Ask the dark side anything

[medic86]

---

Members don't see this ad.

I've seen Miami's scoring metric. I wonder if UM's undergrad program gets max points with the Ivies.

Lol. That's an interesting question.

"Ugh, they went here for undergrad. Let's make it 5 points."

 

[ImmunoLove]

Hmm, what does it take to be a great pianist? Playing the right notes at the right time.

Communing with an application and making a decision involves a lot of work by the frontal lobes. The buzzword (buzzacronym?) is EAM, which stands for Experiences, Attributes, and Metrics. Metrics are easy. You look at the demographic data, PS, and ECs to get a feel for experiences, and the LORs and ECs (and sometimes the PS) to get a feel for attributes. Embedded in everyone's AMCAS are patterns, and it takes some practice to see them.

Good to know re EAM. Re patterns: I can imagine, and as an applicant I'm unbelievably curious (rather, I think my "applicant" mentality hinders my ability to think rationally insofar as patterns are concerned, it seems). Thanks for the insight.

On another note (pun!), I take it you're not a musician. I mean no offense if you are (and I apologize for offending you if I have), but as a pianist myself, I feel hitting the right notes at the right times makes one a reasonable pianist, much like an auto-keyboard is a reasonable "pianist". But what makes a pianist great is not what and when notes are played (maybe necessary, not at all sufficient), but how (and thus why) they are played--passion, pressure, and emphasis is a great divider among pianists. Give me Wilhelm Kempff over an automaton any day, even with the occasional blundering of notes. I think this point is made rather beautifully in Isaac Stern's film "From Mao to Mozart". End tangent.

 

[musicalfeet]

Good to know re EAM. Re patterns: I can imagine, and as an applicant I'm unbelievably curious (rather, I think my "applicant" mentality hinders my ability to think rationally insofar as patterns are concerned, it seems). Thanks for the insight.

On another note (pun!), I take it you're not a musician. I mean no offense if you are (and I apologize for offending you if I have), but as a pianist myself, I feel hitting the right notes at the right times makes one a reasonable pianist, much like an auto-keyboard is a reasonable "pianist". But what makes a pianist great is not what and when notes are played (maybe necessary, not at all sufficient), but how (and thus why) they are played--passion, pressure, and emphasis is a great divider among pianists. Give me Wilhelm Kempff over an automaton any day, even with the occasional blundering of notes. I think this point is made rather beautifully in Isaac Stern's film "From Mao to Mozart". End tangent.

Whatt what about Martha Argerich?! She's a goddess @_@. Especially her Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto. It's one of the only times in my life I wish I were a pianist and not a violinist 😛

 

[ImmunoLove]

Whatt what about Martha Argerich?! She's a goddess @_@. Especially her Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto. It's one of the only times in my life I wish I were a pianist and not a violinist 😛

Well not going to argue with that. She is spectacular. Also, I'm amused by this crossing of the (piano/violin) strings!

 

[Cytarabine]

Sorry, too personal.



I have been fortunate to work in environments where the overarching learning objectives are delineated by people higher up the food chain, and the people in the classroom are given a lot of flexibility in deciding how to achieve them. Student feedback is helpful, but as long as the kids are passing the exams without causing civil unrest then everyone is satisfied.



This data (and more!) exists for a very large cohort: https://www.aamc.org/students/download/267622/data/mcatstudentselectionguide.pdf

The four-year completion rates for everyone with an MCAT >27 and a GPA >3.0 are about the same. Most schools want the flexibility to consider applicants with lower numbers, but they also don't want their class average to drop. Closed review processes have mostly been employed at high power schools where the biggest admissions problem excluding 3.9/38 sociopaths.

Sorry for the overly personal questions, thought it would be alright in an anonymous setting. Hard to get that info elsewhere for that very reason. Appreciate the answers to the others

 

[Terry Toma]

I'm wondering how you and your colleagues view non-trads with low undergrad GPAs, but solid postbach work in the admissions process.

Have you admitted applicants with low GPAs from several years ago (say ~3.0 sGPA and cGPA from 7+ years ago)? If so, what kind of postbach work was necessary to make you and your committee overlook the less than stellar numbers?

 

[nolookpass]

Have you ever contacted a contact number (or email) listed under an activity or tried to get more contact information regarding an activity?

Shout out to @METTA WORLD PEACE

 

[Med Ed]

What separates the students who pass their step 1 tests and those that don't pass?

Fortunately, the cohort of students I am familiar with who did not pass Step 1 is rather small. One person had essentially memorized First Aid, but did almost no practice tests (getting questions wrong freaked him out). When he sat for the exam he was not used to applying the information in his head, and he went down in flames. On the second try he prepped with one or two Q-banks and his final passing score was near the mean.

The other big mistake I have seen are slow studiers who take it too early. Most students can be ready in four weeks or less, but some need six or more. I'm sure there are many more ways to fail, though. If you find yourself barely passing every M1/M2 exam then you need to self-evaluate, because your study methods aren't working as well as they could.

 

[Med Ed]

How do you, personally, view an applicant with children?

With one or both eyes.

Are there specific circumstances where an applicant having children is seen as an advantage? What about a disadvantage?

It's sort of beyond our purview to consider the presence of children. Students manage all sorts of obligations outside of school.

 

[Med Ed]

1) Opinion on applicants with expunged misdemeanor/felony when they were under 18?
2) 3 best characteristic traits that an applicant should have?
3) Key to happiness?

1) I don't think expunged convictions show up on Certiphi, especially for underage charges. Arrests might. If it has been expunged then it has been expunged.
2) Nice, diligent, invested in self-improvement through reflection.
3) Having a good attitude. There are some negative people in every field. Stay away from them. There are happy people in every field. Bask in their reflected joy.

 

[Med Ed]

On another note (pun!), I take it you're not a musician. I mean no offense if you are (and I apologize for offending you if I have), but as a pianist myself, I feel hitting the right notes at the right times makes one a reasonable pianist, much like an auto-keyboard is a reasonable "pianist". But what makes a pianist great is not what and when notes are played (maybe necessary, not at all sufficient), but how (and thus why) they are played--passion, pressure, and emphasis is a great divider among pianists. Give me Wilhelm Kempff over an automaton any day, even with the occasional blundering of notes. I think this point is made rather beautifully in Isaac Stern's film "From Mao to Mozart". End tangent.

No offense taken, but this was the point of my rather obtuse piano reference. I can tell you the process of how applications are screened, but I cannot capture the cognitive nuances with a few dry words.

 

[Med Ed]

Sorry for the overly personal questions, thought it would be alright in an anonymous setting. Hard to get that info elsewhere for that very reason. Appreciate the answers to the others

No sweat.

 

[Med Ed]

I'm wondering how you and your colleagues view non-trads with low undergrad GPAs, but solid postbach work in the admissions process.

Have you admitted applicants with low GPAs from several years ago (say ~3.0 sGPA and cGPA from 7+ years ago)? If so, what kind of postbach work was necessary to make you and your committee overlook the less than stellar numbers?

You mean postbacc? Because postbach describes the period from July 29, 1750 until today.

But seriously, a solid performance in a postbacc goes a long way toward hitting the reset button on one's less-than-stellar undergrad performance. The catch is that not all postbaccs are created equal, and some are a lot less rigorous than others. If you do badly in a postbacc then you are essentially cooked, so don't start one until you are ready to move beyond past academic sins.

 

[Med Ed]

Have you ever contacted a contact number (or email) listed under an activity or tried to get more contact information regarding an activity?

Shout out to @METTA WORLD PEACE

Personally, no, although we are planning to audit some percentage of these activities going forward.

 

[radicleee]

Once you've matriculated students, do you still think about their applications and compare their growth to what you originally thought of them as the years go by? How hard/easy is this to do?

 

[Terry Toma]

You mean postbacc? Because postbach describes the period from July 29, 1750 until today.

But seriously, a solid performance in a postbacc goes a long way toward hitting the reset button on one's less-than-stellar undergrad performance. The catch is that not all postbaccs are created equal, and some are a lot less rigorous than others. If you do badly in a postbacc then you are essentially cooked, so don't start one until you are ready to move beyond past academic sins.

I actually completed my undergraduate degree in 1750, so I refer to any coursework thereafter as my postbach work. I'm older than I look, but feel that my centuries of life experience make me a well rounded applicant.

Good to hear. I am just starting do-it-yourself postbacc work (doing well so far, but only ~half a semester in). I have a bit of fear that after completing a bunch of A level work, adcoms will just way "I have 2,000 applications from people who got it right the first time, your app is going in the trash." I'm sure many will take that view, but it's good to have some confirmation that I can "hit the reset button," so to speak.

 

[OpieFromMayberry]

Are you going to look at my high MCAT score (40) or my red flag first?

 

[nolookpass]

Personally, no, although we are planning to audit some percentage of these activities going forward.

Thanks. Seems like a lot of work/phone calls/emails.

 

[AnotherLawyer]

Thanks for doing one of these threads.

How much slack, if any, do you cut in the EC department for non-trads with full time careers, families, etc. For example, assume you like to see X hours of clinical volunteering for a non-working applicant coming straight from undergrad. If your next applicant works full time in a fairly demanding field and has a family as well, would you be satisfied with X/2 hours? Using actual numbers would probably be most helpful. Thanks!

 

[Hospitalized]

You mean postbacc? Because postbach describes the period from July 29, 1750 until today.

But seriously, a solid performance in a postbacc goes a long way toward hitting the reset button on one's less-than-stellar undergrad performance. The catch is that not all postbaccs are created equal, and some are a lot less rigorous than others. If you do badly in a postbacc then you are essentially cooked, so don't start one until you are ready to move beyond past academic sins.

I spit out my water. I hope I get to meet you in person one day.

 

[Med Ed]

Once you've matriculated students, do you still think about their applications and compare their growth to what you originally thought of them as the years go by? How hard/easy is this to do?

Our Dean of Students does mine this data, but the output is usually "Don't ever take a student from _ College again."

 

[Med Ed]

Are you going to look at my high MCAT score (40) or my red flag first?

Depends on the size of the flag.

 

[Med Ed]

Thanks. Seems like a lot of work/phone calls/emails.

We will probably just do it in between the admissions committee voting to accept and the actual acceptance letter going out, so it won't be everyone in the pool. If we go a couple of years and don't find much then the interest might wain. If we find all sorts of discrepancies, that will probably lead us to expend more energy investigating applications.

I do wish that AMCAS would limit ECs to about five, so applicants would focus more on quality. Heck, I'd be happy with three.

 

[Med Ed]

Thanks for doing one of these threads.

How much slack, if any, do you cut in the EC department for non-trads with full time careers, families, etc.

Quite a bit here. We have careers, families, etc. We know.

 

[sharkbyte]

How much clinical experience in your opinion is deemed "sufficient" for that applicant to know what the medical field is like? I always get worried because I don't have longevity associated with my clinical experiences - I spent two summers volunteering and one summer shadowing - but I was doing a lot more than the standard 3 hrs/week and did a lot more in a short amount of time (i.e. two month spans).

 

[nolookpass]

We will probably just do it in between the admissions committee voting to accept and the actual acceptance letter going out, so it won't be everyone in the pool. If we go a couple of years and don't find much then the interest might wain. If we find all sorts of discrepancies, that will probably lead us to expend more energy investigating applications.

I do wish that AMCAS would limit ECs to about five, so applicants would focus more on quality. Heck, I'd be happy with three.

Got it and it makes sense. I asked because someone had this issue recently on here so I was curious. Also, personally I possibly have a job lined up where I wouldn't want the head to know I'm applying to med school (or else I wouldn't get the job), so I'm in a slight predicament. This seems common. Also, people have fallen out with their contacts even if they've done the necessary hours etc, so they worry the contact may say negative things (also seems common here).

 

[Med Ed]

How much clinical experience in your opinion is deemed "sufficient" for that applicant to know what the medical field is like? I always get worried because I don't have longevity associated with my clinical experiences - I spent two summers volunteering and one summer shadowing - but I was doing a lot more than the standard 3 hrs/week and did a lot more in a short amount of time (i.e. two month spans).

This is an area where I feel different adcoms vary quite a bit, but the bar for "sufficient" is probably a lot lower than many on SDN would guess. Clinical exposure is desirable because we want applicants to have a reasonable idea of what they are getting themselves into. Beyond that, simply adding more hours doesn't really do much to enhance the overall package. We also have to take into account that the opportunities for clinical experience are dramatically different from one applicant to the next. Shadowing isn't always easy to come by, nor are decent volunteer gigs in our liability/HIPAA-obsessed world.

 

[Med Ed]

Got it and it makes sense. I asked because someone had this issue recently on here so I was curious. Also, personally I possibly have a job lined up where I wouldn't want the head to know I'm applying to med school (or else I wouldn't get the job), so I'm in a slight predicament. This seems common. Also, people have fallen out with their contacts even if they've done the necessary hours etc, so they worry the contact may say negative things (also seems common here).

I do not think that we would contact a current employer without permission. Given my prior experience checking references, I anticipate that auditing other activities will be an extremely dry endeavor. Contrary to every premed's worst fears, this is not an excuse to gossip. Sometimes all you can drag out is that Person X was at Place Y from date Z to date Z'.

 

[RaspberrySlushy]

Is volunteering overseas always looked down upon? I've seen it said a lot on SDN and I'm curious if that attitude applies only to "medical missions" trips or all volunteering abroad?

 

[Med Ed]

Is volunteering overseas always looked down upon? I've seen it said a lot on SDN and I'm curious if that attitude applies only to "medical missions" trips or all volunteering abroad?

"Always" is a strong word. What we are trying to avoid are the applicants who parents whip out a credit card and go on http://www.projects-abroad.org/prices/ to get junior some medical experience.

 

[RaspberrySlushy]

Oh okay, that makes perfect sense, thanks! My experience that I was concerned about was so different from that scenario.

 

[I'mJustCurious]

1. Do you think there's a big difference between an A and a B?
2. Do you think people with expunged records should be able to practice medicine?
3. What are some characteristic traits that you see of students that foreshadow that they aren't cut for medicine?
4. What are some habits that lead to students succeeding in school?

 

[goldy490]

Thanks for doing this!

When you see an applicant with a Low GPA/High MCAT (lets say a 3.3/36), what do you think? Are there other things you look for in an app in this case?

 

[ugagrad1116]

And to add to magagna's question, what makes the difference between a waitlisted student and an accepted student after an interview? Especially if that applicant was interviewed early. Is there something an applicant could do better so that he/she could be accepted instead of being waitlisted? Or to maximize chances of acceptance?

 

[Med Ed]

1. Do you think there's a big difference between an A and a B?
2. Do you think people with expunged records should be able to practice medicine?
3. What are some characteristic traits that you see of students that foreshadow that they aren't cut for medicine?
4. What are some habits that lead to students succeeding in school?

1. Already getting a headache.
2. Sure, why not?
3. Ask me in 10 years.
4. I think I answered something similar earlier in this thread.

 

[Med Ed]

Thanks for doing this!

When you see an applicant with a Low GPA/High MCAT (lets say a 3.3/36), what do you think? Are there other things you look for in an app in this case?

First thing to consider is the rigor of the undergraduate institution/major. Second is the course load. Third are mitigating factors, like working 20+ hours per week or being a high level collegiate athlete. I don't think a 3.3 is that low. Try 2.8.

 

[Med Ed]

And to add to magagna's question, what makes the difference between a waitlisted student and an accepted student after an interview? Especially if that applicant was interviewed early. Is there something an applicant could do better so that he/she could be accepted instead of being waitlisted? Or to maximize chances of acceptance?

The best thing you can do is something you have no control over, which is get paired with an interviewer who really clicks with you. That person will go to bat for you in committee. Regardless, the simple rules of interviews are to smile (but not too much), make eye contact (but not too much), nod approvingly (but not too much), and practice your answers to common questions (but not too much). Over-prep and you come off as scripted. Don't keep trying to steer the conversation back to things you want to highlight. That's really annoying. Most schools accept a fairly high proportion of people they interview, so you don't have to be on the top of the heap. Want to stand out? Show you can act like a normal person in a slightly uncomfortable situation.

 

[Med Ed]

What is the general post-interview process like for admission committees when making final decisions (accept/waitlist/reject) on interviewees?

Could you be more specific?

 

[ugagrad1116]

The best thing you can do is something you have no control over, which is get paired with an interviewer who really clicks with you. That person will go to bat for you in committee. Regardless, the simple rules of interviews are to smile (but not too much), make eye contact (but not too much), nod approvingly (but not too much), and practice your answers to common questions (but not too much). Over-prep and you come off as scripted. Don't keep trying to steer the conversation back to things you want to highlight. That's really annoying. Most schools accept a fairly high proportion of people they interview, so you don't have to be on the top of the heap. Want to stand out? Show you can act like a normal person in a slightly uncomfortable situation.

Okay, thank you! That was helpful. Thanks for taking the time to answer all of our questions.

 

[integrin]

1) I was skeptical of PBL, having being educated in a traditional lecture-based curriculum, but this approach has convinced me of its worth. About the only pure PBL school left in the country is SIU, everyone else uses it as one tool of many. Not every student likes it, but you cannot please everyone. And in the last quarter of each semester nobody is happy with anything.

2) Critical thinking skills still lack, and the ability to answer your own questions through self-directed research.

3) People feel unprepared because they have never shouldered that level of responsibility before. One good approach is to not go on de facto vacation in the second half of M4. Take some challenging sub-I's and work your tail off.

I'm pretty sure Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine uses a purely PBL pre-clinical curriculum as well.

 

[steelersfan1243]

If an interviewee talked too fast and mumbled when saying his answers, as well as sometimes could not clearly explain what he meant, would this be an automatic rejection? What if he was able to hold a conversation once the "formal" interview was over? Showing that the "interview setting" makes him for whatever reason be a terrible communicator. Asking for a friend.....

 

[Mad Jack]

Dear Diary, I learned that I am not impressive today... 🙁

In all seriousness, this reminds me of a previous thread about selling oneself during the interview. Strangely, it calms me down a bit.
I don't have to be the most impressive candidate; I just have to convince adcom that I am better than NotASerialKiller

@NotASerialKiller actually seems like the kind of guy that'd interview well. Many of the other people on SDN, on the other hand...

This really comes back to what many adcoms and much of the wisdom around here has been preaching for years: once you're at the interview, it's your spot to lose. They already like you, just don't bomb it.

 

[Med Ed]

I'm pretty sure Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine uses a purely PBL pre-clinical curriculum as well.

Nah. "Teaching methods focus on interactive learning and applying knowledge through problem-based learning (PBL), seminars, problem sets, electronic-based curriculum and labs. Formal lectures are few and discouraged."

 

[Med Ed]

How would you view an applicant post-interview with a <3.3 sgpa, 28 MCAT, great LORs, excellent ECs ? URM, 1st gen student

Need some more details on the <3.3 sGPA. Are we talking a 3.2 or a 2.8? Major? Rigor of undegrad institution? Mitigating factors (e.g. working 20 hours/week)?

The 28 MCAT doesn't bother me at all. This setup does, however, make me wonder why if this applicant shouldn't have focused more on the GPA and less on the ECs. Regardless, a 1st generation URM with a 28 and a clue should find some love somewhere.

 

[Med Ed]

If an interviewee talked too fast and mumbled when saying his answers, as well as sometimes could not clearly explain what he meant, would this be an automatic rejection? What if he was able to hold a conversation once the "formal" interview was over? Showing that the "interview setting" makes him for whatever reason be a terrible communicator. Asking for a friend.....

Self-perception is woefully inaccurate. The effect on your candidacy, if any, is impossible to determine. Either way, what's done is done. You are best served by figuring out how to improve your performance next time.

 

[Petrichor1]

1) I stopped being impressed by interviews awhile ago. The best you can do is convince me that you're probably not autistic or a psychopath.
2) Make Step 1 pass/fail and decouple board passage rates from residency program evaluations. This would facilitate medical schools choosing applicants they want rather than applicants they need.
3) Depends on the school. Some are very proactive about training and standardizing their interviewers. Those are relatively fair. The rest are basically a crapshoot.
4) Nice, inquisitive, nice, punctual, nice, strong work ethic, nice, organized, and nice. By nice I mean nicer than me, which isn't very difficult.

very much agree with your #4. If everyone in medicine would follow #4, I don't think it would take a lot of money to draw people to this field. Alas...

 

[goldy490]

Thanks again for doing this! This question may be beyond your scope so feel free to ignore it if so...

How much does selecting a med school influence future ability to pursue a given speciality? ie. Does selecting a lower tier med school over a very good, established one, limit ones ability to pursue a very competitive speciality (Like derm or ortho)?

 

[Med Ed]

3.25 , biomedical sciences, very large public institution in FL. Strong upward trend in senior year and into post bacc.

If you apply strategically, don't have any red flags (like an IA), and interview half decently, you should have an excellent shot. In addition to all the FL schools, I would target some geographically diverse private medical schools where your metrics are hitting about the 10th percentile or above. Some of them will probably be receptive, especially if their current URM enrollment is low.

 

[BphysDoc]

Are you excited about the new Star Wars movie? How's the dark side doing nowadays?

 

[Med Ed]

How much does selecting a med school influence future ability to pursue a given speciality? ie. Does selecting a lower tier med school over a very good, established one, limit ones ability to pursue a very competitive speciality (Like derm or ortho)?

This is one of the oldest debates on SDN. The short answer is that "lower tier" medical schools churn out derm and ortho matches every year, so be not afraid.

The longer answer is that despite the tendency to see higher ranked schools as being better in every way than lower ranked schools, reality is far more complex and defiant of such simple categorization. The biggest asset you can have as a medical student is an attending who takes and interest in your education, spends the time necessary to further your development, and goes to bat for you in the match. The good news is that people like that exist in all fields and in all medical schools. The bad news is that you won't see them until you matriculate and it's too late to change course.