not to go to UCLA med.
 
drizzt3117 said:
Asians are already 7 times as represented in medicine as their representation in the population, what more do you want? I hardly think they're treated unfairly.
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I never said I wanted anything. I only asked if they were. I never accused the ADCOMS of anything, I just read a couple of posts claiming that they were treated unfairly and was just wondering if it were true.

If they are treated fairly, which apparently they are, then I have no issue.
 
Once again, it is what it is. These types of threads seem to always result in a 50/50 end - there seem to be the same amount of people against the system as are people in defense of it. But in regards to credentials, there is a reason why MCAT scores and GPAs are not the sole factors in the admissions process. For the most part, there are some serious explanations for why individuals score higher and lower on the MCATs (such as socioeconomic status that comes with being an URM or ORM), as well as GPA. I'm trying to remain neutral as possible in this situation -I am a URM, born in the "hood" and fortunate enough to spend the latter part of my life in one of the most affluent cities in the world. I didn't have the "head start" some people have, but when I obtained the resources I needed to become successful, I made great use of them. So, I have seen the extremes, and while I typically favor (partially biased) diversity and URM status in medical schools, I also understand why some may feel screwed in the process. Some people try to separate URM and being disadvantaged when for the most part, they are one in the same. Minorities, for the most part, do not have the "head start" some whites and asians have, so they are typically playing catch up come around college and MCAT time. Lack of resources, severely difficult backgrounds are situations all races experience of course, but it is highly concentrated in urban areas that have large minority ratios. What matters, is if they graduate from medical school. Also, I've heard that admissions would rather see someone overcome severe struggles to achieve average scores compared to someone who has had everything provided to them to achieve stellar scores. This is just what I've heard. Nothing is black and white...in fact, this issue is very gray. The only thing we can control as individuals, is how we perform, so let's just stick with that. Good luck to everyone in the application process =)
 
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So I wasn't going to comment on this topic...but the OP doesn't see the pertinence of diversity in the medical field. The fact is, black, hispanic, and native american patients are more comfortable with a physician of their own race. Also diversity helps other ORM physicians to better relate to their minority patients. Trust me, as an African-American, you cannot connect to a Black patient like I can. Just like I cannot connect to an Asian patient like you. It has nothing to do with how great a physician you or I will be. For example, I just volunteered at the Boys and Girls Club the other day with a few Caucasian coworkers of mine. The kids (99% african american) immediately took a liking to me and I was able to truly connect with them. My coworkers were just as nice as I was, but just weren't able to connect on that level. It sounds stupid but it's just a fact of life. Patient comfort/bedside manner is just as important as being proficient at medicine if you want to be a great physician. I find it funny that people who complain think they know what is best for the medical profession and not those governing over the actual medical schools. One thing I've noticed is that those who complain about this topic will never say anything about this after they are accepted. No one tries to make a difference for future ORMs who they feel are being discriminated against in the application process. Have you ever seen this topic arise in the med school forum? No you haven't because once those who complain "get theirs," they are content. It's not about helping their fellow ORMs and addressing an issue they feel genuinely passionate about; it is merely about their inability to get accepted or worry about not getting accepted and bitter demeanor as a result. Worry about what you can control, not what you can't. If you are just venting, you are entitled to freedom of speech so that's fine. Just know that you are wasting your time.
 
Preferences is reality. Racial. In-state/Out-state, top 20 schools, student who scored a glowing letter from the Nobel Laureate is buddies with the dean, trustee's son, Senator Kerry's daughter or Al Gore's daughter (no joke).

Just put your best foot forward. That's all you can do.

I hate bringing up high school, since it was quite awhile ago, but it's the last time I had to deal with admissions. A legacy with a less sterling record got into Harvard, beating out the valedictorian. The best an academically one-dimensional nerdy Asian guy could do was Northwestern. The people who did the best were well-rounded, likeable, and had a compelling story (excluding that Harvard legacy kid). I would assume the same applies for medical school.
 
Good post. One of my favorite things about med school is all the diversity. My best friends in my class are a mix of white, black, mexican, indian, and other hispanic people. Having more perspective when it comes to medicine is helpful. Getting out of your comfort zone a bit helps because you're definitely going to be out of it when dealing with patients much different than yourself.

mdbound1987 said:
So I wasn't going to comment on this topic...but the OP doesn't see the pertinence of diversity in the medical field. The fact is, black, hispanic, and native american patients are more comfortable with a physician of their own race. Also diversity helps other ORM physicians to better relate to their minority patients. Trust me, as an African-American, you cannot connect to a Black patient like I can. Just like I cannot connect to an Asian patient like you. It has nothing to do with how great a physician you or I will be. For example, I just volunteered at the Boys and Girls Club the other day with a few Caucasian coworkers of mine. The kids (99% african american) immediately took a liking to me and I was able to truly connect with them. My coworkers were just as nice as I was, but just weren't able to connect on that level. It sounds stupid but it's just a fact of life. Patient comfort/bedside manner is just as important as being proficient at medicine if you want to be a great physician. I find it funny that people who complain think they know what is best for the medical profession and not those governing over the actual medical schools. One thing I've noticed is that those who complain about this topic will never say anything about this after they are accepted. No one tries to make a difference for future ORMs who they feel are being discriminated against in the application process. Have you ever seen this topic arise in the med school forum? No you haven't because once those who complain "get theirs," they are content. It's not about helping their fellow ORMs and addressing an issue they feel genuinely passionate about; it is merely about their inability to get accepted or worry about not getting accepted and bitter demeanor as a result. Worry about what you can control, not what you can't. If you are just venting, you are entitled to freedom of speech so that's fine. Just know that you are wasting your time.
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ShhhDontTalk said:
Once again, it is what it is. These types of threads seem to always result in a 50/50 end - there seem to be the same amount of people against the system as are people in defense of it. But in regards to credentials, there is a reason why MCAT scores and GPAs are not the sole factors in the admissions process. For the most part, there are some serious explanations for why individuals score higher and lower on the MCATs (such as socioeconomic status that comes with being an URM or ORM), as well as GPA. I'm trying to remain neutral as possible in this situation -I am a URM, born in the "hood" and fortunate enough to spend the latter part of my life in one of the most affluent cities in the world. I didn't have the "head start" some people have, but when I obtained the resources I needed to become successful, I made great use of them. So, I have seen the extremes, and understand why some may feel screwed in the process. Some people try to separate URM and being disadvantaged when for the most part, they are one in the same. Minorities, for the most part, do not have the "head start" some whites and asians have, so they are typically playing catch up come around college and MCAT time. What matters, is if they graduate from medical school. Also, I've heard that admissions would rather see someone overcome severe struggles to achieve average scores compared to someone who has had everything provided to them to achieve stellar scores. This is just what I've heard. Nothing is black and white...in fact, this issue is very gray. The only thing we can control as individuals, is how we perform, so let's just stick with that. Good luck to everyone in the application process =)
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Just to be upfront, I think the Asian attitude towards education is admirable in certain ways. But the whole prep course for SAT, MCAT, whatever, plus many hours of tutoring to make themselves competitive candidates for undergrad and med school makes me sick. What happened to letting people try to succeed or fail on their own abilities?
 
drizzt3117 said:
Just to be upfront, I think the Asian attitude towards education is admirable in certain ways. But the whole prep course for SAT, MCAT, whatever, plus many hours of tutoring to make themselves competitive candidates for undergrad and med school makes me sick. What happened to letting people try to succeed or fail on their own abilities?
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I definitely agree with you. I'll be the first one to admit that my Asian buddies instilled some serious study habits in me that impacted my college career in a huge way. Wish I would have had an attitude similar to theirs from the get go.
 
Alright, nobody is going to change anybody's opinions, so I'm done arguing on the internet (and who does that anyways 😛)

From what I've deduced, asians are not treated negatively in the ADCOMs in any distinguishable fashion which is all I wanted to know in the first place.

Good day!
 
If you want to change things PCxX, the place to do it is definitely not SDN. People here hide themselves behind a computer screen and are very unlikely to ever change their opinions.

Either ways, WAMC isnt the right forum to have this debate.
 
Asians are not discriminated against...that would be highly illegal. The only discrimination (if you want to call it that) is the boost URMs get. There's so much self-pity on this board it's ridiculous.
 
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