Asians: ORM= really bad news?

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i truly believe that if your entire family is already into the medical field, then it is natural for you to pursue the same, bc being around one type of community your entire life influences you more than you think.
i think thats one of the main reasons that indian/asian people go into medicine, bc their parents & relatives are already in profession, and they see the rewards it offers
 
Shredder said:
the british did this and that in south africa, but presently its the best country on the continent. it can be compared to its nearby neighbors such as sudan and the congo, which the brits left alone. something to consider

Do you know what the Belgians did in the Congo?
 
Camillekc said:
Do you know what the Belgians did in the Congo?
no, im bad at history. but hey, nobody can match up to british imperialism and its long lasting effects
 
it may take 2 to tango, but you also gotta know what you are doing to tango well. So far, i feel that many don't. I am shocked at the level of myopia and racism expressed by some people so far, not just sdntheone. Neither of these two qualities has anything to do with political correctness or liberalism versus conservatism.

1. Research is not simply an intellectual endeavour. Above all, it places huge demands on a country's economic resources. Think about the size of NIH's budget that is needed to maintain America's place at the forefront of scientific discovery. A country, such as China, that can barely feed its own people until a decade ago obviously could not commit the same amount of resources as the West to support its own scientists, doesn't matter how smart they may be, or how capable they are of "thinking outside the box". Research also takes a lot of personal energy. If your priority is to scavenge for food and cloth your family, then personally, I would feel that the quantum mechanics of protein folding can wait, doesn't matter if I were white, yellow, black or neon green. Japan is a perfect example of this. Being the most modern and developed country in Asia post WWII, it has contributed the most to science of all asian countries, and culminated in the highest number of Asian prize winners. Therefore, although the Nobel Prize could be a benchmark of contemporary research, it nonetheless honors research that is decades old at the least, when the world had a distinctly different socioeconomic map compared to today. I think it is safe to bet that the prizes to be awarded in our generation and the next, will begin to reflect more and more the current socioeconomic trends, which means more contributions from Indian and Chinese scientists.

2. Another reason that there are few Asian, especially East-Asian immigrants at the top of the ladder is the significant culture gap. Unlike European immigrants who can adapt readily to the culture, and South-Asian ones who do not have the language gap, it is very hard for Chinese immigrants to integrate into society. When you don't find your bosses' jokes funny and can't understand the rules of football, it is very hard to get promoted. I think as the second generation immigrants mature, there will be more and more Asian leaders.

3. Although it is true that many Asians put in long hours in the lab, and may indeed engender the stereotype of Asian post-docs slaving away for the PI, it is disgusting that people view this in a derogatory and racist fashion. If you had bothered to think about this a little more, you would realize that it is the essence of the "American Dream", which is the very reason they immigrated here to begin with. America prides itself in being a meritocracy, and in a meritocracy, the person who works the hardest, has the best ideas, and deserves it the most gets it. Ironically, without the dreamers and visionaries that pursue this dream, America would not be what it is today. We would not have the current commerce secretary who started by driving a Kellog's cereal truck in Mexico, or Dr. Vilceck who came here to escape persecution from racists (again, ironically) and who just donated 100 million to NYU after a career of biomedical research, or the countless number of doctors and faculty members who happen to be Asian. Even more ironically, those who are now enjoying the economic fruits of these immigrants' labour are now condemning them for pursuing the very dream.

4. I feel the stereotype of the calculus class Chinese kid who has trouble making friends is also true. However, it is also important to realize its historical and social roots. The chinese education system is predicated entirely on standardized tests. Therefore many families who immigrate here raise their children in the same mould, assuming that a narrow minded focus on academics is the sure and only way to success. This behaviour is not beneficial to society and should not be condoned in any ethnicity. In my experience however, these people also don't get very far as the Western system is designed to weed out these people. At top undergrad schools at least, there are a lot of asians, but few of them only know how to study (or play the piano for that matter).

whatever your politics is on immigration and outsourcing, thats none of my business. But I couldn't stand reading *****ic posts spewing racist and xenophobic propaganda.

By the way, I was born in china and immigrated to canada when i was a kid. I now go to undergrad in the states.

Just to add one more thing, I wouldn't advocate so much for British colonialism, or any form of imperialismt for that matter, before you learn a little more history. To get you started, you may want to take a look at the the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the Indian-Pakistan-Kashmir mess, the ethnic violence in Afganistan, the Opium wars in East asia, the Sudan mess, the Congo (as mentioned by someone else), and the Rwandan massacres (although that was Belgian). In fact, almost any place in Africa would be a good place to start.
 
threemusketeers said:
it may take 2 to tango, but you also gotta know what you are doing to tango well. So far, i feel that many don't. I am shocked at the level of myopia and racism expressed by some people so far, not just sdntheone. Neither of these two qualities has anything to do with political correctness or liberalism versus conservatism.

1. Research is not simply an intellectual endeavour. Above all, it places huge demands on a country's economic resources. Think about the size of NIH's budget that is needed to maintain America's place at the forefront of scientific discovery. A country, such as China, that can barely feed its own people until a decade ago obviously could not commit the same amount of resources as the West to support its own scientists, doesn't matter how smart they may be, or how capable they are of "thinking outside the box". Research also takes a lot of personal energy. If your priority is to scavenge for food and cloth your family, then personally, I would feel that the quantum mechanics of protein folding can wait, doesn't matter if I were white, yellow, black or neon green. Japan is a perfect example of this. Being the most modern and developed country in Asia post WWII, it has contributed the most to science of all asian countries, and culminated in the highest number of Asian prize winners. Therefore, although the Nobel Prize could be a benchmark of contemporary research, it nonetheless honors research that is decades old at the least, when the world had a distinctly different socioeconomic map compared to today. I think it is safe to bet that the prizes to be awarded in our generation and the next, will begin to reflect more and more the current socioeconomic trends, which means more contributions from Indian and Chinese scientists.

2. Another reason that there are few Asian, especially East-Asian immigrants at the top of the ladder is the significant culture gap. Unlike European immigrants who can adapt readily to the culture, and South-Asian ones who do not have the language gap, it is very hard for Chinese immigrants to integrate into society. When you don't find your bosses' jokes funny and can't understand the rules of football, it is very hard to get promoted. I think as the second generation immigrants mature, there will be more and more Asian leaders.

3. Although it is true that many Asians put in long hours in the lab, and may indeed engender the stereotype of Asian post-docs slaving away for the PI, it is disgusting that people view this in a derogatory and racist fashion. If you had bothered to think about this a little more, you would realize that it is the essence of the "American Dream", which is the very reason they immigrated here to begin with. America prides itself in being a meritocracy, and in a meritocracy, the person who works the hardest, has the best ideas, and deserves it the most gets it. Ironically, without the dreamers and visionaries that pursue this dream, America would not be what it is today. We would not have the current commerce secretary who started by driving a Kellog's cereal truck in Mexico, or Dr. Vilceck who came here to escape persecution from racists (again, ironically) and who just donated 100 million to NYU after a career of biomedical research, or the countless number of doctors and faculty members who happen to be Asian. Even more ironically, those who are now enjoying the economic fruits of these immigrants' labour are now condemning them for pursuing the very dream.

4. I feel the stereotype of the calculus class Chinese kid who has trouble making friends is also true. However, it is also important to realize its historical and social roots. The chinese education system is predicated entirely on standardized tests. Therefore many families who immigrate here raise their children in the same mould, assuming that a narrow minded focus on academics is the sure and only way to success. This behaviour is not beneficial to society and should not be condoned in any ethnicity. In my experience however, these people also don't get very far as the Western system is designed to weed out these people. At top undergrad schools at least, there are a lot of asians, but few of them only know how to study (or play the piano for that matter).

whatever your politics is on immigration and outsourcing, thats none of my business. But I couldn't stand reading *****ic posts spewing racist and xenophobic propaganda.

By the way, I was born in china and immigrated to canada when i was a kid. I now go to undergrad in the states.

Just to add one more thing, I wouldn't advocate so much for British colonialism, or any form of imperialismt for that matter, before you learn a little more history. To get you started, you may want to take a look at the the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the Indian-Pakistan-Kashmir mess, the ethnic violence in Afganistan, the Opium wars in East asia, the Sudan mess, the Congo (as mentioned by someone else), and the Rwandan massacres (although that was Belgian). In fact, almost any place in Africa would be a good place to start.


Great post.
 
7) More often than not, the first thing to do is to know who you tangle…I mean…tango with. Some people here live unlimited number of lives preying for overly enthusiastic sparring partners. To me, this SDNtheonce is just one of many versions. Those weak few-liners jabs do nothing much. The guy sticks them out just to keep his favorite entertainment going.
 
calcrew14 said:
7) More often than not, the first thing to do is to know who you tangle…I mean…tango with. Some people here live unlimited number of lives preying for overly enthusiastic sparring partners. To me, this SDNtheonce is just one of many versions. Those weak few-liners jabs does nothing much. The guy sticks them out just to keep his favorite entertainment going.
all this tango talk is getting awfully convoluted. isnt the point supposed to be that tangoing is a choice that requires the willing consent of two parties. if one is overly enthusiastic about tangoing and trips and falls, he shouldnt get mad at his partner
 
gujuDoc said:
I'm not disputing that what you may say is so. I was just using that as an example as to why this stupid troll has no claim in saying that white's don't steal, when in fact that's all the Europeans have been shown to do in ancient history.

Come on guju. You know better than that.
 
pretentious premeds. gotta love em. well... us.
especially when we egg eachother's said pretense.

you tossers got so much to learn. can't wait to do it with y'all in teh m3dikal sk007.
 
hey...back to the op of this thread--if youre adopted, do med schools consider guardianship or genetics? im almost certain its genetics, but if its guardianship then i may have to seek law2doc to work some legal magic for me to temporarily become hispanic during apps. or hell, why not black if looks dont matter
 
Shredder said:
hey...back to the op of this thread--if youre adopted, do med schools consider guardianship or genetics? im almost certain its genetics, but if its guardianship then i may have to seek law2doc to work some legal magic for me to temporarily become hispanic during apps. or hell, why not black if looks dont matter

hahah My last name sounds like it is hispanic so I would like to see if it could work. Since you are applying now, how do medical schools verify your race?
 
CTSballer11 said:
hahah My last name sounds like it is hispanic so I would like to see if it could work. Since you are applying now, how do medical schools verify your race?

i'm pretty sure they count on the applicant to be honest if the name is not obvious. if you do happen to get an interview and they realize that you're, in fact, not hispanic then there will probably some trouble for you.
 
CTSballer11 said:
hahah My last name sounds like it is hispanic so I would like to see if it could work. Since you are applying now, how do medical schools verify your race?
mine too and ive been mistaken for it; since i was a little kid my moms told me to mark hispanic everywhere, i shouldve listened. i dont really know how they verify, maybe they check past records. i thought about faking it, but i figured it might come back to haunt me later if people dig up dirt. maybe if i dont get in somewhere good this cycle ill cook up something juicy and reapply as a new man, and get across the board acceptances with integrity thrown to the wind in the face of an unjust system
 
Shredder said:
mine too and ive been mistaken for it; since i was a little kid my moms told me to mark hispanic everywhere, i shouldve listened. i dont really know how they verify, maybe they check past records. i thought about faking it, but i figured it might come back to haunt me later if people dig up dirt.

Man I wish I would have checked the hispanic boxes when I was a kid. Being a URM would be such a great advantage, but if down the road you become some hot shot your enemies would probably find some dirt there. Oh well we gotta get in on our own merit.
 
CTSballer11 said:
Man I wish I would have checked the hispanic boxes when I was a kid. Being a URM would be such a great advantage, but if down the road you become some hot shot your enemies would probably find some dirt there. Oh well we gotta get in on our own merit.
you just have to maintain the facade until you attain enough power and status to where dirt is irrelevant. such as dirt on bill gates--why would he care except for a little embarassment. alas, its too late for us. we can pass on the wisdom to younger folks.
 
Shredder said:
mine too and ive been mistaken for it; since i was a little kid my moms told me to mark hispanic everywhere, i shouldve listened. i dont really know how they verify, maybe they check past records. i thought about faking it, but i figured it might come back to haunt me later if people dig up dirt. maybe if i dont get in somewhere good this cycle ill cook up something juicy and reapply as a new man, and get across the board acceptances with integrity thrown to the wind in the face of an unjust system

I hear you man. This system is so unjust it pisses me off when I think about it. I do not look spanish so I might have to die my hair black. My mom is dutch and has really light hair and green eyes so I look more like her than my father who is greek. Still though, there are plenty of hispanics that do not look hispanic, ie:Christina aguilera.

How much of an advantage do you think being a URM will give you?
 
CTSballer11 said:
I hear you man. This system is so unjust it pisses me off when I think about it. I do not look spanish so I might have to die my hair black. My mom is dutch and has really light hair and green eyes so I look more like her than my father who is greek. Still though, there are plenty of hispanics that do not look hispanic, ie:Christina aguilera.

How much of an advantage do you think being a URM will give you?
ever checked out mdapplicants.com? just run searches at ivys for sub 30 mcats and sub 3.5 gpas. i know for certain that if i could change one check box on my apps, i could get into every school with recruitment and scholarships. also special cuddling throughout med school. for ppl who dont look like it, theres always the fractional claim. and as for unjust, there are plenty who say the sytem is unjust to them and this makes up for it. ah, politics

the urms do a great job of making political noise though=this situation

edit: those stats were a little bit of a stretch, but not much. some still show up. fool with it and youll see. doh, nm theres an ethnicity search box, that just might be easier.
 
threemusketeers said:
it may take 2 to tango, but you also gotta know what you are doing to tango well. So far, i feel that many don't. I am shocked at the level of myopia and racism expressed by some people so far, not just sdntheone. Neither of these two qualities has anything to do with political correctness or liberalism versus conservatism.

1. Research is not simply an intellectual endeavour. Above all, it places huge demands on a country's economic resources. Think about the size of NIH's budget that is needed to maintain America's place at the forefront of scientific discovery. A country, such as China, that can barely feed its own people until a decade ago obviously could not commit the same amount of resources as the West to support its own scientists, doesn't matter how smart they may be, or how capable they are of "thinking outside the box". Research also takes a lot of personal energy. If your priority is to scavenge for food and cloth your family, then personally, I would feel that the quantum mechanics of protein folding can wait, doesn't matter if I were white, yellow, black or neon green. Japan is a perfect example of this. Being the most modern and developed country in Asia post WWII, it has contributed the most to science of all asian countries, and culminated in the highest number of Asian prize winners. Therefore, although the Nobel Prize could be a benchmark of contemporary research, it nonetheless honors research that is decades old at the least, when the world had a distinctly different socioeconomic map compared to today. I think it is safe to bet that the prizes to be awarded in our generation and the next, will begin to reflect more and more the current socioeconomic trends, which means more contributions from Indian and Chinese scientists.

2. Another reason that there are few Asian, especially East-Asian immigrants at the top of the ladder is the significant culture gap. Unlike European immigrants who can adapt readily to the culture, and South-Asian ones who do not have the language gap, it is very hard for Chinese immigrants to integrate into society. When you don't find your bosses' jokes funny and can't understand the rules of football, it is very hard to get promoted. I think as the second generation immigrants mature, there will be more and more Asian leaders.

3. Although it is true that many Asians put in long hours in the lab, and may indeed engender the stereotype of Asian post-docs slaving away for the PI, it is disgusting that people view this in a derogatory and racist fashion. If you had bothered to think about this a little more, you would realize that it is the essence of the "American Dream", which is the very reason they immigrated here to begin with. America prides itself in being a meritocracy, and in a meritocracy, the person who works the hardest, has the best ideas, and deserves it the most gets it. Ironically, without the dreamers and visionaries that pursue this dream, America would not be what it is today. We would not have the current commerce secretary who started by driving a Kellog's cereal truck in Mexico, or Dr. Vilceck who came here to escape persecution from racists (again, ironically) and who just donated 100 million to NYU after a career of biomedical research, or the countless number of doctors and faculty members who happen to be Asian. Even more ironically, those who are now enjoying the economic fruits of these immigrants' labour are now condemning them for pursuing the very dream.

4. I feel the stereotype of the calculus class Chinese kid who has trouble making friends is also true. However, it is also important to realize its historical and social roots. The chinese education system is predicated entirely on standardized tests. Therefore many families who immigrate here raise their children in the same mould, assuming that a narrow minded focus on academics is the sure and only way to success. This behaviour is not beneficial to society and should not be condoned in any ethnicity. In my experience however, these people also don't get very far as the Western system is designed to weed out these people. At top undergrad schools at least, there are a lot of asians, but few of them only know how to study (or play the piano for that matter).
whatever your politics is on immigration and outsourcing, thats none of my business. But I couldn't stand reading *****ic posts spewing racist and xenophobic propaganda.

By the way, I was born in china and immigrated to canada when i was a kid. I now go to undergrad in the states.

Just to add one more thing, I wouldn't advocate so much for British colonialism, or any form of imperialismt for that matter, before you learn a little more history. To get you started, you may want to take a look at the the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the Indian-Pakistan-Kashmir mess, the ethnic violence in Afganistan, the Opium wars in East asia, the Sudan mess, the Congo (as mentioned by someone else), and the Rwandan massacres (although that was Belgian). In fact, almost any place in Africa would be a good place to start.

Excellent post. THANK YOU 🙂
 
Shredder said:
ever checked out mdapplicants.com? just run searches at ivys for sub 30 mcats and sub 3.5 gpas. i know for certain that if i could change one check box on my apps, i could get into every school with recruitment and scholarships. also special cuddling throughout med school. for ppl who dont look like it, theres always the fractional claim. and as for unjust, there are plenty who say the sytem is unjust to them and this makes up for it. ah, politics

the urms do a great job of making political noise though=this situation

edit: those stats were a little bit of a stretch, but not much. some still show up. fool with it and youll see. doh, nm theres an ethnicity search box, that just might be easier.

Mdapps has no cred and even if it was true are there not white people on MDapps with 30 and sub 30 mcats at top 10 schools?? Why don't you do that search?? 🙄
 
Shredder said:
no, im bad at history. but hey, nobody can match up to british imperialism and its long lasting effects


Mmmm. British imperialism was actually good for most modern day countries that were under its hegemony(you are living in one). Don't believe most of what you read about imperialism in Africa, either; it's all been "air-brushed" by the PC agenda. There is strongly directly proportional relationship between the extent and length of imperialism on any African country and on their current development/quality of life.
 
Zuras said:
Mmmm. British imperialism was actually good for most modern day countries that were under its hegemony(you are living in one). Don't believe most of what you read about imperialism in Africa, either; it's all been "air-brushed" by the PC agenda. There is strongly directly proportional relationship between the extent and length of imperialism on any African country and on their current development/quality of life.


Just to clarify, my original post about british imperialism wasn't about whether it was good or bad for such and such country, but to point out how that stupid troll had no right to say white people have never stolen from non white people. That's all.

In regards to this country, yes we wouldn't have America without the british and other european invasions. however, this country only really stepped up AFTER the British and Americans were separated to equate into two nations. Only after independence did the US buy out the midwest lands that belonged to the French and the western part of the nation that belonged to the Mexicans and before that the Spaniards. Hell, even my home state was Spanish territory prior to Americans buying it, not British property.

Then there is to take into account that the U.S. only became a superpower AFTER WWII. Prior to that, we were no where near being as powerful as we are now.

But getting back to my original point, that troll that was on here really needs to assess what the hell he was talking about.
 
Zuras said:
Mmmm. British imperialism was actually good for most modern day countries that were under its hegemony(you are living in one). Don't believe most of what you read about imperialism in Africa, either; it's all been "air-brushed" by the PC agenda. There is strongly directly proportional relationship between the extent and length of imperialism on any African country and on their current development/quality of life.
yes, i am in agreement
 
I just had to reply to the following bigoted statement:

"
quit complaning! no one is reading! The fact is you asians might all major in science but, when was the last time an asian won the noble prize in science?? This proves that even though you guys have taken over(pretty much).You ain't finding anything that is groundbreaking. I would like to add that the guy who makes the great discovery usually finds it by luck and thinking out of the box.. Just b/c you can memorize and crunch numbers does not really mean you can make great discoveries."

As kids many of us probably dreamed of the Nobel prize, just as we dreamed of playing in the NBA or becoming the President. I once asked my dad, who has a pHD in physics, why Gandhi never won the Nobel prize for peace(i know this is different....but the point is the same) Im not glorifying my dad or anything...but what he told me is something i'll always remember: The Nobel prize is not like the Wimbledon trophy or an NBA championship. When you win one of those, your achievement is glorified by the conferrment of the trophy, it is proof that you are great. When one wins the Nobel prize, it is the prize itself that is glorified, because the achievement is ALWAYS far greater than the prize itself. In other words, one is great, and one wins the Nobel prize. Specifically not: one wins the Nobel prize because he is great.

The Nobel prize, though it maintains the image of sanctity and egalitarianism, is inherently biased by its Western foundations. While this is changing(there have been over 12 Asian leaurates in the last 10 years) the process itself is quite slow. More notably than the paucity of Laurates from Asia is the paucity of Nobel's won by residents of 3rd world countries(most countries in Asia besides Japan). Clearly the ability to conduct quality scientific research is directly linked to availability of funds. I can almost guarantee that if Universities in India and China were given the same funds as those in the US, EUrope or Japan, the recognition of Asians in science would rise instantaneously. All of you are at universities. I urge you to count the number if Asian/Indian faculty members. I mean specifically those that have immigrated from their homelands recently. You will certainly find a gross overrepresentaiton of these groups. These are people, who are not just good at numbers, they are conducting research EQUIVALENT to that which SOMETIMES wins the Nobel prize. I am sure that we will see, in time, the gradual rise of Asian and Indian scientists to their rightful places amongst the greatest scientific minds on earth.

By the way this applies equally to those of African and Hispanic heritage,who have been oppressed by an even greater lack of resources than Asians.
 
supermcat said:
By the way this applies equally to those of African and Hispanic heritage,who have been oppressed by an even greater lack of resources than Asians.


True that!
 
this is a really long thread...probably cuz of all these goddamn asians posting. fvcking orms on sdn too. stupid asians...

-friendly neighborhood asian...er...it. 🙂
 
supermcat said:
The Nobel prize, though it maintains the image of sanctity and egalitarianism, is inherently biased by its Western foundations. While this is changing(there have been over 12 Asian leaurates in the last 10 years) the process itself is quite slow. More notably than the paucity of Laurates from Asia is the paucity of Nobel's won by residents of 3rd world countries(most countries in Asia besides Japan). Clearly the ability to conduct quality scientific research is directly linked to availability of funds. I can almost guarantee that if Universities in India and China were given the same funds as those in the US, EUrope or Japan, the recognition of Asians in science would rise instantaneously. All of you are at universities. I urge you to count the number if Asian/Indian faculty members. I mean specifically those that have immigrated from their homelands recently. You will certainly find a gross overrepresentaiton of these groups. These are people, who are not just good at numbers, they are conducting research EQUIVALENT to that which SOMETIMES wins the Nobel prize. I am sure that we will see, in time, the gradual rise of Asian and Indian scientists to their rightful places amongst the greatest scientific minds on earth.

By the way this applies equally to those of African and Hispanic heritage,who have been oppressed by an even greater lack of resources than Asians.

Then why doesn't an asian philanthropist start such a foundation that also recognizes world wide scientific and humanitarian achievements? Would it be more egalitarian?

And, nobody (other than the OP) has questioned the scientific contributions of the Chinese and Indians (not to mention the Japanese and others).
It's TRUE that our institutions of higher learning and research have really come to rely on foreign born Phd's etc. This benefits our county.

Also, the people that go on to become the greatest scientific minds on earth will simply be those with the passion, intelligence, and luck that have always fostered such achievement.
 
funshine said:
Excellent post. THANK YOU 🙂

So true but you are trying to reach the wrong person. He (they actually) will not pay much attention.
 
Shredder said:
all this tango talk is getting awfully convoluted. isnt the point supposed to be that tangoing is a choice that requires the willing consent of two parties. if one is overly enthusiastic about tangoing and trips and falls, he shouldnt get mad at his partner

Trolls are (un)popular posters who have the ability to string any thread beyond eternity. People need to learn how to deal with them. Everyone here dances at his/her own risk. He/she should quit when in doubt. Stay out or learn how to make the thread an enjoyable bout. In other words, you got it right.
 
based on observations, i have come to the conclusion that being an ORM is not so bad if you are female.
 
jtank said:
based on observations, i have come to the conclusion that being an ORM is not so bad if you are female.

Do you really think so? Hmmm. I'm not sure what to think about this.
 
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