Asians: ORM= really bad news?

[silas2642]

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So the fact that I'm asian, does that mean I have less of a chance getting into medical school? I'm not sure if it helps or hurts me, hanging around sdn makes me feel as if its more of a disadvantage than anything else... comments, anyone?

 

[Zuras]

So the fact that I'm asian, does that mean I have less of a chance getting into medical school? I'm not sure if it helps or hurts me, hanging around sdn makes me feel as if its more of a disadvantage than anything else... comments, anyone?

Less than if you were, say, Hispanic? Sure, but no real difference from white applicants.

 

[exmike]

Less than if you were, say, Hispanic? Sure, but no real difference from white applicants.

well depends on how you look at it. matriculated asians have higher avg mcats than whites, that in itself should tell you that its not exactly "no real difference"

 

[jon stewart]

well depends on how you look at it. matriculated asians have higher avg mcats than whites, that in itself should tell you that its not exactly "no real difference"

i think he was talking from a race aspect, in that we are asians are treated the same as whites.

 

[funshine]

you think checking yourself as an "other asian" would help? As opposed to say, chinese

 

[Shredder]

asians/ndns have it hardest, they end up competing against other asians, who have the highest stats, higher than whites. admissions is a zero sum game and each race gets its share of the acceptance pie. its not like economic growth. schools shoot for certain percentages of each race in their classes. after the michigan verdict, these percentages arent set in stone, which may be even worse since now they are subjective. when youre judged in admissions you are judged pretty much against your race, not against everyone. ORM = really bad news. but supposedly weve lived like kings all our lives, so we deserve some punishment in admissions right?

 

[Shredder]

So the fact that I'm asian, does that mean I have less of a chance getting into medical school? I'm not sure if it helps or hurts me, hanging around sdn makes me feel as if its more of a disadvantage than anything else... comments, anyone?

to answer your original questions, and limited to the context of admissions and race: yes, you have less chance, and it definitely hurts you. med schools have enough overachieving, antisocial, nerdy asians, they want diversity and whatnot, you know?

 

[Shredder]

you think checking yourself as an "other asian" would help? As opposed to say, chinese

no, not at all. it will only help if you check yourself as black, hispanic, native injun, or some tiny fraction thereof. bc if you are 1/4 or 1/8 of any of those, that means you live a tough life full of hardship and discrimination. sigh, enough.

 

[Boris Badenov]

I keep a database of stats that examine admissions to individual med schools and a number of applicant variables.

Long story short, Asian = Caucasian for certain schools and Asian = ORM for others. It really depends on the individual adcom's philosophy.

 

[SDNtheone]

I am so happy they dont fill the classes with asians and indian alone.Since we all know every asian and indian who is even halfway good at science is pre-med. Also many of you asians are doctors/professors/engineers kids whose parents either came here to get their PHD and never left or, came here to work and never left. I see no reason why you should even be complaining when a good white person like myself is loosing spots b/c there are so many of you making the ultimate sacrifice to get in... Personally It annoys me when you asians and indians complain about URMS since they make up less than 10 percent of all medical students and you guys make up a huge number( i would guess 30-40 percent)

 

[silas2642]

I am so happy they dont fill the classes with asians and indian alone.Since we all know every asian and indian who is even halfway good at science is pre-med. Also many of you asians are doctors/professors/engineers kids whose parents either came here to get their PHD and never left or, came here to work and never left. I see no reason why you should even be complaining when a good white person like myself is loosing spots b/c there are so many of you making the ultimate sacrifice to get in... Personally It annoys me when you asians and indians complain about URMS since they make up less than 10 percent of all medical students and you guys make up a huge number( i would guess 30-40 percent)

Well, I don't think we make up 30-40 percent of the medical student population... and if we do I guess it's because asia is kind of a big continent. Also, I don't have anything against URMs because, personally I think that we do need some sort of affirmative action to ensure that there are ethnically and racially diverse physicians in the medical field. FYI, I'm quite sure that the vast majority of "we asians" do not come from doctors/professors/engineers... my dad is white and works at Wal-Mart. The thing that cracks me up is when white people start complaining about other races taking up spots that they should have had... how does it feel to have the tables turned on you?

 

[Jbienven]

Well, I don't think we make up 30-40 percent of the medical student population... and if we do I guess it's because asia is kind of a big continent. Also, I don't have anything against URMs because, personally I think that we do need some sort of affirmative action to ensure that there are ethnically and racially diverse physicians in the medical field. FYI, I'm quite sure that the vast majority of "we asians" do not come from doctors/professors/engineers... my dad is white and works at Wal-Mart. The thing that cracks me up is when white people start complaining about other races taking up spots that they should have had... how does it feel to have the tables turned on you?

If your father is white, legally are you white or asian? Just asking.

Or is there a legality to the issue? Just curious.

 

[silas2642]

If your father is white, legally are you white or asian? Just asking.

Or is there a legality to the issue? Just curious.

I'm adopted. Funny how no one ever thinks of that. I have two sisters who are asian and a puerto rican brother-- we're all adopted.

 

[riceman04]

I am so happy they dont fill the classes with asians and indian alone.Since we all know every asian and indian who is even halfway good at science is pre-med. Also many of you asians are doctors/professors/engineers kids whose parents either came here to get their PHD and never left or, came here to work and never left. I see no reason why you should even be complaining when a good white person like myself is loosing spots b/c there are so many of you making the ultimate sacrifice to get in... Personally It annoys me when you asians and indians complain about URMS since they make up less than 10 percent of all medical students and you guys make up a huge number( i would guess 30-40 percent)

Preach brotha preach! (no worries, I know you are white)

 

[wetlightning]

dude, being asian won't hurt you that much, but it def won't help you either. you're competing against qualified applicants of all ethnicities, not some invisible 'asian' benchmark....certain personality traits/stereotypes will be held against you, however, so keep that in mind when interviewing.

 

[riceman04]

asians/ndns have it hardest, they end up competing against other asians, who have the highest stats, higher than whites. admissions is a zero sum game and each race gets its share of the acceptance pie. its not like economic growth. schools shoot for certain percentages of each race in their classes. after the michigan verdict, these percentages arent set in stone, which may be even worse since now they are subjective. when youre judged in admissions you are judged pretty much against your race, not against everyone. ORM = really bad news. but supposedly weve lived like kings all our lives, so we deserve some punishment in admissions right?

Ok so shredder I am over what you have said in the past (that's history). But I am just curious if you have actually served on an admissions committee b/c you speak as if you have insight into the actual process. If so, by all means enlighten a brotha.......but if not, ensure that the info you are presenting is COMPLETELY correct. I know that to an extent there are quotas that are maintained under that table, but I do not know to what extent.

 

[mi1020]

I wonder what the racial breakdown of medical school matriculants would be like if we went by the percentages of each race within the American population... of course, I'm not saying that Chinese Americans are only qualified to treat fellow Chinese Americans, etc. but it would be interesting to see if it differs significantly from the percentages that schools like UMich accept...

 

[Shredder]

certain personality traits/stereotypes will be held against you

yeah...like the type who value studying, learning and achievement over extracurricular activities. generally speaking--not to point any fingers. the brainiac asians/whatever race who spend all day cooped up in their study cubicles are the ones who end up inventing new drugs and technologies. that doesnt necessarily entail phd either, as drs are well capable of inventing and pioneering as well. good clinicians are a dime a dozen. few medical phenomena require deep thought or critical analysis to treat. it takes a stroke of genius, however, to deal with the toughest cases or push the frontiers of medicine forward.

and there is certainly an invisible asian benchmark if one looks at mdapplicants or any other source of data. any. it would better to just make it visible and stop with the games. i guess one could call it the glass floor of asian admission requirements.

 

[Mixtli]

I really wished they didn't factor race into admissions. A much fairer criteria would be socioeconomic factors. It makes no sense how your skin color makes you more or less advantaged.

 

[SDNtheone]

yeah...like the type who value studying, learning and achievement over extracurricular activities. generally speaking--not to point any fingers. the brainiac asians/whatever race who spend all day cooped up in their study cubicles are the ones who end up inventing new drugs and technologies. that doesnt necessarily entail phd either, as drs are well capable of inventing and pioneering as well. good clinicians are a dime a dozen. few medical phenomena require deep thought or critical analysis to treat. it takes a stroke of genius, however, to deal with the toughest cases or push the frontiers of medicine forward.

and there is certainly an invisible asian benchmark if one looks at mdapplicants or any other source of data. any. it would better to just make it visible and stop with the games. i guess one could call it the glass floor of asian admission requirements.

quit complaning! no one is reading! The fact is you asians might all major in science but, when was the last time an asian won the noble prize in science?? This proves that even though you guys have taken over(pretty much).You ain't finding anything that is groundbreaking. I would like to add that the guy who makes the great discovery usually finds it by luck and thinking out of the box.. Just b/c you can memorize and crunch numbers does not really mean you can make great discoveries.

 

[SDNtheone]

I really wished they didn't factor race into admissions. A much fairer criteria would be socioeconomic factors. It makes no sense how your skin color makes you more or less advantaged.

well I think race should be a factor when the 2nd and 3rd most prevelant races in america make up less than 10 percent of it's doctors. You asians on average make more than 50 thousand bucks a year(higest in america) while urms average less than 30(lowest in america). But IMO this and the fact that they are so few makes in necessary that all qualified URMS rich or poor are heavily recruited.

 

[radioh3ad]

well I think race should be a factor when the 2nd and 3rd most prevelant races in america make up less than 10 percent of it's doctors. You asians on average make more than 50 thousand bucks a year(higest in america) while urms average less than 30(lowest in america). But IMO this and the fact that they are so few makes in necessary that all qualified URMS rich or poor are heavily recruited.

even though your language is quite antagonistic, i feel what you're saying.

yes i'm Chinese. don't call me "you Asians", i don't want to be grouped with Koreans, Japanese, Indians. no offense, but that's just not me.

 

[Camillekc]

Is the level of latent (or not) racism in this thread bothering anyone but me?

If you want to talk about the stereotypes surrounding asians, perhaps you should first look at the stereotypes surrounding whites in this country (racist, xenophobic, etc.) and then look at yourself. Because, though it is difficult to tell from this thread, not all of "you guys" (whites) are bigots, just as not all asians major in science, never leave the library, and don't think originally. Perhaps you should get out of your bubble and do some thinking of your own on race relations before basing your comments on your own stereotypes, fears and insecurities.

I'm going to continue thinking well of the world and this country by assuming at least some of these comments were facetious.

 

[Iwy Em Hotep]

but, when was the last time an asian won the noble prize in science??

2002.

To the OP, there's really no point in worrying about this. You can't exactly change who you are now, but you can work on being the best applicant you can be, regardless of race or ethnicity.

 

[wetlightning]

thank you radio, camille, and iwy for your mature, well-thought-out responses.

i'm an asian (indian) and have tried to be very fair about approaching both perspectives to this question (see my earlier post), but the sudden explosion of totally unwarranted language -- "you asians," "since when did you win a noble prize," etc.--is kind of starting to piss me off.

first of all, learn how to spell. secondly, stop lumping a multitude of ethnicities together under the collective term "asian." it's wrong and completely offensive. don't assume that all asians are bookworms who never get out of the library, have limited people skills, and only take math and science courseloads. making such statements only throws into sharp relief your own lack of insight.

also, i'm the first to agree that there need to be definite provisions to recruit more URM docs in this country, but there is no need to undercut other ethnicities simply to make this point. the fact is, it's not right that asians are stereotyped and (possibly) discriminated against simply b/c they come from cultures that emphasize education and are lucky enough to have family backgrounds that make this possible. before labeling all asian parents as doctors and engineers, realize the various levels of difficulty they had to encounter in order to immigrate and live on limited pay-often for long periods of time-so that their kids could be better off.

let's be mature about all sides of this question.

 

[Mixtli]

"the fact is, it's not right that asians are stereotyped and (possibly) discriminated against simply b/c they come from cultures that emphasize education and are lucky enough to have family backgrounds that make this possible. before labeling all asian parents as doctors and engineers, realize the various levels of difficulty they had to encounter in order to immigrate and live on limited pay-often for long periods of time-so that their kids could be better off."

I'm Chinese. Yes, Asian culture emphasize education. However, not every Asian immigrant are lucky to be doctors, engineers, or lawyers.
Some of my relatives in Boston are making minimum wage, on welfare, and struggling with the English and social barriers. There are difficulties in life for everyone.

 

[Shredder]

quit complaning! no one is reading! The fact is you asians might all major in science but, when was the last time an asian won the noble prize in science?? This proves that even though you guys have taken over(pretty much).You ain't finding anything that is groundbreaking. I would like to add that the guy who makes the great discovery usually finds it by luck and thinking out of the box.. Just b/c you can memorize and crunch numbers does not really mean you can make great discoveries.

when is the last time a URM won a nobel prize for anything except (lame) peace. maybe literature but thats also dubious compared to the other prizes. asians do win plenty of nobel prizes in the sciences, try doing a little research next time before spouting off unfounded idiocy. ain't ain't a word. i would like to add that no one ever won a nobel prize by engaging in intense extracurricular activities and exploitation of affirmative action opportunities. learning does not equate to memorizing and crunching numbers as you would like to believe, it means absorbing and processing information, then finding ways to apply it and unearth even more information and discoveries.

your username is asinine. and obviously youre reading

 

[wetlightning]

giggles,

that's exactly what i'm saying. that asians are so often stereotyped as doctors, engineers, lawyers, and that's erroneous...so it's not fair to label asian kids as the children of privilege, when their families might have gone through so much (as you mentioned your relatives have)...

 

[Shredder]

the fact that so many americans look down on "antisocial nerds" is the reason all of the jobs are going to india and china of late, where said nerds are exalted

 

[ltk2011]

first of all i am not just "you asians". second of all asians haven't won many nobel prize because for the better part of 20th century asia had wars after wars. so the scientific developements have been hindered by the war efforts.
i predict asia will produce next generation of world's top scientific minds.

 

[frostynorthwind]

No offense directed to anyone, but at times like this, i'm a little ashamed to be a white premed. If you can't recognize the lack of diversity in medicine as a detriment or think of situations in which other values supercede merit alone in society, I fear that you are either a conservative midwesterner (as a Kansan, I think I can say this...) or feel inadequate with respect to your own ability.

Is race a valid indicator of educational background? No, I agree that socioeconomic status would be a more valid judge of that, but since when did voicing complaints directed to no one solve anything? If you feel really strongly about, take action and write a politician. Otherwise, focus on what you can change...

 

[wetlightning]

hahaha, poor sdntheone...now he has all the offended asians descending upon him en masse.

that's what you get when you can't spell (oh, and make stupid/offensive statements) 🙂

 

[crazy_cavalier]

I am so happy they dont fill the classes with asians and indian alone.Since we all know every asian and indian who is even halfway good at science is pre-med. Also many of you asians are doctors/professors/engineers kids whose parents either came here to get their PHD and never left or, came here to work and never left. I see no reason why you should even be complaining when a good white person like myself is loosing spots b/c there are so many of you making the ultimate sacrifice to get in... Personally It annoys me when you asians and indians complain about URMS since they make up less than 10 percent of all medical students and you guys make up a huge number( i would guess 30-40 percent)

TROLL!

 

[radioh3ad]

to turn this thread around, how bout we start revealing what kind of profession asian families are actually into.

my parents are in neither science, health or business professions. they're in journalism. my brother is in music production.

i'll hopefully be the first doctor in our family.

 

[DrHopeless]

No point in complaining about your ethnicity, because it is who you are; just have to deal with it. As for ORM, it is all depend on perspective; if you break down the Asian group (like the AMCAS app and maybe the medical schools) then none of the group are really ORM. I am Vietnamese and I can tell you that the medical school that I hope to attend only has 5-6 Vietnamese at max.

PS: My dad is an air condition repair man and my mom is a hair stylish, so yeah..... not all of us are from a medical background.

 

[radioh3ad]

No point in complaining about your ethnicity, because it is who you are; just have to deal with it. As for ORM, it is all depend on perspective; if you break down the Asian group (like the AMCAS app and maybe the medical schools) then none of the group are really ORM. I am Vietnamese and I can tell you that the medical school that I hope to attend only has 5-6 Vietnamese at max.

which i think represent a larger portion than the actual U.S. fraction that viets take up.

 

[ssk123]

well I think race should be a factor when the 2nd and 3rd most prevelant races in america make up less than 10 percent of it's doctors. You asians on average make more than 50 thousand bucks a year(higest in america) while urms average less than 30(lowest in america). But IMO this and the fact that they are so few makes in necessary that all qualified URMS rich or poor are heavily recruited.

i really hope this person is just trying to get a rise out people on the forums. I can't believe anyone in this age would make such awful racist claims. It's obvious your circle of friends don't include asians, b/c if it did, you would realize that there are plenty of asians who don't follow your mold. It's narrow-mindedness like this that perpetuates such subtle and damaging racist ideas.

 

[frostynorthwind]

crazycavalier-- truly awesome troll sign!!! kudos to you!

 

[tank you]

no, not at all. it will only help if you check yourself as black, hispanic, native injun, or some tiny fraction thereof. bc if you are 1/4 or 1/8 of any of those, that means you live a tough life full of hardship and discrimination. sigh, enough.

Shredder, you are a funny one, haha

 

[ssk123]

TROLL!

Regardless of whether this is a troll, I know that other people actually believe in these stereotypes. I think it's important to broadcast to others who think these ideas but don't say them that people need to be more open-minded.

Oh, and for the record, my parents never wanted me to go into the medical profession. They actually tried to convince me that it would be too difficult for me. I wasn't a science major, and I definitely did not just sit in my room and study all day during my four years of college.

 

[cfdavid]

I am so happy they dont fill the classes with asians and indian alone.Since we all know every asian and indian who is even halfway good at science is pre-med. Also many of you asians are doctors/professors/engineers kids whose parents either came here to get their PHD and never left or, came here to work and never left. I see no reason why you should even be complaining when a good white person like myself is loosing spots b/c there are so many of you making the ultimate sacrifice to get in... Personally It annoys me when you asians and indians complain about URMS since they make up less than 10 percent of all medical students and you guys make up a huge number( i would guess 30-40 percent)

Dude, you gotta be kidding. So what? By all means, it's their right to pursue whatever profession they want. And if they produce high numbers, it's not their problem. Come on.

 

[crazy_cavalier]

crazycavalier-- truly awesome troll sign!!! kudos to you!

haha too bad I didn't make it... can I get brownie points for finding it? 😉

 

[tank you]

to answer the OPs question, yes it is more difficult for ORMs, but especially if you are male ORM, it really sux 🙁

 

[UCDavisdude]

quit complaning! no one is reading! The fact is you asians might all major in science but, when was the last time an asian won the noble prize in science?? This proves that even though you guys have taken over(pretty much).You ain't finding anything that is groundbreaking. I would like to add that the guy who makes the great discovery usually finds it by luck and thinking out of the box.. Just b/c you can memorize and crunch numbers does not really mean you can make great discoveries.

dont be an ass.....that statement really sounds like your talking ****, and its not cool. get a grip.

 

[cfdavid]

first of all i am not just "you asians". second of all asians haven't won many nobel prize because for the better part of 20th century asia had wars after wars. so the scientific developements have been hindered by the war efforts.
i predict asia will produce next generation of world's top scientific minds.

I don't disagree that "asians" will produce many scientific discoveries (and are currently), but the war arguement holds no water. Look at "white" history. That's all you'll see. In fact, one could argue that war may spur certain kinds of technological developments given that innovation is critical to winning.

 

[medhacker]

when is the last time a URM won a nobel prize for anything except (lame) peace.

Nobel prize in Physiology and medicine 1984
Nobel price in Physiology and Medicine 1980
Nobel Price in Physiology and Medicine 1959
Nobel prize in physics 1968
Nobel prize in chemistry 1970

try doing a little research next time before spouting off unfounded idiocy

🙄

 

[Shredder]

Nobel prize in Physiology and medicine 1984
Nobel price in Physiology and Medicine 1980
Nobel Price in Physiology and Medicine 1959
Nobel prize in physics 1968
Nobel prize in chemistry 1970

🙄

😳 ok, im not obstinate, im willing to stand corrected. it was a pretty rash statement in response to a rash statement. i wasnt aware of those sudamericans proclivity for the sciences? one thing to consider is that not all minorities receive AA--for example do cubans?

No offense directed to anyone, but at times like this, i'm a little ashamed to be a white premed. If you can't recognize the lack of diversity in medicine as a detriment or think of situations in which other values supercede merit alone in society, I fear that you are either a conservative midwesterner (as a Kansan, I think I can say this...) or feel inadequate with respect to your own ability.

Is race a valid indicator of educational background? No, I agree that socioeconomic status would be a more valid judge of that, but since when did voicing complaints directed to no one solve anything? If you feel really strongly about, take action and write a politician. Otherwise, focus on what you can change...

im not in line with your first paragraph (i think diversity is overrated and political, merit is priority, and i feel very adequate about my abilities; oh and im from urban houston), but the 2nd brings up an excellent point. empty complaining is useless--whats the key to taking action? ive never written to a politician, do you think it will produce results on this issue?

 

[TheMightyAngus]

Doesn't anyone realize that reporting your race is optional on all applications? If you really think that being Asian/Indian is detrimental to your chances, don't include that info. I should preface this post by saying that this only applies to schools that don't ask for your picture; unless you don't look particularly Asian/Indian, then you have free reign to declare you non-allegiance.

 

[medhacker]

😳ne thing to consider is that not all minorities receive AA--for example do cubans?

All Hispanics receive AA, not all receive URM status. Alvarez who is a physics laureate was puerto rican.

 

[riceman04]

the fact that so many americans look down on "antisocial nerds" is the reason all of the jobs are going to india and china of late, where said nerds are exalted

No actually those jobs are going to china and india b/c those people are willing to work for $.10/hour (overdoing it a little).

Take a hint next time you call your computer company for service. Intelligence to me is definitely not defined by their ability to read from a freaking paper. And if you deviate from possible questions that are on that paper, be prepared to hear them mindlessly repeat the question as if they suddenly are not capable of speaking english. Oh and the accent is sooooooooo damn annoying!

Low income workers are getting too smart for their bosses and are demanding more. So why not go to a country where the people will work like slaves for pennies and yet be as efficient.